A liberal Christian's perspective on the Warren thing

[Recursion]

I'm an elder at an Open And Affirming Presbyterian church. A few definitions for those unfamiliar:

"Open and affirming" means we don't just "let gays in" but acknowledge they are children of God whose lives, loves, and happiness are entirely important to God and profess that being gay is not in any way sinful. Our minister sanctifies homosexual marriages as well as heterosexual marriages. I skip three nearer churches to go 4 Boston miles to an open and affirming church three times a week (worship, the youth group I volunteer with, and session meetings).

"Elder" sounds more impressive than it is. Presbyterian and reformed churches are run by the local congregations; the session of elders is just anybody who can be conned into coming in and doing the daily business of the church. I know there is a lot of hostility against Christianity on this board, and I'll be the first to say the Church has earned it and then some. We partner with a lot of churches, most of whom are not open and affirming -- not remotely. One of them is a Catholic church in South Boston.

Yeah. South Boston Catholics. If you think Mark Wahlberg or Ben Affleck were making that stuff up, you're wrong. Most of them are homophobic. Incredibly so. And racist. And anti-immigrant (despite the fact that their grandparents were called Micks when they came off the boat).

Why in hell would we partner with this church?

Because they don't have money to keep their boiler running in the winter. People attend mass in three layers of clothing. But they do a meal 3 nights a week for anyone who wants to come eat, and no one is turned away for any reason.

They're wrong about my LGBT neighbors. As an American I can say Constitutionally they're wrong. As a Christian I can say they are wrong in denying God's love to those who happen to be gay. But in the end, I'm not the one giving up heat in order to feed the hungry (even the gay hungry); they are. This doesn't excuse how they are hurting LGBT people. But nothing excuses the evil stuff I do either.

Now, to Warren.

A lot of us on the Christian Left have been watching him for a while. We have no illusions of "converting" him. He's really, really conservative. He's actually more conservative than a lot of fundamentalists. (If any one cares, theologically, Warren is not a fundamentalist, that's a separate movement from his, and he represents a Right-wing analogy of the generational transfer Obama represents to those of us on the Left.) He's wrong about a great many things, which is natural (I am also), but what's worse is that his rhetoric is needlessly hurtful about many things too.

I hope Rick can understand how much the things he has said have hurt our LGBT brothers and sisters, and I hope he will come one day to realize that "marriage" before God means a lot more than "one man one woman". His church has removed some of the more hurtful language from their website. The cynical response is that they didn't want any heat; I'm a cynical guy but Warren makes me pause: I'd at least ask us to consider the possibility that he's realized what they said was causing people pain, and they hadn't realized it before. (Before anyone says it's impossible: look at the threads over the past few weeks. Half of DU didn't realize what words hurt people's feelings. This isn't as easy as we all wish it were.)

Back to the point:

Rick Warren has a prejudice against homosexuals and women. There simply is no denying that. I hope and pray he can overcome it. Until he does, I'll have to accept the fact that despite that glaring, awful flaw, he has been a tireless and passionate advocate for the poor, for the sick, and for those in the third world (who are all too often both poor and sick and gay and women).

Now here's the thing. Warren has taken a lot lot lot more heat for talking to Obama than Obama will ever take for talking to Warren. I've seen several posts saying "Why can't Warren reach out to us instead?". The fact is, he has, and has been doing so for several years.

We elected a President who promised to reach out to "the other side". The "other side" is homophobic, misogynistic, and racist for the most part. But "they" give to charities at a greater rate than "we" do. They are wrong and misguided but not evil, and shutting "them" out serves no purpose.

They are wrong but that does not make them bad people. Rick Warren has risked his career several times over to reach out to us about poverty, climate change, and health care: issues we agree with him on. He is taking a lot of flack from his "base" to go to the inauguration.

As a nation we need to talk. This is the first step of that, but part of that is recognizing that people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality are wrong but are not evil for that discomfort. I wish nobody were prejudiced against homosexuals but the fact is a lot of people are and we're not going to make it go away by wishing it were not so.

Look, I'm not telling my LGBT brothers and sisters not to be angry. You have every right to be angry. For that matter, you should have been a shitload more angry than you have been for the past 30 or so years (not assigning blame, just amazed at your forbearance). 2008 was a kick in the teeth for LGBT America just when everybody else seemed to be doing better. Don't think I don't see and empathize with that.

