Is anyone else bloody tired of arguing about the Vietnam War?

[WilliamPitt]

I mean absolutely no offense to those here and elsewhere who have busted their asses running down Swift Boat refutations and specs on typewriters from 1936. But I must confess: I simply cannot get worked up about Bush's National Guard record with all the other things we're dealing with. I've tried, but I honestly don't give a good damn about it.

This is the dumbest election in the history of the universe, and this Guard crap is merely a craptactical tenticle stretching out from the maw.

No beef. Not important. 1,015 dead guys. Plus 20,000 other dead guys. No WMDs. Blown CIA agents. Chalabi. Abu Ghraib. Et-frikkin-cetera. I'm so bloody sick of debating campaign issues that all stem from television commercials.

[BurtWorm]

1. I think the Bushists will not be able to avoid the meat of the election

for much longer. But gods, they are trying!

[AuntPatsy]

2. Absoultely NOT, the line has been crossed and the comparrisons

to Iraq becoming the same muddled up catastropic (bushies own word) mess is fast becoming another Nam, and Kerry's harsh criticism of that war should be seen for what it was....

THE TRUTH!

We have to stop our soldiers from dying in as great a number as Nam, ignoring such will only allow history to repeat its most dreadful secrets...

[ArkDem]

42. What secrets?

[cheshire]

3. Who is talking about it but you. I haven't heard anything but SBV ads and

they are just lame.

[WilliamPitt]

4. Not sure what you mean

[Skittles]

5. SICK OF IT

I am concerned about what is going on in Iraq, the economy, our futures; I am sick of hearing about what did or did not happen 35 years ago.

[hlthe2b]

6. If we were really arguing the Vietnam War, then the comparisons with

the Iraqi misadventure would be absolutely inescapable and clear-- even to the least informed of the US populace. If we were truly arguing the Vietnam War, the valor inherent in Kerry's anti-war stance following the war would be clear and the Swift Boat Lies would have gone nowhere.

We are not arguing the Vietnam War, but manufactured issues that are at best tangential to that war and presented through the Karl "Roverized" spectrum. That's the problem. A signifcant percentage of Americans do not remember the Vietnam War and are thus open to manipulation by others....The REpugs and the media are exploiting that.

[Mick Knox]

7. It is the Twilight Zone Campaign

I cannot even put my finger completely how terrible this campaign truely is. * has lead Kerry and the DNC around like they are a bunch of bubble gummers. I am depressed tonight.

[AuntPatsy]

9. Cheer up! Bush has not honestly done a thing? As far as

leading Kerry around anywhere, I sincerely doubt he could do more than nudge him with his kickers on not even fazing Kerry, naw it is the medai who likes to think they are controlling the outcome of this election, how about finding a way to put a bee in thier bonnet instead of worrying about Bush....

He is only still hanging by a thread because of the media and the media alone, now we have Olberman, and Dan Rather, hopefull Dan will come through and put a whopper of a dent in the media blackout of all things kerry...

Have hope, I do, and I promise you....dreams do come true and they can happen to you...;-)

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Nobody cares about Nam or the TANG

but they do care about character.

When you look at the right wing blitz kreig response to the CBS story, then you know that side thought it was pretty damn important.

[Seabiscuit]

24. Character is precisely why Nam and Tang should continue to be an issue

right throught the debates, and a blitzkried of ads through Nov. 2.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Bush's record as President is what defines his character

People are sick of hearing about Vietnam, particularly those of us that had to live through that traumatic period in our history that also encompassed the assassinations of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy as well as the Watergate scandal, the Chicago police riot during the 1968 Democratic Convention, the student antiwar moratoriums, Kent State Massacre, the Chicago 8 Trial, Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers, etc.

