Tim Kaine on abortion, stem cells, same-sex marriage, civil unions, and labor issues.

[madfloridian]

Yes, I know he is from VA and must believe that way.

Kaine on the Issues. Abortion

"Promote abstinence; ban partial-birth abortion
I will reduce abortion in Virginia by enforcing current Virginia restrictions, passing an enforceable ban on partial-birth abortion, ensuring women’s access to health care (including legal contraception), and promoting abstinence-focused education and adoption. We should reduce abortion in this manner, rather than by criminalizing women and doctors.
Source: Campaign website www.kaine2005.org, “Issues” Nov 8, 2005

I have a faith-based opposition to abortion
I have a faith-based opposition to abortion. As governor, I will work in good faith to reduce abortions by:

1. Enforcing the current Virginia restrictions on abortion and passing an enforceable ban on partial birth abortion that protects the life and health of the mother;
2. Fighting teen pregnancy through abstinence-focused education;
3. Ensuring women’s access to health care (including legal contraception) and economic opportunity; and
4. Promoting adoption as an alternative for women facing unwanted pregnancies.

Too often politicians are interested in scoring political points, rather than in reducing the number of abortions. Many of the legislative proposals introduced in the General Assembly, like the ones to require unnecessary building standards for doctor’s offices that perform abortions, are just political grandstanding. They encourage division and lawsuits rather than contributing to the goal of reducing abortions.
Source: Campaign website www.kaine2005.org, “Issues” Nov 8, 2005"

Kaine on stem cell research

WASHINGTON - While Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine said he supports the $500,000 allocation in the budget bill lawmakers approved last month to fund adult stem cell research in Virginia, he does not want to see taxpayer money used for embryonic stem cell research.

“I don’t think we should be publicly funding it in Virginia,” Kaine, who is Catholic, said Tuesday during his monthly appearance on WTOP radio. “You will not see me proposing that. I think there are huge advances that can be made in adult stem cell research. I think that’s the way to go.”

Kaine on the same-sex marriage and civil unions

The state also saw the swearing-in today in of a new governor, Democrat Tim Kaine, who opposes both same-sex marriage and civil unions. He has promised to sign the measure that places the amendment on the ballot after the Senate passes the proposal once more. Even more depressing is that measures that would have limited the scope of the amendment's discrimination were deep-sixed. (WashBlade):

Kaine spokeswoman Delacey Skinner said that the governor-elect will sign the bill to call for a referendum. Kaine supports the amendment and opposes civil unions, she said. She added that he is interested in discussing measures “to make sure people can still be able to contract with each other.”

However, efforts to limit the scope of the vaguely worded amendment were defeated. Del. Kristen J. Amundson’s (D-District 44) amendment, which received only 35 votes, would have eliminated all language except for: “Only a union between one man and one woman may be a marriage valid in or recognized by this Commonwealth and its political subdivisions.”

Del. Vivian Watts’ (D-District 39) amendment was also rejected by a vote of 36 to 60. She proposed including a clarification that the amendment would not change “any other right, benefit, obligation or legal status pertaining to persons not married.”

Kaine on labor issues and right to work issues.

Kaine:"I am saddened that the House leadership has chosen the Washington style path of partisanship by rejecting a good and capable man...The Secretary of the Commonwealth has no - I repeat, no - role in the enforcement of Virginia's right-to-work law, a law I strongly support."

I added the emphasis. I could see a guy making a statement--though I still think it would be a sad comment--that he would enforce the laws of Virginia, which includes right-to-work. But to say publicly he STRONGLY SUPPORTS anti-union laws is unacceptable.

.."Supporting Right to Work laws which make it impossible to organize a union is one of them. It's just not ok for workers to have no opportunity to stand up for themselves against abusive labor practices

[Bluebear]

1. I can already feel the change!

[Dr.Phool]

104. Change we can make believe in!

[ooglymoogly]

195. Change we are expected to 'make believe' in. nt

[rudy23]

229. That's golden. Let's keep that one handy. nt

[donco6]

294. It's washing all over me!

And it's so warm . . . and golden . . . and, hey, it smells a little funny . . .

[Freddie Stubbs]

338. Change: not having ideological purity tests for party leaders

[dflprincess]

339. It would be nice if the chair of the Democratic party was actually a Democratic

and not a DINO.

[Freddie Stubbs]

340. It would be nice if some Democrats were not so narrow-minded as to their definition of

what constitutes a Democrat.

[dflprincess]

341. Some issues are not negotiable

and that includes Gay rights, reproductive rights, stem cell research, and labor.

I expect the Democratic party to stand for something besides political expediency.

[Freddie Stubbs]

344. How will him being DNC Chairman affect those issues?

:shrug:

[wyldwolf]

2. good thing the DNC chair doesn't set policy, huh?

[madfloridian]

4. Yeh, yeh, what a relief.

Doesn't mean a damn thing he was chosen, now does it?

Of course our party is going to stand behind labor, gays, women, and stem cell research.

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

6. that the DNC chair doesn't set policy means plenty

[madfloridian]

10. Yes, how lucky our last one couldn't set policy.

We would all be in deep doo doo by now, wouldn't we? He supported all the things Kaine doesn't, but he's out on his ear.

[wyldwolf]

20. yes, actually

:)

[Vanje]

9. People!! Calm down!! Its ONLY a TWO MINUTE PRAYER!!!!1!!1!!

No. He rides in a convertable in a parade and waves and throws candy.

[donco6]

295. Same thing I thought. How long is that argument going to last?

It's like the energizer bunny.

"It doesn't mean anything!"

Bullshit.

[firedupdem]

3. Anything good going on with this guy? n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. He knows how to win election in areas where Republicans usually dominate

[firedupdem]

11. well that's good! Jeez... n/t

[yardwork]

17. By becoming a Republican in all but name! We don't need that kind of win.

[VADem11]

27. He is not a DINO

Kaine is definitely not a progressive but he isn't a blue dog type either.

[Freddie Stubbs]

189. You would have preferred Jerry Kilgore as VA's Governor?

:shrug:

[11 Bravo]

194. Fuck that, I live in VA and we definitely DID need that kind of win.

Jerry Kilgore was the alternative, and he is a hard-right, fundie, nut job. I'm not willing to live with the consequences of your demand for ideological purity.

[DutchLiberal]

304. What's the difference with Tim Kaine?

When it comes to choice, gay rights, stem cells and labor, he sounds exactly like a "hard-right, fundie, nut job".

[femrap]

232. He won. He no longer

has to lick the Repugnants shoes. Yet he gives Kaine (who is nothing more than a Repugnant who wants to be on the winning side) the job of leading the DNC. He enjoys oppressing over half of our population.

I am simply aghast. Democrats are the 'new Republicans.' And the Republicans are the 'new Fascists.'

I don't see any f*cking change except for the worst! Just as BO answered HRC in one of the debates when discussing his quotes on the Reagan Administration:

"I didn't say what policies I liked of his administration."

And now I hear: "I didn't say what kind of change I planned to do."

Why do the Dems constantly kowtow to the Right, the Wealthy, and the Corporations? Is there really any difference between the parties?

Just more hand-outs from the printing press and deeper in debt. It makes no sense.

[DireStrike]

276. By running republicans, right? -nt-

[LostinVA]

33. He's anti death penalty

[yardwork]

38. It's a start.

[LostinVA]

44. No, it's not a start -- it just shows he's not a hypocrite

The Church is anti DP. Kaine is a devout Catholic, and doesn't hide it.

We have a Party Chairman who is anti choice, anti marriage equality (EVEN civil unions)and other GLBT rights, anti stem cells, pro abstinence classes, etc. The ONLY difference between his views and most Repubs is the DP. Hell, Olympia Snowe is way more liberal than he is.

[yardwork]

45. It's a false start. So far, hope and change is not off to a good start at all.

[LostinVA]

49. My heart sank when I came on here this evening and saw Kaine was chosen

I swear I would rather have Collins or Snowe head of the DNC instead.

[dflprincess]

51. Well, it is change - a big change from Howard Dean

Should we start a pool on how big the midterms losses will be in 2010?

[yardwork]

58. Maybe they'll be huge gains for the Democrats as all the Republicans become Dems.

And we'll have a single-party system with a platform identical to this year's Republican Party's.

[dflprincess]

69. Good point

You could be right.

[Generator]

308. Yeah and half of DU would be thrilled with that

Especially the Obama cultists. Afterall, it doesn't matter what you do or what you stand for-it only matters that you WIN! That made Obama a genius and a hero. That's all it takes. Maybe most of us are shitbags ourselves. All we want is to win!!!??? Win WHAT? What the fuck have we won??? EVER??? TELL ME. We have a figurehead that is smart and sells us out. YIPPEE.
We have sold our souls over and over again. The very fact that the worst administration in history will never face any accountability is proof we LOST. The war is still going on and on and on. Did anyone see that nice ole Embassy in Iraq? Where's the great Obama on that? Oh yeah. no problem with that either.

[Jamastiene]

168. I HOPE this horrible downward spiral into becoming the Republican Party

CHANGES soon. I guess he did a half assed job of the HOPE and CHANGE theme. I hope for change.

[MountainLaurel]

218. Oh goody

So he doesn't want fetuses or convicted criminals to die, but women hemorrhaging from self-induced abortions are A-OK.

[LostinVA]

222. But yet he's signed off on eight executions

Ugh.

[MountainLaurel]

224. I guess God told him they deserved it n/t

[LostinVA]

225. Seriously

[nolabels]

246. Why be serious when the government plays political jokes with the general publics lives?

Somehow i never got why people give so many give a pass with things they know are wrong. Why is societies acceptance of practice a way to do business. Because society accepts or even endorses it should be an indication that it is good for the civilization and rest of the world. We are all still being held hostage of the antiquated idea of the king's decree if you asked me. Just because someone utters it from their lips does not mean it should be done. Our political system is still way broken, if they tell you different you will also know they are liars :shrug:

[kenfrequed]

291. Not much spine there

Anti-death penalty huh?

Well how bold of him, especially when you compare him to former Governor Ryan of Illinois who claimed to be pro-death penalty initially but decided during his term to declare a moratorium on the death penalty during his term.

This is, unfortunately, why many people do not respect Democrats. Our elected officials rarely stand up for our principles.

[quidam56]

113. He's been a horrible governor as far as environment and health care in very deep Red SWVA.

As a resident of Wise County, Virginia Tim Kaine has been a miserable let down. http://www.wisecountyissues.com He's just another politician who doesn't care. Appalachia is truly a toxic waste dump third world America. MRSA is everywhere and heavy metals are in our watersheds.

[byeya]

176. Kaine

I'm from the mtns of VA & voted for Kaine only because of the alternative. He's been a lousy governor in my opinion and will be a disaster as party head especially when compared with Dr Dean. He's a weak shadow of Mark Warner as governor.

[LostinVA]

223. Exactly -- who was I going to vote for, that Nazi KIlgore???

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. I'm sure that President-elect Obama was unaware of Kaine's policy positions when he chose him

[QC]

70. DIANNE FEINSTEIN PICKED HIM!!!1!!!11!

[yardwork]

72. Oh, well that's all right then. Not.

[bluedawg12]

83. Too kewl! We were getting way too far left, by golly.

[Politicalboi]

117. Whaaaaaaaaat!

You mean the same Dianne Frankenstein here in Ca. I hope San Fransisco remembers this next election. Good thing Obama didn't pick him for VP.

