Dear President Obama: Please dump Tim Geithner and dump him fast

[cali]

he's an egregious tax cheat. get rid of him.

[TTUBatfan2008]

1. Agreed...

Screw Geithner.

[NJmaverick]

2. I am not so sure of that

Should the U.S. treasury secretary know how to do his own taxes?

Maybe not, say payroll lawyers, accountants and tax professors, who consider Timothy Geithner’s failure to pay four years of Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes to be a fairly common mistake — even for a top economist chosen to run the Treasury Department, including the Internal Revenue Service.

“This is a very discrete issue,” said Michael Lloyd, an employment tax lawyer at Miller & Chevalier. “If you’re not a payroll tax lawyer, you’re not immersed in this, you are probably not getting it at first blush.”



http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17468.html

[cali]

5. It's not just his failure to pay payroll taxes

it's his taking child dependent tax credits meant for the middle class and working poor, for enrolling his kids in tony summer camps.

And sorry, he can afford the best accountants- and they should get it all right.

[CTyankee]

13. He couldn't possibly qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit! Is there another one?

The EITC as I recall (and I am no expert) was income tested so if you made over a certain amount you wouldn't get it.

[cali]

16. please read

Q: Aren't there some other mistakes, too?

A: One of the more egregious errors was that Geithner, over three different tax years, claimed that expenses for the summer camps he'd sent his children to qualified for the child and dependent-care tax credit. This credit is for working parents with children younger than 13 who send them to preschool or after-school care. IRS documents and commercially available tax software clearly define what qualifies.

"That's one anyone who has kids and has filled out that form knows that it's wrong. That's really odd," said Paul Caron, a prominent tax-law expert and associate dean at the University of Cincinnati College of Law.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/v-print/story/59703.html

[CTyankee]

19. How was he qualified to do this? Isn't there a means test used by the IRS?

Good lord, there ought to be a limit on how much of a tax credit a person making his kind of income could take. I'm really confused because this tells me that all kinds of people making all kinds of money are simply helping themselves to tax credits they don't need and the IRS is looking the other way...

[cali]

20. I don't know how he did it, but what I really don't like is that he did it.

It's just wrong.

[CTyankee]

31. Well, it shouldn't be allowed. If Obama is smart he'll see this as

something ordinary people HATE about government leaders: that sense of entitlement, that they don't have to follow the rules the rest of us have to follow.

This is NOT a good way for Obama to start his presidency. He needs people's trust.

[demo dutch]

37. Cali you really need to ready the details!!! This is a non- issue, See post #36

[anigbrowl]

48. I don't agree. This is an easy error to make.

It's not like he tried to avoid or evade the taxes by giving the wrong information to the IRS.

[karynnj]

39. Here is a link to the IRS document explaining the credit

From the table on page 11, it seems that there is no upper limit on adjusted income for this credit - there are ranges where people get a higher percent, but there is no income cap.

The current (2008) document is very clear on camps - page 7 says very clearly that overnight camps are not included, but day camps are. (I don't know what type of camp his kids went to.) I don't know if earlier years were as clear.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p503.pdf

[scheming daemons]

23. I've taken the dependent tax credits before...

...there's no "means test".

If you're kids are in daycare (and summer camp counts), you qualify.



Whether it is right or wrong is an issue.... but it was a perfectly legal tax credit for him to take. Why wouldn't he?


That's like saying he shouldn't claim his mortgage interest on his Schedule A because that is meant for "working families".

[MyUserNameIsBroken]

26. summer camps

Day camps count, not sleep-away camps. I believe the issue was that he had his kids at the latter.

That said, I don't view any of his tax issues as a problem, since I think they're all typical of how MOST Americans deal with deductions: they push them as far as they can, and thus sometimes over the line.

I'm more disturbed by his failure while at the NY Fed to actually try to do anything he suggested to the big financial institutions. Then again, I'm not sure anyone could have made them fix things with Bush at the helm.

[karynnj]

41. Actually, I think that most people try to follow the rules

on most things. I wonder what they used for school year child care. You have to have both spouses working to claim the credit. Most people I know who sent kids to sleep away camp had day care expenses during the school year. Could they have had an off the books day care provider?

(It may well be that his wife worked part time - and fit her hours in when the kids were in school)

At least in the 2008 IRS document, the rule is explained as clearly as you said it on page 7 - and it had its own little header "Camps". http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p503.pdf

[karynnj]

44. It depends if they are sleepaway or not

[mrreowwr_kittty]

54. It looks like this is what it boils down to.

Was it an overnight camp or a day camp? In which case it could be an honest mistake on the part of Geithner.

