ESPN raised in interesting point, the role of black athletes leading to a black president

[charlie and algernon]

Outside the Lines devoted their episode to the role of sports and black athletes to social change and civil rights in America. They argued that guys like Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Jackie Robinson, and even Tony Dungy (first black coach to win super bowl) helped America to become color blind and so made it easier for a black president. One guy recalled the day Nelson Mendela was inagurated and instead of going to all the fancy dinners, Mendela went to a soccer game. When this guy asked Mendela about it, Mendela said he wanted to tell the people that he owed his presidency to sports. They raised the fact that because sports like the NBA are now 80% black, people no longer see color.

I'm curious to know what you think. What kind of role do you think sports has played in the civil rights movement?

[Kolesar]

1. The Baby Boomers taught their children not to be racist

And that is the kind of country we are turning into. Per your question, many driven and self confident athletes are great role models for the youth.

[Doctor_J]

4. But why did we teach them not to be racist?

I myself (I am 52) grew up in an integrated neighborhood, went to integrated schools, played on sports teams with blacks and hispanics. I was an avid sports participant and spectator, so of course watched Oscar Robertson, Gale Sayers, Fergie Jenkins, and the mostly black Boston Celtics ply their trades at a dazzling level. I think that sports contributed to MY lack of prejudice.

[HuskerDU]

11. I agree with you TOJ....

except that I didn't know any blacks as a child. But because of being a sports fan, I had a very positive image of blacks. Walter Payton and Vince Evans were my heroes as a kid.

[Kolesar]

39. That's a great account

My experience was different. My signal was the ~1970 vintage Boy Scout handbook where they purposefully placed a black Boy Scout on the cover. It was a start. My scoutmasters were early-Vietnam-era veterans who reinforced the message of equality. Union autoworkers

[knowledgeispwr]

2. I would disagree in that I don't believe people are 'colorblind'

And I'm not sure being 'colorblind' is desirable. We should be able to celebrate our differences, but it shouldn't keep us from treating everyone with dignity and respect.

I would also argue that while perhaps sports helped in some degree, it also leads some people to think that blacks can only be successful as athletes or entertainers. I remember being asked several times what sport I was playing because I was accepted to fairly prestigious public university. There was nothing about me that should have led people to believe I would being an athlete at that university other than my skin color.

[charlie and algernon]

5. why not both?

. Yes, we should continue to teach and remember the struggles of different races and groups, but I think you should still be able to look at someone and not see the color of their skin, but who they are and what they've done with their life.

[knowledgeispwr]

8. I'm not sure that we disagree

I *think* you are saying someone's skin color shouldn't affect how we value them as a person; I agree. What I am saying is that we shouldn't pretend that we don't look different; just as people have different color hair and eyes and have different heights and weights, we have different skin colors. For example, if I happened to be in a group of people and I was the only black person there, and a friend was trying to point me out to someone, I would fully expect them to say "he's the black guy over there." That would be a quick, simple, accurate way to point me out. Too often, when people say 'colorblind', they mean 'pretend people don't look different.' Again, I don't think you're saying that (correct me if I'm wrong), but I'm just making a point.

[charlie and algernon]

12. ah ok, i gotcha

yeah, we agree fully

[Number23]

29. Couldn't have said it better myself

The idea that being "color-blind" is an admirable trait is laughable. And it's a moot point because America is no where near color-blind anyway...

[mmonk]

3. Indirectly, it has helped.

It was part of the acceptance process a largely racist nation had to go through to cast off its demons. Sports played a role in that process.

[Captain Hilts]

6. Seeing black men as NFL quarterbacks and head coaches and generals and admirals...

makes it not such a Big Deal.

You can't draw this analogy without mentioning the military.

[NashVegas]

14. That's Very True

Before there was a Tony Dungy, there was Warren Moon, who refused to switch positions from and play anything other than quarterback, first in the jump from high school QB to college, and then from college quarterback to pro tight-end.

The NFL resisted him in the draft, forcing him to go to Canada. It was the success he had there that got the NFL interested in a black QB.




:toast:

[Captain Hilts]

16. Perfect example.

And in the military I'll cite Adm. Bruce Grooms, submariner, submarine captain, head of all subs Atlantic Fleet, superintendent of the Naval Academy.

Seeing whites take orders from blacks is commonplace in sports and the military.