[LostinVA]

173. whoosh

[NWHarkness]

82. Uh, yeah, right

They vetted him for VP, but didn't ask him his position on any policies?

[Freddie Stubbs]

188. Perhaps they thought it was a different Tim Kaine

;)

Or perhaps Obama is well aware of Kaine's policy stances but want him as DNC Chairman anyway. I suppose either explanation is plausible.

[donco6]

296. Are you serious, or just fooling around? n/t

[pecwae]

330. snap!

How long will this excuse hold water?

[Tesha]

7. There's a name for people who hold those political positions: "Republican"

Maybe he's about to chair the wrong party???

Tesha

[shayes51]

329. I agree.

And look what happened when the Republicans started encouraging these right wingers to join their party. Eventually they took over and embraced Sarah Palin.

[Autumn]

12. Damn.

Thank goodness I got over being a Yellow Dog Democrat.

[Bluebear]

13. Don't overreact, Tim Kaine will only be singing ONE SONG. nt

[yardwork]

14. Howard Dean, I miss you already.

[hulklogan]

15. And we could have had Kaine as VP!

Well done Mr. President Elect :sarcasm:

[Captain Hilts]

16. He believes that way because he's a serious Catholic, NOT because he's in VA. nt

[madfloridian]

18. But because he's in VA it was the way to win.

I understand all that now.

:shrug:

[spooky3]

185. Obama won here.

[Thothmes]

31. So far he has not allowed his religious views to interfere

with his duties as governor. He has let several executions take place. If I remember correctly, he has only prevented one execution in a state that is 3rd in # of executions.

[MasonJar]

43. Oh, now that is encouraging. He hasn't allowed a single gay marriage

or scientific advance through stem cell research and he is promoting the totally useless abstinence education , but he allows the death penalty to go ahead even against his religion. Great choices and great agenda. Surely I do NOT need to place the Sarcasm frame on this post.

[Muttocracy]

91. well, there goes that anti-death penalty bit of encouragement. nt

[LostinVA]

174. I didn't say it wasn't a HOLLOW bit of encouragement

[theHandpuppet]

326. Not a single gay marriage....

... and even worse, Virginia passed some of the most gay-hating laws in the nation. My partner and I lost desperately needed joint health benefits, even though the company she works for had been providing them for years.

[yardwork]

52. LOL! Do you have a bridge to sell me too?

[keepCAblue]

213. The Republicans didn't lose in 2008...they just changed...

their party affiliation.

The US is now officially a one-party political pony.

[kenfrequed]

284. And that is the greatest indictment

Well aside from the economically conservative thing.

Honestly he could claim to be a morally consistant Catholic (who I would disagree with on his stance on abortion) if he would merely be strong agaisnt the death penalty. But no, this isn't at all about his religious character. This is about embracing republican ideas while feigning at being a democrat. He is completely useless and inside of twenty years he will be Zell Miller.

How the hell could anyone pick him to be in charge of the DNC?

[ProSense]

19. Kaine ultimately spoke out against the VA ban on gay marriage

Kaine opposes Va. amendment

Governor, activists decry gay union ban for different reasons

JOSHUA LYNSEN
Thursday, April 13, 2006

Gov. Tim Kaine is urging Virginians to vote against a proposed constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage because he fears it could have unintended consequences.

Kaine, a Democrat, issued a statement this week publicly opposing the amendment that goes to voters Nov. 7. In the statement, Kaine said he believes "marriage is between one man and one woman" and that condition is clear under current state law.

"But I am concerned that the broad wording of the proposed constitutional amendment goes much further than that, threatening the constitutional rights of individuals to enter into private contracts, and also threatening the discretion of employers to extend certain benefits, such as health care coverage, to unmarried couples," he said. "For those reasons, I will vote against the marriage amendment in November, and I urge other Virginians to vote against it as well."

link

A Bad Amendment

Even if you oppose gay marriage, Virginia's ban would go too far.

Sunday, September 17, 2006; Page B06

SINCE 1998, 20 states have adopted constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. But not all of them have been drafted so expansively, and so carelessly, as the measure that will appear on Virginia's ballot in November, which would recognize no "union, partnership or other legal status to which is assigned the rights, benefits, obligations, qualities or effects of marriage." The amendment is muddle-headed and absurdly broad, duplicates what is already in state law and carries the germ of a thousand unintended consequences. Virginia voters should reject it.

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) opposes gay marriage, but he shares with its defenders the concern that the wording of Virginia's amendment could imperil the rights of individuals to enter into private contracts or employers to extend benefits such as health care coverage to unmarried couples. Plenty of the state's most prominent employers might face a more vexing recruiting environment if the amendment is approved.

more

It doesn't make him a hero, but at least let's put all the facts on the table.

Glad he isn't VP.

[madfloridian]

22. That's good news that he backtracked.

You are right, it doesn't make him a hero. Thanks for posting.

[VADem11]

23. Yes he did

I fundamentally disagree with Kaine on these issues but evaluating Kaine on these issues alone distort the full picture of what his term has been like. Besides, his role will be to raise money and elect Democrats. He's done a good job of electing Democrats in Virginia.

Read more here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/05/AR2008110501900.html?sid=ST2008110502731&s_pos=

[Bluebear]

26. He won't be raising money from me.

[hulklogan]

41. He didn't oppose the amendment because it would harm LGBT Americans

He opposed it because it might harm straight couples and business as well.

That is not true opposition.

[JohnnieGordon]

73. He opposed it only because it'd hurt unmarried heterosexual couples

"But I am concerned that the broad wording of the proposed constitutional amendment goes much further than that, threatening the constitutional rights of individuals to enter into private contracts, and also threatening the discretion of employers to extend certain benefits, such as health care coverage, to unmarried couples," he said. "For those reasons, I will vote against the marriage amendment"

He ain't a hero alright, nor is he within a trillion miles of being one. Unless you think opposing a flagrantly anti-gay amendment, only because it might hurt precious heterosexual couples, involves even the most microscopic speck of bravery.

[Politicalboi]

118. Damn it

Somebody has to protect marriage. Just think if Tommy Lee and Pamela couldn't get married. They respect marriage even though she didn't even know her last name till after they were married. Who would want to stop that love.

[Jamastiene]

169. Or Britney Spears' 55 hours marriage.

Heaven forbid anybody threaten the sanctity of that. :eyes:

[madfloridian]

345. Exactly

That is why.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. Obama realizes that winning red states is the key to his reelection

Kaine knows how to win there.

[Bluebear]

24. Yes, because Obama couldn't find a way to win this year.

:crazy:

[wyldwolf]

42. the difference was red states

[yardwork]

50. Too bad Obama couldn't win them. Wait.

At this rate - and this is not just here on DU - Obama is going to have a serious challenge from the left for 2012.

[wyldwolf]

53. lol. There is no one serious on the left to challenge him

[yardwork]

55. I guess that's what he's betting. That doesn't make him admirable. It makes him a pol.

Just another politician.

[wyldwolf]

59. It's a safe bet

[terisan]

64. I thought Clinton was much liberal on social issues. nt

[wyldwolf]

67. not much more, and a challenge from her (not probable) wouldn't be from the left

[terisan]

I don't think she would be inviting Rick Warren to speak at the ceremony.

The GLBT and Women's rights movement are probably going to have to seek a new home.

[wyldwolf]

71. probably not but then again she would have done something to hurt someone's feelings

[terisan]

68. I don't think she would be inviting Rick Warren to speak at the ceremony.

The GLBT and Women's rights movement are probably going to have to seek a new home.

[druidity33]

177. really?

As i understand it she's involved with a pretty shady religious group herself. The DC group itself is Right-leaning and a mostly Republican membership... how'd Hillary get in there? If not Warren, then some other dastardly devil, no doubt.

Can't remember, but it was a fascinating article... Harpers maybe? Mother Jones, i think.

:shrug:

[Creideiki]

267. Along with moderate/mainstream Christians, Jews, damned near everything

"Change you can believe in," is Obamese for, "The Democratic Party will become the Republican Party--go find your own party."

[yardwork]

75. I don't consider either Clinton to be progressive or "left."

This is not about the primaries. The Clintons and Obama are about the same on the issues - center right.

[Two Americas]

87. the difference was the public

The public rejected and repudiated Reaganomics and the religious right.

[wyldwolf]

94. and the ones in the red states that did that was significant enough.

[Two Americas]

101. no

Obviously, for Democrats to win that means that people who were previously voting Republican had to vote Democratic. Since rural - "red" - districts are predominant in the rural parts of the country, there was much shift there. However, the degree to which they did shift makes them just that much less "red," so basing policy on the idea that they are "red" is absurd.

The people moved toward us. How on earth does that justify us moving to where they used to be, just because they live in "red" districts?

If a "red" district votes Democratic, it no longer is a "red" district, and the people there have rejected the politics associated with a "red" district. We should not then embrace or pander to the very politics that the people themselves have just rejected.

Of course, perhaps with Kaine rather than Dean in charge the people in those red districts will go back to voting Republican, and then your demographics and colorful map will be restored to their former beauty, and we can go back to triangulating.

Why are you so stubbornly resistant to and dismissive of the idea that the public has rejected Reaganomics and the religious right and moved to the Left, especially right after a massive Democratic party win? Is that not what we have all been working toward?

[wyldwolf]

167. yes

Regardless of whether they moved left or we moved right, red staters voted Dem in significant enough numbers to move red states into the blue column. This is a fact, the numbers don't lie, and it's silly you're even arguing that point.

[kenfrequed]

285. Arguing?

I see his point and would like to go one step further with it.

Why ditch Dean for this guy that is for all practical intents a DINO?

Well of course we need to shift the Democratic party further to the right, which will result in losses. After all if you have a choice between a Republican and a Democrat that speaks like a Republican, why would you bother voting for the Democrat. (Truman-badly paraphrased)

It is a win-win for the DLC, if we lose they will blame us liberals, if they win they will take the credit. If the Repugs take back power they have someone to triangulate with, if the Democrats keep power they have ensured that they recieve a completely disproportionate influence over the party.

I suppose it is a lose-lose for progressives.

[Two Americas]

309. I didn't

I didn't argue that point.

[Jamastiene]

170. I wish I could K&R this post.

:kick:

[Freddie Stubbs]

192. He won running as a moderate and winning a few red states

[kenfrequed]

286. Feh

Why not just join the pundit choir and say that "America is a center right nation" while you are at it?

He ran on change. We had conservatives in office that claimed to be center-conservatives. Ergo the public did not want 'center-conservatives.' Change by its nature is not moderate or centrist or middle of the road.

Had he ran as a moderate he would have said, "Well we arent going to change healthcare too much, and I intend on keeping most things largely as they are with minor reforms, and I think we need to keep the tax structure mostly as it is"

But on healthcare, taxation, education, the environment, unions and workers, and struggling farmers Obama gave a different message. A message of hope and change. THAT is how he won. So I recommend you take that 'moderate' crap and ram it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

313. Funny that you should bring up health care:

Announcer: "On health care reform -- two extremes. On one end, government run health care, higher taxes.

