When you have been rejected by your own family because of how you were born, then you can tell me

[Spectral Music]

that I don't feel your pain.

Fuck.

I don't like comparing experiences of bigotry because it ends up in a quick race to the bottom of the victim ladder. But to say that gays do not undergo the same discrimination of blacks and therefore they have no right to get as upset as they have gotten over Warren is just wrong.

The discrimination experience for gays has some similarities to that of other minorities:


1. We can be thrown out of jobs because we are gay or perceived as gay.
2. We can be discriminated against in housing for being gay or being perceived as gay.
3. We can be physically beaten up and killed for being gay or being perceived as gay.

But in some ways, the experience for gays is very different:

1. We can be rejected by our families for being gay
2. We can be denied OUR OWN CHILDREN when we come out to a hetero husband or wife and want shared custody
3. We are told CONSTANTLY by our churches from childhood that we are an abomination to God, possessed by the devil, etc. If we are Jewish, we may be told by our older relatives that we are destroying the race by refusing to procreate by heterosexual marriage.

If you are Black in America, you are told you are second class, not as good as whites, and you have to fight that all your lives. If you are Gay in America (and most other places) you are told you are EVIL, deserve to die, and that you are a danger to everyone around you.

Gay teens often contemplate suicide and have a higher suicide rate than hetero teens of all races.

Don't tell me the discrimination against me is bullshit or is not as bad as the discrimination against you.

[yourguide]

1. I was rejected by my family for being born

Sorry, argument out the window. With me anyway.

[Yes We Did]

7. My parents gave me away when I was born.

Fortunately for me my mother came to her senses and took me back.

[JuniperLea]

13. Did they give you away because you are gay?

If not, it's not really the same thing.

[Yes We Did]

16. How the hell should I know why?

I was just a newborn.

That isn't what the OP said. The op said:

"When you have been rejected by your own family because of how you were born, then you can tell me
that I don't feel your pain"

I was given up because of how I was born.

And I am sick of posts here minimizing someone else's struggles to amplify their own.

The GLBT has been through enough without trying to compare and contrast to other groups.

[JuniperLea]

21. You contradict yourself...

First you say, "How the hell should I know why?" Then you say, "I was given up because of how I was born."

The OP was born "gay." How were you born?

[Yes We Did]

23. I was born poor.

I was born to a poor family and they did not believe they could afford to feed me. That's how I was born. My entire family told my mother to abort me (despite the fact that her twin sister already had a child when my mom got pregnant with me).

Instead, she and my father decided to give me up for adoption, and then changed their minds.

The OP said: "When you have been rejected by your own family because of how you were born, then you can tell me
that I don't feel your pain."

I think I qualify.

[JuniperLea]

28. Not even close to what the OP is talking about...

Your family loved you enough to go back and tough it out through poor times. Not so for the OP, who can't change the fact that he is gay.

[Yes We Did]

31. I don't think the OP is talking about himself specifically.

At least he didn't say so. I took it in general terms, as I have actually shared more about my personal life then he has.

[JuniperLea]

34. That may be so, but it's beside the point...

Your folks came back, thankfully. They loved you enough to take the hardship on. When gay kids are disowned, it's usually the bitter and complete end of the family unit as they knew it to be.

[Yes We Did]

37. check your inbox. I sent you a pm

[JuniperLea]

42. Check yours... eom

[Yes We Did]

46. gotcha. n/m

[northernlights]

48. what if you can't change the fact that you're alive

except, of course, by offing yourself.

What about those of us who were rejected because we were born. Not how we were born. That we were born. Is that rejection enough for you?

[JuniperLea]

54. You couldn't possibly be further from the truth...

All rejection within a family is wrong, imho. I think this is the point of the OP.

[CreekDog]

205. the poster was taking issue with the idea that one could be rejected from birth

whether or not one is gay. at least that's what i was reading.

i hate comparing miseries. a lot of awful things happen to people sometimes because of but also without respect to race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, ethnic origin and/or religion.

there were lily white protestants in Hitler's gas chambers too.

[JuniperLea]

206. demdog and I sorted this out via PM

It was easier, and more private, to discuss our feelings and how they came to be in PM. We now understand any miscommunication we may have had, and found a lot of common ground. We've proclaimed ourselves pals in the process:)

I would much rather see arguments go off the board like this. It was very rewarding:) And we didn't smack each other around in "public" which is always nice:)

[Merlot]

29. What difference would that make?

If your family doesn't want you, there aren't degrees as to how bad it is based on the reason.

Being unwanted for ANY reason is the same to the child unwanted.

[JuniperLea]

32. Are you serious?

Did you read the entire saga here? One guy says he's been completely disowned by his family because he's gay, and another says, so what... my family gave me away, but they came back and got me. When the gay guy's family comes back to get him, then you might have a point.

[Yes We Did]

33. But the OP didn't say it happened to him.

It was generalized... no?

[JuniperLea]

35. How does that matter?

I don't think it does.

[Yes We Did]

59. ; )

[JuniperLea]

66. Back at ya, pal... ;) eom

[Spectral Music]

73. Actually, I am a her.

But I couldn't talk to my family for 5 years.

[Yes We Did]

81. Oops... sorry.

About both. You didn't say you were talking about yourself, and if I have to assume, I prefer to assume the best; that it DIDN'T happen to you.

[Spectral Music]

85. No problem.

Things are actually better now.

[Yes We Did]

91. Well that's good then.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[northernlights]

43. same here

Apparently I was supposed to be an abortion. My mother's aunt found out and intervened.

Haven't heard from the "family" in decades.

[grantcart]

195. I think we would form a very large club lol

[PassingFair]

2. Is this a contest for you?

Think how bad it is for BLACK GAYS!

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

3. Or those with PDDs, learning disabilities, physical disabilities...

[Spectral Music]

9. If you read my post, you will know I am not comparing, not wanting a race to the bottom

Read the post, OK?

[Dawgs]

164. I read your whole post, and the entire thing was a comparison.

Just because you didn't want to make it a "race to the bottom", doesn't mean you didn't.

[JuniperLea]

10. I'm convinced that black lesbians are the strongest people on Earth!

They must be.

[JohnnieGordon]

198. Especially the out ones, let's hear it for Wanda Sykes!..nt

[Yes We Did]

4. I didn't see anyone saying that.

What you are doing here is trying to minimize others to maximize your own pain. How about just sticking to what you go through rather than comparing what others went through and continue to go through.

[JuniperLea]

12. I've seen plenty of it here...

It very much IS a matter of civil rights.

[yardwork]

15. You must have missed this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8027056&mesg_id=8027056

For the record, I think that any comparison of suffering between groups just divides us. It's sad and it's pointless. Human rights are not a consolation prize for past oppression. Instead of fighting one another, people who are minorities of one kind or another should band together and fight together.

[Spectral Music]

19. "Human rights are not a consolation prize for past oppression." Exactly~

They are rights we ALL should have, rights we are born with, endowed by Nature and Nature's God with. They are taken from us by governments, aided and abetted by cruel and fearful religiosity.

[Yes We Did]

20. that OP is saying you shouldn't compare and contrast the two.

Or am I missing something?

As I said, the struggles of the GLBT community have validity in their own right and do not need to be... they don't need to be validated by comparing them to the struggles of other groups.

That is all I am saying.

It's been bad enough for the GLBT community. Period. You (not "you") don't need to compare it to that of African Americans, Native Americans, or any other groups.