[Seabiscuit]

27. You must be about my age, which is 59.

You and I lived through it all. We may have some minor divergences of opinion, yet I've always valued your input as a fellow compatriot-in-arms from the 60's generation.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Yep, we are the same age

I had nightmares before the Gulf War began, and I had nightmares before the Iraq invasion began. We are now seeing our nightmares play out in ugly reality on TV. What a horrible waste! Not only we have destroyed an entire society, and butchered thousands of people that had been victimized by Saddam, but are also destroying ourselves and our military in the process.

The good thing about the Gulf War is that it laid to rest the ghosts of Vietnam. There was a new appreciation about the people that served during that period in our history (my gender kept me from that theater of operations). Iraq has brought back all of the ugliness of Vietnam, with a vengeance no less! In Vietnam there was never any systematic torture, sanctioned at the highest levels of government. There were no concentration camps, as in Guantanamo. Not even the most controversial aspects of Vietnam, such as the Phoenix Program, ever reached the magnitude of what the so-called War on Terror has unleashed.

I am sick of the whole thing!

[Seabiscuit]

30. I agree completely...

except I conjecture that you inadvertantly omitted mention of My Lai.

[John Q. Citizen]

35. Bush's character is defined

by his whole life, including his record as Pres.

However, a number of people seem to see that Bush was willing to send American troops into Iraq and see that as sign of a strong character.

The task is to connect the dots of Bush's life, his whole life, in the minds of the voters.

[Journeyman]

10. It seems most of our discourse these days is a comparison to the past. . .

be it parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, similarities between Bush and Hitler, correlations between our economy and the Great Depression . . . for every aspect of life, it seems, there's an overabundance of people who can't see beyond simplistic comparisons and contrasts to distant times, can't face the reality of our situation and struggle against its sufficiently disturbing reality. It seems, as a society, we're abrogating our responsibilities and seeking easy answers by relying on the labors of the past, instead of shouldering our burden and seeking renewal in our own time. And the saddest part is, those most adamant in this delusion are those who could most effect change if they would but bring themselves to face the present.

[Gregorian]

11. Yes, but I don't see it as being about Vietnam

To me it's about truth and lies. Just another crack to hold on to, in the cliff we are scaling. Just another hand hold. It's about whatever it takes to delouse the White House. I'll never tire of whatever it takes to get these vermin to scuttle off.
Depending on where one is, the degree of discomfort is proportional. At least we aren't on the business end of a 50mm gun, like the Iraqis.
I'm tired of spinning against the spin machine. In that respect, it's time to move on to something that sticks. We're running out of time.

[Green Hornet]

12. Thanks for a breath of common sense

Too many voters now have no memories of Nam or have conveniently forgotten. Kerry isn't helping the situation any with gaffes like "I voted for the Iraq war before I voted against it."

It is high time to move on and discuss something else.

Like an exit strategy for Iraq.

Like an economy in the crapper.

Like a vanishing middle class.

Like the close relationship between Bush and Vincente Fox, who is doing such a bang-up job with the Mexican economy that those who aren't in the ruling elite are forced to risk their lives coming north.

Like the legions of corrupt, greedy businessmen who want to sell products for first-world prices while paying third-world wages.

Need I go on?

If Kerry doesn't abandon this Vietnam thing and move on to one or more of any of the above topics, this campaign is headed down the crapper.

It is past time to refocus this campaign and start talking about things that matter here and now.

[uhhuh]

16. That's Funny

Really. It really is.

Kerry isn't even talking about this. I can tell how much you hate him, but you hate him so much that you are attributing things to him that he's not even doing.

The pundits are talking about it. The blogosphere and political websites are talking about it, but Kerry isn't.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/

These are the latest releases from the Kerry campaign.

I don't see the word Vietnam anywhere in them.

He is addressing healthcare.

He is adderessing the poor economy.

He is addressing the chimp's failures and broken promises.

Why don't you direct your web browser to Kerry's site and see what he's talking about?

or you can go here:

http://www.votenader.org

and get a refill of smug juice.