On the other, insurance companies without rules, denying coverage. Barack Obama says both extremes are wrong.

His plan: Keep your employer-paid coverage. Keep your own doctor. Take on insurance companies to bring down costs. Cover pre-existing conditions, and preventive care.

Common sense for the change we need."

Obama: "I'm Barack Obama and I approved this message."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnk8minM3Qg&eurl=http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/10/ad_health.html

[kenfrequed]

327. Alright...

Which is why the insurance companies get to be in on the meetings where he investigates solutions. They are never going to back something that is going to cost them profits. Moreover any universal coverage plan that attempts to engage or cooperate with them is going to be folly as they are going to keep charging more and more. In this case they will charge the government for whatever portion the individuals cannot afford and they will be making tons of money and the program is going to become corporate welfare for insurance companies.

[Two Americas]

312. that is the story line, yes

That is the only analysis that supports moving to the right. But you have not, and I believe that you can not, support that claim.

[NWHarkness]

85. Focus on the presidential

is why the DNC was so messed up for so long. The DNC chair has responsibilities beyond helping the president pull in a couple states.

I am on my state committee, and I can tell you, there is a lot of concern about the state parties being hung out to dry, and this decision doesn't allay those fears.

[saracat]

144. Thank you, thank you. This is very true!

[saracat]

145. What exactly did we win if no one represents our rights?

[Freddie Stubbs]

193. We won a moderate Democratic President who shuns partisanship and extreme ideology

[saracat]

275. Human Rights is extreme ideology? And exactly how is currying favor with

extereme ideologists like Warren "shunning" such extremes? The problem is the issues of the GBTL Community and Rights for Women will be put on the back burner till the second term if then because once you pander to such folk you have to continue to pander. And continuuous concessions will be demended while none are given by the otgher side. This is obvious by how our House and Senate conducted itself after 2006.Yes, I am aware that we didn't have a super majority, but there is always an excuse and always another election.

Don't ask Don't Tell has already been shelved. Lets see what happens to FOCA. No doubt it too will be reduced to a "fringe issue" that can "wait". And I wouldn't hold my breathe about health care being available anytime soon either.

[donco6]

298. It's partisan to support the platform?

I mean, I thought that's what an exemplary Dem would do . . .

[donco6]

297. Hell, *I* know how to win red states, too.

Support gay marriage bans, oppose abortion, oppose unions . . . in short, just become a republican.

How much does that job pay, anway?

[JeffR]

25. I'll take a very rare opportunity to agree with wyldwolf on this one.

If Kaine has any organizational skills at all, better that he be employed to use those rather than be in a position where he has any influence on policy, in Virginia or anywhere else.

Frankly, I have no idea if he'll do a good job. He has a lot to live up to in light of his predecessor's achievements. But I don't see that his personal views, contemptible as some of them may be, have any bearing on whether or not he's effective. I'll keep my fingers crossed that he excels in this role, and I'll continue to mock what I consider his medieval views.

[Cha]

29. Kaine does have a high bar set

by his predecessor Gov Dean and I wish him well.

[madfloridian]

30. I really don't care who is chair. I care that he thinks women and gays unworhy

of making their own decisions.

I am sure he will do a good job. We already stopped donations, they won't need us anymore.

We just keep on accepting and accepting things. He advocates abstinence only, which our Democrats voted to continue with raised funding.

It's not that I care if he's chair, I really don't care anymore.

I care that he thinks women and gays are open to being controlled by those who are religious.

That should bother every one, even you and wyldwolf.

[JeffR]

39. If someone with his views is setting policy, of course I care,

a point I think I've already made. I wrote in Regina Thomas for Congress this fall, because I couldn't bring myself to vote for the Kainesque John Barrow again, this despite PE Obama's high-visibility support for Barrow. I don't believe people with these views belong in government, frankly, but what we're talking about here is not government or policy.

And I differ with you about him doing a good job. I'm not so sure that he will, but if he's ineffective, I don't see how it will be because of his antediluvian views.

[yardwork]

46. His job is to raise money - of course that will influence policy.

I'm in the business of raising money, and I see first-hand how the donors influence policy. Kaine will seek money and support from the people he knows, and their opinions will, in turn, influence Democratic Party policy.

[terisan]

61. Yes. The leadership of the Dem Party has made a conscious decision to move to the right.

Obama promised to extend Bush's faith-based giveaways and was initially counting on co-opting the Evangelical movement which was declining. U)nfortunately it seems to be re-energizing (with help from the new administration). In 2012 they do not intend to have to rely on liberals and progressives.

I think it is about money and power.

[AntiFascist]

66. Wow, if only we had known 'change' meant to the Right. n/t

[yardwork]

76. I agree. That is the simplest and clearest explanation for what is happening.

And all the nonsense about being everybody's president is just smoke and mirrors.

[LostinVA]

180. His membership in the UCC puzzles me

It is probably THE most liberal of the Christian denominations (UUs are technically not a Christian church, although many Unitarians are Christian), and his specific congregation was very welcoming and progressive. So how the hell did he go from that to this??? A hardcore Catholic and a RW, Dominionist Fundie???

[JeffR]

62. I won't quarrel with a fundraiser about fundraising.

Other than to say I hope it doesn't turn out that way.

[terisan]

63. Yes. The leadership of the Dem Party has made a conscious decision to move to the right.

Obama promised to extend Bush's faith-based giveaways and was initially counting on co-opting the Evangelical movement which was declining. U)nfortunately it seems to be re-energizing (with help from the new administration). In 2012 they do not intend to have to rely on liberals and progressives.

I think it is about money and power.

[bluedawg12]

79. There will be no liberuhls in 2012, we'll be RepubloCrats! Yay!

:bounce::bounce:

[Two Americas]

89. while the public moves to the Left

One would think by listening to the leadership and the conservatives among us here that it was the political Left that had been repudiated.

[terisan]

93. So true! n/t

[bluedawg12]

96. It's the New Southern Strategy. Only social rather than racial issues

uniting people.

And, a rather un-labor stance too.

[Two Americas]

127. Jeff....

I don't understand this "he isn't setting policy" idea. What does "policy" have to do with anything?

People are talking about Obama as though we were setting up one man rule - "once he starts governing" and "he will be setting the policy" and "he will be telling his appointees what to do" and "he is smarter than we are" and "he has a plan." None of that is compatible with the way politics works in a representative democracy.

If we were talking about putting together a baseball team, then competence and skill would be everything and who cares what their politics are.

But this is politics. What sort of politics are based on the idea that politics don't matter?

[madfloridian]

226. I guess I am just surprised...

to see you of all people not being a little upset that a anti-gay, anti-choice guy is chosen to head the DNC. It sends a message to the right that Obama is with them, but that we women and those who are gay must stand back and wait.

I would have thought you would see the significance. Your posts impress me with their honesty. I am surprised I guess.

The policy of our party is set merely by his appointment. It says it all. It is not whether he sets policy...he IS the policy.

[martymar64]

288. With all the people they're throwing under the bus . . .

I'm sure the Greens will happily let us ride with them. And I for one will happily jump on board. Women and LGBTs and working people will be welcome as well.
Can they say "one term administration"?

[TechBear_Seattle]

280. What kind of Democrats do you think he will be working to get elected?

My understanding is that the DNC Chair is instrumental in determining which Democrats receive the backing of the national party. That backing, and the financial support that comes with it, is instrumental in the primaries. And what kind of candidates will Kaine be working to elect? Those who believe in a woman's right to chose, who support equality and who are strongly pro-union?

I bet not.

With regards to his fundraising role, consider: From whom will he be soliciting money, from hard core lefties like me, or from hard core rightards like himself? You should know quite well that those who pay the band get to call the tunes, and with Kaine heading the party, it will not be womens groups, LGBT organizations and labor selecting the music.

In short: Picking Kaine guarantees that the next eight years will see the party lurch even farther to the right than it is now. Progressive issues first be sidelined as "unimportant" (we are seeing that already) and then decried as a threat to the nation. The Democratic Party in 2012 will look very much like the Republican Party of today, just as today's Democratic Party bears a striking resemblance to the Republican Party of Ronald Reagan. And what should progressives do then?

[dflprincess]

57. Obama's all into the symbolism and the message (or so we were told with Warren)

and the fact that he'd appoint someone who is a Republican in everything but name to run his party doesn't send a message most Democrats would want to hear.

It's a disgrace and just proof that the Democratic party doesn't stand for anything. Does Obama really think it will make his job easier when the base stays home or goes with third parties in 2010 and 2012?

[JeffR]

65. The Warren thing was utterly boneheaded.

This decision may well be boneheaded too, and will no doubt get debated here frequently. We'll know soon enough, I guess.

[flyarm]

107. DUPE .IT POSTED IN MULTIPLES. EOM..

[JeffR]

112. Nobody but me defines who I am as a "Democrat", thanks.

I'm a socialist who votes Democratic because otherwise there'd be no point in my voting at all. And I have no particular faith in electoral politics except to hope that those who will do the least damage to ordinary people are the people "democratically" invested with the levers of power. So spare me your sanctimony. I have no illusions, and I'm not really too interested in yours.

[dcsmart]

190. It all comes down to the 1st amendment

I am a socialist also, DSA, and i agree with you. What i cannot understand is why, if people trace the arguments that people have against gay marriage and abortion and stem cell research, it always has a religious foundation. Now, if these people are politicians and influence policy, where is separation of church and state. If these politicians are pressed for the reasoning behind their position, you find religion. And we have an amendment that says something about that.A secular government's policies should be based on secular reasoning.

[flyarm]

108. DUPE..

[flyarm]

109. what are you talking about..this man doesn't need to make policy..

he Just re-defined " who you are " as a democrat!!

Hope that Hopey changey shit makes you proud..how is that working for you..he is representing the values and fundementals of the party ..as the head of the DNC..it sounds more like GW that appointed him!

Many of us warned the dems here that this guy was no dem ..not any dem i relate to and you all gave this guy pass after pass after pass..as you try to do even now..

So enjoy this hopey changey bullshit!

There is more where this is coming from..count on that!

THINK FISA AND Nafta..THAT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING!

eom

[flyarm]

111. what are you talking about..this man doesn't need to make policy..

he Just re-defined " who you are " as a democrat!!

Hope that Hopey changey shit makes you proud..how is that working for you..he is representing the values and fundementals of the party ..as the head of the DNC..it sounds more like GW that appointed him!

Many of us warned the dems here that this guy was no dem ..not any dem i relate to and you all gave this guy pass after pass after pass..as you try to do even now..

So enjoy this hopey changey bullshit!

There is more where this is coming from..count on that!

THINK FISA AND Nafta..THAT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING!

eom

[w4rma]

227. I'm with you, JeffR. Kaine was a good choice. I live in VA and have been happy with him as governor.

He doesn't agree with me on everything, but noone does.

[katandmoon]

28. So the difference between him and a repug is -- ??

[LostinVA]

34. The Death Penalty -- that's it

[yardwork]

54. Which he hasn't stopped - he's let several executions go forward in VA.

Kaine doesn't allow his religious feelings to interfere with governance when that would mean stopping executions, but he does allow his religious feelings to influence state laws regarding gay rights, stem cell research, women's rights, etc.

