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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:29 AM
Original message
E-mail from a recent convert, or, what the average American may be thinking
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 07:38 AM by wyldwolf
I've not seen her or spoken to her in 15 years but an old friend of mine found me on Facebook. "Alyson" grew up in a very religious and Republican household. Although she knew I was a Democrat so many years ago, we never spoke much of politics and religion because she would get a wee bit upset. In the 15 years since we've talked, I've gotten more and more involved with the Party on a local and state level. When we sent each other our "catch up" e-mails, I included that involvement, quite sure it would at least raise an eyebrow. In fact, a week passed without a reply and I was certain she was off somewhere praying for me.

Did I have a surprise waiting in my inbox this morning!

I am really worried about the economy. Things are getting so bad. I hope Obama can straighten it out like Bill Clinton did (yes, I believe that now!)

Bush screwed up everything. Obama has to repair so many things that Bush destroyed. He just about alienated the US from all other countries. Obama has to repair the damage.

I am glad he went to the summit in London this week. I hope progress was made to be friendly with other countries again. It is too funny to me that people in France were excited to see him.

I know the British have not been fond of americans for quite a while because of Bush. Tony Blair was allies with Bush and joined the US in the Iraq war and got England involved. The british resented it, so they hated americans.

I can go on and on about how much I hate Bush. Such an asshole. He had a bad case of little man syndrome.


There you have it. Obama represents the hope and dreams of so many Americans and people the world over. Too bad there are right wing and left wing armchair economists taking pot shots at him.


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JayMusgrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Always good to readt this kind of story. THANKS!! n/t
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ah Yes - Clinton's Support Abolishing The Glass-Steagall Act Is Really Helping Now
eom
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Wait For It...
Within moments, Wyld will claim there's no evidence that Glass-Steagall harmed anyone, or that it helped the Middle Class, or some other amazing thing.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Or maybe that just because the act was abolished, does not mean
that there should have been zero oversight by congress, and tweaking of regulations where needed. Just saying. There was nothing to stop congress from doing their job other than their decision to do nothing. You can't blame Bill for thzt.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. That Is A Cop Out Answer Knowing How Dysfunctional Congress Has Been For The Last Decade
eom
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. So, Clinton was supposed to know that congress would be dysfunctional..
once he was no longer president? Maybe he should have known. I still contend that it is disengenuous to blame Clinton for the failure of the bush admin. and congress to do their jobs.
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. You cannot reason....
...with anyone who has been afflicted with Clinton Fever. It is a condition that, although manageable at times, is always present, and takes little prodding to manifest itself. There is no known cure. Thanks.
quickesst
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. I'm no Clinton apologist. But Clinton just is not responsible for what
happens once he is out of office. No law is so set in stone that it cannot be repealed or amended by the subsequent administration. Duh.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Oh No - Read This Article - You Might Change Your Mind - Gramm-Leach-Billey Act
Could there ever have been a more Republican thing to do?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/KD02Dj03.html

Snip ...

During those last 18 months of Bill Clinton's administration, as the old fox celebrated his escape from the baying hounds of impeachment, he basically put "For Sale" signs on his entire economic policy. In November 1999, Congress passed, and Clinton signed, the Gramm-Leach-Billey Act, repealing the 1933 Glass Steagall Act, which had previously maintained explicit corporate firewalls between investment and commercial banking. That led to a wave of financial system mergers and agglomerations that was the first step in the creation of the giant "too big to fail" wounded banking behemoths that so trouble our world today. Then, in the closing hours of his administration came the president's signature on the 2000 Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which, as if it were possible, put up an even bigger "NO TRESPASSING" sign in-between the CFTC and OTC derivatives.

In all these legislative deregulatory efforts championed by Rubin's Treasury et al, the legislation was shepherded through the Congress not by a northeastern elite school Democratic liberal, but by ultra-conservative Texas Republican Phil Gramm, with his Phd from the University of Georgia.

Gramm called the Glass-Steagall repeal an event that "will keep our markets modern, efficient and innovative, and it guarantees that the United States will maintain its global dominance of financial markets".

