I am depressed about the stimulus package

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

I think our current economic situation is the most pressing time-sensitive exigency since the Cuban missile crisis. It's certainly a bigger crisis than 9/11.

But the response ranges from ignorant malice (Republicans) to listless cliche (Our side).

No courage, no imagination, no recognition of the sharp and emergent nature of the situation.

The responses all boil down to, "let's do a little more deficit spending than usual on the same sort of stuff we spend on every year and hope the other side gets the blame."

Cut some taxes, fund a few bridges, bail out some state governments (merely shifting deficits from one ledger to another)... it's a bunch of nothing.

And all based on an assumption that the problem can be ridden out; that there is some expected cyclical self-correction to be awaited. (Though nobody can specify where that assumed corrective impetus is expected to come from.)

There was, and is, an opportunity for someone to propose measures that might change the game. But instead we have this listless drift toward timidity, ass-covering and hoping for the best.

This is not an Obama problem. It's an EVERYBODY problem.

[TTUBatfan2008]

1. I agree...

This isn't a stimulus in my opinion. It's just a bunch of money being tacked onto our enormous deficit unfortunately. Obama better hope the economy does improve on its own in the next 4 years, because if it doesn't, you can bet the Republicans will be in full attack mode regarding the amount of money spent on this.

[Patchuli]

26. Republicans need to remember

that their pResident mishandled the first half of this mess as well as causing it in the first place! :eyes: I know I will be glad to remind the Repubs I know of that!

[bstender]

63. who's to blame?

the ponzi nature of the US economy relies on credit and then more credit on top of that credit in order to not collapse and this scheme has been well entrenched for decades prior to Shrub's term... President's are powerful, but not THAT powerful.

The current media blitz is another sales job is to convince everyone of the magnitude of the current crisis and how if we go along with them appropriating several trillion of dollars, they'll "fix it all up". But in fact, this several trillion dollars is a free-form attempt to put a lid on the reality of the ponzi and get everyone to start borrowing (buying in) and then the party can start again until reality comes back and bursts the latest bubble.

The current media blitz is identical to the runup to the Iraq invasion. All sorts of big name experts are on board with "stimulus" and "Bailout", all naysayers are marginalized and have no air time. This time it's the Democrats who are providing the boots on the ground while the repigs are the skeptical ones, but the game is playing out exactly the same way--zero debate, this is what we must do (to preserve our way of life).

this bubble burst/reinflate/repeat program would be fine if it was a sustainable, but the problem is that each bubble is actually a bigger debt and is harder to reinflate...until it can't be re-inflated. (which is when it is _really_ a serious depression(correction), maybe it's this time, maybe next).

alternative: let the debts go bad, let the big financial institutions collapse and the dollar to go to 10 cents if it will...at least it would be a REAL 10 cents. People will survive this much better than the media will have you believe. it is the investment bankers that will be jumping out of the high rises as they realize that they might have to actually work for a living. It would be the rise of a real economy based on real necessary human endeavor rather than the environmental and soul-killing system we are desperately trying to believe is really OK after all.

of course i know this latest bubble inflation is a done deal, and it will probably work. but remember this perspective when the next crisis comes in 10 years and we are double-plus-fucked. or should i say, our children are fucked....(that is the subtext to all of this madness, everyone wants theirs now, the suckers are being born as we speak)

[Patchuli]

81. I know it's beyond the scope of former pResident *

(Wow, I love saying former!) but I meant specifically that the economy was in pretty damn good shape when they got into power starting with their 'revolution' in the early '90s. All this deregulation basically removed the safety nets on the ponzi scheme and it took many, many people to make this mess. The mortgage situation should never have been allowed to get to this, the joblessness thanks in large part to American companies outsourcing work, the loss of manufacturing in America, this is all due to mainly 'conservatives.' I'm still trying to figure out what it is exactly that the Republican party 'conserves.' I squarely put the responsibility for allowing this mess to brew on the doorstep of the GOP. It's their 'live for today, to hell with tomorrow' attitude that brought our economy to its knees. My spouse and I have lost so much in house value and 401K, we aren't even checking!

Then for * to turn around and hand out bailout money to these same fuck-ups with no accountability is just the icing on a pretty funky cake. I only wish Kerry and the Dems had had the balls to fight the stolen election in 2004; perhaps we could have forestalled some of this mess. I know we'd have gotten out of Iraq. We Democrats must always hold our leaders' feet to the fire to keep us on the right path.

I'm tired of dealing with Republican aftermath!

[meli224]

2. I agree

Obama's original plan got changed and a bunch of crap added to it. If this plan doesn't work, he will suffer big time. Supposedly most of the infrastructure spending won't take effect until 2010, and it is only 25 billion. Doesn't look good.

