What the hell has happened to this place?

[TheWraith]

More and more I'm having a hard time recognizing DU. It used to be that I found this place to be a sanctuary: someplace where I could stay up to date and take the opportunity to marinate in being surrounded by fellow Dems, a rare treat for me. Now every second post is some screeching, border-line tinfoil-hat screed about how Obama is a right wing shill, he's just supporting the elites, he hates the gays, he's in the pocket of Big (fill in the blank)...

What the hell is the matter with this place? I'm well aware that DU has never been particularly rational, but this is a level of just pure idiocy, vitriol, and Dem-bashing that I haven't seen since they finally shut down debate over the primary. The White House is going blue in 12 days, but to look at DU you'd think the Republican had won. Is this some kind of far-left PTSD, that we imagine we can't be happy so we go looking for the tiniest flaws to worry and beat our chests over, whether they're imaginary or not?

[reflection]

1. No one to be mad at anymore. n/t

[peace13]

24. Bull on that.

The entire Congress votes unanimously that Israel can continue this senseless bombing? Plenty of folks to pick on .

[Rosa Luxemburg]

75. Right wingers wade in here to stir the pot.

[reflection]

76. I don't think that alone can account

for the depth of the vitriol here. A fair amount of the infighting seems to be between long-term members.

But yeah, there's definitely some agitators around.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

79. don't worry, there are

it is disappointing to see a party that has won outright in the November elections fighting like rapid dogs

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[soulcore]

3. Because like all people...

..he is flawed, and is already making what some people consider to be huge mistakes in terms of his appointees and his (lack of) a response to the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

More importantly I don't recognize this place anymore either with all the censorship going on around the I/P conflict.

[truedelphi]

118. About censorship, I was on a thread about Paris HIlton the other day

Having a bit of fun, and one other DU'er joined in on me for our fantasy version of "Paris Hilton, Secretary of State," and the thread got LOCKED!!

I mean, had it been moved to the lounge, I'd understand, but LOCKED?

Are those who hold the position of Secretary of State too thin skinned to have us play this fantasy game?? Did Madeleine Albright call Skinner and complain that she could no longer sleep at night, due to people on DU not taking the position seriously any more?

Or maybe just maybe once and for all my sucky typing got too someone somewhere. Who knows?

[Terran]

128. I've run into some highly inappropriate thread locking lately too

and complained about it twice. Got one response that seemed reasonable on one of them (evidently I missed something in the thread that justified it), but got no response on the other, so I have to assume I was right about that one. There is at least one mod currently who doesn't know what he/she is doing.

[truedelphi]

140. IF I have any say about it, that mod will be replaced by

PARIS HILTON!!

[RobinA]

150. That's What's Irking

me, the censorship. People always fought here and there was a large nonsense quotient. But locking and censoring because what someone says may be offensive to someone, or make them feel uncomfortable? Guess I'm just a fogey who thought liberal meant NOT doing those things.

[Mika]

185. Sorta like the 100's of locked Cuba threads over the years.

The disruptors always have come along to join in with the red baiting and commie accusations just to get the threads (successfully) locked.

:hi:

[merh]

4. but, but, but ...

he hasn't sad the things I want him to say when I want him to say them

dissent is patriotic and we don't walk in lock step and yada yada yada

:sarcasm:



I believe this "atmosphere" is caused by a combination of fear and habit.

Folks are accustomed to bitching about the government and they don't want to give it up, thus it is a habit. Things suck right now and you have to blame someone for it and someone has to fix it. Things are so bad the chances of the perfect fix are slim. Things are so bad that it will take a very long time to fix them. Fear of disappointment cause many to condemn the new admin before it begins, if they don't have much faith in the admin, it won't hurt so much when they are disappointed. Oh, and the "I told you so's" can be so much fun.

[scheming daemons]

7. Yep... a bunch of people pissed that they haven't gotten their pony

[Runcible Spoon]

45. it's comments like this that really undermine any seriousness in your support of the OP

if you don't like bashing, why fucking contribute to it with those inane little degradations?

edited bc it's not your OP :P

[last_texas_dem]

124. And many are more concerned that those in need of one

may not end up getting their "pony."

[stillcool]

110. I agree..I'm recycling an old phrase..

from my youth.."Don't worry about it. It ain't going to get any better". I can't imagine that people believe that their pissing and moaning is in any way productive. I think it's a manifestation of powerlessness.

[Miss Chybil]

5. I noticed the same thing.

I quit coming around here much during the primaries and I find myself staying away more and more now. It's just silly. Obama has done exactly what he said he was going to do. It's just not what everybody "thought" he was going to do. I'm going to give him a chance to be president before I start bitching.

We have no common enemy anymore, so now it's back to the circular firing squad...

[loudsue]

147. That is so wrong. WE DO HAVE A COMMON ENEMY.

And it is called corruption at the highest levels of government, with names and faces, and many of those names and faces are right at the top.

Let's take Rahm Emmanuel. The republican right hand man that Obama picked, who claims to be a Democrat. And he IS. He is the new, republicanized version of a Democrat.

Collusion. That's the word here. He has colluded with corporatists/republicans all along the way to elect more and more CONSERVATIVE democrats, who would put the rights of corporations AHEAD of the people. Who would NOT vote to convict the people at the highest levels of government and industry who have broken every law of the land for the past 8 years.

Let's talk about rights. Rights for women & gays. The new head of the DNC, with Obama's blessing, is a man who does NOT believe in rights of women and gays. So is the dude he is letting open his inauguration with a prayer. Are we supposed to believe that Obama is appalled by people who do not believe in equal rights for all Americans when he does this?

The problem is not that we haven't given Obama's new "team" a break and a chance to do what is "right". It's that not everyone is in love with the president, NOR SHOULD HE BE THE MESSIAH, but the president, who is subject to the scrutiny of those who are going to have to live with his decisions for the next 4/8 years. So far, scrutinizing his circle of choices is about like enjoying something that very closely resembles the DLC. Anybody that read Obama's books knows that he is far more conservative in many areas close to the hearts of traditional democrats than he is liberal or progressive.

Now...are we upset that he's not more liberal? Is it ok that he just endorsed the biggest theft of American's tax dollars to pay to republican big wigs who own & manage banks than has ever been contemplated by even most neocons? Is it somehow whining to note the moves he's made and call them what it is? THAT is censorship of the most insidious kind. Let's all lie about him and feel warm and fuzzy.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

8. Yep, it's anti-democratic underground around here lately.

More specifically anti-Obama underground. It's no longer a haven from the media which regularly lambastes our elected officials. You can get all the lambasting you want right here. As you can see just above.