But Warren is the least of your worries. Warren is more than happy with a legal civil union that offers identical benefits to marriage (yes, I agree that's not enough -- but think about how many light years ahead of his compatriots that view is).

Obama wants Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration. Rick Warren has a lot of flaws and has done a lot of good things. I think it would be good to have a flawed activist speak. I pray I am not remembered for my flaws; they are legion.

I'm sorry if I've hurt the feelings of anyone. I really really didn't mean to. I just want to give a perspective that maybe some people on DU hadn't seen before.

Peace all

[boppers]

1. Thanks for offering your perspective.

Interesting read.

[AntiFascist]

2. As I've said before...

reaching out to Warren and having discussions with him is all very fine. If Obama wanted to create some sort of council of faiths to discuss these issues, then including Warren's church should be his prerogative as well.

Elevating Warren to a position of honor which validates his beliefs, however, is disgusting and I will continue to voice this until Warren publicly takes back everything he has said or published against gays and lesbians (I won't hold my breath).

[polichick]

3. delete - wrong place

[rhett o rick]

31. My sentiments exactly. nm

[polichick]

4. Nice post! What do you think about Warren and Dominionism??

[Recursion]

10. He's not a Dominionist

What were you thinking of?

[polichick]

11. There's a lot of online discussion/writing about this...

Here's one article (scroll down to the Warren part):

http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm

[glitch]

33. Are you sure about that?

Please read Polichick's link.

[WillParkinson]

5. Depends on how you define "evil"...

–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

Let's see....he's harmful - spreading BS about gays and lesbians.
According to your definition it seems like he's morally wrong.
He's helped to cause gays and lesbians to suffer in California by spewing untruths (which could also qualify as wicked)

So I'd say by these definitions he might actually fit that bill.

You say Warren is "more than happy with a legal civil union that offers identical benefits to marriage...from whence did this come? I've never seen it.

[Solon]

6. From what I heard of Warren's activism on poverty and AIDS, it seems like there are ideological

strings attached that make it not nearly as good as some would assume.

[polichick]

15. Check out what this article says about him (scroll down)...

http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm

[Solon]

17. My biggest problem with Rick Warren is that his ideology kills...

Whether its his slavish support for abstinence only education in Africa as a way to prevent AIDS, which doesn't work, and outright kills people with lies. To his homophobic rhetoric, which can inspire people to dehumanize GLBT people to such an extent, they will kill them. I really think this man is evil.

[merwin]

7. From your lips to God's ears

At my presbyterian church in the seattle area, the pastor is damn near a socialist... every church is different, and every member is different. All of that is secondary to doing what is right and helping those who need help any way you can, even if they are misguided.

As my pastor says, the best way to introduce someone to God's love is not to shove your religion down their throat, but to live as God wants you to live, be available to answer questions, and be a friend.

[gratefultobelib]

8. Thank you. I need all the help I can get trying to understand how Warren came to be chosen.

[Sebastian Doyle]

9. I don't intend to hijack your thread here, but.....

Your reference to the local Catholic church and their broken boiler really illustrates what's wrong with huge hierarchical churches. I can't say whether or not the local Archdiocese would have the money to fix the heat or not, but I know damn well the Vatican does. In fact, they have enough wealth stored up to fix every heater in every church on the planet, and not just the Catholic ones. And needless to say, Jesus certainly wouldn't be too cool with people freezing in His house.

To bring this back on topic, the other bad thing about religious hierarchies is that one man makes the rules for thousands or even millions of people. And in the case of the current Pope, his beliefs might be far to the extreme right of what many church members actually believe. In the case of the Catholic church, you also have that "infallibility" rule which treats the Pope's words as if they came from God Himself.

[merwin]

22. most flavors of christianity are run by the christians at the churches.

most of them have a democratic system of governing.

the catholic church does not speak for the rest of us :)

[madeline_con]

12. Allow me to retort...

Thank you, dmesg, for your perspective on this debacle.


I don't think it's the least bit cynical to believe Warren removed his vile hate speech from his site to avoid taking heat. It would be naive to think it was a mere coincidence after the clamour that arose on the internet over it. To think he meant to all along, and just hadn't gotten around to it until a month before the inauguration, coupled with the endless discussion of his homophobic views, is idiotic.