[LostinVA]

186. Yup, that's about right

[LostinVA]

32. THANK YOU -- I'm tired of people saying he isn't anti-choice or anti-GLBT

I lived in VA when he ran, and watched all his debates. Of course I voted for him -- I certainly couldn't vote for that Nazi Kilgore.

This is NOT a good choice to ahve as head of the DNC. It shows what the Party Leadership thinks about women and GLBT, for sure.

[LostinVA]

35. The Chairman of the Party is anti choice, anti GLBT, anti stem cell, etc.

I am very glad I'm not a Dem and haven't been for a decade.

[Peregrine Took]

36. Bring back that great democrat, Howard Dean. n/t

[yardwork]

56. Dean - after all he's done for the party - is dismissed.

[LostinVA]

181. I am, frankly, shocked by the treatment of Dean

Not given a HEALTH position in the Cabinet, and now this? Not just his dismissal, but the whole chaning of the POV. Dr. Dean helped hand the election to PE Obama, and now this. The dismissal of Richardson strikes me the same way.

[MasonJar]

37. And just why did Obama get rid of Mr 50 State and replace him with Kaine?

Because Kaine was an early supporter and Dean remained neutral (as the DNC chairman should)? This stinks!!!!!!!! Good-bye to all the dem gains. What is Obama thinking?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ruggerson]

47. It's only a two minute prayer

oh wait. It's the guy running the nuts and bolts of our party.

My bad.

[yardwork]

48. He's only going to sing one song. Oh wait.

[ProgressIn2008]

60. LOL, I know, my first thought: "So what's the new excuse of the week?" nt

[bluedawg12]

77. I'm a Log Cabin RepubloCrat now! Ole~!

[Two Americas]

125. he is only going to run one political party

What's the big deal?

[bluedawg12]

74. And gay's, being 3/5 human, can still contract! YIPPIEEE! (maybe)

If they're lucky, maybe, in Va. someday, gays could have all, the full rights guaranteed to a gerbil.

That's it! It's full and equal POA or nothing from now on.

We'll hold off visitation rights until say, 2055. No need to be pushy.

[yardwork]

78. We have fewer rights than chickens in California.

[bluedawg12]

80. They're debating chickens & bees in Cleveland! Ole!~

December 1, 2008
Second public meeting to discuss chickens and bees within City limits


Really.

[yardwork]

81. You can't make this up. No wonder half of DU thinks we're whining about nothing.

They have no idea how bad things are because no rational person would do the things the homophobes are doing.

[bluedawg12]

84. Yes! But being only 3/5ths human and unable to direct a POA or "contract "my estate to heirs

they should be happy to know, it counts only as a 3/5 whine!

:sarcasm:

Somewhere in hell, Falwell is laughing.

[madfloridian]

86. I am so sorry these choices are being made.

Yes, I would imagine Falwell is laughing in his grave about how well they succeeded in screwing Democrats into right wing positions.

I understand your bitter sarcasm and I don't blame you.

There is no reason for this to happen. :hug:

[bluedawg12]

90. This is an extremely conservative choice- operative word: choice

I guess the party sees it's future, now that it actually won, as being something other than what it once was.

Thank you for the kind words, for and from my GLBTQ brothers and sisters, as well.

:grouphug:

[Bluebear]

99. Thank you, madfloridian

:hug:

[yardwork]

102. You are one of my favorite DUers, madfloridian. I love your posts and threads!

Thank you for your kind words.

[madfloridian]

114. Well, this is getting to be a sad situation.

Too many here instead of realizing that if one or two groups are diminished, others will soon follow.

There are some very smart-alecky people here who deliberately try to hurt people.

[Jamastiene]

171. That is exactly what I have been trying to point out.

Once the GLBT community is permanently ostracized and shut up, the next group will be permanently ostracized and shut up until no one will be left to speak up. Thank you. :applause:

[LostinVA]

183. Thank you so much

From one Deaniac to another -- your kind words are much appreciated.

:pals:

[martymar64]

289. One silver lining - it leaves Dean open to run in '12

He'll automatically have my vote.

[bluedawg12]

88. Virginia Bill of Rights that denies to same-sex and unmarried couples any legal status ...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Virginia_Bill_of_Rights_to_deny_legal_status_to_same-sex_and_unmarried_relationships

November 17, 2006

Virginia, United States – A ballot referendum to amend the Virginia Bill of Rights that denies to same-sex and unmarried couples any legal status that approximates that granted to married couples was approved by state voters during the U.S. midterm election by a 57% to 43% margin.


Judge Warren argues that one of the greatest dangers of this amendment is that “no body knows what the sentence means”. The Judge’s position is reinforced by the views of an eminent Professor of Law within Virginia, who is a recognized expert on the social issues surrounding marriage. The professor described the amendment as “murky”.

Judge Warren argues that this modification affectively transfers broad power to the 7-member Supreme Court to interpret how this amendment affects the existing laws, benefits and rights that unwed partners currently enjoy. This would be in contrast to instead creating public policies, which could be adjusted through democratic processes as social understandings of the underlying issues evolve.

....

Ole~!

[LostinVA]

182. Gays can't contract in VA

It's one of THE main reasons I changed jobs and moved to NJ when Haruka and I became serious.

[dpbrown]

92. Welcome back to irrelevance, Democrats!!!

Keep picking Republican-lite boneheads and dismantle Gov. Dean's 50-state strategy, and you're looking at a loooooooooooooong time in the wilderness.

This guy sounds like a creep.

[DCBob]

95. Kaine represents VA a very red state that is gradually turning blue.

And there many other states similar to VA. He understands that transition. That is why Kaine is a great choice.

[bluedawg12]

97. Yup. I just said, the New Southern strategy. Unite over wedge issues

not race.

[madfloridian]

98. Yes, my first sentence was that being from VA he had to believe that way.

That is the very basis of our party now. Instead of standing up for equal rights for women and gays, we just give in to the local views instead of making a concerted effort to change them.

He is chair now. He will do well. The corporate Dems won't be holding money back from him as they did for the former chair. He is more acceptable to the insiders, and that seems to matter more than being appreciative of those who worked their butts off.

The difference? Hubby and I are saving a couple of hundred a month now...it's nice. They don't need it anyway.

[bluedawg12]

100. My thought too, the party ought to stand for somethings consistently

especially when they are on the ascendancy.

[autorank]

115. Respectfully disagree

DCBob, I disagree with that. It's certainly the story that the Virginia party tells. In
reality, Virginia has been ready to go blue in a big way but the party wouldn't fill the bill with
a real Democrats. The 2008 primary had nearly 3 times more voters than the 2004 primary, also hotly
contested. The perception of Obama was that he was a liberal and that's why people came out.
The Democratic Party had no idea they were even there and little idea of what to do with them now.

I believe that Kaine does not share these views and will easily transition to DNC and be able to
work with various constituencies. He talked this talk to get the money and the institutional support
from the Virginia party and funders. While the people of this state are aware and progressive, the
representatives are not. for example, the leader of the Virginia Senate Democratic caucus sponsored
and helped pass a bill to protect the "Pay Day" loan industry. Not much of a ruckus in the party,
he's still around.

The good things about Kaine are: The state education system is very good K-12 and the university
system is first rate. The funding is generous and expanding. Virginia's Fairfax County is the
birthplace, so to speak, of the internet and is a exceptional high tech center. The state promotes
this and does special initiatives like nano technology programs.

Kaine's predecessor, Mark Warner, vetoed an anti-gay bill even thought he knew it would be over
ruled by the Republican legislature. He took NO HIT to his popularity, which was considerable.

The party here has been putting out this gradualist b.s. so long I think that even they believe it.

When thinking of Virginia, remember that in 1989, we elected then nation's first black governor,
a smart, outspoken at times, Democrat who didn't mind mixing it up. That's when the state was
ready to turn but the timid party faction wouldn't act.

Kaine's election was a revolt of some of the middle and Southern parts of the state to the extremist
religious fascism represented by the Republican ticket that year, hand picked by Falwell and
Robertson. They were really ugly. Even the paleo's had a problem with ticket. The vote in
populous and well off Northern Virginia shifted from 51-49% Kerry over Bush in 2004 to 60-65%
Kaine over the Republican, Kilgore. It was a real ass kicking. The rest of the state was about
50-50%. Kilgore was so far right, there was even a moderate Republican who ran against him to
siphon off votes and make sure he lost (and that candidate from a smaller city was pro gay rights!).
But in that campaign, the party had very solid evidence that the Republican A.G. (who got money
from the Conservative Citizens Council and was exposed for doing so) won with some huge election
"irregularities." For example, the Democratic A.G. candidate, not a bad guy, ran behind Kaine by
15-20% in heavily black areas and liberal northern Virginia. The party knew and did NOTHING.
That's why those voters who came out in the 2008 primary and general, the frustrated progressives,
stayed home in previous elections. They want a fighting party, not a bunch of people who make up
excuses for not doing the right thing.

[bluedawg12]

123. Thanks, that explains Kaine and Va. but why was he picked for party chair?

Can it be that they too don't want a fightin' Dem?

[autorank]

138. To me that's the best explanation

Kaine isn't going to roll through Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama and deliver the old
South to the party. They know that. He is NOT a good old boy and you wouldn't think he was from
the South if you just spoke to him, ever;)

When he was up for running mate, he got off some great lines against Rove and the Republicans so he
may surprise us now and then.

He's chosen more as a very high level manager and consolidator, someone who can nail down whatever
they think the party is after this election. Virginia is typically ranked as the best managed state
and that's the deal here for Democrats: "it's very well run." He does like to win though, so there
may be some surprises. But he has to answer this question. Where did all those new Virginia voters
come from in the 2008 election, the primaries in particular?

I had 15 minutes of minor Democratic "fame" right after the 2005 election so I wrote the outgoing
governor a letter urging him to return the right to vote for 300,000 disenfranchised black males who
lost it due to racist inspired legislation that takes the votes from ex felons. Got a letter back
from Kaine in behalf of Warner saying how they'd done better than anyone in returning ex felon voting
rights (yeah, 5% change in four years) and bla bla. The response was morally wrong (without any
doubt), politically weak, and a betrayal of the black voters who are the difference between victory
and defeat. So ya know ... the Republican alternative here is simply unthinkable. If it's Dean
like inspiration and random eruptions of truth telling, no way. If it's something well organized
and clean, then that's it.

[LostinVA]

196. Not, Virginia isn't a very red state

AREAS are VERY red, just like areas of any state. VA actually has very, very blue areas: the Charlottesville corridor, Richmond City, NOVA, many parts of the east around VA City/Hampton Roads/etc.

Like another poster has said, all VA has needed are viable Dems. As soon as they get them, they vote for them.

It's like NC: some areas are crazy red, many areas are purple, and some areas have been true blue for decades.

[dpbrown]

278. Not if he can help it, apparently

The Democrats won because they embraced a 50-state strategy and real populist rhetoric.

The Democrats won't win if they embrace positions that demean women, homo-Americans, or science.

[martymar64]

290. The US is not Virginia, and thank Yog-Sothoth for that.

A truer representative of our Party as head of the DNC would come from WA or CA or VT, to use a few examples. We don't need a red state replubicrat to run our national party apparatus, we need somebody that adheres more to what democrats are on a national basis, not some johnny -come -lately to the party, like Virginia.