[karynnj]

55. true - also earlier years may not have spelled it out as clearly

It might not have been.

[Saturday]

6. I may not know HOW to do my taxes but I do know.....

that they need to be done every year and I make sure I have them done.

[NJmaverick]

8. Read the whole article, it's a very complex issue

[AZ Criminal JD]

27. That's what most tax cheats say

[NJmaverick]

30. never mind, it's clear you don't want to deal with the facts

keep jumping to conclusions and flying off the handle, it's probably good excercise.

[NRaleighLiberal]

7. I don't believe that for a moment. I just started consulting with a UK company,

and the first thing my accountant told me was to be sure to figure and pay the taxes on it. And I am very, very small potatoes, it is not that much money. But laws are laws, and right is right.

[NJmaverick]

11. One accountant said his $4000 tax software would have made the mistake

so I am not sure people are being fair.

[NRaleighLiberal]

3. Yep. He may be smart, he may be able, he may be perfect for the job. But clean he is not.

And after what we went through for the last 8 years, we don't need to be giving gifts to the opposition for their inevitable charges of hypocrisy. I listened to Big Eddie Schultz rant endlessly about this yesterday - though Ed can go over the top, I think he is spot on with this one.

[SuperTrouper]

4. Yes, and nominate Robert Reich

[Sebastian Doyle]

57. I'll second that!

Reich would have been a much better choice in the first place. And most definitely now.

[Phx_Dem]

58. If Obama wanted Reich, he would have nominated him. n/t

[anonymous171]

59. NO MORE CLINTONITES!

[PVnRT]

9. He also bumbled keeping an eye on Citigroup while running the Fed in New York

[Occam Bandage]

10. I would prefer to see Geithner dropped, but not specifically because of his taxes.

It's not inconceivable that someone would erroneously fail to consider that their IMF job counted as self-employment for tax purposes, even if they had been informed of such several months prior. I'd prefer to see him dropped simply because I think he's going to continue the culture of lax and overly-trusting oversight, and his taxes are just another example of him failing to ensure that all 't's are crossed and 'i's are dotted, when that will be a very important aspect of his job.

[CTyankee]

14. A very good point. The issue is also one of "appearance of honesty."

The last thing Obama wants is the top economic guy looking like he cheated on his taxes and was too important to pay attention like the rest of us schnooks.

Obama should consider this.

[theoldman]

12. Is there a law that requires a person to pay SS tax?

I know that a business has to pay the tax for their employees but I do not think a self-employed person has to pay the tax. You only have to pay the SS tax for ten years to collect on retirement. IRS rules are tricky and I would bet that hardly anyone understands them clearly.

[karynnj]

45. Yes you do - and the IRS rule is pretty clear here

Here is the link - http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98846,00.html

Click on who has to pay this tax - it is pretty unambiguous. (It is true that there are cases where people can be self employed and not need to pay it - but that happens if you have another job (working for an employer) where you make over the maximum income taxed.

[anigbrowl]

47. What's not obvious is that you also have to pay the employer share

First time I did my taxes as self-employed, I misunderstood the same thing and only paid employee contributions, not realizing that being self-employed meant I had to pay double.

[karynnj]

51. That makes sense and I could see how that could easily be done wrong

[scheming daemons]

15. Treasury secretary is too important to dump him over this

A) He paid back IN FULL everything he owed. As one who had to deal with tax problems in the past, I can sympathize. The bottom line is his account is "all square" now. This isn't a disqualifying event, unless he had failed to make restitution.


B) He's the right person for the job at this particular juncture in our nation's history.


You may disagree with "B"... and if so, that is a valid reason to ask for Obama to dump him.


But "A" is not a valid reason.

[lamp_shade]

17. Oh. It's you.

[cali]

18. lol

and? c'mon you can insult me better than that, can't you?

[scheming daemons]

21. It's good to see you're over your outrage concerning the imaginary snub of Howard Dean

...and have moved on to a new outrage.
:eyes:

[cali]

24. Nope. I'm still disapppointed in how Dean was treated

and tough shit for the likes of you that I'm criticizing Geithner. Live with it, little daemon. Just live with it. Or let your wee head explode. It's fine with me either way.

:rofl:

[ecstatic]

22. If there is a better, more qualified option, then I agree

Wealthy tax evaders disgust me, of course, but our economy truly needs help right now. We need the very best to be in charge, and I'm willing to take Obama/Geithner's explanation of it being a simple mistake if Geithner is truly the best choice to lead the treasury.