[ellacott]

9. I said something similar yesterday

It's quite pitiful around here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8064393&mesg_id=8065445

[Captain Hilts]

10. People take politics and politicans too personally. nt

[last_texas_dem]

11. Democratic politicians have never been off-limits from criticism on DU.

[hyphenate]

89. I'd say that's changed

for quite a while now. There is support of our Democrats, and then there is a level of fanaticism that we used to make fun of at other sites, but now seems to have DU in its grasp. It is no longer recognizable to the DU I originally was part of, in June 2001.

I've spent less and less time here since August, and find I have very little in common with so many people anymore. Did we win the election on the strength of our resolve and our candidate, or just that Bush had fucked up so badly and so often that it was impossible to ignore it anymore? Seven years ago, that question would have been cause to consider the possibilities of it being reality--I wager that a mass attack on me and my "character" will be likely the response now instead.

Many of the fine qualities we used to attribute to our legacy from the founding fathers--liberty, dissent, freedom of speech and religion, questioning loyalty instead of making it an ultimatoum--seem to no longer apply here at times at DU. But fear of criticism, flaming, being ganged up on by others and a desire to remain contention free has silenced many of us into something approaching meekness and compliance with the bullies. Is it right? No, but most of us have made such a response the compromise in our real lives, and cooperation here, in spite of our differences, has evolved into "my way or the highway." Such a fine, upstanding attitude is better suited to the party of exclusion, rather than the party of inclusion, which I was always proud of stating about my own.

And so many people are just so happy to tear someone apart after they've been run out on a rail from DU that maliciousness for the sake of maliciousness should not look so becoming on those I've considered part of my political party for quite some time.

[Beacool]

102. Hear, hear!!

One of the best posts I've read here in a long time.

;)

[hyphenate]

103. Thanks!

:hi:

[Beacool]

106. You're most welcome.

;)

[Two Americas]

115. well said

Thanks.

[hyphenate]

175. Thank you, Mike

You taught me a few things, even if it was only for too short a while!

[last_texas_dem]

125. I know what you're saying

When I first started posting at DU in fall 2001 part of what I found intriguing about it was that the majority of posters actually seemed to be to my left, which was a sort of environment that I had no familiarity with! Today, that majority now seem to be treated as the "fringe," and I feel like I identify with them more than the my-president-right-or-wrong folks that seem to have taken over. And my positions on issues haven't changed substantially over the last seven years...

Very well-written and thoughtful post on your part...

[psychopomp]

173. Yup

I lurk more and read less here these days, especially since the election. :toast:

[Yukari Yakumo]

146. And if you want evidence

Just criticize either Cindy Sheehan or Dennis Kucinich. Both are well deserving of scrutiny (especially the former), but to do so will summon the wrath of their extremely vocal loyalists. Funny, how they worship them for "speaking out against Bush" while they demonize anyone who dares the same against their idols. Hypocrisy, anyone?

However, this is the exact same kind of fanaticism that we often deride Freeperville for.

I think Skinner has two options here:
One, he can either clamp down on the blind fanaticism that has taken root here, or
Two, watch his site turn into a left-wing version of Free Republic (and not in a good way in any way, shape, or form).
Trying to straddle between the two is not an option.

Currently, I think we are seeing the beginning of the self-destruction of the progressive movement.

[AntiFascist]

170. Excellent post ! n/t

[Amimnoch]

187. Beautifully stated!

[Zuiderelle]

12. "looking for the tiniest flaws"

:rofl:

and ... :boring:

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. Yep. I'm fine with everything he has done so far.

Around here that seems to make me a DINO. I don't get it.:shrug: Oh well. Still glad we elected a intelligent President.

[Cha]

14. There's lots of patches of

activism and positivness on the great things that are happening..just have to do some weeding.

And, I'm not suggesting anybody shutup, either.

[Window]

15. K/R. I find myself spending less and less time here. It's depressing.

Peace:thumbsup:



:kick:

[cooolandrew]

97. I think it's worth keeping in touch at least every so often Barack will need help and persuasion.

[Window]

145. Absolutely.

Peace:thumbsup:

[texastoast]

16. Oh, it's contagious

You too?

[tularetom]

17. It took eight years for this country to get this fucked up

and some people expect it to be unfucked before Obama even takes office.

DU is still where I go for news and intelligent discussion of events.

[andym]

18. Nothing happenned

This is a vast improvement over the primaries. The denizens of this forum appeared to be the spiritual descendants of the citizens of Lilliput and Blefuscu.

DU attracts very opinionated and feisty people who appear to enjoy rancor.

I expect things to gradually get more heated with time.

This forum should probably be closed at some point.

[H2O Man]

19. Interesting OP/thread

I do not think the current difficulties are entirely due to the Democratic victory in November. I think there are advantages in viewing DU in terms of a "system," not unlike a "family system" in the context of social work.

In part, things go in cycles. But it is not accurate to say that "DU has always been this way," because the only system that is static is one that died. Even taking cycles into account, all systems take routes that include one of two possibilities: progress/growth or regression/decay.

Recently I had mentioned the book "The Culture of Our Discontent" (by Meredith Small), because it addresses some of the social/cultural pathologies that are found in large systems. It's not that I think DU is without value; quite the opposite, I believe it has value in its potentional to move forward, in a progressive manner. But it would be incorrect to view the nonsense that is taking place here since early November as a positive thing.

This, of course, is merely my opinion.

[DevonRex]

21. I agree with you totally. Thanks for the book reference. I'll check it out.

And I definitely don't regard the nonsense here since the election as positive.

[SoCalDem]

57. Isn't that the truth?

Lately there seems to be little wiggle room for any true discussion.. No matter the kernel of the thread , within minutes, there always seems to be visitation by the "contrarians", who for some reason, feel compelled to take an opposite opinion, sometimes appearing to do so , just for the sake of argument.

The GD forum front page has always reminded me of a stream-of-consciousness conversation , with many people all contributing simultaneously. No matter the time of day or night, GD was always there..with SOME thread(s) of interest to almost anyone, but lately NO thread seems to go "unnoticed" by the contrarians.

It reminds me of Christmas morning, when kids tear into their presents like starving hyenas on a carcass..ripping open box after box, only to discover that they did NOT get that one special thing they really wanted.....and then spend the rest of the day whining and kvetching about their misfortune...totally ignoring the really cool gifts they DID get... Damn that Grandma and her gift of socks & a book...:)

[Number23]

82. "it would be incorrect to view the nonsense that is taking place here since early November..."

as a positive thing."

I don't know you, and yet I could kiss you.

The mayhem and hysteria, I know you used the word "nonsense" but I think hysteria might be more applicable, since Obama won the election seems to be rooted in some type of psychosis. It simply makes no sense. No issue is too meaningless or far-fetched, from his place of birth to where he puts his children in school. Everything the man has done has been beaten to death and criticized. And it seems the more minute and insignificant the issue, the more it is hyped up and overblown. I don't even think the "things go in cycles" outlook is even in play here.