[patrice]

103. The party calculates a Left-ward drift in the general populace and opts for the brakes.

Because that's "real world" pragmatics. So, the party, any politicla party, is NOT about implementing the will of the People. It's about reacting to, complementing, that "other" political party.

God, I'm tired of this!!!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

105. And the Democratic Party is more than just a party about social issues.

BFD.

[Mojambo]

106. It's pretty easy to see which way the winds are blowing with this party.

The labor part is the one that really pisses me off.

[yardwork]

116. We're seeing a capitulation to the right on every issue - across the board.

That's why it's so important for us to band together. It's not just this issue or that issue - it's the entire movement of the party.

[bluedawg12]

119. All political issues are social issues.

Otherwise, why would rich care about the poor, those with health insurance care about those don't have it, the educated care about those that haven't been, those with jobs care about the jobless, those with homes care about the homeless and on down the line.

Even war and peace have societal ramifications.

The heart of the Democratic party seemed to me, that the very people that didn't have a need cared about those that did and vice versa.

That's what I see ending.

I got mine you got yours, adios.

This should be interesting because outside of the percentage- wise few gays, there are still yet other societal issues impacting people, who benefited from that broad coalition of unlike people.

The repugs already have a coalition of "like" people.

[KakistocracyHater]

110. right-to-work-law=child labor

His words remind me of the early 1900s, when children were said to "build character" by working, work would "instill morals" in kids. He isn't a Dem, he just jumped onto the party that looked like a winner, since he's against MOST everything that defines the Left. Equality, justice, women's rights, fair wages-what's next, is he also for 'household suffrage' & those "selfish women" ought to sit down & not vote anymore? Since that seems to be the Right's next big thing, along with getting rid of public education think of the economy:sarcasm: & putting those kids back to work, after all they ought to pitch in & help out-right?

[bluedawg12]

120. Obviously this was handled poorly.

Understandable that he is from a red State and wanted the Gov. chair.

This is now inserting him onto the top of party politics and last I looked it wasn't: Vote Democractic, as goes Virginia, so goes the party!

[madrchsod]

121. yuck...a right wing democrat....

2010 should be really interesting with mr kaine`s republican right wing beliefs.

[rockymountaindem]

122. The thing that people seem to overlook here: Kaine will help pick our candidates

nationwide now. As we all know from several recent races, who the party apparatus supports has a major impact on who wins a primary battle. From now on, Kaine, with all these positions foremost in his mind, will help select who actually gets to run as a Democrat in House and Senate races all over the country. So while he may not set policy, he will have a key role in selecting those who do.

Is that what we want?

[Hippo_Tron]

124. Kaine is going to be a figurehead part-time DNC Chair

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/01/obama-kaine.html

His job will be to meet with donors and get convince them to open their wallets and that's about it. David Axelrod will be determining the party's strategy. And I think we all know that David Axelrod knows a few things about winning elections.

[Fearless]

126. Now isn't Obama the defacto head of the party as he is the President?

You know, the one who technically sets policy?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

129. Yes, it is totally Obama's party now.

.

[Fearless]

130. Then how is Kaine a factor other than for the aforementioned red state fundraising?

[madfloridian]

134. It shows a mindset.

A mindset in the party that says women and gays are expendable....until the next time they are needed.

[Fearless]

136. Or it shows a strategy to gouge out the remnants of the Rethug party.

A kick em while their down mentality that politics is well known for.

[madfloridian]

137. You'll have to explain that one to me.

I don't know how you think it will hurt the Republicans to cater to them.

[Fearless]

140. It hurts rethugs to pull them away from their party...

Kaine will cater to some of the fundies who are disillusioned by their current leadership. They will see a man like Kaine and some will grit their teeth and move across the aisle, the same as the "Reagan democrats" did. Besides, Kaine will be a figurehead chairman, as when the party is in office, policy is set by the seated president. Kaine, IMHO, will be just another pawn in Obama's belief that this nation should come together and find common ground. Like it or not, that is the ideology we elected. Personally, if it gets the job done, I'll go along with it. Historically, consensus tends to lead to change.

[madfloridian]

235. Who will stand up for the Democrats?

?

[Fearless]

322. We ARE the Democrats.

We do. I have not said that we will forget our positions. I said that we will accept that the opposing points of view exist. We won't shun them. We will drive to find ways to bring them over to our side. This cannot be done by forgetting that there are reasons why we are split ideologically.

[Two Americas]

270. turn off the TV

I don't mean this as an insult, but I can't imagine where you are getting your ideas if it is not from the MSM.

This is pure fantasy - "Kaine will cater to some of the fundies who are disillusioned by their current leadership. They will see a man like Kaine and some will grit their teeth and move across the aisle."

There is no "them" who are "disillusioned with their current leadership" and I can't begin to imagine anyone "gritting their teeth and moving across the aisle." What does this moving across the aisle even mean? It is nonsense. How would a politician move people to the left by catering to their right wing ideas? That is nonsense, as well.

The MSM turns politics into some sort of game for people to passively observe, as though it were an athletic contest between two teams. You have thoroughly internalized that view of politics, and that is creating a it of confusion in your thinking. Turn it off is my advice. You bare talking about politics as though you were analyzing the football playoffs

[Fearless]

323. Football playoffs?

KO was a sportscaster. Should he shut up?

Regardless, for whatever reason I will play your game... I don't watch the MSM. I don't care about their punditry. I speak from personal experience and nothing else. I don't care if you accept that or believe what I do. It just doesn't matter to me.

[Two Americas]

131. what does that mean?

What does "set policy" mean?

[Fearless]

132. Does the sitting president not historically decide the direction that the party is going in?

Reagan for example.

[Two Americas]

133. Reagan

Reagan packed the party at all levels with extreme right wingers and then turned them loose. He didn't "set policy," he chose people (he probably did not even do that.)

What specifically would a president do to "set policy?"

[Fearless]

139. Oh for heaven's sake...

The president assumes all duties of the national chair when they become president. The NC becomes a fund raising tool for them. It's basic political philosophy. You cannot have two figureheads of the party, regardless of who is in charge. You have to have clear leadership. Reagan did pack the party with fundies... his fundies... and it was HIS job to do the packing with people of HIS ideology to further HIS ideology. Do you remember William Brock, Richard Richards or Frank Fahrenkopf Jr? They were the RNC chairs during Reagan.

[Two Americas]

147. right

So then would be not be justified in thinking that Obama may just be "packing with people of HIS ideology to further HIS ideology?" People who are defending various choices Obama has made are saying that their ideology doesn't matter and we should not pay any attention to that.

[Fearless]

156. Because he has also taken people like...

Hillary Clinton, Bill Richardson (now defunct), William White, or Vilsak.

Of course, he could just be creating a cabinet which has opposing opinions than him as a counterpoint to his own beliefs. A notion that he has alluded to.

My point is that we can't all jump of the pier before he actually does something in office.

[madfloridian]

135. Yes, Obama just decided with his choices

which way we are going as a party.

[Fearless]

141. Yes, as he said countless times before the election...

We are one nation and we should be united. It's funny to me that sometimes we forget that this means we will be sharing this nation with the fundies too instead of trying to alienate them.

[Bluebear]

142. The fundies want to alienate me. In fact, many would rather see me dead.

It does say in the Bible that I am an abomination, after all. How do you propose I "unite" with them?

[Fearless]

143. And alienate me as well.

I'm sure they'd have no greater pleasure than getting rid of the entire GLBTQ population. But look at the situation in a different light...

We want to stop this hate right? Obviously. And clearly they are not going to stop by themselves right? Also obviously, IMHO. So we have to do something to stop the hate (IMHO). The question is: Do we want to kill them all? An eye for an eye. Or do we want to convince them to see the light? An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.

I firmly believe that we have to convince them to see the light. That said, what justifies their hate for us more than our equal hate for them in return? IMHO, nothing. Hate begets hate. They don't want to like us, so if we hate them, they have plenty of motivation to continue hating us in return. It is cyclical.

We must gain their respect and in time I think we will. Only with their support will we gain equal rights. (Unless you are willing to wait for enough of them to die off, which barring sharp ideological changes could take 40 years or so.) As I've said before, shun the action not the person. A shunned fundie will turn deaf ears to us and further alienate our minority from our deserved equality.

As for how we unite with them: I could offer a few suggestions, but I warn you they are not comfortable or easy. At any rate, what we must do is prove ourselves respectable members of society to these people through our actions and through our love for them. Hate will turn them against us. Love will eventually turn them to us ideologically. Make love not hate.

[Two Americas]

149. WTF?

We need to "prove ourselves to be respectable members of society?"

"We must gain their respect?"

Whew.

[Fearless]

152. A misquote by omission...

You see as you write it: "'prove ourselves to be respectable members of society?'" It seems like I'm being a bigot. However if you take the whole statement... "what we must do is prove ourselves respectable members of society to these people through our actions and through our love for them" You will see that what I said means something vastly different.

And, likewise, in the context of the paragraph (in my post above), it means that we must let go our hate for them and thusly prove ourselves respectable to them, which in turn is the only means I see to gain their approval, which is what I believe we want (see the above post for an explanation).

And yes, following with my belief that we have to convert them to accepting us (versus killing them which is the only other option in which we will get our equality unquestionably) "we must gain their respect". Respect as I said is the only way I see that we can gain their acceptance which is what we need to have the numbers we need to gain equality in law and in practice.


Context matters.

[Two Americas]

155. that doesn't change anything

Adding that additional context doesn't change anything. It does not say "something vastly different" by adding the rest of the sentence. I responded to the entire context, and in any case it is right there visible to all so you can hardly accuse me of trying to deceive anyone.

I think that those who were wrong, those who spread hatred, and who destroyed the country are the ones you should be lecturing. The American people have lost respect for the leaders of the religious right and the proponents of Reaganomics, and have thrown them out of power. It is they who need to prove themselves to be respectable to the American people, and who need to earn respect from the people, not us.

We already "have the numbers." What we do not have is courage.

I am not worried about winning over "the fundies." That has largely been accomplished. I worry about winning over you, and other Democrats who want to squander this mandate, and ignore the voice of the people, while breathing new life into the religious right and urging compromise and pandering.

[Fearless]

158. If you think we have the numbers but not the will to persue OUR OWN RIGHTS

Then I have nothing further to say to you. That's straight up bullshit, no pun intended.

Otherwise, the "fundies" in this case is ANYONE who believes that GLBTQ people shouldn't have rights, IMHO. Further, we cannot lecture them. They will not listen. I've been trying to say this. It won't work. We must end the cycle of hate. We must not give them the ability to turn a deaf ear to us.

You speak of the "American People" as if they are a logical and tangible quantity. They are not. Americans make up a variety of opinions. Opposition to Reagonomics is NOT a guarentee of support for GLBTQ rights. To state that is to ignore the fact that American much more complex than that. Likewise, there are tens of millions (if not over a hundred million) people who STILL believe Reagan had it right. Why? Because they believe what they are told to believe by the people that they respect while simultaneously turning a deaf ear to us because we've hated them in return.

"Mandates" and the Bushism "political capital I intend to spend" are utter foolishnesses. There is a mandate for change. If that change does not go well immediately, which it won't because the economy will not get better overnight, then there will be millions of Rethugs looking back to the good ol' days and finding in their political juggernaut the answers to their problems. Those answers will be that WE caused the problem. That WE were the reason things aren't better. Make sense? Not a chance, but they will believe it because they respect their ministers and pundits who have shoved this bile down their throats since infancy.