[Green Hornet]

32. Kerry has a nice website

But the average voter does not go there. They listen to what the pundits are talking about; a few check out the blogosphere and political websites. The perception may not be 100% square with reality, but it is what the average voter bases their decision on.

How many candidates do you know that took a video camera to Nam? How many do you know who did the goofy "Reporting for Duty" introduction when they could have and should have been talking about the topics we both agree are important?

Yes, I'll admit that I wish Howard Dean had been the nominee and not a do-nothing senator selected by the media whores and a few hog farmers in Iowa. This wouldn't even be a close contest if we had a candidate with a clear message.

But that being said, a puppet of Theresa is still a better choice than a puppet of Haliburton.

[rumguy]

13. Agreed - I wish the DNC hadn't run their new ad

And if they had run an ad I wished they'd found the people on the list to get in to the TANG that couldn't make it cuz rich kids like Bush got vaulted to the front - I'd like to see how many of those ended up having to go and ended up getting killed - I'd like to see the shots of the graves of those who had to fight the war - while rich kids partied it up in the 'champagne unit'....

All this he said/she said shit just doesn't wash...

[ibegurpard]

14. And how do you suggest we change the subject?

Iraq War...down the memory hole. Abu Ghraib... down the memory hole. Treasonous cover-blowing of CIA agents... down the memory hole.
Dude, we've talked about all of that ad nauseum here. The problem is it all gets a mention or two in a "mainstream" media source and then its gone. So I talk about it with my family and acquaintances and their eyes glaze over because they don't want to see or hear it.

[Dr Fate]

15. We fail everytime we refuse to tell the truth about Bush.

If Bush lied about his service in 2000, then what else has he lied about?

That is the point.

We fail everytime we refuse to tell the truth about Bush.

I say we run with the truth about Bush for a change and see what happens.

[AuntPatsy]

18. Good post and I agree with every word...

[JSJ]

17. header betrays a terrible ignorance of realpolitik nt

[PeaceProgProsp]

19. I'm a little tired of hearing about all war.

[The Wielding Truth]

23. History makes us wiser, We should not forget Bush turned this into War

He declared his war on Iraq and now we have lost over 1000 souls.If we don't remember and talk about the past we won't learn how to stop Bush's War.or any WAR.

[newyawker99]

40. Hi TruelyMe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Pax Argent]

20. Amen

The problem (and glory) of our side is that we will chase the truth on little things completely into the weeds past the point where anybody else cares about it.

You are right Will, there are far bigger fish to fry.

[elsiesummers]

21. Agree. Beyond ideology, by any standards, Bush is a crappy fXXXing preside

Bush is doing a lousy job. Even for a neo-con RWer - even if you believe in that sort of strategy - Bush just can't get it right.

Bush is a big big spender on the budget. (He's fiscally incompetant). He has totally screwed up this war in Iraq - even for those who believed in the invasion on the basis of securing a foothold in the M.E. and securing access to oil (forget the WMD farce) - he's a big loser - incompetant.

No matter where anyone stands on the issues - can't they see that we need someone capable at the helm - someone who at least solicits enough viewpoints to weigh options carefully and not fXXk things up?

Bush is a disaster - he's totally screwed up on Iraq and if we think that's bad - wait until he makes it even worse - screws up Social Security and institutes a flat tax - makes abortion illegal - and then when the dollar crashes - Iraq will seem like it was easy - a piece of cake - compared to what's next!

[stevedeshazer]

22. This is the weirdest god-damned presidential election EVER

With six weeks left. Six fuckin' weeks.

We ain't seen nothin' yet. It's going to get much worse.

I'm so sick of it I could scream.

I hate these media people. Every one. There, I said it.

[IndianaGreen]

25. If you talk about Vietnam, there is little time to talk about Iraq

If you talk about Kitty Kelley's trashy book, you have no media time left to talk about the lies about WMDs that got us into Iraq.