Snip ...
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. That may be so. I agree that the act should not have been repealed..
But perhaps if Congress and bushco had been doing their jobs, they would have seen the mistake and taken corrective actions. That's all I'm saying.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Clinton Signed The Bill! - Not Bush!
eom
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. a veto-proof one. How many times has a president NOT signed such a bill?
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Does Not Change The Outcome - Your Point Is Pointless Once Again!
eom
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. exactly, whether it was signed or not, the outcome is the same. Your point is pointless once again!
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. The point is he signed it
Signed it in the bloody Rose Garden at that. If he was so against the bill he could have vetoed it veto proof majority or not and he certainly didn't have to have the ceremony for the bill signing. You cannot argue that he was against the bill but signed it anyway while having a ceremony for the bill signing. Well you can argue it but you wouldn't make any damn sense while making that argument. If Clinton was really against the bill he wouldn't have signed it. Period end of story.

So your argument has no merit whatsoever.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. that isn't the point
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 07:40 PM by wyldwolf
1. The Republicans controlled the Congress.
2. There was a significant difference between the original Senate and House versions
3. The Senate was deeply divided on the original version on a 54-44 party line vote.
4. The House was not so divided on its version, voting 343-86, so many Democrats voted for it.
5. The bill went into Conference and it was the Conference Report version that was eventually approved, 90-8-1 in the Senate, Democrats agreed to support the bill only after Republicans agreed to strengthen provisions of the Community Reinvestment Act, basically erasing Democratic opposition, and 362-57-15 in the House, making some small gains in Democratic support.
6. It was a veto proof vote.
7. It was signed on November 1999. Bills of this complexity usually take several months to become effective and several years because the implementation needs to be worked out.

Why don't we go back to actual media reports of the day and see what happened in regards to Bill Clinton (bold and comments in parenthesis mine :) )

The deal was announced about 2 A.M. after a compromise was reached over the measure's effect on lending rules for the disadvantaged, the source of months of partisan bickering between the White House and Senator Phil Gramm, the Texas Republican who heads the banking committee.

It concludes decades of attempts to rewrite banking laws to catch up with a marketplace that has already experienced broad consolidations and the rise of financial conglomerates offering bank and brokerage accounts as well as insurance. …

While the measure is likely to enjoy broad bipartisan support (that means bunches of Democrats supported it), it has also been criticized. Some lawmakers and privacy groups say the legislation does not adequately protect consumers and will allow financial companies to share and sell private information about customer accounts. Other critics worry about the further consolidation of the financial services industry. …

The breakthrough in Friday's legislation came in a backroom meeting at the Capitol soon after midnight, when a group of moderate Senate Democrats -- led by Christopher Dodd of Connecticut and Charles E. Schumer of New York -- forced a compromise between Gramm and the White House (that was Bill Clinton) over the legislation's effect on the Community Reinvestment Act, a 1977 anti-discrimination law intended to encourage lending to minorities and others historically denied access to credit.

(WAIT! Chris Dodd, who KOS, posters on DU, and elseswhere claimed was such a gooood "progressive" forced a compromise with Clinton and the GOP! Say it ain't so! And what was that evil Bill Clinton doing protecting minorities!! The horror!)

Dodd, whose state is home to the nation's largest insurance companies, and Schumer, with strong ties to Wall Street, have long sought legislation to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act. Both men said in interviews Friday that they moved to strike a compromise after it became apparent that the legislation might be killed (by Bill Clinton), as it was last year by Gramm, over the debate about the Community Reinvestment Act.

But the White House found that provision unacceptable and had its own ideas about community lending. It wanted the legislation to prevent any bank with an unsatisfactory record of making loans to the disadvantaged from expanding into new areas, like insurance or securities.

(Bill Clinton wanted THAT progressive piece of legislation?? And he GOT IT?? Wait! "Progressives" didn't tell me that!!!)

When Gramm's measure was defeated by one vote, it quickly became clear that there would be no law unless Gramm could get some Democrats to break from the White House.

But Administration officials had spent all day making sure that the Democrats remained solidly against the measure until their concerns about the Community Reinvestment Act could be worked out

(Oh, ok, so Gramm was working to get enough Democratic votes to make this sucker veto proof, and Clinton marshalled enough Democrats to hold out until his concerns about the Community Reinvestment Act could be worked out in a Bill that was going to be veto proof! Imagine that!)

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/financial/102399banks-congress.html


So what do we see in that article? That the White House had been pushing back on this act for months. That certain Congressional Dems, Dodd and Schumer foremost, explicitly wanted to kill Glass-Steagall. That the White House fought them as well as Gramm on this issue. That the White House rallied Democrats to present a solid front to the measure, requiring that the Community Reinvestment Act be protected, which some Congressional Dems were just as happy to toss out along with all other protections.