The voice of the American people is still quite a bit redder than we wish to believe. They are still anti-abortion, still pro-death penalty, still pro-gun, and anti-GLBTQ. Don't believe me? Then tell me why the American people haven't elected people who will affect change?

[Bluebear]

159. 'Then tell me why the American people haven't elected people who will affect change?'

Obama RAN on change.

[Fearless]

161. If the change that America wanted was the change that the GLBTQ community wanted...

Then it would have unequivocally elected Dennis Kucinich. As it is, the American people as a whole do not want GLBTQ rights yet and he wasn't even a contender down the stretch. We do not have the numbers yet. We have the momentum, but it will take a bit of time still. America like any big conglomerate moves slowly and fears change. (I'd point to the Catholic Church as the best example of that.)

[Two Americas]

310. more ridiculous claims

The Kucinich candidacy was not a referendum on GLBTQ rights.

"America" does not "fear change." The people just overwhelmingly elected a man who ran a campaign on the very theme of "change."

How are the American people "like any big conglomerate?" That makes no sense. And how on earth is the "Catholic Church the best example of that?" America is like a big conglomerate is like the Catholic Church, so therefore we should not expect any change?

We do not have the numbers yet? If this isn't "the numbers" and if we don't "have them," we never will.

We don't have the courage yet.

[Two Americas]

164. that is the voice of fear and ignorance

You are speaking from fear and ignorance, and that is the root cause of hatred and bigotry, no matter how "reasonable" and "nice" you try to make it sound.

I have toured and spoken all over the country in red areas. I have spoken in hundreds of "fundy" churches. I never get a "deaf ear." I have never hated the people I speak to. But I speak the truth, I don't play games or back down or cave in.

You have a very distorted view of the people.

You are counseling fear; fear of backlash, fear of the people. You are telling us not to take strong stands, not to speak out. You claim that telling the truth will spread hatred, and that taking a stand will make things worse. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We have too many among us intimidated and battered, unwilling to stand up and speak out, fearing their own shadows. This has real consequences to real human beings, and right now we are watching GLBTQ folks being cut out of the herd, marginalized and isolated and thrown to the wolves, all to cave in to fears of a backlash from the dreaded religious right.

The reason why the people are so vulnerable to the right wing propaganda is because they never hear anything else, and the reason for that is because of the cowardice and complacency of too many "liberals" and "progressives."

People haven't elected "people who will affect change" because they have been given no such option. They have been given no such option because the conservatives among us in the Democratic party are continually sabotaging the party and moving it to the right.

[Fearless]

165. To speak of fear is not to speak in fear.

I do not equate the dialog you have with fundies to be hate. I call shunning them a foolish idea, which I also understand you don't do.

As if we are to demand rights and expect them to be dropped on our doorstep even if they should be (which they should). It takes work and it takes dialog. If I've been unclear of this, it is solely because I'm tired of writing the same thing over and over again to no fault of yours or anyone's.

The reason why people hate cannot be because we are complacent. That is cyclical logic and has no beginning and no end. (Hate exists because we haven't been fighting hate enough.) It had to begin somewhere and for some reason, otherwise it wouldn't exist in the first place. You say hate for us exists and that we should combat it (and I agree) but you don't see WHY it exists. Only once we understand why it exists can we truly defeat it. Sure we will make inroads. But I don't have a lifetime to gain rights. While we're young please, if you will. We must target all aspects of the problem and come at it from all possible directions. Part of their hate is based in religious dogma which teaches them to fear "strange" and "different" things in an attempt to gain power over them for their own purposes. Without understanding that religion plays a large part we cannot hope to end this problem of hate quickly (or perhaps at all). It's taking a sword to a gunfight.

People had an option for real change on the GLBTQ front... Dennis Kucinich supported full equality. America clearly didn't want him. This isn't about party sabotaging. Everyone was free to vote for him. We were all free to campaign for him. We could have all donated to him. We could have all elected him despite what the Democratic Party may have wanted. Actually, since the party exists solely to continue to exist, it would have embraced him if the country wanted to go that route. Clearly it didn't, and therefore it shunned him, yes, so that they could survive. The party exists to exist.

The real consequence is to real human beings with real lives and real feelings. If we don't get to the root of why hate exists, preachers will continue to reinforce their hate messages regardless of how many times you or I or anyone talks to them.

[Two Americas]

273. turn off the damned TV

This is like debating with Lou Dobbs or Anderson Cooper or Wolf Blitzer.

Kucinich losing does not mean that the political Left was rejected. That is an MSM theme.

There is not some "cycle of hate" that requires us to be moderate. That is an MSM theme.

The religious right does not teach people to hate, the leaders gain power by appealing to people's prejudices and fears.

Who is "demanding rights and expecting them to be dropped on our doorstep?"

[Fearless]

318. I said we're not demanded our rights and expecting them to be dropped off on our doorsteps...

Even though in a just world we should be able to do that. You aren't reading clearly. Do me a favor, and before you comment again on anything I write, go back and read the whole gambit aloud. What I speak of is GLBTQ theory, more generally, of civil rights theory. This is academia not media-based analysis. If what you're saying is that I should dumb it down and simplify, so be it. And on Kucinich again, you are not listening or else reading everything. I said that WE failed to elect Kucinich because we did not donate to him, we did not rally for him, we did not fight for him. We folded. And clearly, by the results, the message that America as a whole wanted, conspiracy theories aside, is the Obama one and not the far more leftist Kucinich one. That's my opinion. Everything I've said is my opinion based on my observations. I haven't told you to believe me. I haven't even asked you to do so. The fact is that you've proven again and again by your responses that you just don't understand what I'm saying and I can't do anything about that.

[Two Americas]

324. I guess I am not alone

You have now told every person on this thread who has responded to you that they don't understand you.





.

[Fearless]

325. Now you're exaggerating. I believe it was the same two or three people chasing me between threads.

:+

[Maven]

203. No it doesn't.

The "context" changes nothing about your meaning.

[Fearless]

316. Solely because you don't, won't, or cannot understand what I'm saying.

[Bluebear]

151. 'what we must do is prove ourselves respectable members of society' - WOW

[Fearless]

153. See... taken out of context... anything can sound bigoted.

See my post just above for clarification.



Edit: It's post #152.

[Jamastiene]

200. Earth to nothingtoofear.

You are living in a fantasy world. The reality is that the types of people Obama is installing are the same people who would KILL US. You need to wake up from the dream world you are living in.

[Fearless]

314. Have a nice night.

I'm sure that if you actually read one thing I've said you'd understand. Scanning is not going to cut it.

[Maven]

202. You are delusional and you seem to be suffering from gay Stockholm Syndrome.

Seriously, there is some major self-hatred in that post.

[Fearless]

315. Clearly you don't understand me.

[saracat]

146. But alienating women and the GBTL community is just fine?

Fundies count for more?

[Fearless]

150. That's not going to happen.

Fundies don't count for more, they are more likely to defect. Obama is a politician who is trying to sure up power for his party. Sure ideology is nice, but historically it is constantly sacrificed for the party. Make no bones about it, I disagree with what Obama is saying if what he is saying is screw the GLBTQ community. However, if what he is doing by bringing this nation closer together and ending the cycle of hate between the parties will dull the hate for the GLBTQ community, then I have to be for it. Obama has mentioned that he will support equal rights for gays and lesbians (to the best of my knowledge not further) in his speeches. I believe him. If you don't because of his pick of Warren, that's fine too. But, I'm not going to argue about it. We are each free to believe what we want.

Regarding Warren's past comments about women, I also fundamentally disagree with his assessment. Women like GLBTQ people deserve equality. Period. But likewise, I see Obama trying to balance a nation of a different view points together. It's politicking. Honestly, at the end of the day, I'd be happy to have a president that openly and vehemently opposes GLBTQ and women's rights (which he hasn't) and then quietly passes legislation that favors them. In principle, that's a horrible statement. In practice, I'd take equality any way I can get it.

[saracat]

279. I gather you are neither gay or female? Neverthe less, if viewpoints like this

had prevailed we would still be part of England because we would have been willing to compromise with the George 111!

[Fearless]

317. There's a saying about those who assume.

I'm just saying. It's best not to.

Further, your allusion with English colonialism is laughable.

[Two Americas]

148. what??

The public just overwhelmingly rejected and repudiated Reaganomics and the religious right. That is what we have all been working for over the last two decades.

Now you say that we shouldn't "forget that this means we will be sharing this nation with the fundies too??"

This is all getting very strange.

[Fearless]

154. So you're telling me that if the economic crisis ened tomorrow...

Or next year... or in ten... that the fundies wouldn't try to claim that we were at fault some how. Clearly something about Barney Frank, Pelosi, and Reed's "mismanagement" (not my words) will be flung across the aisle. As I've said about the GLBTQ equality issue, we have to break the cycle of hate. We have to accept them into our folds. What does that mean? That they keep their beliefs? Certainly not. They will eventually see our point of view, but first we have to invite them in. If we continue to hate them we continue to fuel their fire of hate for us. It is cyclical. Hate begets hate.

[Two Americas]

157. there is not any "cycle"

The hatred is coming from one direction. Responding to it and defending ourselves is not advancing a "cycle of hate."

If "the fundies" are going to try to claim that we were at fault some how, no matter what, that is all the more reason not to pander to them.

You say this is about love. I think it is about fear. "Love them so they don't hurt us." That sounds like a battered spouse talking.

[Fearless]

160. Do you not hate those who don't want you to have equality?

Look around this board and others and you will see the hate that we have for conservative America. Hate. With a capital "H".

The biggest fallacy in the logic previously presented as to why they hate us is that so many people believe that they hate us for no reason. That's circular logic, that they hate to continue to hate. Actually, hate must begin somewhere and it must have something to keep it going. No doubt the origin of hate of GLBTQ people is in the fear of what is different. They fear us because we're different. Maybe they fear that we will make them different. I've heard it before... "turn them gay". Fear leads to hate. And we give them no reason to stop hating us. In fact, we inadvertently (I'm positive it's inadvertently) fuel their fire. We hate them. It may not CAUSE their hate for us, but it doesn't END it either. Maybe you don't hate them. I don't hate them personally. I pity their lack of knowledge, which is not inherently evil, just unfortunate and misinformed. I hear them bandy about words like sin and unnatural and I see it more and more that they don't know what it's like to be gay (or otherwise non-heterosexual). Instead of hating them, we must help them learn the truth. We must gain their respect. This is done by ending the they hate us we hate them business. They're clearly not going to stop hating us of their own volition. So, we must stop hating them. It disarms them of their strongest weapon. Without our hate for them, they cannot as easily impress upon their children hate for us because all they will see coming from us is love. It will still happen, but at a decreased rate, and that over time will help us gain equality. Of course, we must do a lot more than just that. But every bit helps. And every person is needed to do their part.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm heading off to bed. (It's almost 5am). Cheers! NTF.

[Two Americas]

162. listen...

I went into a group or 300 Warren supporters on Christmas Eve and spoke about bigotry and stood up strongly for equal rights for GLBTQ people. There wasn't any "cycle of hate" and I got a better response from that audience then I do from many here.