Warren is not "uncomfortable with homosexuality'. He's homophobic; he condemns gays and gay marriage and likens it to pedophilia. He is only "more than happy with a legal civil union that offers identical benefits to marriage" depending on which video you watch. He is NOT "light years ahead of his compatriots" at all. He is not "the least of our worries." He's another incarnation of the fear-based hate mongers who put the Bush cabal in the White House and kept this country from making advances in science and technology. This to the glee of those groups who hasten the destruction of the planet, awaiting a fictitious rapture they are too stupid to realize is a myth perpetuated by the sociopath LeHaye.

You may split hairs if you wish, but Warren is no fresh face on the scene. He is from the old school of Inquisitors, heretics, witch hunters, Evangelicals, Dominionists or whatever other nomme du jour they wish to use to deflect the light from shining too brightly on their hateful agenda in their pursuit of brainwashing the weak minded.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I felt duty bound to give my own perspective.

spell edit

[Christian30]

13. I'm gay...

and appreciate your perspective. I think you're close to how I'm feeling about this in general. I am angry that it's at the inauguration. I also think this is surprising tone-deaf on Obama's part, given the sacking the LGBT community took on Election Day. That said, I'm holding on to a (non-Messianic) hope that this is part of a larger calculation on Obama's part to draw those like Warren closer, so they find it harder to object to Obama's pro-gay initiatives, e.g. ENDA, Hate crimes.

[supernova]

14. KnR from a fellow Presby on hold

I actually left my NOT O&A congregation over our church's official treatment of our fellow LGBT human beings. I have several options, don't know where I will wind up next. But the local O&A congregation is a possibility.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

[RollWithIt]

16. About Catholics, as a Catholic, this caught my eye from your post....

Because they don't have money to keep their boiler running in the winter. People attend mass in three layers of clothing. But they do a meal 3 nights a week for anyone who wants to come eat, and no one is turned away for any reason.

As a teenager I volunteered at the 5 day night a week version we had in Akron Ohio. Our priest lived in a 1 bedroom apartment in the worst neighborhood you could possibly imagine. Yet five nights a week he managed to raise enough money to feed thousands.

Ya, Catholicism has had its gigantically immoral faults, but the Catholic bashing on DU does depress me sometimes.



EDIT: May I add that Obama worked for a Catholic organization in Chicago when he was a "community organizer." His work was invaluable.

[Solon]

18. As a man raised a Catholic, I have no problem with Catholic charitable works...

as long as they keep their ideologies at the door. They've done great damage to places like Africa, spreading lies about condoms and the benefits of contraception. But I'm opposed to the Church, not its laity.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. I am so tempted by postings like this

to respond with snarky satire, redirecting Warren's vicious rhetoric toward, in this case Presbyterians. But attacking groups of people with verbal violence is not my 'flaw'. And it is also, kind OP, not something that has been done to you. I hope it never is. I hope you never have to listen to a man like Warren discribe your beloved people as criminals and reprobates, pedophiles and rapists. I hope it is never your child you hear so described, in the public square, in the name of God Almighty. And if it is ever your fate to endure such ridicule, I hope those who are from the same group as the one who speaks slander does not come to you and smugly tell you to forgive when no wrong has been admitted. Rick is your brother in Christ. You forgive him. And if I wish to, that is not your business, nor is it his. If Rick wishes to apologize and make some show of public repentance for his vulgar and attacking diatribes, I will most kindly listen and act accordingly with great mercy. But his apology must be full and public, as were his attacks.

And you know, the Vatican is richer than the God they claim to serve. Why do they allow their churches to be without basic services. They have skeletons of Popes on display at the Vatican wearing jewels the size of golf balls. The priorities seem very much out of whack. They ought to petition Ratzinger.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[rasputin1952]

20. There comes a time when people have to drop the hate...

regardless of where it comes from.

I can dislike Warren for a few things, but I don't hate the man.

Point is, there is good in almost everyone, there are also flaws. For every "bad" priest, there are hundreds that do great things every day. For every "bad" pastor, there are hundreds that do good for many others. For every "bad" mullah, there are hundreds that do good and would not think of harming others.

Those that "get the press" are the one's who go the controversial route, they do little good for those around them, or the religion they profess they believe in.

Long ago, I found out that quietly going about doing what good I can was far better than creating an atmosphere of hate and division. I learned that I cannot condemn bigotry, hatred and hypocrisy if I possessed any of those traits. What I have seen on DU lately, is a situation where people are demanding to be heard, which is fine, but at the same time, the message is one of hatred as opposed to trying to explain just where one stands.

No one has ever won a convert by attacking them, no one has ever been able to stand up to hypocrisy, while being a hypocrite. One cannot condemn bigotry in one case, while showing themselves to be a bigot.