[customerserviceguy]

3. Tax cuts should be directed at the people hardest hit

Thirty years ago, unemployment compensation was not taxable, just like worker's comp and AFDC are still not taxed today. The grip of the taxman tightened around UC a little at a time, during the Carter Administration, a law was passed taxing UC if the adjusted gross income of a married couple was over $25K, and over $20K for a single person. The screws kept on tightening until the point where 100% of UC is taxable.

Prudent people have 10% withheld from their UC checks to meet that tax burden. If we stopped taxing UC, they'd get an immediate "raise" in their weekly checks, which would flow to the hardest hit areas of the country. If we retroactively went back to January 1, 2008, to exempt UC from taxation, the sizable tax refunds that resulted would also flow in to shore up the local economies that have seen the most plant closures, layoffs, and other assorted economic misery. In both cases, it is money that would be plowed back into the economy immediately, and not just squirreled away in some hedge fund. Yes, it might be used to pay debt, but giving a jobless person a chance to dogpaddle on their minimum payments on a credit card keeps that lender healthier than a blank check "we don't care what you do with it" bailout.

Do any Congresspersons read this forum?

[babylonsister]

4. Do you have a better solution? nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

9. Maybe...

In ADDITION to the $850 Billion package, take another $850 Billion of bank consumer debt off the balance sheets, refinancing it as individual debt to the federal government at 7-8%. Refinancing, not debt-forgiveness.

The fed funds rate is about 0% yet people are paying 20%+ for consumer debt. Those high interest rates are driven by perceived risk, not by the cost of money.

It adds a few hundred in monthly cash flow to a lot of distressed households (month after month, unlike a stimulus check), stabilizes banks and encourages new consumer lending. And we need all three of those things.

And, most of all, there's a "wealth effect"... many people would feel less under the gun and more open to new spending.

(The difference between owing $20,000 at 21% vs. 8% is immense.)

[Bongo Prophet]

16. I think refinancing debt is a great idea

If there were also a way to work off part or all of that debt, say by insulating low income homes, we could have the added benefit of those lower income people having less monthly payments going to heat/cool their houses - thus saving energy and taking a burden off of them.

Win/win/win.

[madibella]

18. Good ideas here that would really help someone like me.

I am not a deadbeat, my business has taken a huge hit like many others. We cannot collect our debts owed, therefore we cannot always pay our bills in a timely manner. Plus the fact that business in down 65% for 2008. Then we are socked with incredible rates, late fees etc which in turn hurt our ability to obtain credit.
I absolutely want to pay my debts, but the banks back people like myself into a corner. I think this type of assistance would go a LONG way.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

20. You and me both

If I could buy money for what it costs half my problems would go away.

The perception of risk is screwing up all credit streams and the one thing the government can do that the private sector cannot is assume risk.

My mortgage isn't high, but it's way more than 4.6%. If I could refinance at current mortgage rates it would be like a cash windfall.

But I can't refinance because the no-doc loans don't exist anymore, which were a boon to high-cash-flow, low-profit self-employed type folks who show very little federal adjusted gross income. (If you plow money back into the business you don't show a big income so you're penalized for doing the "right thing." If profits were plowed into non-deductible Vegas get-aways you'd look like a better credit risk. What a system...)

Money is dirt cheap but we cannot get at it!

[madibella]

22. Yes, this is exactly it.

I am self-employed also. I have cut our lifestyle to the bare minimum. I have sold personal property (including my wedding ring) to try to get my business going and stave off foreclosure. But I need cash flow and without available credit, it is nearly non-existent.

We purchased our home high, put 75% down and what I wouldn't give to get access to that equity, plus a lowered interest rate. This would literally solve our financial problems right now and allow my business to have a fighting chance.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. Another idea would be...

The government could just loan people money for five years at T-Bill interest.

Yes, there would be political hell to pay when people didn't feel like repaying it, but nobody said it would be easy.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Great idea

Unlike the GOP influenced plan that does nothing for the people at all. The $500 cut is like having someone buy you lunch one a week, or a lousy lunch twice. Real life changing stuff! I know I always say, if I could just afford two more Subway Meatball sandwiches a week, life would be divine! All debt gone! What will you do with your $9.61 a week? Buy a new house or a new car?

[apnu]

42. Hey that is a good idea

People get lower payments and the Federal Government gets another revenue stream. Its win-win. Nice! Have you suggested it to the administration (and your Senators and Congress critters)?

[bstender]

65. buy me a hummer

take another $850 Billion of bank consumer debt off the balance sheets, refinancing it as individual debt to the federal government at 7-8%.