For the first time in our country's history, we have a black male liberal-leaning centrist with a seemingly sincere interest in reaching out to all Americans in the White House, shaping the direction of our nation. I do believe that all of the old rules have not only been turned on their ear, they've been laughed out of town. It's clear to me that there are large groups on both sides of the political spectrum who simply don't know what to do with themselves as a result. And they are making so much noise that the rest of us can't hear anything over the din.

[JuniperLea]

157. Well said...

Times and things are changing. This is the first time in DU history that Democrats will have this much power. That kind of change is scary, even if you welcome the change. Add to that those who think we can have it all now, right now, and everything about our government will be changing.

There's been a lot of damage, and I think people need to lower their expectations a few pegs.

Not only is this a cycle, but it is in uncharted territory.

[SeaLyons]

20. K&R....

>The White House is going blue in 12 days<


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

What is the matter with these people :shrug:


:hi:

[zipplewrath]

22. Some have lived through this before

There are people who have watched a democrat get elected before, only to dive to the right and into the arms of the powerful. You might try a little understanding that they are sensitive to it happening again, especially those amongst us that have seen their rights attacked and reduced. Yes, you are seeing some sensitivity to things that actually haven't happened yet. But there is a certain amount of "fool me once" at work here. There are people who have been waiting decades to achieve their full and equal rights and once again it's being suggested they go to the end of the line because there are more important considerations. Some of us are seeing patterns play out that we've seen before. It gets hard to "wait and see". You tend to flinch even before the cattle prod touches you.

[leftstreet]

38. "You tend to flinch even before the cattle prod touches you."

Good God! What a reasonable post.

:thumbsup:

[QC]

58. Truly! We don't see many of those lately. n/t

[zipplewrath]

73. Explain your position

One of the things I've been trying to do lately in my posting is not to "argue" my position, but "explain" it. One of my primary criticisms of the Bush administration was that they never felt the need to "make their case" on any subject (and the GOP congress never required them to). This is a discussion forum. Discuss, explain, but we don't have to accuse and argue per se. Someone doesn't understand, explain. Someone misses the point, explain. Someone makes what you consider to be an invalid point, make a valid one, and explain what you find invalid about theirs. You can have passion in your explanation, but if you passionately explain, if you "make your case" someone (even maybe a lurker) might begin to at least understand, even if they don't agree. (And this all by the way is in line with Obama's tendency towards working with those with which he disagrees).

[RobinA]

151. Well, There is Something

between a saviour and a cattle prod, and anybody who has been waiting decades to achieve something should be aware of that. Stop looking for saviours, and you will stop feeling as if you've been cattle prodded when someone turns out (as they inevitably will) not to be one.

[zipplewrath]

155. DADT

Don't ask don't tell was a serious cattle prod to the stomach. Minimizing it won't change that.

[eridani]

23. What it's called is advocating for the policies that you want in your loudest voice

That way, at least you might get some of them.

[scheming daemons]

33. A shorter way of putting that is... "ME FIRST, DAMMIT!"

[eridani]

47. Excuse me, but since I'm not dead yet, can I yell about the 18,000 per year

--who are dead because they didn't have the money to pay for health care? Is me not being dead yet and yelling about it anyway unselfish enough for you?

[acmavm]

25. A sanctuary??????

Oh brother.

[DevonRex]

27. From the explanation of hte rules of DU:

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here."

So yes, this place is considered a haven or sanctuary by many of us. At least it used to be.

[acmavm]

28. Well, I'm sure you kiddies can find reruns of Romper Room somewhere.

Welcome to the real ADULT world.

[DevonRex]

29. Not my problem if you don't like the explanation of DU rules. nt

[acmavm]

30. Not anyone else's problem if you can't take the heat. There's always the

Lounge for people who just want flattery posts and small talk.

[DevonRex]

56. That's pretty silly, since I obviously am still here and posting. nt

[Two Americas]

114. that is unfair

Many people here have been expressing the same opinions, left wing opinions, opinions that are consistent with the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party and organized Labor for years, Obama or no Obama. You may hear that as "tearing Obama down" but you can hardly expect DU to be a sanctuary where you do not have to hear those opinions, opinions that people have always expressed here, just because you think they conflict with what you want to feel about one of the Democratic party politicians.

Why shouldn't the left wingers have a sanctuary here and be able to express their opinions, as they always have, without being viciously and relentlessly attacked and accused of disloyalty?

[DevonRex]

152. Look, TA, all I did was quote the damned explanation of DU Rules from the DU rule site.

Go argue with somebody else. I ain't playin' your game, bud.

[Two Americas]

160. that is not true

You posted to say that the rules give you, and those who agree with you, sanctuary, and that those who don't agree with you are spoiling your sanctuary. I said that was unfair.

[DevonRex]

161. No, I did NOT say that AT ALL. You should go back and read it again.

[DevonRex]

162. Actually, TA, go pester somebody else.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zuiderelle]

46. The irony!

It's killing me. :rofl:

[HamdenRice]

49. Exhibit Number 2 nt

[Zuiderelle]

50. Exhibit Number 1

[mmonk]

31. Some people have independent thought and assessment of issues

and thus concerns.

[Cha]

34. Yes, and that's fine but this

board is being abused by those who never wanted Obama in the first place and seem to take it personally that he was elected our Democratic President.

I'm sick of them spewing their rancid venom.

[Runcible Spoon]

40. as far as I know, the vast majority of people on this board voted for Obama.

That is pretty much as much minimum loyalty as you can rationally expect from this place, given the spectrum of opinions. A lot of us who didn't particularly buy the shiny Hope and Change package and knew he was purely a centrist have been voicing our concerns. BUT WE STILL VOTED FOR HIM. Obama has said himself he doesn't want us all marching lockstep, that he expects to be criticized, that he values hearing from voters. If he can take the heat, why are you hand-wringing over what gets said at DU? Don't take it personally, even if people get nasty towards you. A lot of people have valid concerns with Obama's cabinet and early peeks at policy. Some of us don't see our values represented in his team; at least you can sleep well knowing that his Cabinet is full of people YOU like. I would trade places with you in a heartbeat, for Obama to pick a Cabinet I love but having to deal with people bashing it constantly. In a fucking HEARTBEAT.

[Cha]

68. Only takes a few with their rancid venom.

I know the majority on this board voted for Obama Biden and have legitimate complaints but they support Obama when he does what they like not just come on to spew hate on Obama.

I'm NOT talking about those posters.

[mmonk]

43. I'm sure many are.

I'm also fairly sure some aren't but get mistakenly thrown in with them. I guess the best we can do is keep our head and encourage others to do the same.

[Cha]

70. Keeping ones head is always

good advice:)

[mmonk]

77. Yes, beats losing it.

:P

[Two Americas]

113. I strongly object to that

People who supported other candidates are not disloyal because of that, and if they supported a different candidate in the primaries that does not make their opinion any less worthwhile.

