John Kerry not happy with Tax Credits for companies who hire new workers

[Thrill]

Conrad Agrees.

Pelosi wants Bush Tax Cuts Repealed ASAP.

Sounds like there are going to be some serious debates on this package.

Who knew, it took a Democratic President for the Dems in Congress to get a backbone

[sandnsea]

1. That was his idea in 2004

I'm going to assume the media is not reporting this correctly - or else something else is going on behind the scenes.

[Cha]

2. It's almost guaranteed the media is

not reporting correctly.

[blm]

25. As I recall Kerry's tax cuts were targeted for small businesses hiring US workers.

I also recall that US companies who used foreign addresses to escape US taxes were targeted for penalties.

Plus, his proposal was made before the serious collapse of the economy that began to show in earnest by 2006.

[FrenchieCat]

30. This is the same proposal as far as we know, since details aren't out on it.....yet.

Indeed, Obama's proposal is aimed at small business hiring or rehiring US workers.

It is a way of stemming lost jobs and unemployment as far as I can tell. I'm not quite sure why this wouldn't be a good idea in this environment. Can someone give me a bigger clue? Thanks!

[blm]

31. Senators may be exaggerating this deliberately knowing the debate about to unfold with GOP.

I suspect Obama was deliberately vague knowing what was to come and to give Dem senators the room to flesh it out as part of that debate. Wouldn't put it past him, since he knows how the senate works and how the senate Republicans view these matters.

[sandnsea]

38. That's the most likely possibility

I need to remember that the majority has to "play" different than when we were the minority. Control the debate and all of that.

[FrenchieCat]

49. I kind of alluded to that myself in an earlier post about something

Nancy Pelosi stated in reference to repeal vs. allowing the Bush Tax cut to expire. Almost as though they are building superficial opposition in order that a compromise will be what Obama is asking for, with a bit more thrown in; playing Devils' advocate and such. I'm hoping they, the Dems, are all in coordinated concert strategy on these things....but of course, its kind of hard to tell.

[sandnsea]

53. I missed it

But it makes sense. Kind of a strange way to go about things, but nothing else makes sense to me.

[Hippo_Tron]

60. Agreed, bluff that you are against something you're actually for

That way the other side thinks that you're actually giving them something in the bargaining stage when in reality you aren't.

[sandnsea]

40. I agree

I've got no idea why JK would oppose this and I don't care how many "explanations" people come up with. "The economy has changed" makes no sense to me. That's all the more reason to help small business.

[Two Americas]

32. correct

That was my understanding as well. I disagreed with that, in fact that was one of the most important factors for me in deciding which candidate to support in both 2004 and 2008.

He may have changed his mind. That would be good news, in my opinion.

Tax breaks to corporations as an indirect way to help workers is a variation on trickle down economics.


.

[blm]

76. There was no tax breaks to corporations, only small businesses.

.

[firedupdem]

3. Why would any democrat be against credits for companies that

HIRE people? I'm hoping this is incorrect.

However, if they want to start this shit, we need to get on the phones and start writing letters and making a big stink!

[OhioChick]

5. Maybe Kerry doesn't want corps to assume that could mean "overseas." n/t

[Thrill]

6. They claim it won't work. Its 'misdirected' Should just put all the money in infrastructure

They rolled over for Bush. But now............

[karynnj]

48. It sounds like most of the Finance committee Senators are saying

that given the current state of the economy (which is MUCH worse than in 2003) these measures will NOT work to push companies to expand their workforces or to retain workers. This is true if the companies have excess inventory that they can not sell.

This is why many economists have spoken of this being a time where the government is the only entity with the willingness and ability to spend money. This is consistent with Kerry's speeches over the last few years - especially a speech given in Lynn MA this last October. He was calling for what sounded to me like a modern version of the FDR type programs.

The role of the Senate is NOT to simply pass what the President proposes. Kerry is pushing for things he has spoken of in MA. (I think the uniformity of the response of quoted Finance committee Democrats - from the liberal Kerry and Wyden to Conrad and Baucus - shows that the Obama team clearly did not consult this committee. The odd thing here is that the SENATE is backing the more progressive FDR like approach where Obama's team is pushing more centrist ideas - yet people here are attacking the Senate.)

[politicasista]

56. It's because PE Obama hasn't been sworn in yet

And there is some need to protect PE Obama here. I say protect because to his "hardcore supporters," this story is making it seem like people (i.e. DC establishment) are trying to undermine Obama are against his message of change, or anything he puts forth. Both which false. (That's the MSM for you :grr:).

People are trying to work with Obama not work against him.

[karynnj]

64. Not to mention - the Finance committee members are uncharacterisicly

pushing for more progressive action than Obama. (Obama is the more conservative DLCish here.)