[yardwork]

24. I think that the use of the word "offensive" - and all in caps - hurt some folks.

Anyway, I just said that I don't think it's helpful to "compare and contrast." However, there's a difference between mildly stating that something is unhelpful and starting a thread with an OP hollering "I am OFFENDED!!!"

It's had sort of a ripple effect...

[Yes We Did]

26. Yes... there are lots of ripples lately.

And being offended can seemingly offend a bunch of other people these days.

I stand by my thread earlier when I say I think a lot of people on here are so used to coming to DU to unload about republicans, and now we don't have them to unload about, but we're still pissed off... if that makes any sense... and so many are just ready to let loose at the first person to sneeze. (yes, I know... horrible analogies. Hope I didn't offend you :evilgrin:)

[yardwork]

27. If everyone on DU agreed on the need for equal rights for all, there'd be no disagreement.

Personally, I think it's sad that there has be discussion about the matter.

[Yes We Did]

30. I really don't think there IS a disagreement on that.

It's pretty cut and dry; GLBT rights are civil rights; support them or get the fuck out of here.

There is some disagreement on to what extent people should be offended about Warren giving the prayer.

Some people are really pissed off about it, and not just in the GLBT community, and some don't really give a shit. And I think some of the people who really don't give a shit about it, really do like to argue.

Nobody likes being told how they should feel, and when you are told how to feel, or told you are this or that because of how you feel, well... you've seen what happens.

I honestly think people are a lot closer on this than it seems. What we really have are a lot of hurt feelings not knowing or not caring how they express themselves.

[yourguide]

83. I fully agree.

And although I dont support warren being at the swearing in, it doesnt mean Obama is trying to oppress anyone. Warren reading a damn 2 minute prayer doesnt mean anything, he's not involved in policy.

[yardwork]

138. Well, I've seen a lot of posts - many of them deleted - that indicate otherwise.

Quite a few DUers have expressed the opinion at one time or another that gay rights are unimportant, are trivial, are an example of "tea and crumpets," are far less important than almost everything else, are a sign of selfishness, etc. There are several threads about this right now, in fact.

Much worse, however, are the mostly deleted posts that say really nasty things about gay people. I won't repeat them because it would just get this post deleted. The posts are gone but the posters are still here.

Why would I care how offended people are about Warren being invited? That would be rather petty. No, what disturbs me are the number of genuinely homophobic posts from DUers and the number of posts and threads that appear, to me, to be telling me that my rights don't matter.

Edit - typo

[Grateful for Hope]

76. I don't think that this is the issue here

I really believe that the vast majority of DU'ers KNOW that there is a "need for equal rights for all" and that they support any and all efforts to achieve these rights.

I have been reading the threads since the awful Warren choice was made, and, from what I have seen, the disagreements here are more a function of how outraged one is at the fact that Warren will have, as many have said, a place of "honor" at Obama's Inauguration, than they are at whether DU'ers believe in equal rights.

This DU'er so wishes that Obama had not made this choice. I am very pro-Obama, but, I have had a hard time understanding why he would wish to invite so many hurt/harsh feelings and such controversy because of a pick that should have been neutral to both Democrats and republicans.

Why would this man want to invite controversy to his inauguration, and, why would he seem so insensitive to a very important segment of his constituency?

I don't know the answer (wish I did), but, I really want to emphasize that DU, IMO, is on the side of equal rights for everyone. Unequivocally.

[Starry Messenger]

25. I think that OP eventually said he disliked metaphors in general.

At least that was the most useful tidbit I gleaned out of there.

Certainly the struggles of the GLBT community have validity in their own right. But certain parallels can be drawn. If you like metaphors. :)

[Balderdash]

40. Useful tidbit?

Your second sentence agrees with the op. Your whole post is a bit
schizophrenic.

[Starry Messenger]

125. It is in reply to #20, which is a reply to #15

Which has a link in it. That OP in the link is the one I'm talking about. I know it's a little difficult to get used to the nesting context of replies here. Sometimes I get lost myself in a long thread.

[Balderdash]

169. Doh! Did it again, sorry.

:blush:

[Orsino]

57. ...by comparing and contrasting the two.

:eyes:

I think that comparisons are instructive, up to a point. Certainly, it's good to get a peek under the hood at the nasty beast driving both.

[Yes We Did]

63. I didn't say I agreed with the methodology.

As I said, I think the points made by GLBT community members are valid on their own right and don't need to compare in search of validation.

I think it dilutes the argument to have to use the struggles of another group to show what yours is going through.

Civil Rights are Civil Rights. Period.

[Balderdash]

36. Then you need to look more carefully.

You do that a lot, jump before you know what you're talking about.
Next you'll get all mad because everyone isn't agreeing with you.

[Yes We Did]

39. Excuse me Balderdash?!

On DU... you are either Pro-GLBT rights or you get tombstoned. So... if anyone is saying that they don't support equal rights, please by all means give me a link so I can alert them.

As far as me getting mad about people not agreeing with me... not likely. I get mad when someone is rude, but not because they disagree. Perhaps you should read more than one or two threads before making such a generalization about someone. Perhaps you should look back at my journal before making such assumptions.

[Balderdash]

44. Buddy, I've read more of your posts than I could

ever have imagined possible by a consenting adult. You are all
over the map on your opinion of the Warren thing and LGBT people.
In one paragraph you are for the LGBT people and wanting them to
shut up. I will probably never read your journal.

[Yes We Did]

53. As I've said... It's not black and white.

If that's all you can see; one thing or another, then you probably shouldn't read my journal.

I prefer to be a little more open minded than some can handle. I have never said anyone should STFU, aside from when it comes to telling me what I can think.

I'm sorry if you can't see the shades of gray. But that's your problem, "Buddy", not mine.

[yardwork]

140. Thank you so much for saying what many gay folks have noticed around here.

It's not just one DUer - it's quite a few who are all over the map. One minute they're telling us that we're imagining things, and the next they're telling us to shut up. One minute they're giving us smiley hugs and the next they're kicking and recommending a thread telling us to shut up. One minute they're telling us that they are deeply offended by any comparison between our struggle for rights and the Civil Rights Movement and when we object they tell us to shut up and holler at us that we're calling them homophobic.

[Balderdash]

168. I know, it's crazy. nt

[Jamastiene]

97. Here is one take on it that might help you understand.

The different forms of bigotry cannot be compared exactly, because the tactics used by those who hate change depending on who it is they are hating at the time,

BUT...

until any one of us has walked a mile in another's shoes, we can only say bigotry and hate are bad for our society in general and we should try to fight it.

Comparing struggles turns into a pissing match with no end in sight to the arguing. But yes, GLBT people do suffer tremendously too just as many groups suffer. It's not the same, but many times, it's the same types of people who are attacking us. The healing is not going to come for any of us until we learn to stick together and fight hate.

[Bluebear]

128. Of course you didn't.

[DaveinMD]

5. I can't imagine

saying such a thing to a child and don't understand it. If my daughter told me she was gay, I'd ask when we get to meet her girlfriend. I just don't get it.

[Xipe Totec]

6. I won't tell you the discrimination against you is bullshit

All I can tell you it that it won't come from me.

or from my family, for that matter.

Those are the people I can vouch for.

The rest of the world must speak for itself.

Peace.

[Spectral Music]

14. Thank you.

I appreciate it.

[vicman]

11. I grew up...

in a very racist family. Needless to say, homophobia was also rampant. These people painted gays and blacks with the same disgusting brush and thought nothing of it. I see the two things as being exactly the same. Denying any human their civil rights is always and forever wrong.