I most strongly object to you saying that there are people "who never wanted Obama in the first place" supposedly "abusing the board." That is false, and it is a malicious and divisive statement.

Most people here supported someone other than Obama at some point in the primaries. Shame on you for trying to smear them. Nothing good can possibly come from that.

I think that the opposite of what you say is actually true - people who are overly zealous about Obama, who are infatuated with him as a personality, and who too closely identify with him emotionally, take it personally when anyone tries to discuss politics here.

[Marrah_G]

144. Stop trying to stir up the primary wars

They are done and over with. Some long time Obama supporters are voicing displeasure with his current decisions, some who did not support Obama in the primaries are defending him. People from ALL candidate camps are voicing their opinions on what he is doing right and what he is doing wrong.

I find your attitude incredibly disturbing.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

176. ^^^THIS. Quoted for truth.

[watrwefitinfor]

32. "Is this some kind of far-left PTSD..."

Wraith, I can't speak for the entire Far Left, of course, but considering myself part of that illustrious group, I must say I believe the far left tends to see and accept Obama for who and what he has said and shown repeatedly that he is - a pragmatic democrat with some progressive tendencies. Anyone who believed he was anything else just wasn't paying attention.

I am astounded every day to find so many astounded people on DU, crying about Obama not being as progressive as they thought he would be. I don't know who all these people are who weren't paying attention, but I don't believe it is the far left.

Wat

[Runcible Spoon]

51. I don't think that a lot of people complaining about Obama are complaining that...

he wasn't what they bargained for, that he's not some paragon of liberalism. Most of us who have been speaking out about his policy positions, appointments, and public comments pretty much knew what we were dealing with. We voted for him anyway, but never said that was the moment when we relinquished our commitment to pushing Obama to pass meaningful legislation, even if we had to hold his feet to the fire to do it. And we will still continue to speak out. To some of us, the presidency is not a cult of personality, it is an office of public service. Obama works for us, not vice versa.

I DO feel badly for those few who listened to a bunch of vague spin and projected their expectations onto Obama without actually taking a closer look at hints as to how he would actually govern.

[dionysus]

35. you are right, the joint is effed up big time right now.

i mix of people bitter over the primary and people used to being in constant opposition i suppose.

[Jennicut]

36. "Poutrage" as some clever Duer coined it, is all the rage.

Sheesh. I love Dean but even he does not seem all that upset about his "slight". Gupta, we are worried about Sanjay freaking Gupta? The economy is tanking, the world is a mess of conflicts and there are thirty posts on Sanjay Gupta and Caroline Kennedy? Man oh man. Constructive criticism I have no problem with. Talking about what to do on the economy to healthcare to education to foregoing policy is good but this constant outrage and "obama is a corporate sellout" is a bit too much. Where is the levity, the balance? Its over before it began per some around here. Excuse me while I go slit my wrists and bury my head in the toilet bowl. If I see one more "that's it, its ruined for me" posts I will puke. It has not even started yet, the era of Obama. He is not even president yet but he will stop Israel from being idiots. Yeah, okay.

[Soylent Brice]

37. "far-left PTSD"

that about sums it up, now doesn't it?

can't blame anyone here for being apprehensive, and down right nasty sometimes. we should have Skinner rename DU to Republican Administration Survivors Anonymous.

everyone should remain skeptical. it's what got us a blue white house, congress, and senate.

we worked hard and bitched even harder. we all have very different takes on things, regardless of our similarities. that's why dems will always be superior. we don't march in lockstep.

of course, a certain measure of civility and trust in our new prez wouldn't kill us though...

[leftstreet]

39. There is no American Left

To say "far-left" is just :crazy:

[Soylent Brice]

71. there's a far left, they call us radicals though...

[fadedrose]

41. We don't know who or what we are now....

During the primaries and election campaigns, we knew who we supported and who we didn't support, and why.

We won . . . but who we didn't support won too. Now it's like guerrilla warfare and we're criticized because we are not thrilled with our victory, and we don't really know who we are arguing with.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

178. Some of us ARE thrilled with our victory though.

[mrs_p]

42. i've been addicted to this board

since february. things seemed a little better here after the primaries, but i actually think it is worse now then even during that dark time. i'm tired of being told i'm a bigot or homophobe or freeper or unprogressive just because i support obama. i have no problem with constructive criticism, but sometimes it is just insane, and, frankly, over the top - just spewing hate for hate's sake. obama is not even the president yet. once policy is finally being implemented, i think i will try not to look here - i'm afraid it will be like a shark feeding frenzy.

[cascadiance]

44. I think some value having dems in power more, and others value having progessive policy...

... more

I think the latter feel a lot more frustrated now than the former, who are celebrating their wins. The latter feels that we still are far away from the target of where we need to be, and want to still speak up on it. The others take it personally, like we're suddenly turning on the Dems.

I don't want to "turn on" the Dems at all. I still feel they are a far better party than the Republicans to be in power and every day we get closer to getting Bush out of office, I feel more and more hopeful that we're going to get ourselves out of the dump.

But ultimately, it is not who's in power running the show that matters, but what they do. I still have concerns here that many also do as well, which might seem like fighting or dissension. Please make sure to understand that having decent progressive governance for us is the fundamental issue here. Now if later what gets done helps put more progressive policies in place and things start getting fixed, I'll be right there sipping a beer with you all celebrating. But pardon me while I still don't get overly excited just yet when I don't see us moving there yet. I need to see more before I will join you in blowing horns.

[saracat]

53. Wonderful post!

[NashVegas]

63. Great Post

I'd kick it if I could.

[Myrina]

48. Because some members were really naive enough to think ...

.... that when Obama won, it would be 'a new sheriff's in town' -- Republicans would be driven out of DC on pikes, and all our dreams & pet projects would come to life immediately. Real politics and real governance isn't like that.

The only way the 'true left' would be able to plant a stake in the ground and say 'my way or the highway' to the rest of DC would be if Kucinich won. And we see how close to the nomination he got, right?

Yet some folks expect a 'Dem win' to be a 'neener neener' moment - example: all the glee and anticipated Bush-Pants-Pissing when Pelosi was named Speaker, then all the chest thumping and teeth gnashing when she turned out to be just like all the rest of them.


It takes a long time for idealistic folks to realize that we, the voters, are - and always will be - the afterthought on the fringe.

[Runcible Spoon]

52. NICE HIT AND RUN PIECE BTW

stay classy.

[Zuiderelle]

64. Good point.

[Teaser]

86. /caps off

I agree, The Wraith should stay at hir computer 24/7.

It's the only way to be sure.

[Runcible Spoon]

90. oh yeah because that's exactly what I was suggesting

Yeah, post a thread you know damn well it going to spark a flamewar and then scram. A quick search shows that the OP has been on other threads today, very recently, so there goes your whole argument. Sorry, looks like the "OP is a pot-stirring jackass" wins out over "OP suddenly had an emergency right after clicking post".