What? so i get to pay for people who ran up their credit cards? how is that fair? i work like a dog everyday to keep my family fed and i don't run up my credit cards because it may jeopardize that job#1. but i know that many people think i am a sucker. you can run up your card and if your debts get too bad, you can just default and no problem. your refi is the same thing writ large. i get to pay for all of these other people who went ahead and charged the new playstation?

(btw, "perceived risk" is pretty clear perception in case you havent looked around. when the last bubble was inflating, it was easy for banks to make truckloads of money, now they have to do it the old-fashioned way.)

but this is the hilarious line: "And, most of all, there's a "wealth effect"... many people would feel less under the gun and more open to new spending." what about not "feeling" your way through the problem and just doing the math, it is not that hard. and there's people who will help with the arithmetic if it is too confusing. the formula is "money coming in" - "money going out". People have similar problems with the weight management formula. it is a national disease of lazy dreaming and wanting. (and of course, expecting the big govt. tit to come along make it all better)

seriously, WTF? who gets to pay for all of this "refi"? as long as it's "someone else" it is all fine and dandy?

[SOS]

79. After nationalization you will get the same rates as everyone else.

The private American banking system is dead.
Insolvent.
And no amount of "stimulus" can save it.

Countries that have been destroyed by private bankers, such as Ireland, UK, Iceland, USA, Portugal, Greece and Italy, will eventually be forced to nationalize their entire financial sectors.
It's coming sooner than you think. The banks continue to lie about their true condition.

Once the private banks are wiped out, the interest on the seized loans will go to government entities at much lower rates.
You'll get those rates, as well as everyone else. Wouldn't a 4.0% fixed mortgage be helpful to you?

In a few years, the governments of the ruined nations will be able to split the new institutions and re-privatize them under a new regulatory structure.

And one question: If you had no health insurance and you needed a life-saving $50,000 operation, would you put it on your credit card or die?
90% of all bankruptcies in the US are due to four things: medical bills, divorce, death of spouse and job loss.

[Uzybone]

5. What do you propose?

Everybody needs to put their best foot forward here.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

10. an additional consumer relief plan

In ADDITION to the $850 Billion package, take another $850 Billion of bank consumer debt off the balance sheets, refinancing it as individual debt to the federal government at 7-8%. Refinancing, not debt-forgiveness.

The fed funds rate is about 0% yet people are paying 20%+ for consumer debt. Those high interest rates are driven by perceived risk, not by the cost of money.

It adds a few hundred in cash flow to a lot of distressed households, stabilizes banks and encourages new consumer lending. And we need all three of those things.

And, most of all, there's a "wealth effect"... many people would feel less under the gun and more open to new spending.

(The difference between owing $20,000 at 21% vs. 8% is immense.)

[Uzybone]

11. Now that is bold

At face value I can't see anything wrong with it. Hopefully ideas like this are being considered. Thanks.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

14. And might even make money

Because the world situation is so perilous there is no shortage of buyers of US Treasury debt at 2-4%. We can roll that into debt owed the government at twice the treasury rate.

Of course there would be defaults and such... but the total loss to the government would be nowhere near $850 Billion. Even if we lost 100 Billion in the long run that would be money incredibly well spent in terms of bang for the buck.

Maybe divert the repayment of debt to a social security trust fund, creating an income stream going forward.

[bstender]

66. zeroes

i have a good idea too! let's add 4, no make it 6 zeroes to the right side of all of our bank account balances. too bad for those suckers who have their money in cash or tangibles, but hey, at least we'll be taken care of!!!

</sarcasm>

everyone with consumer debt will love this plan. everyone holding that debt will not love this plan. duh.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

68. Why are the smuggest posters so often the least insightful? Duh!

"everyone with consumer debt will love this plan. everyone holding that debt will not love this plan. duh."

You think lenders would not like having their books cleared thereby avoiding ALL default risk going forward?

Jesus... a lot of banks would be falling over themselves to get full repayment of consumer debt portfolios. It would be an immense cash infusion to the banks.

Have you not noticed the whole asset valuation problem in banking? Do you think credit card companies actually clear 21% on money, rather than experiencing a lot of defaults?

Do you think that banks are not worried whether their consumer debt portfolios will go south next year?

If banks are so desirous of these debts why are they closing consumer credit accounts like crazy? They are afraid to extend consumer debt even at 24% while the Fed Funds rate is about 0%. Thank that through to deduce whether they think the sector is dangerous or a safe money-maker.

Duh!

Yes, anything you do will have disparate impacts. That is a plain fact about the world of policy, not a novel and dispositive observation.