[Starry Messenger]

17. I don't know why people play that game anyway.

Civil rights are civil rights. Supporting gay rights is patriotic!

[Spectral Music]

18. Exactly.

Exactly.

[Starry Messenger]

51. I wonder if that would make a good poster.

"Gay rights are patriotic!" I'm no graphic artist, but maybe I could try...hmm.

[Balderdash]

58. Go for it man! nt

[LiberalinNC]

22. If you were my child, I would love you for who you are, not what I hoped you'd become

I tell my own children this all the time, and thankfully my husband agrees with me. I can not understand how someone can give birth to a child, and then "dis-own" them because they are not the way they want them to be.

I can honestly say that I do not understand how you are feeling, but know that it hurts me to see someone in such pain. :hug:

[Spectral Music]

50. Thank you.

Will you adopt me? :)

:hug:

[LiberalinNC]

192. Sure!!!

[AntiFascist]

38. Heterosexual blacks have it much better today...

they are (usually) accepted by the families, their churches, and their <cough> PE.

What is really sad is to see the phenomena where the once oppressed want to turn into the oppressors. I'm not sure what the psychological reasons are behind this, but I've even seen it to some extent in my own community.

[Spectral Music]

45. Like abused children abusing their own children

Oppression is a two sided script. Even if you are playing the oppressed, you learn well the part of the oppressor. For some people, these are the only roles they know.

[HamdenRice]

163. So you think African Americans are the oppressors in American society? All I can say is ...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[yardwork]

193. Anyone who votes to take away the rights of others is an oppressor, by definition.

Oppressors come in all colors, ethnicities, genders, and religions. Some gay people oppress others. Being part of a group that has been oppressed does not give individuals a pass when they treat others badly.

[HamdenRice]

200. Oh, I forgot, "it was teh blacks fault"

The blacks did it all by themselves, and of course, if any one black person in California voted for it, they are all equally guilty -- nationwide, all of them oppressors -- because, like, you know, they're black!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Jamastiene]

99. It all boils down to united we stand, divided we fall.

It might not be immediate and swift, but in time, every single civil right that has been fought for will be undone, unless we all stand together now to fight to keep the ones we do have and fight for equality for the ones who don't have rights yet.

Yes, abusees do grow up to be abusers many times. I don't understand it either.

[Terran]

176. You've seen black people in your own community

"oppressing" other people? Do tell and provide specifics.

[peace13]

41. My family has rejected me over and over again.

It doesn't matter the reason. For you to think that your rejection hurts any more than mine or anyone else's is just wrong. Sorry. Get in line. And use the right forum for this kind of post.

[Balderdash]

47. What forum would you suggest? nt

[peace13]

56. GD n/t

[Spectral Music]

49. Why do some people only read the title?

There are words in the post itself.

[peace13]

55. I read it. n/t

[Spectral Music]

60. Then tell me why I can't talk about discrimination in this forum, especially since Obama has

chosen Rick Warren?

[peace13]

61. Oh....

just oh.

[Yes We Did]

65. Because you didn't use the Warren Loophole.

Just like when you (anyone) wants to post about the Israel/Palestine conflict. If you want to post it in here, you have to connect it to Dubya or Obama.

But, tell me... where have you seen anyone say on DU that the GLBT community doesn't deserve equal rights. Please... a link. I'll alert it, as that person is breaking one of the biggest rules on here and should be tombstoned anyway.

[Spectral Music]

75. That's not what my OP is about. It is about the fact the some threads compare

discrimination against Blacks to discrimination against gays and say that gays don't suffer as much. This was just a response.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8027056&mesg_id=8027056

[Yes We Did]

80. Yes, I know

I was just trying to explain someone else's comment.

[Spectral Music]

88. Oh. Ok.

Thanks. Sometimes it is hard to follow who said what on these threads. I'm still getting used to the whole nested thing.

[FrenchieCat]

52. I think the biggest difference with Black folks is that they can't get lost in a crowd......

and that my friend, is the difference....since it seems you were looking for differences.

Also, along the lines of what discrimination was for Black folks, they had to fight for the right to vote, for the freedom to eat in the same restaurants, use the same bathrooms, drink at the same water fountain, swim in the same swimming pool, sit wherever on the bus, get access to an equal education, join a countryclub, and be able to live in the same communities, etc.......all without the ability to get by when needed by blending into the crowd.

And certainly there was a time that Blacks were property, where breeding schemes were used, and children and parents were split apart at the say of one person. And let us not forget the way a master could pick which of the young Black salves he might want to sleep with for a night....and how children were begotten from such unions/rapes/exploitation, etc.. and after that of course there were always those who considered them evil, and yes, of course, some believed they deserved to die.

And as a bi-racial pre 60s child, my White Grandfather disowned both my Mom and her children.

Currently, one can get stopped for driving while Black, and the stats on the shoddiness of the Health system for Blacks compared to Whites is quite startling....as are the incarceration rates as well as the unemployment rates for the Black youth. Meanwhile the cases of AIDS in the Black Community have multiplied by alarming numbers....yet they are the group least able to afford the medical care needed to survive.

My point is that Civil Rights are Civil Rights, but in terms of comparing sexual orientation to race; I think we are better off not going there......as discrimination against Blacks, who couldn't ever hide who they were, has been going on for centuries.

[bitchkitty]

62. You forget an important difference -

the pain of slavery and of racial discrimination was and is out there for all to see. The pain of gay people was (and is in many case) hidden. Just because pain is visible to others doesn't make it less painful, or less wrong.

Think of how it would feel to have to hide who you are, live in fear of losing your job, your family, your friends who you grew up with.

Discrimination against gays has gone on for centuries too - why would you think it hasn't?

No suffering can be discounted because someone suffered more, or in different ways. Nobody should be denied the right to be who they are.

[FrenchieCat]

68. I believe that I said that Civil Right are Civil Rights, period.

However, if you are saying that pain from outward public racial discrimination for all to see makes it more palatable....I don't agree with that.

However, having the choice to either blend or not to is still considered an advantage. That is why Blacks who could pass for White certainly did choose to back in the days. Because regardless of how painful it may have been to have to hide who they really were, it certainly made things less difficult.

And I wasn't discounting anything in terms of suffering....just addressing the OP's point in that he alluded that somehow one group has or has had it better than another....because they were never rejected by their family members.

[bitchkitty]

142. Actually, that wasn't what I was trying to convey.

And I used "is" instead of "isn't" in my post, but didn't notice 'til now, sorry.

It isn't, and shouldn't be a "who suffered more" question. Gays were never enslaved as African Americans were, and that's a stain on this country that will take decades more, if not centuries more, to erase. But bad as that is, it doesn't in any way negate or diminish, and it's not more urgent than, other victims of discrimination.

[Spectral Music]

64. But your church doesn't tell you you are evil, demonic.

And historically, gays HAD to blend in--they COULDN'T admit they existed. They had to pretend to be something they weren't. And it's utter hell. There's nowhere to run. Blacks may stand out in a crowd, but they still have a Black crowd they can go home to. If a Black who looked white chose to pass, it was just that, a choice. For gays, we are FORCED to pass, and what is inside just suffers and festers. There is terror that someone might discover you are gay, evil, an abomination.

There are many differences, not just one.

[FrenchieCat]

69. Suffering is suffering.....

comparing the suffering is ill advised.
That was my point.

[Spectral Music]

72. Despite worldy prejudice, you can have hope for your soul; I am consigned to hell before I start

Those sufferings are different.