[PurityOfEssence]

54. This is a nest of contrarians and you are now the establishment

Some of it is tiresome, and some of it is deserved, but many of us are supremely displeased from the left.

Many people--and many more to come--are seeing that they mistook carefully-chosen words and deliberately interpretable stances as Obama being allied to them, and they're pissed. They feel a bit conned, and they should.

Many people here are one or two issue people, and a few of them have just had their precious issue trampled on.

To me, this is not news; I'm pretty irrationally anti-religion (in government, that is) so I've been seriously verklempt for well over a year now.

He promised the moon; it's time to deliver at least an odd sattelite or two instead of just more and more cheese.

Be fair: he's enjoyed a hell of a ride of people giving him the benefit of the doubt, and by far and away most people heartily support him. Hell, I even support him, but it's just not blinkered and unqualified adulation. The overwhelming sense of the board is one of support, indeed STRONG support, so don't get icky that there's more dissent than you'd like. If your comfort zone needs to be a self-congratulatory echo chamber, you'd best move on because this place will hurt you deeply.

It's a tough gig and they said they could hack it. It was a hell of a fine floorshow and banquet; check, please...

[frylock]

81. well stated

[burythehatchet]

100. I really admire your thoughtul replies

:thumbsup:

[Two Americas]

117. very good analysis

"If your comfort zone needs to be a self-congratulatory echo chamber, you'd best move on because this place will hurt you deeply."

I think that is what we are seeing.

[1776Forever]

55. DU to me is where anyone who is a member can say whatever is on their mind - I can ignore it

if I choose as you have the right to do. That is what democracy is - It isn't just what I want to hear. Stating ideas that are not always 100% with what PE Obama has chosen to do or those he has surrounded with is not saying that we are not with him and hope for his success in every area. It is doing what I think PE Obama wants us to do. He doesn't like "yes" men or women, and regards each persons ideas with respect. I have turned off some people to ignore but the majority of those that disagree with my thoughts are not on ignore and I have tried to engage them in sound and referenced discourse. I agree with those who say if you don't like the discussion then move on - it is your right and it is my right to say what I feel is important also.

Peace -

:fistbump:

[Two Americas]

59. interesting reversal there

Is it those who are objecting to the drift to the right, or those defending the drift to the right the ones who are acting as though the Republicans have won?

I think there is a faction here who want to see the election as a repudiation of the political Left and who want to blame the political left for any controversy here. Clearly, the election was a rejection and repudiation of Reganomics and the religious right.

Your post is full of insults and smears of many good people here - "screeching, border-line tinfoil-hat screed" and "pure idiocy, vitriol, and Dem-bashing" and "some kind of far-left PTSD." That is extremely divisive and inflammatory. As we can see from the subsequent posts, you ignited a firestorm of insults and mean-spirited attacks. You would then have those at whom those malicious attacks are directed to take blame for the uproars here? The only way that critics could prevent any arguments would be to stay silent, so your post is an obvious attempt at whipping up a mob for the purpose of sabotaging a free and open discussion.

Politics is not about any if us being "happy" as individuals, and it is not the fault of dissidents and critics that their ideas threaten anyone's personal desire for feeling any particular way.

[NashVegas]

95. Well. I Think If There Are People Who Want to View It As Repudiating Left Here

Tough. We were here first. I'm not going without a fight.

[dcindian]

60. Any post which incites hatred of progressives through the use of the words "far-left"

Really should not be asking the question you asked. Pointing at others and screaming border-line tinfoil hat while posting exactly what you accuse them of is well...... purely hypocritical.

Just look at what you just wrote and you have your answer.

[alwysdrunk]

65. "incites hatred of progressives"

Yeah....that's definitely some type of syndrome. :eyes:

[dcindian]

66. It was placed in the OP for a reason and that reason was to divide

and encourage a pile on attitude in the supporting post. Or do you have some other theory you would like to put forth? Didn't think so.:eyes:

[alwysdrunk]

72. It was placed in the OP as a statement of fact

It is mostly the far-left on this board carrying on as the OP describes. It's not a divisive term to everyone, only the ones who claim that there is no far-left because there are no Trotskyists here.

[dcindian]

74. The words far-left and far-right are used as weapons

They are used to paint anyone left of the user or anyone left of the desired outcome as radical and extreme. Other words you and other of the far-Reich like to use are leftist, radicals, extremist, terrorist, and so on.

They are not words used in any real discussion of America politics in any way but to slur those they are used against.

[PassingFair]

61. What do you expect from a group of people who are sick of corporate/military collusion?

We are finding out that we were offered only
Hobson's choice.

"Where to elect there is but one, / 'Tis Hobson's choice—take that, or none."

With grassroots support, Obama overcame the DLC candidate;
his cabinet picks imply that he
was a stalking horse for the DLC.

I HOPE that I am wrong.

But it LOOKS like I am right.

[AngryOldDem]

62. It's an Internet discussion forum.

'Nuff said.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

69. I have no idea what you are talking about...

:)

Seriously, GDP is like the thunderdome forum. I find the peaceable and thoughtful discussions often go on in several subforums. GD has several interesting posts. Move around a bit, is my advice. I've been diversifying my reading around here and finding several great conversations! :hi:

[Lyric]

78. Funny how Dem-bashing was just effing fine when it was Dems YOU don't like

:eyes:

DU is just fine to me. But then again, I value discussion and dissent.

[JohnnieGordon]

85. Good point, shred Hillary to within an inch of her life, just don't touch my guy..nt

[Beacool]

105. It's what I always said: hypocrisy.

They are still shredding Hillary and Bill to pieces, but that's A-OK with many here. Now, don't you dare even question the PE because you will be tarred and feathered.

:crazy:

[last_texas_dem]

126. Very good point

Lots of posters on here either have really thin skin, really short memories, or are just shameless hypocrites.

[frylock]

80. you should sign up at freerepublic..

they frown upon dissent as well. now everybody break on three -- 1 2 3 yay DEMS!!!

[noamnety]

83. "the tiniest flaws"

I'm sorry, I can't tell from that vague phrase if you are referring to the FISA vote, keeping 50,000 troops in Iraq after "withdrawing" our troops, promoting the antigay bigot, or escalating the idiotic occupation of Afghanistan.

Could you be more specific?

[Teaser]

84. Some people want to play dissident

So let them. It's kind of fun to watch.

[polichick]

87. It's a smorgasbord - only spoon up what you can easily digest.

[Kaleva]

88. Faux Democrats running rampant

I think a number of members who say they are Democrats are more in line with the positions of the Green Party.