I have toured and spoken strongly for left wing politics for years in rural areas and small churches all over the country, to hundreds and hundreds of audiences. I have never had a problem gaining respect, and I have never backed down or compromised.

You are the one talking fear - I suspect you are watching too much TV and basing your ideas on that - and spreading fear, and that is what leads to hatred.

[Fearless]

163. What you describe...

Is just what I'm saying. By going up there and just talking to them is that respect gaining exercise. It's about being reasonable and having constructive conversations not destructive ones. But it doesn't mean that they will go home tonight converted to our cause. It's not that easy. If it were, we would've won a long time ago.

We must continue to have that conversation in our homes and with our families and loved ones. We must keep civilized dialog going. They will come around because the fear of us will disappear. The fear I talk about is real and it is the same one that plagued and continues to plague Black people, fear of that "savage negro". The same fear leads to xenophobia. The same fear leads to unwillingness to allow women to vote, a fear that (in this case) they are unintelligent or impulsive.

But the good news is that fear is conquered with exposure to what frightens you. Clearly you do that. You help people see that GLBTQ people are not to be feared. Increasingly we can remove destructive religious dogma from the American mindset. And together, united, we can be equal. All of us. That's what equal means after all. All of us will be equal together.

[LostinVA]

175. "Do you not hate those who don't want you to have equality?"

DOWN THE FUCKING RABBIT HOLE, ALICE!!!!!!!!!!

[Fearless]

319. Clearly we have lost civil discourse.

Have a good night.

:hi:

[QC]

178. Very true. It is shameful how fundamentalist Christians have been silenced in this country,

and denied a place at the table!

:silly:

[LostinVA]

184. And not given any political power or Presidential access

[QC]

201. It's an outrage, I tells ya! An outrage! n/t

[Fearless]

321. I think you should reread my statement.

"Trying" is the operative word.

[donco6]

299. Oh, by all means, let's not alienate the fundamentalists.

Brother. :eyes:

[Fearless]

320. An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.

[donco6]

331. If I were interested in an eye, that would be appropriate.

I have no interest in retaliating against fundamentalists. I have every interest in preventing them from extending their inappropriate influence over government.

[Fearless]

332. Exactly,

[Runcible Spoon]

128. sounds like a real piece of shit

fucking fantastic :sarcasm:

[Baby Snooks]

166. Obama's table...

It seems that everyone is at his table except those who elected him. It seems that Bush and Obama both are shooting the bird at everyone.

[Freddie Stubbs]

206. Virginia voters elected him

Kaine is a Virginia voter.

[jumptheshadow]

172. Message to women's and gay groups:

Review Gov. Kaine's moves intensely, and if they don't support your civil rights, then don't donate or hold fundraisers except for individual local candidates who will fight for you.

[Joey Dog]

191. Money

I've followed the "local candidate money" rule for years. I won't give my pittances to candidates who don't support reproductive rights, LBGT rights, and peace. That means I end up contributing to only a few local candidates.

[Bluenorthwest]

210. Step further for me

I'm letting the local Democrats know that they are on notice as well. Most of them want to remain in office or take a step up, and they assume they will have the support they had in this election. They can not be allowed to assume that at all. They need to stand up for me, and stand beside me, or I will not be standing with them, period.

[donco6]

300. I'm done.

I'll never, ever give a dime to another candidate of any stripe for as long as I live.

[mmonk]

179. He must? I didn't know that was a citizenship requirement of Virginia.

[NorthCarolina]

187. We need to establish "The Progressive Party" and then vote such folks into office

Perhaps a flood of Reps and Senators carrying a "Progressive Party" label will form the mental image that finally helps legislators to understand what the American public is looking for.

I will never again cast a vote for "the lesser of two evils", and will write-in if I have to in order to adhere to this principle. No to DLC affiliates, No to Blue Dogs, No to folks hiding behind their "religion" to justify less than equal treatment of all Americans; No Way, No How, No More.

[LostinVA]

197. We have the Green Party -- we just need to have it be more useful

I've tried to get involved in local GP activities, but it's like the local leadership try to amke it as difficult and uninviting as possible. Plus, THEY DO NOTHING. Run for school board, state leg, etc.

[wyldwolf]

198. please

[Politicub]

199. On the issue of gay rights, there is a negative pattern developing

and only those who are deluding themselves can not see it. I was dismayed to read that Kaine is against both civil unions and gay marriage. His position is outside of the mainstream, and in my opinion, makes him unfit to head the DNC.

I don't understand why the least progressive democratic leaders are getting tapped for such important posts, but I'm no longer surprised by it.

[Deja Q]

343. You may have a very good point.

Problem is, nothing has been done except Obama appointing a bunch of people and after a certain point, it becomes delusional to make loose associations and assertions. (the fact everybody made such assertions time and again over the future and yet no second big terrorist attack occurred to cancel election 2008, election 2006, election 2004, et al, is damning proof of delusion.)

More to the point, if you* are seeing big bad things start to happen, why isn't everyone in the streets, yelling their heads off and rioting? Or is everybody else supposed to do that for you*?

As it stands, more in this country are similar to Don Quixote rather than... Paul Revere. Myself not excepted, perhaps - my excuse being something solid and tangible has to be happening. I will not react on suggestion, innuendo, or conjecture. Perhaps that is everyone's excuse. I mean, it's a good one...


* "you" - not as in you personally, but anyone who thinks concept X is going to happen but is unable... or unwilling to be brave enough to do what one takes.

[S_E_Fudd]

204. On the anto-gay amendment...

He did sign the bill putting it on the ballot because he believed the people had to have the last word...however he did personally oppose it and voted against it...

[LostinVA]

205. He didn't oppose it because of the anti-gay issues, but because of STRAIGHT COUPLES

Kaine is anti gay rights, period.

[S_E_Fudd]

215. That is not wholly accurate...

Though my statement was...

He believes gay couples should have contractual rights granted to hetero married couples...

Certainly not far enough as far as I am concerned....

But he did oppose the amendment....and he has been a good governor...and has done an excellent job party building here in Virginia..

Which after all, would be his job as DNC chair...and to defend the platrform as a whole...which he will no matter what it says on gay rights...

Overall...a good choice for the party going forward...

[LostinVA]

220. No, he doesn't believe in equal civil rights, and I AM accurate about his opposition

He cared about how it would affect STRAIGHT couples, not GLBT couples.

Spin all you want, Kaine should NOT eb DNC head, and he is NOT pro-GLBT rights or pro choice.

[S_E_Fudd]

233. You apparently ignored my response...

In your all consuming desire to start an argument...

He believes in gay couples having the same contractual rights as hetero couples...which is of course short of civil unions...

Kaine will be an excellent DNC head...Obama has again shown he knows how to put the right people in the right job...

[bluedawg12]

230. "contractual rights granted to hetero couples" are just legal rights!

There is no such thing as "hetero" visitation rights, or the ability to designate an heir, or hospital visitation rights.

Those are basic human legal rights.

It is immoral to restrict those rights from a predefined group of people because they are not "legally" married.

Yes, they took away those rights in Va. from hetero unmarrieds, but you know, there was no out cry from that quarter because their remedy was "legal marriage." Not so for gays.

It was gay Americans who were boxed in and cornered.

Big of Kaine, as a lawyer, to acknowledge that he may support "contracting between gays."

Holy freaking third reich. :grr:

[S_E_Fudd]

237. The Nazi card...

Interesting...

So Obama is so blind he is appointing a nazi to head the DNC...wonder how that got through...

As I said in my post...whoch apparently went unread...Kaine's support for gay issues is substantially short of my own...

However I know that change does not come quickly...and that in order to get there you make cause with folks you have strong disagreements with...

By your standard neither Abraham Lincoln or FDR would have been elected President...

Tim Kaine is an excellent party builder...and fortunately he has been building our party in Virginia...

He had a great deal to do with Obama's victory in Virginia...and I am glad to have him working doing the same thing for the national party...

[bluedawg12]

242. Restrictive laws against any minority group.

That's history and it's been done.

[donco6]

301. Well, he was wrong from the get-go, wasn't he?

A ballot measure allowing people to vote on a minority group's civil rights should never be supported, period.

[Usrename]

207. Doctor Dean should consider starting another party.

Seriously.

[mrgorth]

208. There are pro-life democrats

get fucking used to it.

[LostinVA]

211. But the P:arty Platform is prochoice

Get fucking used to it.

[mrgorth]

217. I'm not the one

saying who is or isn't a democrat. Has Kaine called for altering the platform?

[LostinVA]

219. Why should the Party have a Party Chairman who doesn't believe in the platform?

[bluedawg12]

231. He will shape the platform.

[bigwillq]

305. And that is fine.

But don't select one to head one of the major, if not the No.1, organizations, of the party.

[ooglymoogly]

209. I would prefer that he had run as a republican, which is, in

fact, what he is...This fairytail fantasy that if someone has a D after their name they are OK is profoundly ridiculous. Rupuks are not admired for their intelligence...they are admired by like idiot minds, mainly other Luddites who do not know how or even want to move forward. If he had an R after his name the ignorance might be understood. Ignorance and dishonesty do not go down well with a D after their name. This kind of mind should be an affront and embarrassment to any intelligent mind and has no business, other than proselytizing for idiocy, in the Democratic party. It is in effect the dumbing down and the ruination of the message of our party of which there has already been far to much. It is in fact like saying "oh, lets recruit that Trojan horse of Luddites to sully our party and forever besmirch the democratic brand.

[EconomicLiberal]

212. Schumer would have been a much better pick.

[keepCAblue]

214. The Republicans didn't lose in 2008...they just changed...

their party affiliation.

The US is now officially a one-party political pony.

[bluedawg12]

234. We are catering to RepubliCrats.

[debbierlus]

248. Amen

[Irishonly]

216. Are we sure he is a democrat?

:(

[Jennicut]

221. Well, he could have been our VP. I am glad we got Joe instead.

Dean was ultra important as Dems were out of power. Now that we are in power, Kaine is more fundraiser than anything else.

[Freddie Stubbs]

334. Positive

;)

[debbierlus]

228. The Center is THE right - and it looks as if the whole Obama administration & Democratic Leaders

Have become the new right...

This isn't change.

It is a smooth transition to the new right.

[bluedawg12]

236. The Dem message now: I got mine screw you.

Why should straights care about gay rights?

Why should white people care about racial discrmination?

Why should white collar workers care about unions and blue collar workers?

Why should men care about reproductive rights?

Why should thinking people care about teens being taught abstinence, preferentially - even if it is not effective?

Why should rich care about the poor?

Why should those with health insurance care about those don't have it?

Why should the educated care about those that aren’t?

Why should those with jobs care about the jobless?

Why should those with homes care about the homeless?

The heart of the Democratic party was, that the very people that didn't have a need cared about those that did have a need, and vice versa.

That's what I see ending.

I got mine you got yours, adios.

Everyone benefitted from that broad coalition of unlike people.

The repugs already have a coalition of "like" people.

[proud progressive]

238. dems are powerful..power corrupts. anyone ready for a third party...yet?