I compared because you compared, and falsely, by saying there was one difference.

In my OP, I do not compare gay and Black. I show you what gays go through in addition to other common types of discrimination against other minorities.

[FrenchieCat]

74. By saying that Gays go through additional discrimination, you were comparing.

The Gay Community has its own history and its own discrimination that it faces.

It doesn't make it additional...it makes it different.

and certainly Black folks have come a long ways, but they are still more of them in our jails, less of them on our college campus, and most are still found in the lowest economic strata, living in some of the most dangerous neighborhoods...with schools still considered unequal.

My point is that there should be more than enough empathy and work still needed to be done to go round, without any one group feeling compeled to grab the mantle as "most discriminated against".

The solution should be to alleviate as much discrimination for as many as possible....with the goal of reaching zero tolerance for any discrimination, period.

[Spectral Music]

79. I compared because you did. Your post needed a response.

My initial OP rejects comparison, and if you had read it you would see that. As I said in the OP, it's a quick race to the bottom of the victim ladder.

Your response was a comparison: there was one difference and it was that you stuck out in a crowd. (Assuming it's a crowd of whites.) I was trying to show you that there wasn't just one difference.

As soon as I stated that your church didn't think you were an abomination but mine did (for being gay), then you decided to stop comparing, because the pain of a pre-damned soul is really hard to one-up (or one-down, I guess.)

[ecstatic]

86. Fail. Your OP and posts throughout this thread compare

Including your "blacks are like abused children" post. :eyes:

[Spectral Music]

94. My OP rejects comparison. I compare because Frenchie Cat did. It's a losers game to compare.

But I never said "Blacks are like abused children." Ever.

What I said was the oppression has two sides, and we learn both. In the same way that some people abused as children abuse their own children--they learned it from their oppressors and then became oppressors.

All oppressed peoples--all--run that risk. Many do not end up abusing others because they have done self-exploration and have realized the system they grew up in. But if you remain unconscious of your early learning, you are more likely to apply the abuse you had to others. That is a very sound psychological principle.

I am surprised you interpreted it the way that you did. If you were hurt by it, I am genuinely sorry. Sometimes, it is really hard to keep up and perhaps I should have explained it better.

But comparing the victimhood of gays and Blacks is something I think leads nowhere except down. I only compared with Frenchie Cat because she started comparing us by saying there was one difference, which was wrong.

[FrenchieCat]

95. My response spoke of the biggest difference, not the only difference.

And you making comparisons and then saying you are not comparing doesn't really quite hit the spot.

According to the religious teachings in many White Churches, Slavery was justified in the Bible, and Jesus had Blue Eyes, and God are has White Hair.....so don't talk to be about what Churches believe. There are many churches out there, and I guess it would all depend on which one would chooses to join! One is not born of a church in where they have no choice to leave it.

[Spectral Music]

101. You compared. So I compared in response. That is all.

"According to the religious teachings in many White Churches, Slavery was justified in the Bible, and Jesus had Blue Eyes, and God are has White Hair.....so don't talk to be about what Churches believe. There are many churches out there, and I guess it would all depend on which one would chooses to join! One is not born of a church in where they have no choice to leave it."

According to Christian teaching, slaves did have a soul. Look at Paul's letters in the New Testament. And as oppressive as some forms of Christianity were in the hands of slave holders ("Slaves be obedient to your masters") it was the core of Christian teaching that slaves had a soul and could go to heaven. It was this core that supported the oppressed black community and gave the Black Civil Rights movement its moral strength. Moral, not merely political. MLK was a preacher, not a politician.

But according to Judeo-Christian teaching, homosexuality was an abomination and still is. While few non-ignorant people would seriously argue that Jesus was blue-eyed (he was from the Middle East, for God's sake), many still feel that there is something inherently morally wrong with being gay. Many mainline Christians and many fundamentalists see the idea of a gay person being moral as fundamentally impossible. The gay rights movement does NOT have the same moral support that the Black Civil Rights movement did because of this.

When you start out life in a world where almost EVERY major religious tradition around you looks on homosexuality as being a sin, an abomination before God, and the gay person as immoral from the start, you carry this with you your whole life, even when you leave your church, it is still there.

The Christian God can love you and you can go to heaven based on your own actions. The Christian God cannot love me in the same way and no matter how good I am, I am inherently flawed, evil and without potential for salvation.

[FrenchieCat]

106. Look....the comparisons have to stop.

The bible was used against both minorities. Many religions believed that Blacks were somehow sub-human (Mormons for one) which has no advantage to religions believing that being Gay is committing a sin. One is not "better" than the other, IMO.

Some family members don't accept their gay relatives, but some do.
as well, some family might not accept offsprings of an interracial relationship or disown members that fall in love with someone of a different race....or some have.

You saying that Black Folks could go back to a Black crowd, can easily be said as well of Gay folks going back to their Gay crowd. It doesn't make sense....since the "crowd" that I speak of is the Majority....and for a long time, they had the power to determine what institutional tools would be used to further discriminate.

My point is that your entire OP, even with the disclaimer, went on to compare the discrimination suffered by each group, and how The Gay Community had it worse.

I'm saying that seperating the plight of each can only help in building divisions. That shouldn't be what you are wanting.

[Spectral Music]

109. "and how The Gay Community had it worse. " NO, I definitely did not do this.

You are the one who started comparing who had it worse. I said in the OP that I don't believe in comparing. I was showing how our discrimination differs and how much pain there is in being gay, which some people on this board don't understand.

I think you need to stop judging me and take the rod out of your own eye. The splinter fell out of mine a long time ago.

[FrenchieCat]

133. When you post things like your post#72, it's hard to get a different impression!

Spectral Music (257 posts) Mon Dec-29-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Despite worldy prejudice, you can have hope for your soul; I am consigned to hell before I start
Those sufferings are different.

I compared because you compared, and falsely, by saying there was one difference.

In my OP, I do not compare gay and Black. I show you what gays go through in addition to other common types of discrimination against other minorities.

--------------------------------------
In your op, you do compare Gay and Black....and you say in your post #72 that Gays go through additional (meaning: more/on top of/added to) discrimination apart from the discrimination suffered by other minorities.

There is no doubt that Gays are discriminated against by the haters....
I just find the whole manner in which you are making this point to be divisive.
But hey, that's just me.

[Spectral Music]

146. Reaching for straws Frenchie Cat. I already said I compared because you compared.

The OP tries to show some differences; Different ways in which gays are discriminated against. Ways that are different from the ways other minorities are treated. It was not a race to the bottom of the victim ladder or who was MORE oppressed. The fact that you took it that way says a lot about your own personal psychology.

[Balderdash]

67. Maybe we can talk when the first openly Queer

is elected President by a majority of Americans.

[FrenchieCat]

70. Perhaps.

And I don't think that A Black President would have been possible until after Blacks finally got the right to vote. That's what those marches were primarily all about.

[Balderdash]

89. I know what the marches were about, I lived them.

I was too young to actually march but I saw and I fell in love
with MLK. I'm white, there was nothing in it for me but that it
was right, you could feel it to your core. Every black person
that was injured or killed or ridiculed hurt me as a human being.
I so wanted to be there for you in a real way, standing with you.
I do so now.

As a lesbian I've lived half my life in a closet, unable to be
who I am. Yes I can blend but I can not be happy. I spent years
in marriages or other situations with men and I could not love them,
I hurt them and I hurt me and I hurt my 2 children trying to be what
society tells me I must be. To be abandoned by a god that made me
flawed from the git go and then wanted to punish me for that flaw.

