For those that think Michael Moore should "shut up" concerning healthcare,

[mmonk]

I think you should go find someone in your community that has gone through bankrupcy because of medical bills and tell them Michael Moore's views are irrelevant, especially given that we are the only industrialized modern nation with wealth where that is allowed to occur.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. I think he should shut up, but not because his views are irrelevant.

More like because his touch is toxic and the issue is too important to have tainted by his presence.

Mind you - I don't think Moore's that bad, certainly no where near as bad as the Limbaughs and Coulters on the right. But the MSM have depicted him as some kind of monster, and perception is reality in politics.

[mmonk]

2. Actually, I think we'd be better served by backing up those

with legitimate viewpoints and concerns.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. I'd rather back them up through an Obama or Clinton. (nt)

[MessiahRp]

34. LOL like either of them will ever champion Moore's issues

Their healthcare plans are giveaways to HMOs and Pharmaceuticals. Moore is advocating for a REAL Universal Healthcare system that would actually work.

Rp

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. Their healthcare plans are a first step towards the right direction.

We're just not going to wake up one morning and have universal health care. There are a lot of minds to change first, and very powerful HMOs and Pharmaceuticals to work around. You're delusional if you think we're going to jump to what Canada has immediately without some steps in between.

[MessiahRp]

44. Yeah and those steps inbetween will fail and any future chance at Universal Healthcare dies

I don't even think this is about baby steps as much as it is about greasing some political donors with money (aka the Insurance and Pharmaceutical Industries). If Obama or any of the so-called Democrats that seem all to eager to kowtow the corporate line had any guts or spine oncesoever they would take them on. The public is most the way with them and the ones that aren't have only been swayed by media perception... a perception Democrats have LET THEM get away with for years.

At some point these cowards have to toughen up and fight.

Rp

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

46. I won't disagree that we've done a piss poor job in marketing our ideas.

It hasn't helped that we're up against billionaire corporations and a complicit media, while our side really doesn't have much of an organized or funded front specifically for universal. That's partly due to the fact that we keep bickering amongst ourselves about the details of what it would look like rather than the principle itself. I think it has far less to do with guts and spine than it does with organization and money. I also don't think the public is nearly as far along as you do, but if you've got a poll to prove me wrong, I would greatly appreciate if you could link it for me.

[MessiahRp]

45. dupe

double post

[bvar22]

59. Their Plans are a step in the WRONG direction.

Channeling Billions of Taxpayer Dollars into the pockets of the For Profit Health Insurance Industry and calling it "Universal HealthCare" will make it near impossible to establish a Single Payer system.

[bread_and_roses]

67. polls show broad based support for some form of universal care

and for a government role in providing it, even if it means higher taxes. people are sick of this system, and finally waking up to the idiocy of expecting "care" from a profit-driven industry. Now is the time to push universal single-payer, not the time for measly, mincing, "baby steps" of incrementalism in fear of the rapacious private profiteers, who are finally - between the public's disgust with corporate executive pay/perks and the public disgust at the state of our health system - being seen as the exploiters they are.

[dflprincess]

70. Neither Obama or Clinton have plans to improve access to health care

they just want everyone to have health insurance which doesn't mean you'll be able to afford healthcare after the deductibles and copays.

[trumad]

3. Sanrf---so we should bow to the MSM?

LOL

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. That's like saying you should run directly into a brick wall

instead of finding a way around it or over it.

We can't compete with the MSM. Like it or not, they have way more power than we do. We have to be smarter.

[mmonk]

6. We certainly can't compete if we don't enter the game.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. And how do we enter?

You got a billion dollars lying around? Blogs only do so much.

[T Wolf]

15. The M$M does have a weak point - the individuals who select, produce, and bring us the propaganda

message.

That is the point that should be attacked if the message is to be changed.

Like the colonists who fought the British. They did not stand in neat, uniformed lines and face the British army on their terms. The rebels hid behind trees and fired.

To attack an enemy at their strength is worse than stupid.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. I don't necessarily believe that's a weak point.

How do your attacks get broadcast to the masses? Again, the Internet can only do so much, and all the while, the MSM can thwart the attackers by depicting them the same way. So far as I'm concerned, what you're describing is exactly the opposite of what the colonists did and is attacking the enemy at their strength - which is their ability to overpower other messages through sheer force.

[T Wolf]

22. Maybe I was not clear. The corporate media is not an inanimate entity. The decisions are made

and actions carried out by people and as individuals, they are vulnerable.

As there have been no consequences for Bush for his law-breaking, he continued to do it.