[bstender]

70. duh, indeed

You think lenders would not like having their books cleared thereby avoiding ALL default risk going forward?

oh yeah, i forgot. your plan calls for transferring that debt to our children, and they can't say boo about it....brilliant!

If banks are so desirous of these debts why are they closing consumer credit accounts like crazy? They are afraid to extend consumer debt even at 24% while the Fed Funds rate is about 0%. Thank that through to deduce whether they think the sector is dangerous or a safe money-maker.

of course theyre not lending, they arent stupid. but just taking their debt away and getting everyone to pretend there is no problems anymore so that they can resume the same economic dead-end course is not what should be called a solution or even a "good policy". it is simple political expediency on the politicians part and "taking care of the wealthy donors" on the other part. the "regular people" get to pick up the tab and you're hoping that this delayed pain is gonna be better, but think a bit yourself, where does it end? the part about how we'll all suffer if we don't do this is about as true as the tale about "the terrorists who were all going to come and kill us if we didnt invade Iraq".

Wounds and sicknesses are always better to deal with sooner than later. (but children will always choose _later_!)

[AndyA]

6. The Bush tax cuts need to be stopped right away.

The wrong people are getting the tax cuts. If you give a wealthy person an extra $100, they are going to put it in an investment account, or stick it in their sock drawer for a rainy day.

But if you give a poor person $100, they are going to spend it. On food, clothes, and other things. That $100 goes right back into the economy.

This is where everybody seems to have it wrong. Instead of injecting money at the top, where it's been mismanaged all along, the money needs to be given directly to those who will SPEND IT and rev up the economy again! Giving billions to the banks who've already misspent billions isn't the answer. The answer is helping out the millions of people in America's middle class, and lower income earners, who need it the most.

This will allow them to make their mortgage payments, buy new cars, and jump start the economy again.

(Edit: spelling. I seem to be having a spelling problem today...)

[apnu]

43. I believe Pelosi is going to let them expire on their own.

The Pubbies lost that fight.

[DCBob]

7. Totally agree.. in fact if we treat this like a normal "self-correcting" cycle we will fail.

I do believe the Obama team is thinking this way but they have to be careful not to say anything that will cause any further public nervousness. I think we are heading towards a massive depression if the solutions are not well thought out and well implemented.

[DCBob]

8. Larry Summers op/ed in Wash Post a few weekes ago was encouraging to me...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/26/AR2008122601299.html

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

12. That's a good piece and I agree, but it doesn't go far enough.

We need long-tern benefits but also need a dramatic reboot of national economic sentiment. It's not either or.

So in addition to long-term planing I favor some very dramtic near term action designed to be disruptive (in a good way)

[DCBob]

13. I hear you. I think we have an opportunity now to "upset the apple cart"...

and rework the system for the better. Paul Volker released a plan recently that talked about some fundamental changes to the global financial system that make alot sense to me:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/15/AR2009011501715.html?nav%3Dhcmodule⊂=AR

[northernlights]

15. I like the nationalize credit card debt idea

and I don't even have credit card debt. I'd also like to see national re-mortgaging -- I liked the idea of letting banks take a 1-time hit and get out of their bad mortgages with a solid $$-loss, and allow homeowners to pay mortgage at good interest rate for closer-to-real value of their homes. I realize people who aren't in danger of foreclosure may think this isn't fair, but as someone who paid off my mortgage in full, I'd just like to see a floor put under the housing market again.

Spending on infrastructure projects is good for construction people, but doesn't help anybody else.

Personally, I'd like to see funding for health care delivery education. There are shortages of all healthcare delivery staff, student waiting lists are already long, and most schools are being forced to cut back the programs!

1. Expand the programs to e(re)employ the teachers, who will put money right back into the economy.
2. Fasttrack waitlisted students, and create openings for additional students who are "retooling"
3. expand pell grants and make student loans provisional (forgiven on certification). Health care school is tough enough, and the work is very, very hard, with awful hours, in every weather, and delivery people are on the front lines, daily exposed to virulent, antibiotic resistant pathogens. They should not also be forced to take on student loans the size of mortgages. Relieving that burden would give them signicant discretionary income to circulate back into the system, esp once they're working. And relieving the shortage of healthcare workers along with their debt, would help keep a balance between supply and demand, so help cap fees and salaries.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

17. Infrastructure is very good long-term, economically

The effects of the 1850s national highway system spending on national productivity are immense and pay dividends every year.

But, as you note, infrastructure spending doesn't change the game short term.

[northernlights]

30. that's true...

and I'm all for it. I guess I was thinking there needs to be infrastructure investment beyond the traditional infrastructure. Such as investment in job training so displaced people (like me) aren't forced to incur more and more burdens at a time when we most need a leg up. Other kinds of targeted investment that immediately help the people that have been severely impacted, as well as providing dividends down the road.