There are differences and there are comparisons but it really is just
about civil rights for all.

[FrenchieCat]

107. I agree.....

There are differences and there are comparisons but it really is just
about civil rights for all......

[Yes We Did]

71. How about when it's agreed upon that the majority...

does NOT get to vote on the rights of the minority, and that every single person in this country is treated the same.

Although... your suggestion might happen sooner.

[Balderdash]

77. Wow! You caught me off gard with that one and

I can totally agree with you on that. :)

[Yes We Did]

82. As I said...

We're not really far from agreement. I mean... we are all Democrats. right? And if that caught you off guard, you should check out my unity thread.

[Spectral Music]

84. Where is your unity thread?

Thanks.

[Yes We Did]

103. Right here dropping like a stone.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8043975

but it does have 5 recs already.

[Bluebear]

129. Until a "lisp" is detected. Or a 40 year old is unmarried and questioned. We are not lost in crowds

[FrenchieCat]

132. yeah...ok.

So what is this reference to Gaydar, that I hear so much about? http://www.okcupid.com/gaydar

[Spectral Music]

145. No, it's a reference to being perceived as gay

And then being treated poorly by many people.

[Bluebear]

159. "Gaydar": people surmising sexuality based on stereotypical "evidence"

[musicblind]

202. Which has actually been backed up by research

There are a lot if interesting peer reviewed articles proving the existance of gaydary. You can look them up if you have a university server.

There have been flashcard tests (using pictures). Tests using shillouttes. And the "party" test. Where people mingle in parties with gay and straight individuals and then have to guess on sexuality.

The accuracy that people guess is amazing!

And then there was an article on "hand to hip ratio" and "swagger" but I don't remember all of that article and what those ratios were.

Still. Lots of interesting stuff. Gaydar is very real. If you think someone is gay... it is not 100% promised that means they're gay but the chances favor your educated guess to be correct :D

[dsc]

166. as a 40 year old unmarried man who sticks up for gay rights

I can tell you my students assume me to be gay (despite my not answering the question when asked). One can hide but only by either directly lying or at the very least neutering oneself beyond being recognized.

[noamnety]

78. It's a no win situation.

When the struggles of glbt people are compared to other groups, we are told that's offensive, we need to "stand on our own struggles."

(I'm not entirely sure what that means, it's a sort of sink or swim statement - you can get your rights so long as you do it without the benefit of our experiences or lessons learned. I don't understand why other groups don't WANT their struggles to be used to advance the rights of others. I am lost on that point.)

But when we try to stand on the history of glbt people directly, we are told we already lost the argument because we mentioned the word Hitler. The community isn't allowed to draw analogies from other civil rights struggles OR refer to their own past, judging from a range of DU responses.

[Yes We Did]

90. What it mean....

At least what I mean when I say it is that the attrocities that have happened to the the GLBT community are bad enough. You don't need to compare and contrast. You don't need to validate.

They are different from any other group, just as it was for Women, for African Americans and for Native Americans.

Each group has had their own struggles, and each one has been valid on the basis that it happened at all.

That is the point I try to get across. Sometimes it is put so people understand, and sometimes it is not. However, that's the problem with a discussion board; too much can be assumed. Too much can be taken out of context; whether you mean to or not. It all depends on who is reading what, and how that person feels when they are reading.

[noamnety]

100. There is value in comparing and contrasting.

In educational theory, it's a skill within Bloom's taxonomy. http://krummefamily.org/guides/bloom.html

The ability to compare and contrast is a critical element in understanding history - including the history of oppression, labor history, colonialism, all those things. Being able to draw comparisons from one situation to the next is a skill we should be encouraging, not discouraging. Seeing connections in general is a skill we should be encouraging; it's the basis of critical thinking.

Something for the rest of DU to consider: glbt people here wouldn't feel that they had to validate their experiences as oppressed people through analogies so people can "get it" if DUers hadn't been busy trying to invalidate their experiences to begin with.

[Doctor_J]

87. Does this have anything to do with the inauguration? If so, what?

If not, isn't it the wrong forum?

[Balderdash]

92. It's the right forum. nt

[Doctor_J]

93. So I guess it has something to do with jan 20. Please explain.

[HelenWheels]

96. You forgot - you can be beat up and bullied in school because you're gay

and everyone will look the other way because you "deserve" it. I hate bullying with a passion, and I've made little head way with our school district over it. We have anti-bullying rules but no enforcement - and they wonder why we have school shootings!

It's about making a person an It rather than a person. The two groups that still have open season on them are gays and atheists but atheists can hide their beliefs - some to the point that they are active in their churches because the church in many areas are so vital to social standing.

If anyone is interested in the bullying process and how and why it exists read Barbara Coloroso's book The Bully, The Bullied and the Bystander - it's mainly about school bullying but it does apply to all forms of bullying whether in the work place or from the pulpit. I get very disgusted when those that sit in the pews who truly disagree with the anti-gay garbage say and do nothing but make excuses or just dismiss it with a statement that they don't think that way - it's like those non-apology apologies (I sorry if you were offended.)

[Politicub]

98. Thank you for this post

Judging by some of the replies, you are taking a lot of heat for speaking the truth. How dare people minimize the discrimination that GLBT folk experience.

[Spectral Music]

102. Thank you for your support.

This is a crazy thread. Does DU get this crazy all the time?

[Balderdash]

104. Heh! This is sweetness and light compared to

the primaries. *shiver*

[Spectral Music]

110. Well, then I'm glad I wasn't here then.

You know I really thought fellow Democrats would understand why Warren was such a slap in the face. I'm really surprised by the reaction on this board. I understand they feel like they need to defend Obama, but we shouldn't be silent about something that problematic.

[Balderdash]

113. I know, I've been a little distressed too

to find so much objection to LGBT outcry. It's been a bit
bewildering. :)

[Spectral Music]

115. The first few answers I got to this post were really off the wall

There was a deleted comment (about abortion) that was really rancid.

[Starry Messenger]

105. GD-P does.

It's kind of a Thunderdome forum.

[comrade snarky]

108. Screw it

This isn't worth the post I put up.

Enjoy the argument, it's all a lot of the people here want. I'm done reading these threads.

Edited to delete

[Spectral Music]

111. What post did you put up?

Why did you delete it?

[comrade snarky]

126. Arguments over whose pain is worse

Are immature and stupid. I don't give a damn which side and I'm not going to get into an argument or even a discussion. It's not worth my time. There are real issues in the world.

Maybe we'll meet again in another thread. For now goodbye.

[Spectral Music]

148. I agree with you. The OP was not about whose pain was worse but how it might be different.

Many people don't know the kind of pain gay people go through. They say, well your ancestors weren't slaves (unless we are Black) so you don't know suffering. My point was that we DO have suffering. It is different but it is painful as all hell. I just wanted to make some people see that. The comparison began before I started my thread, in other threads, where people said that discrimination against gays was in no way comparable to discrimination against Blacks, racism. My job was to show that the pain we go through is real and that the discrimination can be just as bad (or worse). It was not meant to start a pissing contest. It was meant to enlighten some people as to the suffering of others. That's all.

There is only one place on this thread where I do compare and that is in the interchange with Frenchie Cat who tried to imply that being Black was worse because you stood out in a crowd. I bet her that her religion didn't tell her she was an abomination and headed for hell from the time she was small. I probably shouldn't have let her pull me into that argument, but the thread was going fast and furious by then, and Frenchie Cat started to personally attack my credibility to I had to get involved.