[last_texas_dem]

123. Liberals non-affiliated with the Democratic Party have always been welcome here

I think most of my first hundred posts on here were spent arguing with a famous former poster named Walt Starr about how Nader had impacted Gore's chances in FL. (At this point, I can no longer remember even WS had even supported Nader or was just defending his supporters...). And unless something changed and I wasn't paying attention, there is no problem with independent liberals posting on here, as long as they don't advocate for third party candidates over Democrats in the period preceding an election. A few of the more obsessive "party" folks on here (and this is not directed at you) seem to be trying to extend the "don't speak ill of the Democrat"-period beyond the election, but AFAIK there has been no change of the rules.

[HughMoran]

91. Everybody has been waiting patiently in line

We've been out of power so long that we've forgotten that you can't rule like Bush (just change shit based on ideology) and succeed. This is an instant gratification society - everybody wants everything immediately. Oh, and did I mention that the "everything" is something different to each individual?

It'll take some time, but I have a feeling that Obama will lead his flock masterfully. We will learn to be patient and good things will come.

[Cha]

98. Thanks, I enjoy a post

like yours when there's so much negativity running rampant.

[HughMoran]

112. I was hoping at least one person would read it

lol

[Cha]

133. It's so true..more should

take it to heart.

[tabasco]

92. Trolls took over during the primaries. n/t

[Pirate Smile]

93. OP, You are not alone in feeling that way.

:)

[Avalux]

94. Identity Crisis? DU has never had a Dem as President.

This site was created and so much of our energy has been spent fighting Bush, fighting the Republicans....it seems we need something to fill that void, so we turn on ourselves. Well guess what?

The Republicans have retreated; they've stepped back to wait and see if we turn and eat each other so they can step back in and take over. Jebbie's waiting on the sideline.

We STILL need to fight them and let Obama do his job.

[Cha]

99. I hadn't thought of that..

'Cause sometimes I think I took a wrong turn and can't find my democraticunderground.

[bridgit]

111. Mm, not agreed with in-full; republicans haven't retreated, they goose-stepped till their...

feet fell off there's a difference.

[Radical Activist]

181. Many of us have never had a liberal President in our adult lives.

Think about how many liberals have never known anything other than opposing the President. It's obvious that there are people at DU who can't believe that America could ever elect a liberal President and they need to convince themselves Obama isn't one.

[rosesaylavee]

96. Don't know either.

Miss the humor... a lot.

[AZBlue]

101. I know what you mean.

I come here less and less now. I'll hold out for a while, but if it's going to be like this for the next eight years, I'll soon be gone.

[ZombieHorde]

104. "the tiniest flaws"

Not everyone has the same priorities as you.

[stillcool]

107. I don't know what country people..

think they live in..or what government they think they have. But..you might enjoy this..things have certainly progressed rather nicely in the 40 years since this was written.

From the book.."The Rich and the Super-Rich" by Ferdinand Lunberg circa 1968
Lest such an observation be thought by provincials to give this exposition an unholy Marxist aura, let us in reverential solemnity quote such an austere Establishmentarian as Woodrow Wilson, who said (Franklin D. Roosevelt later concurring) in words as valid today as when first uttered:

"The masters of the government of the United States are the combined capitalists and manufacturers of the United States. It is written over every intimate page of the record of Congress, it is written all through the history of conferences at the White House, that the suggestions of economic policy in this country have come from one source, not from many sources. The benevolent guardians, the kind hearted trustees who have taken the troubles of government off our hands have become so conspicuous that almost anybody can write out a list of them. . . .

"Suppose you go to Washington and try to get at your government. You will always find that while you are politely listened to, the men really consulted are the men who have the biggest stake--the big bankers, the big manufacturers, the big masters of commerce, the heads of railroad corporations and of steamship corporations. . . . The government of the United States at present is a foster child of the special interests." 1

----------------------------------------------------------
From Lincoln onward no more than two out of nineteen presidents are argued by anybody to have been oriented toward the popular interest and even those two are rejected by some experts as true paladins of the people. The people, very obviously, are not capable of wielding the electoral sword, thus accounting for the success of institutionalized overreaching and patronage. The rich, in plain fact, are rich because they cannot help it. They are playing marbles for big stakes against blind men, cannot help winning with little effort.

To the Marxists all these presidents were tools of the capitalist Establishment; but not to the people, to whom the Marxists look vainly as the instrument of social reconstruction. As to this, say the Marxists, the people are fooled by the mass media; but it is of the essence of politics, as of military affairs, not to be fooled. To be fooled in politics is to be conquered. In losing out so consistently by means of open elections the people, clearly, are being hoist by their own petard. They have not the least inkling what the elections are all about.

It would be difficult for any set of men, however qualified, to run so complexly ponderous a country as the United States really well. As it is, the United States is very, very poorly run, year after year, by the quacks, overreachers and patrons, as the accumulation and multiplication of social problems attest. At the same time, propagandic apologists continually bellow how well the country is run. Nothing, though, ever seems to get any better; everything gets demonstrably worse and worse, converging toward some awesome future crisis, some catastrophic reckoning. Après nous, le deluge.

So really bad is the situation that American sociologists have gradually developed a forbidding branch of their discipline labeled, simply, Social Problems, the equivalent of pathology in medicine. To this melancholy subject scores of textbooks are devoted, dealing with crime, its causes and its steady increase; rigging of courts and elections; poverty; racial and religious conflict; curtailments of civil rights; prison brutality; ill health and inadequate and profit-perverted medical care; mal-education, non-education and illiteracy; the prevalence of divorce and desertion; the excesses of pressure groups; faulty mass transportation; child mistreatment and abandonment; personal anomy; inadequate housing; social disorganization; widespread psychic disorder; slums, overcrowding and overpopulation in relation to available facilities; advertising and propaganda; unattended mental illness; commercialized alcoholism; gambling; drug addiction; traffic tangles; prostitution; pathological deviancies; war, etc., etc. 17 All of this bespeaks a very sick society, a poor political system.

What is most remarkable about all these problems is that despite the reports and recommendations of one public commission after the other none ever appears to be solved or even made more tractable. Each appears to be growing greater and new ones, such as water and air pollution and air traffic, are constantly being added. As the sociologists report, many causes are discernible but a general cause seldom mentioned is simple political neglect. Forthright confrontation of the problems is prevented by the various forms of political blockage at which the pubpols are most adept. Again, as much of the brains of the country are in the service of overreaching in the market place and political arena in pursuit of the dollar there are few competent people left in circulation to deal adequately with the problems. Money for social problem-solving, of course, is kept to a minimum as the public coffers are opened wide for the purchase of multi-redundant military hardware and space rockets to the moon: Over-kill.

[Kaleva]

108. Definition of a progressive

One who makes sure everyone else's needs are met before addressing their own.

[bridgit]

109. After loping along in that direction; DU has become a cult of personality

It's not a random thing that many view DU, and not just DU but other on-line communities to greater or lesser degrees, as forms of addiction. Flickering screens with immediate, "Ooh that fucker!! How dare they have an opinion contrary to mine!?" requiring IMMEDIATE bile & haste.