[blue_onyx]

239. This is disappointing

I'm bothered not only by his gay rights positions but also the stem-cell research position. How anyone can see a living, breathing human being who is in agonizing pain and think that a bunch of cells in a pietre dish is equally important is beyond me. Stem-cell research could save thousands, maybe millions, of lives and, to me, supporting stem-cell research IS the "pro-life" position.

I was relieved that Kaine wasn't pick for VP but it's sad that he was even considered a top contender. Now, he's going to be the head of the DNC. I wish Dean would reconsider and stay on to led the DNC.

[proud progressive]

271. 'god, baby', in answer to your pondering

[iandhr]

240. Big Tent

The Democratic Party is a big tent liberals ALL ARE WELCOME in our party. Do we want to make people like Kaine feel unwelcome. Democrats like Warner and Kaine and Webb are the reason VA is blue.

[madfloridian]

241. Oh, dear God, please stop with the big tent stuff after Rick Warren's choice..

and after choosing someone who thinks he can make decisions for gays and women about their private lives because he is opposed in a religious way.

The big tent is only expanding to the right.

[iandhr]

243. I do not like to Warren thing either.

But the guy giving the benediction supports gay marriage and if people are worried about labor issues I think that Hilda Solis as labor secretary speaks louder than Kaine. Remember there is a reason why VA is blue now. Its because we run people like Kaine, Warner and Webb. Kaine will continue the 50 state strategy. Oh buy way he does NOT want to overturn ROE if that is a concern of yours.

[madfloridian]

247. If we have to become "blue" by giving up rights of two groups...

then I have concerns. I really don't care who is chair. I care about the direction of the party.

The big tent is only opening to the right.

[iandhr]

251. Obama's sets policy

and the platform is the most progressive since Roosevelt. I am just being pragmatic the same Democratic candidate that is good for Mass would not win in the south. Kaine had Obama's back from the beginning. Ideally I would like Dean to stay on but he does not want do in 2004 he said he would only do one term.

[donco6]

302. Then why pick a party leader who doesn't agree with the platform?

This makes absolutely no sense.

[LostinVA]

252. Rev. Lowery does NOT support marriage equality

[iandhr]

258. I thought he did

[LostinVA]

263. No, he does NOT support marriage equality

"Separate but not really equal" isn't marriage equality. As Rev. Lowrey knows.

[hulklogan]

306. The guy giving the benediction does NOT support gay marriage.

Please stop lying about it.

[LostinVA]

245. Except Kaine isn't a liberal, and Webb and Warner aren't, either

Although Warner gets a qualified "okay" on social views.

The reason VA is blueish is because of the voter demographics, not the three polis you mentioned.

[iandhr]

250. I never said that...

Webb, Warner, or Kaine were liberal. They are moderates, My point is that the Democratic candidate that you run in VA has to be different then the one you run in Vermont. As much as I love Bernie Sanders (I know he is independent but he caucus with the Dems and was endorsed by the DSCC.) he can not win in the south.

[LostinVA]

266. No, you DID say that

"The Democratic Party is a big tent liberals ALL ARE WELCOME in our party. Do we want to make people like Kaine feel unwelcome."

[kenfrequed]

292. Bah

Yes a big tent where solid progressive democrats are welcome to hang out and vote but are quickly shown the door when it comes time to put people into positions within the administration and the party.

No, far better to put people into these positions that are more conservative than most democrats and more conservative than half the voting population, all to cater to a voting block that never actually supports us.

Whoopie, we are back on track to becoming out of power again and thereby preserving and protecting the DLC's role as triangulators and king-makers. Friggin great.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

244. Some of us still do give a shit.

Thanks for staying on top of this stuff. :hi:

This is just more depressing news heaped on already depressing news.

Obama has a helluva lot of groundwork to make up with me.

[RedstDem]

249. He's No Gov. Dean.......

I Live In Va, And Like Kaine Enough, But He's A Bad Pick For DNC.
Obama Has Been Depressing To Me Overall With His Few Lousy Picks.
I Hoped for Better.

Clinton
Emmanuel
Gates

All Terrible, For The Sake Of Politics, Not The Country, Picks
Sound Familiar?

Still, He's The Better Man For The Job, I Knew He Was Too Conservative When I Voted For Him, And Will Again In 2012. No Republican Has Ever Helped The Common Man...Oh Well, Got Us By The Balls, Doesn't He.


Gobama!!

[brianna69]

253. I see Govenor Kaine is the

latest enemy now of DU that will now be subjected to thread after thread being spoken of in nasty and vicious terms. Not surprising - same crap different day. The daily outrage shown here is just a joke now. Govenor Kaine has been a staunch supporter of Obama from day one and helped tremendously in us winning Virginia. I am happy he now heads the DNC. This thread will probably be up to a 1000 posts of sheer venom and hatred by the end of the day.

[From The Left]

254. Kaine Opposes Same-sex Marriage and Civil Unions

Sounds like Rick Warren approves of the selection of Kaine.

[brianna69]

255. So Govenor Kaine is now an enemy

The narcissism and either our way or the highway attitude of so many here is just as pathetic as that displayed by the far right wing nut jobs.

[madfloridian]

256. Stop calling names. It's time to stop it.

Two groups plus labor advocates are being put on notice by this choice.

No one here is "pathetic."

What is sad is that the party is opening to the right...and the ones on the left are being left to fend for themselves.

[brianna69]

259. No group has been put on notice

You choose to act like you are being persecuted because some decisions have been made you don't agree with. You choose to act like you have been put upon. The last time I checked the labor movement praised the choice of Solis Doyle as labor secretary. It is your choice to think anyone is against you. If the democratic party is so awful become a repug or form your own party and put together everything the way you like since the democratic party is so awful and Mr Obama's leadership apparently doesn't meet your approval.

[bluedawg12]

261. Obviously you got yours- so everyone else STFU??

[brianna69]

262. Bitch away.

Life is so unfair, the democrats are awful. PE Obama is a bigot, death to the DLC, appointing Kaine is a total betrayal and slap in the face blah, blah, blah

[bluedawg12]

265. When did concern over family rights become "narcissism" in the Dem. party?

[madfloridian]

269. You are very contemptuous of rights for some Democrats

like women and gays. You scoff and ridicule, and I wonder why?

[donco6]

303. Ugh, terribly rude. n/t

[madfloridian]

264. That's a really bad answer to a very serious issue. Blame the ones being shoved aside.

Read the OP again. I won't be needing an abortion anytime soon, but others will who are younger than I am. Soon it won't be an option. WHY?

Because our party is developing a "faith-based" opposition to it.

At least the party chair supports birth control for women, at least apparently.

How nice.

[donco6]

293. "Act" like we're being persecuted?

And your post sounds an awful lot like "my way or the highway".

I smell something . . .

[bluedawg12]

260. When did concern over civil rights become "narcissism" in the Dem. party?

[bluedawg12]

268. Using the worst of right wing fundy language such as "narcissism" as code for gays.

"Homosexual activists are very typically characterized by extreme narcissism."
- Evangelical Resources on Homosexuality

I won't bother to link to this hate filled trash, but simply note that it has creeped into DU.

[jumptheshadow]

328. Bingo. Their responses are from the right-wing playbook.

Gays are "narcissists" in one thread. They are a special interest group, meaning they are demanding "special rights" in another thread.

Make no mistake about it, this is coming straight out of the right-wing playbook.

[bluedawg12]

257. People cannot even contract health care durable power of attorney if they are gay, in Va.

But Kaine is interested in "discussing measures."

For sh*ts sake he's a lawyer, he knows this is immoral and violates basic human rights, he should be spearheading the Falwell driven laws to strip human rights from one segment of our citizens.

>>"She added that he is interested in discussing measures “to make sure people can still be able to contract with each other.”<<

[ronnykmarshall]

272. Oh goody the bus just backed up ...

and ran us over again!!

[nvme]

274. One Term

As a Gay man who worked his ass off on the "O"sters campaign, I am up in arms about how some of these appointments and prayers are going. I can't stress enough the engagement tactics we employed to get this man in office. In case we forgot, these same methods can be used to put pressure on not only the administration, the can be employed against our senate leaders as well. Democracy is not an easy thing to maintain. We saw where apathy led us. Put their feet to the fire!

[bluedawg12]

277. People need to be very careful when they embrace right wing ideology.

Underneath the anti-gay, anti-reproductive choice, anti-labor rhetoric, racism sits close to the surface.

There was a reason for a left wing coalition of minorities, because of the majority.

They're still there and tepid right wing idealogy may lead to granting permission to the full bloom of
"anti-left wing" positions - but the coalition to fight it may be gone.

Dangerous game.

[madfloridian]

281. Good statement. When you dismiss two groups right off...you know more will follow.

Yes, it is a dangerous move to leave out parts of your party to appeal to the right wing.

[bluedawg12]

283. It's creeping conservatism, someday the entire package will arrive.

It always does.

[tnlefty]

282. How exciting!!!

:sarcasm:

The new chair is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-stem cell research, anti-labor, WOW!

[AtomicKitten]

287. As the party in power, Kaine will be the fundraiser-in-chief til the midterm elections.

Coincidentally when his term as governor expires.

[Swede Atlanta]

307. What rock?

What frigging rock did this one crawl out from under? He is wrong on every single social issue important not only to Democrats at large but to the incoming administration. Is the Democratic leadership afraid of what the American people told them two months ago? They want change. They see the power and opportunity brought by people with other than evangelical and knowledge-hating philosophies. If this is really what this man is about he needs to be sent to Iraq, Afghanistan or some other country where extremism is king and let him play there. It sounds like he is one of Al-Qaeda, the Taliban or Hamas.

[wyldwolf]

311. What frigging rock did YOU crawl out from under? Kaine is Al-Qaeda!!!??

nutjob "progressive" lunacy at it's finest.

[defendandprotect]

333. Wasn't 2008 election about getting rid of religous fanatics . . . ????

America needs an education re unions and how they've improved the lives

of non-union America --- !!!

Also, see he's a religous fanatic on "partial-truth-abortion" --- !!!

Opposes both same sex marriage and civil unions !!

[polichick]

335. Kaine and Obama are very close friends, they say...

But I can't help thinking that choosing a guy like Kaine is a step backward ~ just when we're having such success.

[madfloridian]

336. Kick.

[madfloridian]

337. More on the dangers of denying equal rights bit by bit.

El Salvador: Pro Life Nation

[Deja Q]

342. Well

1. I too am against abortion when possible. But the post-born should be tended to properly -- to negate the need for abortion in the first place.

2. Good luck with abstinence. Current methods are failing, and nobody wants to mention pointless aspects like "self-respect" and "respect for others" -- after all, the economy is a result of the lack of self-respect and having no respect for others.

3. Nothing wrong with stem cell research if it helps others, and only from babies that end up aborted. Or from other sources applicable. It's still human life; cannibalism in a way. I am ambivalent on that topic.

4. I know some people hate his guts, and that's their problem, but with the marriage/civil union debate, I side with Sir Elton John. He's spelled out his take on the issue with not reasonable clarity, his statements can be found anywhere on the internet. He equates civil unions to marriage, at least in Britain both are granted identical rights, and sees no reason to go out of his way to piss on religious peoples' terms, which is why he does not care for the "M-word". I'm sorry he's hated for that. Maybe if we in the US didn't take a leak on religious terms and pressed for "civil unions" in which to unite, we'd get that too. (FWIW)