[politicasista]

65. Yep. That is weird n/t

[Xipe Totec]

9. How about companies that lay off to make room for new employees?

they not only reduce costs by replacing experienced employees with new hires, they get a tax cut to boot!

[firedupdem]

11. I would think their would be safeguards in place for that type of

mischief. That was the first thing I thought of when I heard of this but I think they would surely have some way of determining how many people a company let go in a year and how many they hired. :shrug:

[awoke_in_2003]

21. Never assume...

that congress critters think logically.

[Two Americas]

35. because it is trickle down

The reason why some Democrats might be against tax breaks to corporations as an indirect way to help workers, is because it is a variation on trickle down economics.

[sui generis]

4. so they get tax credits for hiring people in India?

I think companies operating in the U.S. who hire and retain workers in the U.S. should get tax credits.

I think companies who choose outsourcing over hiring equivalent skill in the U.S. should get tax penalties to offset any per capita gain for filling that position.

[OhioChick]

7. Exactly. n/t

[Thrill]

8. Considering Obama said during the campaign it would be for people

hiring here in the US. Again thats the point to create jobs HERE.

But thats not the reason for their objection.

[firedupdem]

12. Thanks...he's not dumb. People seem to think he's not thinking about

all angles of this issue.

[Two Americas]

37. false choice

The choice is not between agreeing with and trusting everything a politician does and thinking they are "dumb."

[globalvillage]

10. Link to statements from Finance Comm.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/senate-dems-doubt-obamas-tax-credit-idea-2009-01-08.html

I agree with them. It won't help.

In Obama's defense, though, he's just 'floating an idea'. Nothing wrong with that.

[firedupdem]

13. Thanks for this....it's funny they can say what WON"T work but

they have no ideas themselves. Fucking Amazing!

[globalvillage]

15. Posted below n/t

[karynnj]

50. They have ideas - and they have spoken of them

The simplest description is money for infastructure and to the states to deal with the costs they face due to teh economic downturn.

[brentspeak]

73. Wait, why do you claim they "have no ideas themselves"?

[globalvillage]

14. They want to create new jobs

Sen John Kerry, D-Mass., said, "I'd rather spend the money on the infrastructure, on direct investment, on energy conversion, on other kinds of things that much more directly, much more rapidly and much more certainly create a real job."

http://www.newstimes.com/national/ci_11406750


I think this is a healthy debate. No reason it shouldn't happen. Sen. Kerry has never held back his statements objecting to Bush's proposals. It's not about Obama, it's about the best way to restore the economy.

[sandnsea]

18. This was John Kerry's proposal

I don't know what his problem is, but this is a bunch of bullshit.

[globalvillage]

19. It was his proposal before the economy tanked

I think they're looking at what would have a near term impact to restore the economy.
It's the beginning of the debate. I think we need more than a couple soundbites to draw an informed conclusion.

[sandnsea]

20. Which makes even less sense

Government spending takes at least a year to even get through the contracting phase. A tax cut could be almost immediate. We still need to help keep jobs in this country, and help employers pay a living wage.

Sorry. I don't know what he's thinking on this one, I really don't.

[globalvillage]

22. His employer tax incentive was to keep jobs here

rather than ship them overseas.
I believe the Finance Committee is saying this isn't just about retention, it's about new job creation, and hiring incentives for companies that aren't currently selling enough goods and services isn't going to solve the problem.
I think the governors said they have projects waiting for funding. Maybe that's where they're headed.
We need more info. Is there anything on the Finance site yet?

[sandnsea]

24. There is more

I'll just wait to let this shake out. The Republicans said we had to have a vigorous debate, maybe some key Democrats are ranting around to jumpstart the vigorous debate.

[blm]

26. Which may also be why Obama was fairly vague on this, to give the room for the Dems to flesh it out

in their debate with the Republicans.

[Mass]

33. Ask most progressive economists what their problem is, rather than ranting because somebody

criticizes Obama. They all said that there were too many tax cuts in the package, and that there needed to be more public investments. May be they are right and Obama is wrong to try pushing this package. This could happen.

[sandnsea]

51. *I've* criticized Obama, repeatedly

And I also criticize Kerry - and Krugman - when warranted. The tax credit for new employees was a good idea 5 years ago and it's a good idea today. If there needs to be more infrastructure spending, advocate for it. But don't attack one of the good things that working people actually voted for.

[Two Americas]

39. fantastic

Good for him.

He has framed this issue correctly and made a very powerful and clear statement here, and one that is in line with the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party.