Then there are they who sit I am quite sure at their puters all...day...long dropping links and monitoring 'views', 'replies', and more to the point 'recs', it's all about the 'rec' my friend; they being not unlike 'the hit', 'the rush'. People seek their inclusion into the cult, the life, the gang, the familial/communal warmth that contributes to that likelihood. The immediate stop & cop is the 'appreciation thread'. One involving a DUer known & respected by all; it's a slam-dunk-given that even n00b's jam up on in great haste dropping 'appreciation thread' concerning known knowns after 'appreciation thread' concerning known knowns and so on. Kinda like casually pointing out to everyone standing round Hugh Jackman, "I think Hugh Jackman is gorgeous how bout you?" well...again a known known. And so all these sorts-of-things can be referred to as 'living the life'. However...

With such things comes the tweaker. The pointless tirade regarding a territorial altercation over the point, the barter over which we are some of us here at all i.e. "I am waaaay more Lib/Pro than you will ever be!!" "My cause is the only cause!!" "I hate level 4, now I have to *see* your ignored ass!!!!", etc. The edgy, behavioral, trap door spider response mechanisms. And I do think that in like manner the end result/final victimization is seen by reasonable people as the community itself, a dilution of it's purpose maybe, maybe not maybe that's what it was supposed to be all along. Who can say for sure? That line from the Rolling Stones song, Live With Me, is recalled at least for me too often when I come here to DU, especially lately or at least since the primaries in particular...

"They got ear phone heads, they got dirty beds. It's the 20th century"


But the people that wonder why there's more info & civil conduct at HuffPo are just too phunny, ya'gotta luv'em ya'just gotta!! :rofl:

[jaysunb]

116. You're right ! And I blame it on.....

:evilgrin:

[Grinchie]

119. I think its tha mass appointments of Corporate schills that has people worried

Not to mention the complete takeover of the Obama administration of the DLC clan.

We are all very shocked to see him bowled over by the real powerbrokers in Washington, especially before he even gets into office.

Too much regurgitated Clinton cronies to provide meaningful change. Vilsack, Gupta, Panetta, Emmanuel, et al.Looks like business as usual in Washington, and that's not what we voted for.

[Usrename]

120. far-left PTSD

Who are the commie-pinkos that you think inhabit DU?

Far-left?

WTF?

:wtf:

[FlaGranny]

121. Ain't that the truth.

This place is a zoo of ridulousness. The worst I've ever seen it.

[tomp]

122. If "D" in the white house is all that matters, you should be happy.

so sorry to spoil your du experience. forgive me but i was more concerned about MY du experience.

still waiting for change.

[JNelson6563]

127. Some don't know how to be winners, only whiners.

:toast:

[Solon]

137. Define "winners" were GLBT people winners on election day? n/t

[JNelson6563]

167. Were atheists? n/t

[Solon]

174. I don't know, were atheists categorically stripped of their rights on Election Day? n/t

[JNelson6563]

182. Part of the problem

here at DU is that some people turn every topic into a discussion of one thing. Prop 8. EVERY SINLGLE TOPIC.

Here in Michigan we didn't have a Prop 8 and if we did us foot soldiers would've soiled our shoes by going into every single neighborhood and precinct. I understand some areas weren't worked at all in California and those areas went real big against gay rights.

Still, we've got lots of people screaming bloody murder and perpetually dragging crosses about because one particular asshole has been invited to say the magic words to the invisible man in ths sky. Think on it. Now I read Obama has requested to add "so help me god" to his oath of office, oh hurray! More invisible man magic!

Of course none of this is policy so I won't be on the ledge considering ending it all just yet. As an atheist who is sick to death of invisible man stuff being shoved in my face and woven into my government I will once again turn a blind eye to the bullshit and hope that, when this initial craziness is over, our new President will be focusing on important things and will make good use of those solid majorities in Congress to positive changes.

That is how it is to win, you plan for victories ahead. But if you want to consider all hope lost and wallow in misery and self pity, be my guest. Be sure to drag a cross about constantly and fling shit at anyone who doesn't consider your cause to be the number one most important issue in all the world.

Julie--wondering if you realize how well you've demonstrated the OP's point

[Solon]

183. Classic DU: Blame the victim and say civil rights aren't your priority...

and you claim my post is the problem? At least now I know your opinions aren't worth shit.

[JNelson6563]

184. Classic DU: Work hard to alienate those who support your cause

Good luck with, well whatever it is you try to do. I will go out on a limb here and predict nothing bnut epic fail with your people skills.

What a sad soul.

Julie

[undeterred]

129. Wake up and smell the coffee.

A lot of people here are in economic distress and thereby undergoing a lot of stress. The country is a mess. Its understandable that a lot of people are angry.

[Uncle Joe]

130. I believe that diversity of opinion is the Democratic Party's strength, not it's weakness.

That's the price you pay for actually being the party of the people, whereas the Republicans represent the Borg mentality.

[slackmaster]

131. Some people are addicted to outrage and unable to enjoy the many victories we've won

Reminds me of someone I know.

[Solon]

136. Define "we" it seems that GLBT people suffered a defeat on the day of victory for others...

With one state stripping them of civil rights, and two others preventing them from ever having those civil rights, its seems that those who are celebrating seem to forget that some people have no reason to celebrate. Its easy to be flippant when you are secure in your own rights, when you have security, some people simply don't have that luxury.

[slackmaster]

139. Having a Democrat win the Presidency and a Democratic majority win Congress is a win for them

It's not everything they deserved or wanted, but it's still a win. A big one.

[Solon]

143. Like I said, its easy to be flippant and dismissive...

there are DUers right now whose marriages are in legal limbo, with the push to make Prop. 8 retroactive, they can see their marriages become invalidated in a court of law. For them, I doubt election day was much of a victory, and there is the question as to whether the Democratic party will do much, on a national level, to back them up.

[slackmaster]

149. That's not the fault of PE Obama or the newly sworn Congress

:shrug:

[Solon]

154. Did I place blame on either of them? The shrug says it all. n/t

[yodermon]

132. We can be happy undergound

right?

[DevonRex]

138. As long as it's not D. Underground, I guess so.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenTea]

135. The truth is the truth....DU has never been in existence with a Dem president in office....

and still hasn't!

Now that there will be a Dem president it's as important as ever for critical thinking and opinions, or we become just a bunch of Democratic ditto-heads - Republicans!

Being truthful aware people, we are not and should not just close our eyes to the facts...even if the Dems are wrong & fuck-up, or nothing will ever really change and we do indeed need change, and especially if they are Dems, we do have higher standards than the fucking republicans who believe they can do no wrong...