Plus the broader investment, like the credit card "refinancing" suggested above, that helps all small business owners and would also help stop some of the foreclosures.

Another key area of investment that creates jobs now is green energy. Thin film solar has just become commercially viable and available this year -- the manufacturers need to be able to ramp up production and expand into smaller sales, not just for large, megacorps.

I know Maine has a number of energy projects on hold, including a wind farm.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

45. Just noticed my typo. That federal highway system of the 1850s was a big waste.

The one in the 1950s was a great help, though.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. Your mortgage idea

leads me to say that if we are going to fogive hundreds of thousands for 'homeowners' who are really just debtors, we should forgive credit card and other debt as well.
The 'real value' is today's value? How does that work? I had to leave my homestate while people flipped every house and took millions in profit. If they did as you suggest, I assume there would be solid caps in place, to prevent the 'real value' going up too far again? I do not really want to pay someone's debt just to have them profit by selling the thing all inflated agiain in a couple of years. Seriously. If the low value is 'real' then it must be real. No negotiating with 'real' prices and selling later at 10X that. Just no.
Or forgive all debt, not just mortgate debt.

[jillan]

19. I really like the part of funding shovel ready projects.

It's so obvious....getting people back to work right now.

The rest - I don't know, I am not an economist.


Jim Cramer - that wacko from CNBC - was on Tweety yesterday and he said it needs to get started ASAP. He said that the Repugs think the economy grows from the top down. Democrats think it grows from the bottom up. Obama's plan hits the economy from both directions.
Even tho I am not a fan of Cramer's, I found that an interesting assessment.

[TheKentuckian]

21. I think Obama knows he will have to get at least one more substantive bill through

later.

The politics shouldn't matter in this dire of a situation but shouldn't and don't are worlds apart. If Obama rolled out a 1.5-3 trillion dollar package The Republicans, Blue Dogs, some mainstream and even liberal Democrats would reflexively shut it down. This isn't the only shot we'll fire and realistically it takes some planning to spend the kind of money we're talking about effectively.

I think it is pretty clear that the real floor is 1.5 trillion to have the needed impact but there is almost no amount of political capital to manufacture enough votes to slide 1.5-3+ trillion in spending in one bite.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

23. I disagree about the politics

This is the quintessential leadership situation.

If a new president with a mandate for change and riding stratospheric approval ratings cannot lead our way to the correct measure to deal with the largest problem we face...

If not now, when? This won't get easier. The pugs would dug in double hard on a second bite at the apple. To go big you have to employ momentum and get it done while everyone is still on a pink cloud.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

25. rachel maddow kick (She's doing a stimulus bites story)

[IsItJustMe]

27. It's not looking to good, is it? We will see, but the tax cuts over infrastructure spending is not

good.

[tonycinla]

28. Not Good

Just read the latest articles by Paul Krugman and David Brooks ,Obama is in danger of being rolled by the more experienced,savvy Congress members,exactly what I always feared.

[mtnsnake]

29. Pay as you go. No more borrowing unless it's for a house.

Some of these stimulus packages are geared toward giving people another opportunity to buy things they can't afford. It doesn't make sense. People need to start living within their means.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

32. That would plunge us into a depression for sure.

You must not belt-tighten in a deflationary environment. It's 100% disaster---real Hoover stuff. (That was the most compelling reason, IMO, that no sane person could have voted for McCain. His talk about a spending freeze was about the same as if he announced he planned to nuke Los Angeles.)

What makes sense for households does not make sense for governments. Households do not control the money supply.

Money is vanishing at an incredible rate. The money you can borrow against a house is part of the money supply. When values decline money vanishes from M3. Whenever a credit line is reduced that is money vanishing from M3.

The fed needs to create money and the government needs to spend money without limit until there's some hint of inflation.

People buying crap they cannot afford is, for better or worse, the entire basis of the global economy. One can say that shouldn't be the case but the time for that argument is when we are not facing deflation. Even if one doesn't like the global economy we can't just take it behind the barn and shoot it without starving a billion people somewhere.

It is the only global economy we've got.

[bstender]

67. rubbish

People buying crap they cannot afford is, for better or worse, the entire basis of the global economy. One can say that shouldn't be the case but the time for that argument is when we are not facing deflation. Even if one doesn't like the global economy we can't just take it behind the barn and shoot it without starving a billion people somewhere.

balderdash. we can and should jettison this bubble/ponzi-based sould and environmental crushing slave economy right now. (the sooner the better)

the billion or so people that supposedly depend upon this scheme would have a sustainable future instead of what they have now (and WE ARE THOSE PEOPLE)

It is the only global economy we've got

no, it's the only economy you seem capable of imagining. there are actually plenty of sustainable alternatives and this is the absolute best time to start imagining them.