[KittyWampus]

7. IMO, popular culture including sports helps. And it's not just stature and fame. It's also money.

[Jennicut]

9. Michael Jordan was really looked up to for our generation, Gen X

Whether is right or wrong to emulate a sports figure, he did pave the way toward making african americans be accepted in any top position, including the presidency.

[iamjoy]

10. Hollywood May Have More To With It

We have seen African American presidents handle extreme situations - Morgan Freeman (President Beck in Deep Impact) and Dennis Haysbert (President David Palmer on 24) to name two.

This is not to say that these two actors have faced greater challenges than Jackie Robinson, but as Americans saw Blacks as confident leaders in a crisis on the screen, they accepted it. Yes, it as fiction and we bought it. In the case of President Beck, it was never really mentioned that he was African American. When the country became aware of our current crisis in September, Barack Obama could not have seemed more appropriate for the role as our leader than if Hollywood had cast him.

[charlie and algernon]

13. i think just having black actors helps too

Sidney Poitier, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, Dennis Haysbert, LaVar Burton, etc, have been on the screen for decades and are respected as actors and seen as good people. People born in the 70s and later have ALWAYS seen blacks in prominant places, whether it be in movies, sports, the military, and at school and work.

[Captain Hilts]

17. Yes - and there is NOTHING comparable for women. When it comes to women...

Hollywood is as sexist as it's ever been.

[Nedsdag]

36. Well, maybe not in Hollywood, but it mass media, there is one name:

Oprah.

[Zynx]

15. I think it helped working class people who may have had racial prejudices become

more comfortable with prominent black people. I know a lot of people who may have respected MLK Jr., but he didn't matter much to them. However, many spoke very well of Walter Payton, Michael Jordan, etc. I think it did help them get over a lot of hang ups.

[Blue_Tires]

18. what did jordan ever do?

it's not like there were no black megastars in the NBA in his heyday (he also was constantly criticized for keeping his mouth shut on social/political issues)...I didn't see the episode, but if people like Ali, Roberto Clemente and Jim Brown didn't earn mentions, then that show was a waste

[charlie and algernon]

19. Jordan was mentioned in the context of being THE megastar and role model

someone who was on TV ALL the time. I didn't catch all of it, so don't know if they talked about Clemente, but Ali and Jim Brown were definitely mentioned.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. Didn't he invent basketball shoes that could make kids fly for a mere couple hundred bucks?

I think that's it.

[H2O Man]

20. Nelson Mandela was, of course,

a former boxer; by no coincidence, boxing has more of a direct connection to the world of politics than any other sport. Two quick examples: The armed forces were integrated largely because of the actions of two soldiers -- Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Robinson -- who happened to be world champions while they served.

Barack Obama is friends with former champion Muhammad Ali. It was Ali's CO case that defined the connection between sports and the Vietnam war. Though "white America" was split at the time, and many white citizens wanted Ali to be imprisoned for his religious beliefs, in time the majority of the country came to realize that The Champ was right, and the war was wrong.

[Doctor_J]

21. Arrgh. Why didn't someone tell me that JC Watts was the main guest?

I watched the noon rerun. I should have known that Bill Bennett's pal Bob Ley would feature a Repuke.

[sayso7]

22. Not only athletes and movie stars

But also black teachers, firemen, police officers, principles, neighbors, classmates, friends, bosses, coworkers etc

[11 Bravo]

25. Welcome to DU, sayso7.

:toast:

[fortyfeetunder]

23. Think it was early politics--

the military and education (through legal desegregation). Entertainment/sports benefited as a side result but it was still carried out in a segregated society, and I think still slow to change.

For example how many African-American head coaches in Div I football?

[Drunken Irishman]

26. I think it's a mix of everything. Movies, sports, public figures.

Movies have opened the door to racial acceptance and some even suggesting that it's normal to have a black president.

Obviously sports first took grip because white people began cheering for black ballplayers.

MLK always said that Jackie Robinson was instrumental in his own development.

[nickgutierrez]

27. It's more complicated than that.

The civil rights movement owed a lot to Jackie Robinson, because he was an amazing example of a person who simply refused to give in. There's no way anybody should have been put through the kind of hell he was - threats and harassment on a nightly basis - and yet he simply went about his business of proving to people that he belonged. He changed a lot of minds, I'd suspect. I'd also suspect that the stress took some 20 years off of his life.