Some here want to believe that same bullshit, that a Dem can do no wrong....they want to have just a flowery sweet DU - A fantasy world where we all agree and frolic along in happiness here at DU - wouldn't that be so pleasant...UGH! Don't make me fucking sick!.......This is also what exactly occurred when Dems were so complacent & secure and everyone patting each other on the backs in 1994 and the republicans took over congress for the next 12 years....apathy!

DU is a forum for dissent, ideas and truth, speaking out when one believes bullshit politics are taking place, we're not only here to say everything is perfect simply because he's our guy, he can do no wrong....voluntary blindness will get us nowhere but back where we just came from, republican rule!

[ElboRuum]

141. I'll tell you.

Liberalism on DU (for some) has gone from a philosophical framework to discuss progressive change and its implementation to some kind of fundamentalist religion where we persecute perceived heretics in the name of our individual God issues.

That's what happened to this place.

[RobinA]

153. True, In Part

but perceived heretics have alway been persecuted here. There's always been a good bit more liberal positions expressed here than actual practice of liberalism.

[Orsino]

142. The nation and the world are in crisis. Crises.

People are hurting. Fewer warm fuzzies are available.

I doubt that much of this is DU's fault.

[xxqqqzme]

148. I was delighted to find DU in '02.

Great LBN forum I depended on; could find topical articles and opinion pieces; exposure to emerging as well as established authors; tons of facts on everything; food for thought pieces...I hardly look @ LBN anymore; the opinion pieces have dried up; the civility has soured....I love this site but it is getting harder & harder to visit.

[FriendlyReminder]

156. Hey, let's give him some lattitude until he has the POWER of policy to DO SOMETHING

Sheesh, how hard is that concept folks.

[AtomicKitten]

158. It is rather disconcerting to see the notion of hope pissed on with great regularity here.

The predictions are made with such certainty followed by choosing up sides to battle it out over said predictions. And the cult of personality politics has reared its ugly head around here with dramatic posturing, accusations, and hissyfits based on assumptions. It's ridiculous.

Hey, I am appalled by Obama's foreign policy team choices, but what matters is when rubber meets the road and Obama's actual foreign policy emerges. It is possible I'll be barking too at some point, but I seen no point getting pissy prematurely. But that's me.

I also don't feel guilty for looking forward with great anticipation to the inauguration. I waited eight long-ass years for that day and I intend to celebrate til the cows come home.

And then the hard work beings. That's when substantive discussions about policy begin.

[Forkboy]

159. "What the Hell's going on out here?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV5bGHdYag

[quickesst]

163. Number one....

....a large segment of the left are angry because the fantasy they created during Obama's run to the presidency did not somehow magically morph into reality. All they had to do was listen, and they could have followed their conscience and went with Nader, or another loser. Second, Obama's a winner, and many people on the left cannot abide a democrat winning the White House, this time mainly because of number one, or mass hypnosis perpetrated by right-wing operatives. It's hard to tell. Third, since the fantasy didn't pan out(again), they are now working to undermine any chance for re-election of Obama in order to find a new candidate they can weave a new fantasy around, and will have four years to deny that disappointment will be the order of the day. They have help in the form of Pelosi and Reid, who are at this moment growing the spines many of us have hoped for the last eight years. Problem is, their new-found bravery is aimed at one of their own, while punishment for the criminal activity of the soon-departed Bushista regime is "off the table".
Will DU go back to the haven it once was? Probably not until there is another repuke occupying the White House, who like Bush, should have made us realize that the problems many have with Obama pale in comparison. Thanks.
quickesst

[DevonRex]

164. That was a pretty good post. Thanks. nt

[jillan]

172. I second that.

[otohara]

166. "This Place" Has it's Problems

but there's no other site I like as much.

Herding cats...

[jackpan1260]

168. Some people live to complain.

You should meet some of my in laws.

[psychmommy]

169. i noticed that the weekends are much calmer and more du like.

i checked it out last weekend and felt good here again. the du we love is here it is just being muted.

[RiverStone]

171. The ol complaint freight train still as lots of mo from Shrub

When people actually experience Obama on The Hill as the MAN, it will start to sink in.

Your OP is right on, but have faith - a big blue wave is about to hit! :hi:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

177. Yeah it's become pretty shitty. This "in between" time since NOV has been filled

with a lot of indulgent vitriol.

DU was my home page for years, that changed this week because I've just had it with the tone SINCE Obama got elected. How ridiculous. It's almost worse than the primaries.

I'm coming less and less, and, as per my PM discussion with another DUer, my participation is now "hanging by a thread", and I don't think I'm the only one.

I didn't expect nonstop praise and dancing after Obama's win, but I would expect a board of purported Democrats to try to be at least a little circumspect in tone prior to the guy even taking office, yeah that's right, even IF there were substantial disagreements and disappointments in the appointments and preliminary period.

I agree with the poster downthread -- I feel as though people who really disliked Obama and never wanted to see him elected in the first place are taking advantage of any opening to rip Obama and this board apart. A combination of people who supported a different candidate and never got over it, whether from this party or another, most likely.

There's no question that there are disappointments in some of the appointments, Rick Warren, etc. But to scan the first page or two of the leading forums here you'd think Obama was the worst president in the history of the world, and he hasn't even taken office. Ridiculous.

[Dem2theMax]

179. I know what you mean. I used to spend about three or four hours a day on DU.

And it was my homepage.

Not now.

I'd be surprised if I spend an hour a week here now.

There is enough hatred and fighting in the world. I don't need to come to DU to get more of the same.

It's sad.

[Phoonzang]

180. Yeah I can't really stand the place anymore.

Yet I keep coming here and I get pissed off withing 10 seconds. It's nothing but "WAAAAAHH WAAAAHAHA WAAAAHHHHH" now. I guess when an enemy is defeated allies turn on each other. They need to fight. Human nature.

[LWolf]

186. DU is fractured.

People who put issues secondary to party, who need a team to cheer on, and who just want to "win" elections...they are happy right now.

People who didn't pay attention, who are into denial, and who choose to continue to create all kinds of convoluted spin about how reality is different than the evidence suggests...they are busy right now.

People who vote for a Democrat because they want to see the nation move left of center, see liberal issues moved forward, and they believe, for some reason, that the Democratic Party represents anyone left of center, are hanging onto hope, while their concern mounts.

People who understand that the mainstream Democratic Party is not left of center, and that the nation has elected a center-right Democrat to the white house, are gearing up for a long, hard battle.

Please remember that, in addition to supporting Democrats for office, DU is supposed to be "one of the premier left-wing websites." I disagree with that; DU is more centrist than left-wing these days, but since the left-wing is still identified as a part of DU, some of us are still here.

When the goals of the left conflict with the goals of the party, cognitive dissonance occurs.

The election is over. There is nothing in the rules about supporting Democrats who are already elected.

[sniffa]

188. I hope you don't come back from your drive by