[1776Forever]

31. Rachel Maddow had a great comment about this on tonight and agrees with you..link...

If you missed the Rachel Maddow comment on this here is the link to the video from MSNBC Rachel Maddow Show - It is 11 minutes long and the discussion starts around the 3 minute mark:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28820486

As you can see she is also questioning this same thing and I agree with her and you completely! I posted a post tonight on housing and how many more then are all ready out of housing are going to be put out soon. These include renters and home owners, who will soon be renters. If you would like to take a look here is the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4899079&mesg_id=4899079


:headbang: Keep it going - we should have a say in this. Isn't that what President Obama said we should do?

[Duppers]

35. I saw that and agree 100%

recommending your thread.

Please watch Bill Moyers Journal, also aired tonight, linked in my post below.

[Duppers]

33. WATCH THIS

Tonight's Bill Moyers Journal:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/01232009/watch.html

A must watch.

I've quote these intelligent journalists for years and they're on the money.

[1776Forever]

36. Thanks - I turned in when Williams & Harris-Lacewell were on - missed this 1st time around.

This is awesome and says it all!

...............

THOMAS FRANK: Well, this is the biggest issue of them all. I mean, you've got to do this right, this is the heart of the recession. This is what's caused it all. It's also a huge opportunity if Obama chooses to essentially remake the economy or to adjust the economy and make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again and to make sure that, in fact, the entire sort of way that wealth has been distributed, prosperity has been experienced in this country for the last 20 years, is done differently, done right next time.

Second of all, look, and this is the sort of broad, grand historical view of things. For the last — since the 1980s, the financial sector calls the shots. It not only is larger than manufacturing, it tells manufacturing what to do and every other sector of the economy.

Well, now look what's happened. Wall Street has driven us off a cliff, okay? It's time — I mean, it is their day of reckoning. And to think that they're just going to get bailed out with no strings attached, they don't have to change the way they behave after doing this to us as a country, that's inconceivable to me. We're now probably close to being the majority shareholders — you and me, the public-

BILL MOYERS: Yeah.

THOMAS FRANK: -majority shareholders. We're like the public is going to be — either is or will be soon the majority shareholder of a lot of banks in this country. And yet we will not have the power to vote, right? We can't vote the shares. We can't appoint directors. These are the conditions of the TARP, of the Troubled Assets Relief Program, right? That's a terrible blunder.

If we're going to throw all that money to these people, we need to be able to tell them, look, you have to do — you know, you have to let us have directives. We have to be able to have a voice in the operation of this business.

.........

Williams and Harris-Lacewell were outstanding too!

[Skittles]

34. it's crap and gimmicky

let's say it like it is

[RBInMaine]

37. Please quit complaining and give Obama a damn chance here !

[Pale Blue Dot]

40. I don't think we should give ANYONE a "chance" with nearly $1 trillion.

It's money we don't have. It's our children and grandchildren's money. The burden of proof is on HIM to explain why a)this will work, and b)why it's the only possible solution.

He hasn't met either burden.

[RBInMaine]

76. He IS explaining it, it's multi-pronged, or, perhaps, you want Bush back? Count your blessings.

[Duppers]

46. please, please watch this

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/01232009/watch.html

Bill Moyers Journal, Jan 23.09 (last night).

The first part with David Sirota and Thomas Frank is a MUST see.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Unfortunately I agree

it has been a good first week, but this 'stimulus package' is not bold it is just the same old shit.

[earth mom]

44. Obviously Obama cares too much what the rethugs think.

I'm pissed about his do nothing for the people stimulus package. :grr:

[Shiver]

47. From the stimulus bill

I'll admit right now, this is a partial summary, as I have not yet finished reading the entire document.

Infrastructure
$32 billion to transform the nation's energy transmission, distribution, and production systems
$16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
$6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes
$10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation
$6 billion to expand broadband internet access
$30 billion for highway construction
$31 billion to modernize federal and other public infrastructure
$19 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments
$10 billion for transit and rail
$14 billion for School Modernization and Repair Program
$6 billion for higher education modernization
$20 billion for health information technology


$200 billion total

Tax cuts
$87 billion for a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate.
$43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training
$39 billion helping with healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.
$79 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cutbacks to key services
$4.1 billion to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments
$15.6 billion to increase the Pell grant by $500
$4 billion for state and local law enforcement funding.
$27 billion to local school districts through
$20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.