But I have a hard time regarding Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods as civil rights icons. They're blatantly apolitical ("Republicans buy sneakers, too." - Jordan), calculatingly non-controversial, and are far more the beneficiaries of progress than symbols of better things to come. That's not necessarily a criticism of those two, since I don't think they have the same level of responsibility that somebody like Robinson had. The real sign of progress is not that these men might be the best to have ever done what they have done, but that their struggles to reach that peak have not been impeded by those same outside forces.

I would still doubt the idea that we're color-blind as a nation. As long as people like Race-Baiting Rush Limbaugh hold positions of presumed influence, we won't ever be color-blind. Sports has opened some doors, and it has opened some minds, but I still think that some people compartmentalize sports away from the "more real" forms of reality, in their daily lives. It took all kinds of people, in all walks of life, to open those doors, and there are still quite a number of doors yet to be opened.

[madmom]

28. A personal experience, when I was a pukey 7th grader, I started jr. hi. after the semester had

already started. Being new to the city, school, jr.hi. and to a racially diverse school system, I was surely out of my element. The school tried to keep segregation alive by putting "groups" of peers together when doling out lockers, etc. Since I came in after the start, my locker was smack in the middle of a group of blacks students, me being the only white,also female. In the second week a group of about 4-5 black young ladies were harassing me, name calling, pushing each other into me, just kid stuff to make them look tough to each other.A voice from behind me said "leave her alone, she didn't do anything to you!" and they stopped and never did it again, in fact we became "almost" friends. The black guy who said this faded into the crowd. I have idea who he was or what his name was. Now this situation could have gone either way. I could have hated black people because of the girls, or I could suck it up and say they were just high school kids and let it go with no racial overtones.

Now with me growing up in an atmosphere of ignorance and bigotry (my family is from a state that thrives on this stuff) my parents were always bigots, as was my siblings,how and why did I decide to take the other path? I am the only liberal, the only dem.,the only one who has no problems inter-acting with "those people". I often call myself the black sheep in the family. I have often wondered about this, and have yet to figure it out.

[Number23]

30. What else would you expect from ESPN?

It's like Vogue magazine saying that the rise of Iman and Beverly Johnson paved the way to a black president. Both are correct and grotesque oversimplifications at the same time...

[ecstatic]

31. It's not just sports. Integration in all fields

has led up to this moment. As far as the role sports has played, I'm not sure. Do people view athletes with respect and dignity, or is it all about performance?

[rocktivity]

32. Civil rights and pro sports definitely helped each other pave the way toward President Obama

I can remember the good old days when black pro athletes were supposed to be grateful for the "physical" roles: throwing, running, hurting, slam-dunking. But then they started getting uppity and going at the more "mentally challenging" and "leadership-oriented" athletic roles: pitching, catching, quarterbacking. But did they stop there? Nooooo, they started wanting to coach and manage, too. Then they had to gall to want to have OWNERSHIP roles of the teams. Then the unkindest cut of all--they broke out of traditional "black sports" roles altogether and invaded the final havens of athletic segregation--golf and tennis. Look out, NASCAR!

:rofl:
rocknation

[WinkyDink]

33. Why do you think Tiger Woods was there today? ;)

[TTUBatfan2008]

34. Tiger I think has played a big role...

Even racist old white ladies like my grandma like him. You can't help but be blown away by Tiger's talent. He is a national treasure. There probably won't ever be a golfer as successful as him again. The Tour is now so competitive that his dominance is even more staggering.

[WinkyDink]

35. I loved Nicklaus ( and some lesser, but more handsome, lights---heh), but I'm dang glad I'm living

in the Tiger Era!

[TTUBatfan2008]

37. I wish I could have seen Jack play...

same with Arnie and all the other greats from the past. But I am also grateful to have been around for Tiger. He is the reason I started playing in 8th grade (I'm 23 now).

[rocktivity]

38. The only thing I've known Tiger to say publicly about Obama

is that he attended one of his speeches found him to be "impressive and inspiring." But he also said, "...(W)e'll see what happens down the road." No doubt Obama's mixed race gave Tiger a sense of kinship. But his statement makes me suspect that he didn't endorse Obama for a purely "practical" reason: He didn't think he had a realistic chance of winning!

On the other hand, maybe Tiger showed up purely out of revenge: While introducing McCain, a Rethug suggested that Obama was nothing more than a "political Tiger Woods."

:headbang:
rocknation