If you talk about CBS's Memogate, there is even less time to talk about how in the Hell we are going to get out of Iraq.

It's the IRAQ war, stupid!

[Piperay]

29. Sick to death

of the constant obsession with Viet Nam, the issues of today need to be covered.

[AntiFascist]

31. The Swift Boat Ads are now featuring....

radicals and war protesters next to pics of Kerry with long hair, etc., criticizing the Viet Nam war. I'm hoping this will resonate, in a way they don't want, with younger voters who are antiwar, worry about the draft, and are into 60s stuff. After all, the ones who protested the war were right, in the end. (That's "right" as in correct.)

[unfrigginreal]

33. Now is not the time to bug out on this issue

all the shit is being slung in Bush's direction. Let the surrogates keep pushing the Bush deceit and cowardice over his military service and Kerry can keep pushing the lies made by Bush and his cronies over the last 4 years.

Purely anecdotal evidence but I thought it very telling that on Crossfire yesterday, the Pukes sat on their hands the entire show while the Dems cheered wildly. The show was ALL about Bush and his military credentials.

[chimp chump]

34. craptactical tentacle (ooh, manga flashback)

This is the dumbest election in the history of the universe, and this Guard crap is merely a craptactical tenticle stretching out from the maw.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd only be interested if one of them actually came out strongly and said he was wrong to have ever served or that he was wrong not to have gone to Vietnam. Now, *that* might be worth discussing. Maybe. But no more than one news cycle.

As it is, Kerry's staff are idiots to have allowed so much time to be wasted and letting the SwiftVets drive up his negatives so much. But there would have been an attack on Kerry to peel off votes so if it wasn't the Swifties, it would have been something else. But Kerry's campaign history is generally floundering around looking like a loser and then coming on strong at the last minute. He's a bit of a sleeper candidate. Although some people might not like it, a strategy for a strong finish is not necessarily a bad one. Look at how Kerry unexpectedly crushed Dean in both Iowa and New Hampshire. And Kerry looked dead in the water until the last three days before Iowa.

It'll be interesting to watch. And given Kerry's electoral history, it isn't over yet. Not even close. But it is Bush's election to lose, just like any race with an incumbent always is.

[no name no slogan]

36. 4 months on a swift boat vs. 20 years in the US Senate

Why hasn't Kerry talked about his 20 years in the US Senate, where he's been a part of some truly monumental (and progressive) legislation? Even his DNC speech was highlighted by what he did in Vietnam 35 years ago, not about his very solid record in the Senate.

I'm in a swing state, getting bombarded with campaign commercials from both sides, yet I have NEVER heard a word about what Kerry has done with himself since 1984. Yes, the Repubs are partially to blame, but Kerry hasn't done much to tout his own record, either. Nor have the 527s.

Most Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Dubya already-- we KNOW he sucks. But Kerry needs to hammer away at why he's better than Dubya-- and his excellent record in the Senate is part of that.

I'm still pretty lukewarm about Kerry, personally, but I know that he's capable of great things. I'm voting for him because of what he's done in the Senate-- NOT for what he did in 1969.

[spanone]

Agree....these are all diversionary tactics. No WMDs and 1000 dead.

[spanone]

37. Agree....these are all diversionary tactics. No WMDs and 1000 dead.

[MissB]

38. I'm bloody well tired of the Bush administration

I'm not sure whether it is the fault of the American people because of their (our) collective attention span or the fault of the media or the fault of the Rovian tactics of the Bush campaign.

I would like to hear about real issues, Will. I would love to hear a real debate on the issues by Bush and Kerry. I also know that no matter how much I want that, it isn't going to happen. Everything is packaged for the 10-second attention span of the average American.

I would love to believe that all Americans care about the economy, social security, national security and world affairs. People I talk to in real life have those concerns. But then I pick up the newspaper and read the editorial section and some schmuck is going on about Kerry's "self-inflicted" wounds.