But my real goal is NOT to say "Homophobia is worse than racism" but to point out the kinds of horrible things that happen to gays that others might not know about.

[Kucinich07]

112. Sorry to hear that

In my Hispanic community I've seen some cases of intolerance from parents to gay sons and daughters. It's sad.

[Spectral Music]

118. Mine was a very traditional family

And very religious. Thanks for your kind words.

[Danger Mouse]

114. oh ffs, this isn't a pissing contest now, is it?

[Balderdash]

116. No it isn't, try reading before replying. nt

[Danger Mouse]

120. I read the OP.

[Spectral Music]

117. No. It's to counter the idea that gays don't have as much to worry about.

See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8027056&mesg_id=8027056

[Danger Mouse]

119. Well, that OP was stupid to begin with.

Maybe it wasn't your intent. but it makes it sound like you're trying to say one group has suffered more than the other.
There's no question that gays have suffered and continue to suffer because of who they are. There's no denying it, or diminishing it.

[Spectral Music]

121. Mine?

Or wndycty's?

[Danger Mouse]

122. The OP that I called stupid? wndycty's.

[Spectral Music]

154. Ok. Thanks.

I was worried there for a minute.

[Spectral Music]

156. You know that thread got 122 recommends.

This one only has about 21 right now. Something is weird.

[Balderdash]

167. Well you need to be more of an attention whore like wndycty

he keeps kicking his own thread. But you're right, something is really wrong
with the picture that that post paints. I'm wondering if DU is not the place
for GLBT folks, hell maybe even the Democratic Party is not the place for us.

[Danger Mouse]

186. A thread saying that we need to immediately seize all of the assets of the wealthy got over 100, too

all it proves is that a lot of people will blindly rec something, especially if it taps into raw emotions such as anger or bitterness.

[Spectral Music]

189. Oh, Ok.

So it doesn't have to do with merit.

[Danger Mouse]

197. It often doesn't. I've seen some loathsome posts get recommends.

[Solon]

123. Some things that shouldn't be forgotten, GLBT people were, in the past forced into therapy...

including electroshock therapy, hormonal treatments, and other invasive procedures to change them into heterosexuals. Even today, in the United States, this happens far too often, especially to GLBT youths, who are forced into "reparative therapy" facilities that basically try to torture them into being straight. The fucked up part is that sometimes these "treatments" are paid for by the state, or insurance companies.

[Spectral Music]

157. Yes, Solon. Excellent point and thank you!

This is something that many folks don't get.

[we can do it]

124. Wow - Thank You, I Was Trying To Think of a Way To Say This

and you did - Having your family reject you when they should love you is beyond horrible.

[Spectral Music]

147. Thank you for your support.

It's been a tough thread. :(

[we can do it]

182. Hang In There

:hug:

[kwassa]

127. The key point from your OP

you said:
"Don't tell me the discrimination against me is bullshit or is not as bad as the discrimination against you."

Nobody said that the discrimination is bullshit.

But YOU drew the comparison with your OP, and that is over how bad the discrimination is. Why do that?

What I object to is drawing an analogy between racial discrimination and discrimination against gays in the first place. The history of the two groups is totally different from one another. They both share the issue of civil rights, but not a lot else. It serves no purpose to draw such comparisons.

and guess what?

People who are not gay are rejected by their families, and by their churches, and their communities, for being different from the accepted norm in that community. I've known many over the years. I believe that your pain is real, and your suffering is real, but that type of rejection is not unique to gays alone.

[noamnety]

130. If I read the OP correctly

They weren't saying: My Oppression is Worse Than Yours.

The OP was asking the exact opposite - for others to stop telling the glbt community: The Discrimination of My People is Worse Than the Discrimination of Your People.

I think you are both in agreement (yes?) that we shouldn't be trying to quantitatively compare amounts of oppression.

[kwassa]

136. well, I agree with that

but I don't understand the complaint by the author of the OP about the other thread, which says exactly the same thing, doesn't it? That thread also said, in the OP, the very same thing.

[noamnety]

141. The OP in the other thread did say the same thing, yes.

I think it was received differently by some people here because of a perception of very recent antagonization of the glbt community by that particular poster, even within the OP itself.

There's a difference in how things are received if you are the group that is currently in the process of being shitkicked by popular vote and an "ally" is yelling at you that your method of dealing with it is OFFENSIVE BULLSHIT!!!

In that dynamic, too, in dealing with allies, there are some similarities between the two movements. ;)

[Spectral Music]

151. Thank you, lwfern. You got the message!

Some people just don't.

[Balderdash]

131. When I read a post like yours all I get out of it

is that you don't want any icky queer cooties to get on your discrimination.
The struggles are NOT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and your saying it doesn't make
it so.

[kwassa]

134. I'm not saying they are completely different

I'm saying that they are mostly different because the history of oppression is so different.

The central issue of civil rights is the same, and the best argument for same-sex marriage comes from the black civil rights movement, which is that separate-but-equal never works.

The types of discrimination experienced were very different, though.

[noamnety]

139. I appreciate your acknowledging that similarity

because I do think the separate but equal argument is a key concept for gay rights activists to be able to draw on.

I think people are using the analogies to help others come to an understanding of why discrimination based on orientation is wrong, by asking things like this: "If you can follow the logic that separate but equal doesn't work here ... what happens when you apply that logic to this situation over here?"

Similarly, if gay rights activists use the words of black civil rights leaders to validate beliefs like people in power do not voluntarily give up that power - is using their lessons learned okay because it's for the greater good? I view it both as not reinventing the wheel and paying honor to them, in the same way I quote some of my friends who have a better way with insight and words than I have. I can't be in their heads, but I am hoping/trusting that the people who wrote those words would want them used to advance civil rights for everyone.

I've seen some comparisons of the type of discrimination made, and it's unfortunate, and I am sure I haven't looked at the same threads in all that you have, but my impression is that it's usually in response to others trivializing the abuse of gays. "You were never killed for being gay, not like we were" is followed by photos of people who were killed for being gay. I think there is some ignorance, some of it mindblowing to be honest. One DUer posted some outrage that someone drew a "comparison" to gays being persecuted and people being rounded up in Nazi camps ... and someone had to step in to say "dude, hold up, that's not an ANALOGY, we WERE rounded up in those camps."

That last part is a little off topic maybe, I am just expressing some frustration at how little people actually know about discrimination against gays, and explaining that some people here have been trying to overcome that ignorance in a variety of ways, from relaying direct personal experiences to making analogies that they *hope* will help other people get it, at least on some level.

[kwassa]

143. my frustration comes from a different direction

although I think most are quite well-intentioned, I think that some here, while sympathetic on the level of being anti-racist, either don't know a lot of the specific history of the civil rights movement and/or have little contact with African-Americans on an everyday basis. The parallels drawn by them can have the effect of co-opting the current situation of African-Americans for another cause, which I think will backfire in gaining support from blacks.

That is my largest concern in what appears to be the continuing trend of drawing parallels between these two groups.

[noamnety]

144. I don't know if you saw my post over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x110072#110082

Yours is one of the voices I've been seeking out and digesting, in other words, even though I lurk in that forum rather than posting in it.

[Spectral Music]

153. Kwassa, the same argument can be made for gays: People don't know about gay history at all

There are many gays in history who have been shadowed, hidden, their gayness written out of history. We have a hard time finding them to even chart our history. And many people don't have much contact with gays or with people they know are gays. We know who will be good to us and who won't.