Think back to earlier in this article when I pointed out what the votes were for this Act. This bill was barely opposed by Congress except for the language in the Senate version to kill the CRA. When Gramm backed down on that, there was overwhelming support. The vote was veto-proof. If Clinton had vetoed it, with a Republican controlled Congress and a majority of Democrats behind it, he would have been very publically rebuked by his own party in the form of an over-ride. It would have given the Republicans another arrow for the “anti-business Democrats” quiver.

Now, remember back to the discussion about the CRA and how long it took after passage to make it effective. The GLBA, a far more complex act, was signed in November of 1999. In 2000, we were looking forward to Gore’s election. This Act would have been implemented under Gore’s supervision, the wonk to beat all wonks. Thus, when Bush took over in 2001, and an entirely new form of financial services industry was charging forward, there was no attempt or interest in providing substantive policies and regulations to prevent exploitation of its provisions. Nope, we were playing by Enron Rules. This Act is the Republicans’ baby, passed with the enthusiastic support of Congressional democrats who would not even have cared about the CRA provisions if Bill Clinton has not told them he would veto it without those protections.

Thus, GLBA was yet another episode in spineless Democrats capitulating to, oh, excuse me, acting in bipartisan accord with greed-head Republicans, and then blaming Clinton for signing what they strongly supported (and "progressives," being the political novices that they are) are more than willing to see this in black/white thinking - which is why the progressive movement has never won power.

When "progressives" are forced to confront the inconvenient truth that it passed with a veto-proof majority, you take the really odd approach that Clinton did nothing to stop it or the even weirder nit pic that he smiled when he signed it. :eyes:

But in that Times piece we see the White House had been pushing back on this act for months. That certain Congressional Dems, Dodd and Schumer foremost, explicitly wanted to kill Glass-Steagall. That the White House fought them as well as Gramm on this issue. That the White House rallied Democrats to present a solid front to the measure, requiring that the Community Reinvestment Act be protected, which some Congressional Dems were just as happy to toss out along with all other protections.

So, as usual, when the facts are layed out and the history is examined, "progressives" find themselves on the wrong side of the truth. And to top it all off, leading up to the general election "progressives" like YOU were spreading the filthy lie that a DEMOCRAT caused this bad economy. Y'all always did try to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Thank GOD you failed.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Whatever. Somebody wants to be dense on purpose. nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Help me understand your logic. Just because Clinton signed a deregulation bill
that the republiCons wanted is ok because if he hadn't, it would have been passed in the bush admin anyway. Did i get that right. There is no excuse for Clinton supporting the republiCons. He knew what he was doing. By 1999 the republiCons owned him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. Wow!
:wow:
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
8. Does the GOP own the monopoly on "i'm gonna act like a baby if you dont agree with me" hissies?
Sorry, I know that's not the point of your post and I applaud your friend for keeping an open mind but the part about "we never spoke much of politics and religion because she would get a wee bit upset." reminded me of problems I have with some of my GOP friends.

I admin another message board that has NOTHING to do with politics, but there's a part of the board were we talked a great deal about the election .... as some may have noticed, I'm a bit fond of Barack Obama (ha!) and, subsequently, some of the Repub. members haven't posted much since the campaign. We almost NEVER EVER NEVER EVER talk about politics, yet they're using Barack Obama ... or my affection for him ... as an excuse not to post.

I've even had a Republican-turned Obama fan friend of mine chastise me for being a little fervent with my support (and this woman was very active in her local campaign.)

Conversely, a PUMA friend of mine debate politics all the time and never let it become an issue. It just seems like some GOP folks have this attitude that if you say something that they disagree with, they aren't emotionally capable of handling any disagreement and instead stick their heads in the sand.

I dont get it.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. well, look at some of the non-Obama supporters on DU...
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 08:20 AM by wyldwolf
they, too, aren't emotionally capable of handling any disagreement and instead stick their heads in the sand (or else they accuse you of trying to "shut them down.")
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Voted For And Contributed To Obama - Does That Mean I Wave The Right To Criticize Him
Or, equally importantly, his blind and willful supporters!
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
42. lol, but the very fact that they ARE posting here helps prove my point...
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 06:41 PM by Clio the Leo
.... unlike my GOP friends who start whigging out if I dare mention the President's name. It's not like they want to DEBATE the matter with me, that would be fine. But instead I have to refer to him as "that man I'm not supposed to talk about." A remark that always meets complete silence. lol
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. I hope there are more of those than ones like my co-worker.
He's an independent and supported and voted for Obama, but he somehow decided that Obama is "screwing everything up" now.