I see the Guard issue as an attempt to reach those voters who only care about whether Kerry's Vietnam wounds were real or not. It calls into question Bush's character on a level that may actually get through to their brains. I do care more about the pressing needs of our country, but frankly it doesn't bother me that it is being brought up. It only bothers me that it goes on and on and on.

[NicRic]

39. Yes, and the ridiculous distortions !

We have one guy that signed up and asked for active duty ,the other guy who did everything his dad could to avoid serving . The frist guy is being painted as notable to lead and the chicken is being painted as some great leader sent by God to save us all. Iam really shocked by how many ignorant voters exsist in this country , and the repugs should feel insulted that the bush team takes them for such fools, instead they are turning out to be just that,fools being fooled by the most corrupt and secretive of pResidency's ! After eight years of one of the youngest and most intelligent of Presidents (President Clinton of course) we now have one of the dumbest ever. Its one thing to be fooled by a smart conman, however to be fooled by one of the dumbest is down right embarassing, perhaps its their pride of not wanting to admit how stupid they have been, I would like to give them the benifit of doubt ! However if this guy gets elected (bush) they will make it official that they are certified fools being lead by the king of fools !

[DinahMoeHum]

41. I'm not, because unfortunately history is eerily repeating itself

in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The only difference is that now the GOP is in charge.

They've replaced the boogeyman "communist" with "terrorist".

They got to where they are today by arguing for 30 years that all we have to do to pull down the big bad evil guys is a bigger stick than what we had in Vietnam. Plus, a censored controlled press and squelched dissent - they blame the press and the protestors as the reasons why we lost in Vietnam.

They didn't learn then, and they aren't learning now: those tactics will get you nowhere and nothing except more sympathy and support for THE OTHER SIDE.

Remember, the majority of these GOP warmongers never served in the armed forces themselves - SOMEBODY ELSE else did the bleeding and dying for them.

I'm sorry, but there are just too many parallels to Vietnam in Iraq and Afghanistan - and this shit has to be nipped in the bud RIGHT NOW.


:grr:

[ArkDem]

43. You are absolutely right!

[JVS]

44. Wow. I agree. The war is long over. Pay attention to current problems!

[truthspeaker]

45. Yes and no. No because we still aren't talking about the central lessons.

Yes, because people would rather beat around the bush than talk about the central lessons.

To me, one central lesson is that the US public will not stand for the sacrifices of a major war unless it's in a good cause. The other is that politicians shouldn't make military decisions.

I'd love to talk about that. As far as who served and who went AWOL, while it is indicative of each candidate's character, it's getting kind of old, especially when there is so much recent stuff we could talk about.

[Demonaut]

46. sorry but the guard issue wounds bush to some degree and death

by a thousand cuts is still death, bush needs to be voted out of office and and issues of character always count. I understand the need to bring other issues to the forefront and these hopefully will be addressed in the debates

[Arkana]

47. Hell yes

No matter what anyone says, the Vietnam war didn't end thirty years ago.

We're still paralyzed by it now when we should be talking about TODAY's issues. I said this when the Smear Boat Liars were sliming Kerry and now I'm saying it again over this TANG controversy. We should be discussing Bush's royal fuckup (aka Iraq) and his dismal record on the economy rather than his TANG service (or lack thereof).

Trouble is, both sides will never agree to detente on Vietnam. It haunts Decision 2004 and it will until November 2.

[RobinA]

48. I Sure Am

especially considering there are a couple of wars on NOW. I wonder how Joe Grunt over in the desert feels knowing the folks back in the States are electing a President by their arguing over a war that's been over for 30 years.

"This is the dumbest election in the history of the universe"

Sheesh, ya got that right. I thought the LAST one was bad, centering as it did around Love Canal and who invented the Internet. On the bright side, we are rapidly approaching the point where it can't get any worse, so it's gotta get better one of these years. Doesn't it?