If there are no personal consequences for the people who, e.g, read the propaganda on air, there is no reason for them to stop doing so. If the individuals who spew the shit actually had to worry that they PERSONALLY would suffer consequences for their actions, they might be hesitant to participate in that action.

To use another example... If a polluting corporation is only fined, it simply factors that "cost" into their balance sheet. If the CEO's kids had the toxic waste pumped down their throats, maybe the decisions that executive make would be different.

Understand, now?

In a battle between unequals, guerrilla warfare is the only option for the weaker side.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. That is more clear, thank you.

And that's another issue altogether. Your ideas certainly have merits, though I'm not sure where Moore fits into that equation. If you feel that he does, I would be grateful for your thoughts as to why.

[T Wolf]

29. He really doesn't. Trying to promote him as a rival to the corporate media is simply playing on

their home court. I do not see victory coming in that venue because, in the current environment, we CANNOT compete with the M$M, either on their networks or by pushing the net as an alternative method of getting "our" message out.

Michael and his mode (movies) has benefits to our side, but is only a minor offset to the weapons of mass disinformation the enemy possesses. We must change the way we "play the game."

[mmonk]

23. By not giving up and by organizing.

Start by pushing current legislation efforts.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. 'Entering' is EXACTLY what Michael Moore is doing.

These people aren't against him because he's a slob, or because he's aggressive, or because he's rude.
They are against him because he is RIGHT. And he is playing in THEIR ballpark - on film and on TV. That's why they are trying to marginalize him, with the collaboration of 'liberals' who are embarassed by loud talk.

[L0oniX]

10. I think we need to fight the game. Health care is not a game when you get sick.

[trumad]

48. Sure we can...

We've been doing since the invention of blogs and fourms like DU.

Go ahead and roll over if you want.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

50. I think you're way overvaluing the power of blogs and forums.

I highly, highly doubt that DU has ever changed a single person's mind. Nor do I believe that HuffPo, Kos, Freeperville, or any of the other political blogs have done so, and I doubt there's any real evidence to support that.

They do, however, a great job of organizing like-minded individuals, which is their power.

[trumad]

69. So you're worried about the Morans out there?

[L0oniX]

7. We don't need to let the media distortion of what a socialist is to work against...

a health care solution. The media is not our friend and they can't be trusted. Reality is reality in my life. The reality of politics has been lies, cheats and schemes.

[mmonk]

11. By not giving up and by organizing.

Start by pushing current legislation efforts.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. No, but it means being smarter about how we message things.

If you're Michael Moore, you take every precaution necessary to make sure your message is as bulletproof as possible. Much as I like him, he has been a bit haphazard in that regard. Mind you, not to the degree with which the media and the right paint him, but that ship has long since sailed.

We need to push alongside better messengers - Obama for one, Senators like Jim Webb or Governors like Brian Schweitzer for another. You automatically fail at your job as a messenger if 1/2 the country will never bother to listen to you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. You are wrong. Has anybody successfully sued him?

Has ANY point he made in SICKO been disproved?

He IS bulletproof. That's why the MSM and their shills are relying on innuendo and slander, because they can't fight his arguments.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. The standard for defamation litigation for a public figure is nigh impossible to reach.

That's why few ever do it, and I'd point to Roger Clemens being a perfectly example as to why it doesn't happen. Furthermore, whether or not there's litigation against him has precious little to do with his credibility. There are plenty of jackasses in the media that never get sued and that doesn't make them more or less legitimate.

[harun]

9. You don't want everyone to the left of Obama and Clinton

to shut-up because otherwise they would be easily defeated on health care reform.

Unlike you I do not submit to the will of the MSM, and never will.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Have fun running into the brickwall.

Submission =/= the use of any other tactics than those you ascribe to.

By the way, telling Michael Moore to shut up also =/= telling everyone to the left of Obama to shut up. Not by a long shot. What made Wellstone so great was that he was a very progressive man that knew how to message things so that he didn't sound radical. That's why the conspiracy theorists believe he was killed and that his death was no accident.

[peace13]

18. I have a nice glass of kool-aid for you..mmmmmmm

It will make life easier for you! :)

[peace13]

17. He speaks the truth and those who sit on their butts and tell him to be quiet

deserve what they get. I am very tired of people who do absolutely nothing in this country. That is why we are in the *ell hole that we are. How many people actually pick up the phone and call their senators about anything? With exception of the far right Christians the answer is...not many.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. But if no one believes he speaks the truth, of what value is that?

Moore could have videotape of Bush giving Bin Laden a handjob in a Minnesota bathroom, and 2/3rds of the country would say it was doctored, or that he conned them into doing it. That's not only not useful, that's harmful to the cause.