The 1 1/2-2 minute dialog from Warren will be the usual request for a blessing for the new president, the country, etc. There will no mention of sexual preference, abortion or any other "hotbutton" issue. It will be generic, they always are.

Warren's personal views are his own, even though he preaches things I discount, he speaks to his church, not me. I will not fight hate with hate, I will not fall into that trap. I will go out, as I always have, and fight the Rights of people calmly and without malice. Discussion, not arguments win the hearts and minds of those who will listen, those who will not listen do little more than decide to live in darkness, and no amount of light will pierce that darkness until the individual decides it is time.

When i want to feel good, I do a random act of kindness...it works wonders.

[AntiFascist]

23. You are certainly entitled to your opinion...

but my opinion on Warren is different. I don't necessarilly want to "win him over". I think it is much better to hold him up to the light and examine exactly what it is that feeds his beliefs and his agenda. If he suddenly "converts" to our side then I may choose to remain quiet, but privately I will still consider him a slime (not a nice word, I know) because his agenda continues to live veiled by his love for the gays.

[rasputin1952]

25. I have no problem holding him "up to the light", it is one of

the best ways to combat bigotry.

My point is that holding him up to the light, does not mean he needs to be cursed, damned or pilloried. People that are attacked will attack back, calmly bringing out the truth is the most powerful weapon people possess. Anyone can argue, few can get a message out calmly, but it works far better.

Warren should be held accountable for his views, few, if any are asking why he feels the way he does, making him explain his stances is the route best taken. I won't accept, "the Bible says so" either, it doesn't. In fact, most of the Gospels are about understanding, inclusion, forgiveness, love and combating hypocrisy. Paul comes up w/a couple of things, but Paul is secondary in the religion...Christianity is a good religion, people have messed it up.

[AntiFascist]

29. I agree...

and the reason I would hold him up to the light is because I feel that much of the Religious Right's agenda is blatantly anti-Christian. The fact that they consider liberal theologians to be nothing more than Marxists keys into this deeper problem. Look at at how liberal nuns and priests in South America have been persecuted and murdered by right-wing elements supported by the very same church. There is a schism in these churches, but it needs to be carefully exposed before any sort of healing can start to take place.

[mondo joe]

28. It's not about hate. It's about rights. And it's naive to think it's just about a 2 minute

invocation (which is not, by the way, a "dialog").

[IsItJustMe]

30. I agree with your post whole heartedly. Just look at the so called wars we have had in this country

War on poverty, war on drugs, etc. None of them work. What he concentrate expands.

I would rather be for gay marriage than opposed to people who are against it.

When you hate the hate, you become the hate.

[glitch]

34. and not invite "haters" to do invocations at inaugurations.

Exactly how is legitimizing "haters" dropping the hate?

[mondo joe]

26. I'm not religious. I don't care about squirrely ideas about "bad people" or even "hate".

I care about law, and rights.

And he is definitely on the wrong side.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

27. I don't usually say this about Christians but

I respect you and your post.

[glitch]

32. Warren is also a Christian Dominionist, putting him in direct conflict with our Democratic Republic

To me this means he should not be invited to our political events or receive our tax monies to pay for advancing his agenda.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

35. I can get down with that. Thanks for sharing. I used to belong to a Southern Baptist Church

that is progressive. Yes, I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it's true. We accepted gays and yes, we had a female associate pastor. You can imagine what happen with the Southern Baptist Convention. They stripped us of funding. They wouldn't acknowledge us because we had a female pastor. Our church was located on a public campus and we attempted to coordinate with the Southern Baptist student groups, but when they learned that we invited gays and had a female pastor, our Senior Pastor was no longer invited to pray with the football and basketball teams before the games. Rather than take our anger and frustration out on those who are marginalized--gays/lesbians and women--we decided instead to say FUCK 'EM and banded together with the progressive Baptists groups, such as the American Baptist Convention and the Alliance of Baptist Congregation, both groups are unaffiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, and they, too were marginalized because they accepted blacks, women in the clergy and invited gays/lesbians to worship open and participate fully in the church community.

There are progressive stalwarts in the Christian community and other communities of faith who are brave souls and do not tolerate bigotry in any form. Sadly these brave souls have been ignored and silenced.

I wished that Obama would have invited Jim Wallis, but I am thrilled that at least Rev. Lowery will be there.

[HamdenRice]

36. Thank you for that "grown up", sober, informative perspective! KRNT!