I think he's probably more of a mushy-middle, follow-the-M$M's-lead kind of guy than an independent.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Please close the ideological loop with her -- it wasn't Bush it was republicanism/conservatism
It's too easy to let them believe that Bush screwed things up. You need to go further with her and help her understand that the catastrophic effects of the Bush years were the logical result of his republican and conservative ideology.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. What other kind of economists are their beside archair ones? :D
I'm just saying.

Are their "Action" Economists, a la Eddie Izzard? :D
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. the ones educated in the subject and are gettng paid for it.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Ah. Well be careful, that's probably a bigger group of people than you think
:)
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I'm quite certain there are none hanging out on DU
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ah. Well good for you. I've learned not to be certain bout much of anything.
:)
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
15. PS - so much hatin in this thread. Hug it out people.
:)
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Awww...
:grouphug: I'm down.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. No - We Have Two Sides - Those That Point Out Facts - Those That Choose Not To Acknowledge Them
The fact that Clinton enabled the current financial crisis is a fact of public record.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. and those who make an erroneous claims then squeal in pain when someone asks for proof - like you.
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 10:04 AM by wyldwolf
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. And Those That Badger Incessantly Like You - I Am Now Alerting
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. alert away!
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Alert Sent - Thanks For Making My Day!
eom
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. you're welcome! So, show us where it's "widely accepted Clinton was the best Republican president"
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 10:30 AM by wyldwolf
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
28. So talk me down here...
As far as I can see, perhaps except for science, Obama is carrying, perhaps with some modification, the policies of his predecessors. In education, health care, military, foreign policy, trade, and religion, I have yet to detect any serious departure from Bush and Clinton. His style and delivery are much better, but that may not be a good thing if he doesn't implement some policy reform.

I voted for him in the primary and the general, and I cheer his success on the world stage, but where is the change?

--imm
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
36. challenge for lostnotforgotten: Provide proof that it's "widely accepted Bill Clinton was the...
Edited on Sun Apr-05-09 10:30 AM by wyldwolf
.. best Republican president ever" beyond Malloyites.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. Bill's not even close to best!
Best Republican presidents:

1) Teddy Roosevelt
2) Lincoln
3) Eisenhower
4) Bill Clinton

Ha!
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
38. Bill was always a friend to business but he didn't do more than virtually anyone
else in his position and time to create this mess. In fact if Sanders or Kucinich were President the same bill would have passed, I grant those gentlemen wouldn't have signed but it would still be the law of land in any event.

Bring down the idol of St Ronnie, Clinton is at most small potatoes in this and likely a servant of the general view of his constituents and more so locked into a nearly set path. Bring down Reagan and we undo a generation's worth of dangerous stupidity. Clinton's greatest sins are in trade, hammer away there but the deregulation is the result of a massive and systemic commitment to a set of lies and foolish ideas not the signing of a bill passed by super majority.
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. Great post. I think the ebb and flow contrast
of how we lived under Clinton, how we lived under Bush and now, what Obama is trying to do will provide many converts for months to come.

The contrast is too drastic for a thinking, conscious person not to notice.

I love personal anecdotes like this.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
41. The economist couldn't wait to pounce..
and everyone of them has a different opinion. All of these armchair pundits have so much to say on and off radio and tv but non of them could even take an inch of what President Obama had to go through to get where he is today. None of them don't or can't see what he has before him on his desk day after day and none of them are dealing with these people in the background who are trying challenge,persuade,threaten,provoke our president to do their bidding in many ways.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
44. Even the previously blind can now see. We elected a good guy
and I have every hope that things will start to improve. He did inherit a complete mess and I'm glad he's the one charged with fixing it. Thanks for sharing this email.
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Snarkoleptic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
46. k&r
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
47. Super!
:thumbsup:

And just to think, there are millions of Americans who have awakened to see Bush for the wretched man he is. It's better that people came to this realization late, than never at all. At least now we have a fighting chance to repair the damage.

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. I've had the same experience with my neighbor
who spent the entire election season making racist jokes about Obama -

He surprised me by saying he hoped the stimulus worked and that anything was better than "that stupid fucker who sat on his ass the last four years and did nothing."

Really surprising.


---------


Who are these left wing "armchair economists" you speak of? I've seen two Nobel Prize winning economists, plus several other economists of good reputation from the left side of the spectrum with, what I felt, anyway, some damn credible criticisms of Obama's economic policies.

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