$275 billion total

That is, of course, just a partial summary, but from my reading it does have significant measures directed towards helping the people, as well as infrastructure. The bill, in it entirety, can be viewed at the link in this thread. The website at the link also has a downloadable PDF of the bill.

[earth mom]

48. That's all well & good but the people need some CASH in their pockets NOW. nt

[Pale Blue Dot]

53. No, people need to face reality.

We can't spend more than we earn indefinitely.

[earth mom]

56. Sounds like you are talking the rethug meme of "personal responsibility".

:eyes:

So, do you think it was fair for the banks to get billions while the people get chump change?

Because I don't.

Hell, even * gave the peons some cold hard cash last year.

[Pale Blue Dot]

58. No, I don't think it was fair at all, and that's not what I said.

The crisis is happening because everyone - government at all levels, corporations and banks, and individuals - thought they could continue to accumulate debt forever without consequence. The "bailout", and Obama's stimulus, merely compound this problem by adding massive levels of new debt.

We need to grow up as a nation. We can't solve the problem of massive, massive debt by adding more debt.

[earth mom]

74. If the government really wants to stop the financial bleeding-end the wars NOW. nt

[bstender]

71. PR, yuk!

Personal Repsonsibility is a Repig meme? you're giving them way too much credit. that is a "Honest Human Being" meme in my book.

Hell, even * gave the peons some cold hard cash last year.

excuse me, but last i checked, it didnt come out of his pocket, it came out of my pocket, my kids pocket, yours too!

hello? isn't all of this stimulus and bailout money coming straight out of your pocket? why yes, yes it is...every penny...with interest.

[earth mom]

73. Things are worse now. People need money to live now.

Your argument would hold water if not for 2 (or is it 3 wars now?) in the middle east where OUR money has been squandered FOR YEARS on killing people.


So...Let's spend OUR money so people here in this country can LIVE.

[Shiver]

57. My mistake. I said "tax cuts" when I should have said "tax relief" or "tax-related"

In my defense, though, I had just finished reading a very complex 647-page document :P

A more detailed summary of some of the tax points, direct from the Appropriations Committee's "In-House" summary.

Tax Cuts to Make Work Pay and Create Jobs: We will provide direct tax relief to 95 percent of American workers, and spur investment and job growth for American Businesses.



Lower Healthcare Costs: To save not only jobs, but money and lives, we will update and computerize our healthcare system to cut red tape, prevent medical mistakes, and help reduce healthcare costs by billions of dollars each year.

· $20 billion for health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients and introduce cost-saving efficiencies.

· $4.1 billion to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments.



Help Workers Hurt by the Economy: High unemployment and rising costs have outpaced Americans’ paychecks. We will help workers train and find jobs, and help struggling families make ends meet.

· $43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training.

· $39 billion to support those who lose their jobs by helping them to pay the cost of keeping their employer provided healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.

· $20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.



Save Public Sector Jobs and Protect Vital Services: We will provide relief to states, so they can continue to employ teachers, firefighters and police officers and provide vital services without having to unnecessarily raise middle class taxes.

· $87 billion for a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate.

· $4 billion for state and local law enforcement funding.

There's a lot more, which you can read at this link.

[DainBramaged]

49. In about 45 minutes it will have been FIVE DAYS since the inauguration

how much faster do you want Obama to work? Should he not sleep? Eat? Lobby every single member of Congress and the Senate 24/7?


I swear DU has become nuts.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

51. Well, since that has nothing to do with the topic...

Why would I want him lobbying congress 24/7? I don't find the plan he's putting forward sufficient to the task so I'm certainly not impatient that he hasn't sold it well enough or that it hasn't passed already.

I don't think anyone in this thread is complaining that he isn't working fast enough, it's that he is working on the wrong thing.

[Pale Blue Dot]

52. Exactly. nt

[DainBramaged]

55. Of course, YOUR agenda is more important than the Country's, why should I question that?

Let me smack my head until it's bloody, how could I be so dumb to think that YOU and the people in this thread are smarter than PRESIDENT Obama? :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


My Dad used to say, people who think they are smarter than the person they elected are as pompous as the jackass they threw out.

[Pale Blue Dot]

59. You're using something called the argument from authority.

It's a logical fallacy in which you claim something is true merely because someone in authority says that it's true. Obama's a brilliant man, but every one of his claims is subject to the same rules of evidence and proof that anyone else's claims are. There are many people on the right who claimed that we should not question Bush because he was the President. Would you agree with your dad about them?

The question is, why is Obama's plan the right plan? If you believe that it is, you should be able to answer that question using logic and evidence, not straw men and appeals to authority.