Enough with trickle down economics in all of its forms and guises. Return some of the money that the fats cats have stolen from the working people, and give it directly to the people and to the people's needs, don't give it back to the same fat cats that caused the problems in the hope that it will somehow eventually trickle down to the workers.

[karynnj]

54. Here is a speech he gave at a college in Lynn MA this October

http://www.jkmediasource.org/node/163

Even in October 2007, in the speech he wrote in 2006 for what would have been a 2008 run - Kerry was speaking of an economy that was nowhere near as strong as it was in 2003/2004 - here is a link to the Economic Fanueil Hall speech - the last of 5 Faneuil Hall speeches. http://www.johnkerry.com/multimedia/entry/faneuil_hall_economic_address/

[Two Americas]

58. thanks

I know you have been a tireless advocate for Senator Kerry. Thanks for the links to the speeches.

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. Backbone? Democrats are the reason that Bush's tax cuts were not permanent

[Thrill]

17. LOL Thats a win?

Should I list the several other times they haven't shown a backbone?

[OwnedByFerrets]

23. Who the hell is this Kerry fellow and why should I give a damn about his opinion

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Phoonzang]

27. Why don't we just fucking give up? I mean everyone's turning on Obama before

he's even in office. This party is a fucking joke. Sure its' natural have disagreements but to turn on each other so publicly while the media and Republicans look on and laugh....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_taxes

It's embarrassing really. That'll teach me to get excited and engaged in politics again.

[globalvillage]

28. No one's turning on Obama

There is a debate over the best way to stimulate the economy and create new jobs. Presenting their ideas is what Congress and the President are each supposed to do.
The media will try to make it into a battle, but I'm pretty sure it's not. Obama doesn't want 'yes men' like Bush had, and the Congress has to regain its autonomy. This is healthy.

[Phoonzang]

36. I hope you're right....

It just gets me to have been so "up" now to see so much intraparty discord.

[globalvillage]

41. I was at Sen. Kerry's swearing in reception on Tuesday

And he had nothing but praise for Obama and great expectations for the new administration. Sen. Kerry was Obama's most effective surrogate. You think he's going to turn on him because they have slightly different ideas about how to recover from Bush's mess?

As Sen Kerry said, he doesn't work for Obama, he'll work with Obama. I'd trust him on that.

[Phx_Dem]

47. Sure they are, in just about every thread on this forum.

But I agree, that this particular thread is more about debating a policy, than complaining and whining about something Obama did or did not do.

Democrats don't have to support everything Obama does, but it would be nice if they gave him the benefit of the doubt on SOME issues since he hasn't even taken the oath yet.

[globalvillage]

55. Personally, I'm incredibly excited about PE Obama

I worked my ass off for him and I find him more impressive now than ever. I'm also thrilled that, as a Constitutional law expert and former Senator, he understands and respects the role of Congress. I think that goes both ways, and that Obama will have a lot of support from our Dems on the Hill.

Nope, no whining from me. I think Obama will be fantastic. I also think this topic is important, and the debate is refreshing. I'm siding with the Finance Committee and Sen. Kerry for now, but I'll bet there's a good compromise in all this.

I'll add a GObama, just because I haven't said it in a while.

:-)

[Number23]

62. I agree. I'm actually proud to see this happening.

There is a debate over the best way to stimulate the economy and create new jobs.

This debate will be long, painful and punishing. Obama has made it clear he wants to hear from all sides and I think that's exactly what will happen. He just needs to make sure the debate doesn't take too long before it leads to action.

[politicasista]

63. Plus, if all Obama wanted to listen to is "Yes Men, Women"

that would be boring and disastrous. Look where that has gotten us the last 8 years. :)

[karynnj]

59. No one is "turning on Obama"

certainly not Kerry, who spent a year being a fantastic for surrogate to Obama. The election is over - that is not his role now. His job is to push for what he thinks is the best legislation possible. I assume that he will often agree with Obama, but here he clearly thinks a more New Deal FDR type program is better - as do many economists. MA did NOT re-elect Senator Kerry to be an Obama follower, but to be their Senator.

In the first place, every Democrat from the Finance committee was quoted as not being completely happy with LEGISLATION. Now, I would think that maybe Obama's team should have worked with at least the Democrats on this committee - which is the committee that has to work on it - it looks like he didn't. This is the same arrogance that HRC and BC used when they created their healthcare proposal. It seems like it might have been wise to at least try to socialize their program with the Senators. This goes both ways - you could say that Obama rather dissed the Finance committee by not bringing any of them inside the process. If true, then he should expect that when they see it and are asked to comment - they might have to say that they have problems with it.

[Two Americas]

61. don't be ridiculous

Kerry is not opposed to Obama or hurting him, nor are any of us.