[WI_DEM]

25. I agree, why should regular folks honestly pay taxes if the Treasury Sec doesn't have to?

[anigbrowl]

46. He does have to, but it's an understandable mistake

I made a similar error when I first filed as self-employed - I paid my own social security etc., not realizing I was also supposed to pay the employer portion for myself. The instructions are not that obvious.

[wmbrew0206]

28. Brillant idea. Lets dump the Treasury nominee during the middle of

an economic crisis at a time when the only thing hold the market above 8,000 is that Wall Street is very comfortable with this nominee.

[cali]

29. Geithner is in real trouble

and the confirmation hearing will be a mess if not a bloodbath. If you think dem Senators will have his back over this stuff, think again.

[wmbrew0206]

33. BS.

Republicans love this guy because he was head of the NY Fed and is a free market guy. Democrats are going to give Obama what he wants, and he wants Geithner at Treasury.

Neither party want to throw the markets into a tail spin at this point by throwing all kinds of uncertainty out there over who will be at Treasury. If that happened the market could hit 7,500 to 7,000 easily.

So who is going to oppose him again?

[cali]

35. haha. you actually believe that the repukes are so into this guy that they'll

bypass an opportunity to take a shot at Obama and feed their base?

:rofl:

And please remember that quite a few appointees have been done in by problems like Geithner's.

[wmbrew0206]

38. Put your money where your mouth is then.

I'll bet you $50 donated to the charity of your choice that this nominee goes through.

The republican's wallets are more important to them and their base right now than a chance to take a small shot at Obama. They'll save that for Holder.

No other appointee has had to fix such a major mess and whose withdraw would cause such turbulence.

[cali]

40. no, I'm not going to bet you anything

I'm simply stating my opinion. live with it. If I'm wrong, you can have taunting rights. If you're wrong, I have them.

[crimsonblue]

62. You're completely wrong...

both sides of the aisle said that this issue was ultimately unimportant and that his qualifications are impeccable. Get the fuck over yourself. Geitner is the smartest man that could be treasury secretary.

[Zynx]

67. Do you have evidence of this?

[TheKentuckian]

32. Lots of pretty smart people feel the guy is nearly irreplaceable

because he probably has the best understanding of what is going on with TARP. Nobody is truly irreplaceable but I don't think there is much question that the talent pool in this area is paper thin and even thinner if you're looking for someone that isn't utterly bought into trickle down.

I'm not in love with the guy but he is almost surely one of the few qualified people that is even close to reasonable in outlook.

[AspenRose]

34. I agree

PE Obama, please do not give your enemies ammunition.

[demo dutch]

36. Cali.. this is a non-issue .. You really need to read the details! During his time with IMF Geithner

During his time with the IMF, Geithner was required to pay both Social Security and Medicare taxes for himself as both employer and employee. The taxes in question related to Geithner's employment with the International Monetary Fund from 2001-2003. The IMF doesn't withhold money for U.S. taxes (this is both the employee portion and the employer portion) and it adds the approximate amount to the employee's pay, and then the employee has to forward tax payments (the employee portion and the employer portion) on to the IRS, according to the papers released by the Senate.

It appears that Geithner forwarded some tax payments. For instance, he owed Social Security tax to the U.S. government. He did forward the employee portion to the IRS, but did not send the portion normally paid by the employer, which he was also supposed to do. The IRS had previously examined Geithner' taxes for 2003 and 2004, according to the documents, and he had agreed to pay additional amounts, but the IRS waived penalties. The records show some other adjustments and amended returns filed by Geithner for other years, too. Infact he paid the taxes once the mistake was pointed out by the IRS right away.

An honest mistake according to most experts!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99361676

What's irritating about these kind of posts, is that people don't inform themselves before posting nonsense

[NJmaverick]

42. You last sentence should be required reading for all of DU

What's irritating about these kind of posts, is that people don't inform themselves before posting nonsense.

I agree one should be careful and have a solid factual base before making bold or sweeping statements. We have seen similar mistakes made on fake Obama vs Dean feud as well as many other issues.

[karynnj]

43. This ignores that Cali is speaking of other problems

in his tax returns.

I agree that it could have been confusing as to whether it was required to pay the medicare and SS taxes.

[NJmaverick]

49. I looked into the other problems and the information available is sketchy at best

certainly not enough to declare Tim Geithner unfit.

[karynnj]

52. I hope that is the case

I think he needs to get all these issues out and explained clearly. The Democrats have so far had his back - and that is the right thing to do only as long as it is clear there was no intentional cheating. If there was any, I don't think it likely that he is the only one who could do this job and I would prefer our Senators not ignore anything that is wrong.