[DainBramaged]

61. (sigh) No, I'm using the argument give the guy a chance instead of skewering him on THE FIFTH DAY

of his Administration. So many of you here whine about his policies and "claims". What claims? Maybe you should use your logic and evidence at a place where Obama is not recognized as President. Oh wait, this is DU, it's OK to skewer him because so many of you have no lives and spend your free time thinking up illogical arguments and evidence to fill up forum space.


Oh, BTW, my Dad died in 1984, during Raygun One, and he died hoping for a better world because he saw what was coming. We now have hope for one, but some of you here don't want to see that hope come to fruition.

Logic that.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

62. That's some run-of-the-mill right wing crack-pot thinkin' there

If you want some sort of personality cult governance-by-presumptive-personal-superiority dictatorship please have the integrity to agitate for it up front.

I am closer to Obama's understanding of economics than he is to an actual economist's understanding so in the appeal to authority game there's no particular reason to listen to me OR Obama.

[DainBramaged]

64. You are right, there is NO particular reason to listen to you.

Run for office or submit your resume to the Administration. When you win an election or gain a position in the Cabinet, I'll listen, but until then, we're done. When anybody on DU thinks they are smarter than Obama, they need their heads examined and a big red x from me. And that crack about Right-wing thinking? Smooth move "Click".

Bye.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

69. You have earned your ignored status the old fashioned way.

"When anybody on DU thinks they are smarter than Obama..."

You really need to look into some other form of government. It's obvious you lack the emotional stability to deal with anything but a monarchy.

Aloha means good-bye.

:hi:

[Imagevision]

78. ->Kurt_and_Hunter You have earned your ignored status the old fashioned way

[sampsonblk]

50. I agree - nt

[depakid]

54. Putting tax cuts over federal revenue sharing and infrastructure investment

is a very discouraging sign that not all that much has changed....

[Armstead]

60. I'd like to see more emphasis on anti-monopolistic reform -- and basic values

I like your idea about relieving consumer debt mentioned above.

In addition to shorter-term fixes, though, we need to go after some deeper structural and moral changes.
I believe we have to get after both the structural and moral basis of the crock of shit we find ourselves in.

For far too long wer have allow the financial sector -- and every other industry -- become too consolidated into the hands of too few corporations. And we have condoned the rapacious nasty and short-sighted behavior that has resulted.

These monpoliths like Citi and BOA and otehrs grew by sucking up smaller and mid sized banks and financial services firms. And we let GE -- a true bastard of a corporation -- get into that sector too. They all behaved badly. And because they are so big, their bad behavior has had such far reaching consequences.

On the otehr hanbd, most of the banks in the region where I live are still regional and small compared to that. And they behaved responsible during the go-go years. And now they are still reasonably healthy and are actually still in a position to be lending money.

[avaistheone1]

72. K&R Great post Kurt_and_Hunter!

I have the exact same take on this.

[bstender]

75. I'm also depressed about it, but have a different response

i agree with your assessment of the magnitude of the problem and the reactions to it, but disagree strongly with the keynesian shell-game solution.

you are dismayed by the solutions, all based on an assumption that the problem can be ridden out; that there is some expected cyclical self-correction to be awaited. (Though nobody can specify where that assumed corrective impetus is expected to come from.)

the problems with your analysis are:

1. the assumption of the severity of the fallout to the regular people is mostly hype blown up by the media blitz, but the big losers in this shakeout are the people at the top sitting on huge paper wealth. the hype and the subsequent debt-transfer plans are basically designed to mitigate that problem. (take their losses and shift it to you and me) yes, the bad debt is causing significant revaluation and this definately sucks for everyone, but the emergency wealth transfer is pure opportunism and the best it can hope for is to delay the pain for a while.

2. that this correction 'can't be ridden out'. of course it can. thinking that some giant wealth transfer needs to occur is the biggest bait and switch since the govt. took the dollar fiat. shitty as it might be, life will go on. and there's no reason to think that it can't be 10 times better in the rebuilding. having cars and TV's are not the only ways to generate happiness.

3. that this ponzi-based economic system is worth re-inflating. it is based on an older earth where the human population was on a rapid growth cycle fueled by almost free energy in the form of crude oil. We now know that limitless growth is not possible and that the cheap-energy curve has peaked, but the mind-set (and lots of significant prior investments) are lagging in acceptance of this reality. but it is reality and it will win in the end. the easiest way to deal with this current crisis is to adjust to reality. the sooner we do, the less pain we experience in the long run.

we are still talking about a long run arent we?

[Imagevision]

77. And your solution would be...? - um, the clock is ticking

[LWolf]

80. Then it's a good thing

that the OP answered this question, at least twice, before you ever posted it. Too bad the clock was ticking too quickly for you to read the conversation before you posted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8132827#8132988

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8132827#8132992