Kerry is speaking the truth, and saying what needs to be said. That supports Obama and will lead to a greater likelihood that the administration will succeed.

I don't know why people want to see all constructive input as negative and have such a pessimistic view, just because it might interfere with their hero-worshiping fantasies. That outs such an unfair burden on the PE, and betrays a lack of confidence in him as well as a lack of respect. We cannot continue to put our own emotional needs for a savior figure take precedence over political progress. It seems that there is no amount of fawning over the personality of the PE that will ever satisfy some people. That does him, and all of us, such a disservice and it sabotages the democratic process.

Fir politicians to take risks, to take action on behalf of the people, they need for us to have their backs. "Whatever you say I will go along with because you are intelligent and wise" is not support, it merely reflects people's emotional needs. It is absolutely essential for the success of the new administration that people speak out and tell the truth, and advocate strongly to build public pressure, or else the administration will be undermined and weakened.


.

[TheKentuckian]

29. I respect Kerry a ton and would like to know his thoughts

but the credit always has made sense to me, especially if it is focused on small businesses.

My greatest fear and problem with Obama's proposal is not the targeting, I believe laying groundwork for future growth and development is just as crucial as spurring this deadass economy now, it is that he is being too cautious and too frugal. I think we'll have to invest almost twice as much to get the impact to get us off the mat again.

Still, it doesn't have to be all at once and much of what I'd like to see above and beyond would go into universal healthcare which I increasingly believe is one of the most important steps in taking pressure off of small companies and even corporations that will also help keep a few more bucks in the pockets of those of us that are living on the margins and take one of the biggest stressers off the backs of the individual. Fixing healthcare isn't a cure all but it more and more seems like the pivot.

[Mass]

34. They agree with most progressive economists. They want tax cuts for the middle class and the poor,

but get rid of those tax cuts for companies, including big ones, that have been added to get the GOP on board. May be you should start to read about things.

I am surprised and happy to see that even a RW like Conrad agrees with that.

[blm]

42. The bravest action ANY Dem took the last 50yrs was uncovering BCCI. You have no sense what a

backbone really is if you really believe your own posting.

PS: this 'difference' is likely exaggerated in preparation for the debate, and Obama would be very much in the loop on that, and likely helped set it up.

[globalvillage]

44. Interesting commentary on this topic

"Good Opposition"

http://d-day.blogspot.com/2009/01/good-opposition.html

[blm]

75. Exactly....they KNOW the debate will go down and are setting their markers for the REPUBLICANS

they'll be debating. Good opposition is a good way of putting it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

43. the idea is to create jobs and wealth to distribute to the poor

small companies don't need high taxes especially enormous capital gains.

There needs to be tax tiers so that the enormous greedy companies don't get huge tax rewards.

Companies hiding their assets offshore should get penalized.

Companies who use overseas workers at slave wages should also be penalized.

[Mass]

45. Because it never works. It has been tried before and it does not create a job that would not

have been created otherwise. At best, if the law is poorly written, companies will hire somebody for a couple months, fire them and still get the tax credit.

[Phx_Dem]

46. I like that tax credit idea.

It encourages companies to hire and keep jobs in the U.S. instead of rewarding companies for shipping them overseas. Of course, Kerry and Conrad don't have to worry about getting a job in this hideous economy or keeping it from being shipped overseas.

[politicasista]

52. Cool Rovian snark

Yep. PE Obama loves that. :sarcasm:

[Two Americas]

66. Kerry?

Kerry is guilty of Rovian snark?

[politicasista]

67. No, the OP was saying that it took PE Obama for

Kerry, Pelosi to finally have a backbone. That was the snark. Obama works miracles in fellow Democrats!

[Two Americas]

68. I see, yeah

Haven't seen you around lately. Good to see you.

[politicasista]

71. Thanks. You too

Been in lurk mode and on break during the holidays, but it's nice to be back. :hi:

[karynnj]

69. No the op - was ignoring

at least Kerry's history.

It takes more backbone to stand up to Nixon on Vietnam; Reagan on the Contras; and Bush on BCCI then to argue for different economic incentive package than the one put together by Obama's people. I doubt any of the DU "warriors" could have stood up as Kerry did for YEARS.

[politicasista]

70. Oh. Ok. Thanks for the correction

:yourock:

I agree with you too. :hi:

[Thrill]

57. I just saw Wyden and Conrad even blasting the PAYROLL TAX CUT?

Just saw that on CNN.

As Caferty said, These guys with an under 10% approval rating are out there blasting Obama's plans. How ironic

[brentspeak]

72. Kent Conrad has an over 70% approval rating in N.D.

[Two Americas]

74. prairie populism

Good for him.