Why does drawing the parallels bother you so much? Is it because you do think racism is worse than homophobia?

[noamnety]

160. That's a strong point, there.

Being told to "use your own history" is maybe not so helpful when it's the history of a group of largely closeted people up until relatively recently. Added to that, though - and equally not helpful - is a lack of cultural knowledge. We can point to the writings of MLK, Jr. and everyone gives that some weight automatically because we all know who he is. The gay activists, on the other hand, are excluded from school lessons and textbooks because to teach about them would "corrupt" our kids ... so there is no cultural common set of heroes to draw on. We kind of all know the Montgomery bus boycott, that people had to sit in the back of the bus, who Rosa Parks is - even if the knowledge is very superficial, insultingly so. But a great number of people haven't even heard of Stonewall, wouldn't know who Harvey Milk was if it weren't for the movie out right now, and can't name a single gay rights activist.

Spectral, as a side note, I would ask that you don't imply that kwassa is claiming racism is "worse" than homophobia. I'm partly asking that because it's a poster I know to be honest, well spoken, and a supporter of civil rights in general in ways that others only claim to be, and someone I consider a mentor of sorts, even though it's just in a "I lurk and read their posts" kind of way. I think what they are saying is that a sense of ownership of a unique history is different than thinking one's history is more or less important, or better or worse than anyone else's. And I think that's what they are getting at - the sense that they are losing ownership of their own history as we decide when and where we will use it, and how we will interpret it. (Kwassa, is that a fair assessment?)

[Spectral Music]

179. OK lwfern, I'll take your word for it

I am new here and am just a little shocked at the responses. If you know Kwassa to be posting in good faith, then I bow to your assessment.

[kwassa]

185. you have it.

you said:

"I think what they are saying is that a sense of ownership of a unique history is different than thinking one's history is more or less important, or better or worse than anyone else's. And I think that's what they are getting at - the sense that they are losing ownership of their own history as we decide when and where we will use it, and how we will interpret it. (Kwassa, is that a fair assessment?)"

My bolding, but you hit the nail on the head.

[Spectral Music]

190. What exactly does that mean in regard to the gay community?

That somehow we are piggybacking on Black history? I don't think that is the case. What we see is that have a common cause with African Americans and that comparing suffering as to who is the greatest victim is a losing game.

I do not understand why there was ANY support for Warren on DU at all. I have looked back at some of the threads--you recommended that I should--and some of the comments are really vile. Why didn't EVERYONE say right away in one voice, Warren has to go? I don't get the support for him, except that many in the Black community think that the suffering of gays is somehow not real.

[noamnety]

196. Many in ALL communities

think that suffering is somehow not real.

Singling out the black community is not so different (eek analogy warning) than people blaming a lost election on the gays. Many more white people are republicans than black people, and they were behind the organization of prop 8, but we don't make a point of repeatedly saying "white people took our rights away."

I think when we point fingers at the black community for that vote - even though we know it was overwhelmingly white people funding and organizing it - we're being misguided. Black individuals may have voted in a higher percentage than white individuals, but let's not kid ourselves about who held the power in that episode, or who has been behind pretty much every movement to deny rights to gays (or women, or any other minority group).

There's a little bit of an attitude that white people ... well, it's not exactly that they get a pass, but their race doesn't become an issue when they speak out against gay rights. Even in all these Warren threads, nobody has made his whiteness an issue (except in a vague - he's got all the privileges together richwhitefundiestraightmale sort of way). It was never about his whiteness, not as a single issue. But when random black woman goes through an exit poll, even though she holds no power, it's suddenly about her blackness. A white mormon who voted for it is "a mormon." A black baptist who voted for it is "black."

What I would recommend to you is the same thing I would recommend to straight "allies" who don't get why the glbt community is so pissy at the moment. To them, I would say - spend a few weeks reading the glbt forum - without commenting. Just read and listen. To you, I would say: spend a few weeks holding your tongue on this specific issue, and read the race/equality forum in depth, and the African-American Issues group. Take particular note of the "best of" threads, because that's where you will find them spelling out how DU is not welcoming to people of color - again, with the analogy being how DU is not welcoming to glbts.

I learn a lot from just absorbing the viewpoints there, and on other blogs by people of color, where I try to read, not lecture. I owe a special thanks to people like Bliss Eternal who I've sent some particularly dumbass messages to at times, sadly it's only after I hit send that I tend to read them with her eyes and realize, shit, I sound ignorant here. (Bliss, sorry about that, if you are reading this.) On reading other blogs with different perspectives, sometimes I get pissed off at their views, and it takes a few weeks to get the message, and even then I might not agree, but I can at least see it through their eyes and explain their point of view. Eating Indian food is a good example. I am all about the curry. I gained a new perspective reading the blogs of people who are fed up with folks appropriating their culture - ooooh, look, exotic spices -- without taking time to give a shit about the people. I still like Indian food, I'm not gonna lie about that, and I'm not convinced I'm harming anyone by going to a local restaurant that serves up a good curry. But I at least understand that people feel that way, and I understand why.

[Spectral Music]

152. Kwassa: "The types of discrimination experienced were very different, though."

Please tell me how you see it.

[Spectral Music]

149. I didn't draw a comparison. I showed you some different ways in which gays are discriminated against

These are things that some people don't know about and so they think gay rights is some kind of unimportant thing. This idea underlies so much of the Warren discussions.

"Nobody said that the discrimination is bullshit."

No, but several threads have implied that racism is far worse than homophobia. Look at some of wndycty's posts. That's an insult to those of us who have suffered.



"What I object to is drawing an analogy between racial discrimination and discrimination against gays in the first place."

Why? How does that bother you?



"and guess what?

People who are not gay are rejected by their families, and by their churches, and their communities, for being different from the accepted norm in that community. I've known many over the years. I believe that your pain is real, and your suffering is real, but that type of rejection is not unique to gays alone."



You really didn't get the post, did you. You took from it what you wanted to and ignored the rest.

[xchrom]

135. anti-gay bigotry is is so entrenched in every culture around the world --

that it's very hard for people to see or understand the discrimination.

some of the responses in this thread are great examples of the blindness that so pervades dominate sexual cultural expression.

[Spectral Music]

150. Oh, exactly, exactly!! THANK YOU!

That's exactly the problem.

[Undercurrent]

137. .

Yes there are other groups who have experienced being rejected by their families and society in general. Who have been shunned and feared, locked up, denied basic rights, experimented on, had their brains surgically, and electrically damaged, drugged, sterilized, called evil, scorned, laughed at, made homeless, had their children taken from them, denied the right to adopt, denied employment, and housing, fired from jobs, and attacked and even killed - sometimes beaten, raped, even burned alive.

That group is the mentally ill. I'm a member of that group, and have had many of those things done to me. My life has been a strange journey. A journey that took me from being the wife of a CEO to four months in a state hospital in the deep south, to life on the streets, and a lot of fear, and suffering along the way. Thank god for medication. I'm no longer in that place. I'm now a reasonably happy, functioning silversmith, with my own little business.

Was my suffering more than any other group? Less? No. Neither. That is not the way it works. ALL suffering caused by prejudges, hate, fear, and the denial of civil rights is wrong. Period. The denial of civil rights, and basic human dignity to ANY group hurts us all. Diminishes our joined humanity.

[Spectral Music]

155. Mental illness is poorly understood by the general public

I am sorry for your pain. I understand that kind of rejection.

[Undercurrent]

162. Thanks, but no need to feel sorry for me.

That was long ago, and far away.