[demo dutch]

60. The other problem is even less of an issue, and has to do with his part-time housekeeper whose

whose immigration papers expired in the last three months she worked for him. She later received a green card restoring her legal status and Geithner apparently paid all the required employment taxes.

People make honest mistakes on their taxes ALL the time, that's why we have an IRS which monitors tax issues. As long as it's corrected I don't see a problem with Geihtner, since none of it appears deliberate.

[Jennicut]

50. Mu husband forgot to do the same thing, he is not a tax cheat, just a simple mistake

We really have bigger things to do that concentrate on minor mistakes made by someone on their taxes. The domestic worker he had also never told anyone she let her visa lapse.

[Runcible Spoon]

53. I don't care WHY he is dumped, I just want him OUT

Had his dirty fingers in IMF and AIG bailout, what's not to love :sarcasm:

DUMP HIM, there are PLENTY of others who can do this job, perhaps even a few who aren't complicit with the corporate handouts that seem so vogue these days :puke:

[Phx_Dem]

56. That's not going to happen. Nor should it.

Tax experts (and even Republicans) agree that the mistake Geithner made is very common. Al Franken made a tax error too for just about the same amount. Should he not be seated as a Senator?

If they don't want people to make mistakes on their taxes, they need to reform the 30 trillion page tax code. Not to mention, does anyone really think Geithner prepares his own tax return? His accountant (likely) made a mistake. It's been rectified. Next.

[AtomicKitten]

63. As a self-employed person myself, one requires a sherpa to navigate the current tax forms.

This is just another example of opportunism attacking someone perceived as vulnerable.

It's politics, baby. Pure and simple.

[crimsonblue]

61. give me a goddamn break....

Geitner is the only man in Washington that fully understands the TARP program. He is THE BEST qualified individual for the position. His tax errors were common, accidental, and unimportant.

[totodeinhere]

72. Yes. n/t

[Vinca]

64. I like the idea that the guy who will oversee the IRS can't figure

out the tax code, either. Maybe it will motivate him to have it simplified. We're also self-employed and the smartest people on earth can't figure some of this stuff out. When we first became self-employed, we screwed up the forms for about 5 years straight. When they finally dragged us in for an audit, it turned in our favor. We refiled the forms as instructed and got thousands of dollars back.

[avaistheone1]

65. K&R No tax cheats to head Treasury.

No way. No how.

:kick:

[bvar22]

66. Not just Geithner...

Obama needs to dump the whole "Economic Team".

On both Wall Street and in Congress, the same old crooks and party hacks who succeeded in producing the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression have now ended up with even more power and more control than they had before the election.

<snip>


Similarly, delivering the exact opposite of "change," President-elect Barack Obama is putting some of the nation's most notorious foxes in charge of guarding the chicken coop by way of a proposed economic team that Jackie Calmes, The New York Times correspondent on national economic policy, calls "a virtual Rubin constellation."

Obama's "choices for his top economic advisers -- Timothy F. Geithner as Treasury secretary, Lawrence H. Summers as senior White House economics adviser and Peter R. Orszag as budget director -- are past proteges of (former Treasury Secretary Robert) Rubin," explains Calmes, formerly the chief political correspondent for The Wall Street Journal's Washington bureau.

Geithner, picked to succeed Treasury secretary Henry Paulson, was Rubin's undersecretary for international affairs at Treasury; Orszag was a dependable Rubin ally during his years at Treasury; and Summers served as deputy Treasury secretary under Rubin.

Rubin, who served in the Clinton administration and currently is a top economic adviser to President-elect Barack Obama, has pocketed tens of millions of dollars from now twice bailed-out Citigroup.

<more>

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/reiland/s_604650.html

Fudging a tax return is nothing compared to what these guys have done for a "living".

[Zynx]

68. That was an ignorant statement. Look at what Volcker proposed today and get back to me.

[bvar22]

73. So which onesof this group of well connected insiders....

...from the gilded age of Anti-LABOR, Free Trade, De-regulation, Rubinesque Trickle Down, Bubble Growing, Corporate Empowering Economic Advisers have a track record that you believe makes them worthy of formulating Economic policy for the Obama administration?

[onefreespiritedchick]

69. Yes, I agree.

A "mistake" is one thing. However, he did not pay his taxes from 2001-2004, only covering '03 and '04 after being vetted.

[stillcool]

70. Agreed.

[Usrename]

71. This is true.

Only people who have never made any mistakes should be allowed in our government.