Screaming "just do something" is not a political strategy. And if you want evidence, is abortion not still legal? If yelling and screaming and calling Senators were the way to get things done, it would've been deemed illegal a very long time ago, because those far right Christians that make the phone calls you describe would have accomplished something.

[Bullet1987]

19. Moore is the only reason universal healthcare is being taken seriously

So why would you want him to shut up? Nobody could watch that movie and come out feeling fine.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. People were taking universal healthcare seriously long, long before "Sicko"

Thanks for playing. :wave:

[mmonk]

24. The people were fooled into thinking politicians were interested

and still are fooled. They are for rearranging private insurance but still insuring they profit from the system without much sacrifice and calling it change. And the people say "ok", they really care about our plight.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. Gephardt was very serious about it when he ran for President.

Granted, he had other flaws, but it was the primary reason I supported him in 2004.

[karynnj]

56. So was Kerry, who had the plan that healthcare advocates

said was the best of the 2004 lot - Kerry included an innovative idea - reinsurance of catastrophic costs - which came from his seeing the problems from a small business perspective. Many companies had to drop insurance after they had one high cost employee - the reinsurance in effect created a single payer fund that paid out extraordinary costs.

Kerry used (very effectively) the fact that health care costs as they were put the US automakers at a huge disadvantage.

Edwards covered just kids, but I think every other Democrat covered nearly everyone if they chose.

[Moochy]

27. Supine Capitulation to Right wing Media For the Win!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. Not bothering to read or understand posts before commenting for the win!

[Moochy]

36. I read it

Everyone should accept the right wing smears of Michael Moore as is. We can't fight it. It just makes us look bad to have Moore speak out on anything because he's tainted.

I think that sums it up pretty concisely.

Oh and it's pretty big of you to admit that "you don't think Moore's that bad". He compares well to Limbaugh eh? :eyes:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. Your last two sentences sum it up correctly.

Your first one is way off the mark. We shouldn't accept it, but it is what it is.

As far as me being "pretty big", please spare me the rolling eyes - you know full well that Moore is most often compared to those assholes. And no, I don't buy the comparison, but while I'm busy fighting in reality, you're off playing in fantasy land where everyone's going to magically change their opinions about Moore without any real strategy as to how we might do accomplish that.

So please, give me a fucking road map. Show me how we restore Moore's legitimacy.

[Moochy]

78. Thanks for clarifying

No snark. I just don't have any road maps for you, I don't know what to tell you about rehabilitating Michael Moore's image among right wingers.

And now,I'm heading back to Fantasy Land!!! Yo Tinkerbell!!! :P

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Never mind the fact that he is right, huh? nt

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. Again, perception is reality in politics.

It matters not that he is right. We need others to send his message.

[mikelgb]

35. You could have said the same thing about John Kerry

"well he got swift boated so now the perception of him is ruined.... so he should shut up, his touch is toxic... his very presence has a TAINT (that would make Burris blush in shame) ... lets toss him aside ... damaged goods..."

or we could continue to defend and back them because we know they are right and they have been systematically smeared by the liberal media.

Moore is right

Gupta was wrong

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

42. The time to defend Kerry was then, not now.

Same with Moore. It's too late, the damage is done. We must do a better job of defending our new leaders than we did back then.

Moore IS right. Gupta WAS wrong. But I dare you to ask 5 people on the street whom they'd sooner believe, and Gupta still wins that battle every time. That is the problem I'm talking about.

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. Only if you stop it there. Surrender the field.

That is the time to explain to those who believe Gupta exactly WHY Gupta was wrong, and how Moore is right, and back it up with facts.

Most people really like facts. And they will change their minds if you are careful to frame it as "you were lied to" rather than "you are wrong".

To cede the battle to Gupta is to cede the battle to ignorance.

But the fact is, regardless of THIS particular argument, the gun community will never forgive Moore for Bowling for Columbine.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

51. How do you accomplish getting the facts to people?

Keeping in mind, of course, that the MSM can intervene at their whim.

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. By being Michael Moore, and making films that tell the truth. nt

[karynnj]

57. The fact is that the very word "swiftboat" means to lie

That means that the cw is that Kerry is what the Navy always said he was - a hero. In addition, he is a statesman with a stature that Moore never attained.

[eridani]

37. Brilliant. Just continue to accept Repuke framing

Never challenge the whackjob conservative worldview.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

41. Did I say never challenge them? Really?

I don't seem to think I did, only that Moore is not the one to do it.