The point is that we are in this little boat together, and we will sink or sail depending on how well we work together. Engaging in victim pissing contests is a waste. We have a lot of work to do, and we need each other. As imperfect as we all are individually we can't get this done alone, or by fighting with our allies.

[Stellabella]

158. You're absolutely right.

n/t

[Two Americas]

161. this is a good post

The OP is good, the resistance and opposition surprising and the lack of recs disappointing.

Straights need to start standing up and speaking out. They are not, and that is the problem.

[Spectral Music]

177. Thank you.

I think people are afraid of being perceived as gay if they stand up for gay rights.

[Dawgs]

165. Another post that doesn't help anything.

Why don't you start a thread that addresses the fix instead of continuously pointing out the problem?

This isn't freerepublic.

[Balderdash]

171. You never have anything of worth to say

and everyone who doesn't think like you is a fucking freeper. How old
are you numbnuts?

There is some actual dialogue going on in this thread and you can't stand it.

[Zuiderelle]

170. Great post. But frustrating how many people are criticizing you for it.

Not surprising, but frustrating. How the hell can anyone criticize what you said? We've been told that we shouldn't compare gay rights to black civil rights, that it is offensive to do so. So, you point out the very real problems we face as gay Americans, and you get grief from people here.

Just sad.

K&R

[marimour]

172. not compare, equate, but I'm sure you knew you were quoting inccorectly.

Not one person on DU has said dont compare the two. That thread was offering a black perspective on what the general reaction is when people EQUATE them, which I have seen people do, especially after Prop 8. If you don't think that is useful then don't be surprised when the next prop 8 comes around and the same approach backfires with black people. And this thread isn't about informing, its about a pissing contest for who is the bigger victim, and its stupid.

[Balderdash]

173. This thread is NOT A PISSING CONTEST

and if that's what you came away with than I can only assume that
you either didn't read the thread or you've got blinders on or
you just don't comprehend what's being said.

I won't tell you what I think is stupid.

[Spectral Music]

181. Thank you.

:hug:

[Spectral Music]

175. "Don't equate" = "our suffering is worse than your suffering;" It's inherently comparative

And an insult.

What you are really saying is that Black people feel that their suffering is the greatest and they don't intend to lose their position at the bottom of the victimhood ladder.

"don't be surprised when the next prop 8 comes around and the same approach backfires with black people."

Actually this "approach" of "equating" was not used; the commercials in California were all about the right to marry. There was only one commercial I saw that talked about Civil Rights in general and many different groups' experiences were talked about including the Japanese Americans who were interned in the US during WWII.

It's amazing how gays are expected to support Blacks at every turn, but you're not expected to support us back. If we don't support you, we are racist. If you don't support us, well, it's because we're using the wrong approach, we're "equating" our suffering to yours. It's not because there is a lot of homophobia in the black community so a lot of men have to be on the down low. Nah. That couldn't be it.

[kwassa]

187. You are really going down the wrong road on this.

You are new, and you missed the hundreds of threads on this very topic before you got here. Those threads started on November 4th and were really unbelievable for several weeks.

I suggest you do a search and look for Prop 8 threads, including locked and archived threads, before doing this again.

There is nothing you have said that hasn't been said repeatedly before, and responded to repeatedly before, over and over and over, not unlike the amount of activity on the Rick Warren threads.

[Spectral Music]

188. But that was what was said to me. That was what was meant. And a threat was made.

How can truth be the wrong road on this?

The poster does not want to stand together: he wants to play the greatest victim game. All I ask is that our suffering be respected enough to have support from ALL Obama supporters in having Warren removed. The apologists for the bigot are just wrong.

[Spectral Music]

209. You have mail

NT

[Spectral Music]

174. I know. I think when they say we're not supposed to compare, they mean

we're not supposed to take our suffering as seriously as they take theirs.

[tbyg52]

178. Thank you.

One of my friends in college had his stuff tossed on the front lawn by his mom. She came around, fortunately, but how sad that she would do this to her own child in the first place.

[Spectral Music]

180. I know. It's amazing what parents will do.

I know a girl whose parents just tossed her out when she got pregnant. She ended up living with an aunt until her crazy dad calmed down.

[OwnedByFerrets]

183. Great Post!!

[chrisa]

184. This country's treatment toward homosexuals and minorities is disgusting and embarassing...

We should be ashamed of ourselves and our government.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

191. Gays are blamed

many people will find a way to blame a gay person even if that person is innocent.

Gays are blamed for setting fire to churches etc.

[Spectral Music]

210. Gays are blamed BEFORE anything is done: like child molestation

We can lose our jobs as teachers, for example, because of peoples' fears that we will molest their children. The fact that gays adult sex is not child molestation doesn't matter.

Some days, I'd rather be accused of burning down a church.

[MichiganVote]

194. One point for your consideration,

I was raised in a strict catholic home with the whole forced church / school thing. My husband was raised in a strict Baptist home with the whole hell and damnation thing.

We were both told that our "sins" were an abomination and that we were going to die and go to hell. In fact most of the crazy nuns had vivid descriptions of hell which were scary as well...hell.

I'm sorry you've been told these things. No children should have that, no adults either. But we heard the same messages when we were kids that you did. Needless to say, we don't attend any church as adults. Enough was enough.

So, you're not alone on that front. We get it.

[JohnnieGordon]

199. Thanks for providing some very much needed balance on this..K&R

[Jester Messiah]

201. This "who's the bigger victim" pissing match is getting tiresome. [nt]

[Spectral Music]

208. Not bigger, equal. All we are asking is to be seen as equal.

Re: Prop 8 and the gay community activism:

Actually, the gay community in California wasn't making overtures to anyone until too late. (The Black community isn't unique here.) I don't think the GLBT activists realized they could lose California; but a huge campaign, financed mostly out of state, took the gay community by surprise. California gays have gotten comfortable, and they are used to having a lot of support. Many didn't think about how red of a state California actually is outside its big cities, although those of us who know the churches well could have told them. The commercials supporting Prop 8 were immediate, slick, fear mongering and appealed directly to religious conservatives and people with children. The commercials against Prop 8 were late in coming and anemic at best.

Even so, the white community voted against Prop 8, the Hispanic community split in half. And all this with very little activism done around the Proposition itself outside of TV commercials. Homophobia in the Hispanic community is just as high as in the Black community and the majority of California Hispanics are Catholics, so the fact that their vote was not as polarized as the Black vote was surprising. The big surprise was, in fact, the Black vote.

So to say that the GLBT community didn't directly court the Black vote is probably true--they didn't really court anyone's vote. The shocking thing is that almost half of Hispanics were able to see why Prop 8 was wrong, but that less than a third of Blacks were. Why?

Now, I agree with you that the GLBT community has a lot of work to do with the Black community, but it's not just our responsibility. Somewhere along the line, the Black community leaders need to stand up and lead on this issue. Can you imagine if Jesse Jackson had come to California and had made personal appeals to the Black community here to vote NO on 8? And while I understand Obama's wanting to stay out of the Prop 8 politics, is it possible that his choice of Donnie McClurkin acutally gave tacit support to Blacks wanting to vote against Prop 8?

[stillcool]

203. I had no family to be rejected from..

so what does that make me, on your suffering meter? Funny how my friends and I don't see it necessary to quantify our emotional pain. The narrative is always unique, but the scale of pain inflicted is not measured by label.

[jeffrey_X]

204. Can you be perceived as black?

eom

[Spectral Music]

207. Me?

Or is this a general question?