[eridani]

52. Moore doing it. That's why the MSM is swiftboating him

Was Kerry a bad candidate because of the swiftboating?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

54. He would be today because of the swiftboating.

The ship has sailed on both of them.

[eridani]

55. OK, so Moore should never run for public office

I don't have a problem with that. SiCKO is on thousands of DVDs, a real product that people can actually watch for themselves, however.

[lame54]

66. We are only talking about it in such a broad forum because of him

[brentspeak]

68. We wouldn't even be discussing the pathetic state of U.S. health care if it weren't for Moore

[tsuki]

74. I so love it when Democrats have each others back. nt

[demodonkey]

14. NOBODY should shut up. This is a national disgrace that is ruining lives and killing people.

Single-payer healthcare for all. We can't afford NOT to do this.

[xchrom]

28. recommend

[ananda]

38. The MEDIA should shut up.

The Michael Moore's of this world
should ALWAYS speak out!

[polichick]

53. Michael Moore is a true American hero, one who dares to talk about...

...this country's disgusting secrets ~ all the things that shows American propaganda to be exactly what it is.

[bvar22]

60. Michael Moore is the only ....

..private American citizen that has been attacked from the podium during a presidential State of the Union address (AFAIK).
THAT is how much the Corporate Party FEARS MM.

We need MORE Michael Moores.
THAT is how we fight these greedy bastards (Democrats & Republicans).

Mandatory For Profit Private Health Insurance

is NOT

Universal Health Care!

[zulchzulu]

61. Anyone who says Michael Moore should shut up is an idiot

Like him or not, his documentaries are great for people to watch. Are they perfect or completely accurate all the time?

No.

But he at least is addressing some serious issues with what's wrong with this country with his brand of humor, irony and skills at getting people mobilized to try to do something about the issues he addresses.

I personally own all of his documentaries and got a chance to show "Bowling For Columbine", "Fahrenheit 9/11" and "Sicko" this past holiday season to some people who lean Republican and they were amused and changed by those videos. They had never seen a Moore movie before and were laughing and crying like the rest of us who've seen these movies. It's entertainment with some political commentary on the side.

If it's a Gupta vs. Moore issue regarding Gupta attacking Moore's "Sicko", Moore proved to be more correct than Gupta.

If it's an issue where Gupta shouldn't be Surgeon General, that's pretty vapid. Gupta won't do policy, is not part of the Obama cabinet and could do a good job educating people on issues like obesity, exercise, AIDS, sexual awareness and whatever else... he won't get on a soap box saying universal healthcare is bad... maybe he learned a thing or two from his battle with Moore and can see the obvious when it comes to healthcare reform.

Let Moore be Moore. Let Gupta be Surgeon General. If Gupta screws up again, you can bet Moore will take issue with him.

[MelissaB]

62. My first cousin died because of lack of health care and my brother is in deep trouble.

I'll not shut up.

[Writer]

63. I think we all appreciate Michael Moore's exploratory documentaries, but he is not a health care...

professional. I think we need to keep that in mind. His goal is to reflect the populist view, not to provide expertise.

[blendermax]

65. You don't have to be a 'professional'

to understand that the healthcare system is beyond screwed up

[Writer]

71. But you do in order to find workable solutions. n/t

[blendermax]

73. Are you saying that Moore has no credibility on the subject of healthcare?

do you have to be an expert on something in order to have an opinion or speak out on something?

do you have to be an expert on climate change in order to believe that global warming is real?

Obama is certainly not an expert on it, but he sure thinks global warming is real.

[Runcible Spoon]

76. I'd say he has more experience with investigating healthcare problems than Gupta does

Yeah sure, Gupta's a neurosurgeon but beyond that his public outreach experience is limited to whoring it up on CNN.

[avaistheone1]

79. I agree. Moore has researched the issue of health care policy

and insurance needs to much greater extent than Gupta could ever hope to match.

Gupta has no interest or passion for this issue. Gupta is a media pretty boy doc. I think Gupta thinks he is upper caste, and doesn't think working people's and middle class people's access to health care is much of an issue in this country. Gupta is wrong. He should stay with his current job and keep smiling for the top brass at CNN.

[blendermax]

64. Moore has done more good for this country

than all the Repubs and Dems in Washington put together.

[HootieMcBoob]

72. I agree n/t

[Cleita]

75. Michael Moore should never shut up, never!!

True :patriot:

[AtomicKitten]

77. I think everybody has wanted some public figure to STFU at one time or another.

I had that very thought about Diane Feinstein recently.

It's just hyperbole. The stuff which fuels DU rants.