Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait what about Bill "It's a choice" Richardson?

[LoZoccolo]

You remember that, right? He was at a gay debate for the primary candidates (Oh please this is not about the primaries alright? That part is tangential. I am not bringing up the primaries again. Come on.) and said that he believed homosexuality was "a choice". And he's the next Commerce Secretary. He's part of Obama's cabinet and junk. Why isn't anyone going after him?

It's easy: the protest of Warren at this time is a political tactic. Certain activists have managed to get other activists all running in the same direction on this one and don't want to lose the momentum. I'm not disparaging that aspect of it. But be honest and admit that it's a political tactic, and other people who disagree with you may be advocating another political tactic, possibly in service of the same agenda or same strategy. It may have nothing to do with disagreeing with you on the fundamental issue, just like your non-protest of Richardson does not show complacency with his views.

Of course people are going to say that that's not so, even if they know it's true, and that's another political tactic. You come to a point when you start to see more and more that much human interaction is in large part a game of manipulation.

[AllentownJake]

1. Fail

Bill Richardson never called anyone a child molester.

[racaulk]

2. Well, that should blow a hole into the "it's just a two minute prayer, that's it" argument. n/t

[lapfog_1]

3. Pretty sure Bill believes the earth is more than 5000 years old.

And believes in science, stem cell research, logic and reason.

[LoZoccolo]

5. So now this is about geology?

:crazy:

I need to spend more time on DU.

[lapfog_1]

11. Oh, do you think dinosaurs were the pets of the early Christians?

I'm opposed to Warren giving the invocation BECAUSE he is an anti-science bigot. And promotes those ideas to his idiot followers. Our President shouldn't give him the time of day (personal belief) much less a podium to speak from at the inauguration. But, again, if Obama invites him over to have lunch, I really don't give a damn.

[LoZoccolo]

13. You are approaching it from a different viewpoint then and the OP is not addressed to you. n/t

[lapfog_1]

18. Oh, pardon the hell out of me for having an opinion.

You seem to have a huge problem with LGBTers. You start threads on this almost hourly, like you can't STAND IT that the LGBT community is upset with Obama.

[LoZoccolo]

21. Not true.

If you go back through my threads you will find that I have acted cantankerously about numerous other issues as well. The common denominator, though, is usually strategy. And tactics. I have very different views about these things than most people whose idea of activism is complaining about things on a message board on the Internet.

[lapfog_1]

24. Odd, since that's all you seem to do.

"I have very different views about these things than most people whose idea of activism is complaining about things on a message board on the Internet."

I, on the other hand, have done a lot more than that on this topic.

But I haven't started any threads in DU on it. Not one.

[JoFerret]

4. Is Richardson leading the prayers at the inaugural now?

(Stop mixing apples and oranges. Yes - Richardson is backward on gay issues and may even be homophobic. But he is not an out-out bigot.)

Send a message to the Obama team:

I envision an America where all citizens have equal rights. That President-elect Obama has chosen Rick Warren of Saddleback Church, a strong proponent of California's Proposition 8, to give the inaugural invocation sends a message to gay and lesbian Americans that is no different than that sent by political speech-making from the site of Bob Jones University. I implore President-elect Obama and his team to reconsider this awful choice.

[LoZoccolo]

7. Ummmmmmmm noooooooo...

But isn't he "endorsing" Bill Richardson's views? He's certainly not punishing him for it.

[alwysdrunk]

28. So you a really saying the prayer is more important than the cabinet?

The two minute prayer is more important that the four year term? Really?

Also, how is he not a bigot? I've been told over and over that anyone who supports civil unions or doesn't equate sexual orientation discrimination with racial discrimination is an aou and out bigot no expectation. That's before getting to the issue of people who don't share their view but still deal with them, most of the time., they are bigots too.

I'm going to have to call the gay police squad on you.

[JoFerret]

40. Hello

dray stunk

[crappyjazz]

6. Uber Fail

[LoZoccolo]

12. You still have to explain why Richardson denies teh gay and doesn't afraid of anything. n/t

[crappyjazz]

26. Come again?

Didn't understand your q

[LoZoccolo]

29. Never mind; it's meme-speak.

You posted a picture from 4chan so I thought you'd get it.

[jonnyblitz]

8. well it's obvious Obama fans don't handle criticism of him well!

it seems to be to the point of requiring medication. :crazy:

[patrice]

9. Doesn't matter whether it's a choice or not to me.

Not all Homosexuality is 51-100% pre-determined by biology.

If you're not harming or taking advantage of anyone, I don't care about your choices.

[polichick]

10. Richardson doesn't claim to be a spiritual leader.

[Sebastian Doyle]

14. How many fucking times do I need to post this........

For more information:
[e-mail]; 215-732-7375
Malcolm Lazin, Executive Director

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - December 3, 2007

GOVERNOR BILL RICHARDSON TO RECEIVE
EQUALITY FORUM’S 2008 INTERNATIONAL ROLE MODEL AWARD

Wachovia Corporation to receive 2008 International Business Leadership Award

PHILADELPHIA, PA—Equality Forum, a national and international GLBT civil rights organization, announced that New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson will receive its 13th annual International Role Model Award, and that Wachovia Corporation will receive its 2008 International Business Leadership Award. The awards will be presented at the International Equality Dinner at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia on Saturday, May 3 during Equality Forum 2008.

As Governor of New Mexico Richardson has expanded anti-discrimination laws to include sexual orientation and gender identity; signed into law the state’s first hate crimes legislation for acts including those based on sexual orientation and gender identity; provided health insurance for domestic partnerships; signed the Billy Griego HIV and AIDS Act, which was designed to ensure that consumers are the focus of the funding and services provided in all the state's HIV and AIDS cases; and created the state’s HIV and AIDS Policy Commission charged with reviewing and making recommendations on state HIV and AIDS policies. His Presidential campaign platform includes the promise to end “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and to name his Vice-President as the Chair of the HIV/AIDS Commission.

“Throughout his career in public service, Governor Richardson has been a strong supporter and friend of the GLBT community. Governor Richardson has repeatedly used his political standing to champion GLBT civil rights,” stated Malcolm Lazin, Executive Director of Equality Forum.

Prior International Role Model recipients include former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien, Martina Navratilova, Phil Donahue, MTV, Chinese Gay Pioneer Zhou Dan, among others. The International Business Leadership Award has been previously awarded to Comcast, IBM, M.A.C Cosmetics, among others.

“Wachovia has been at the vanguard of FORTUNE 500 Companies in providing workplace equality and in its support of GLBT organizations,” said Lazin.

Pennsylvania Governor Edward Rendell is the Honorary Dinner Chair. John Alchin, EVP and Co-CFO of Comcast Corporation serves as the Dinner Chair.

Equality Forum presents the largest annual national and international GLBT civil rights forum. Equality Forum 2008, its 16th year, will be April 28 to May 4 in Philadelphia. There is no registration fee and all substantive programs are free.
Tickets for the International Equality Dinner will be available in mid-January at www.equalityforum.com. Sponsorship opportunities are available.

ABOUT EQUALITY FORUM

Equality Forum is a national and international GLBT civil rights organization with an educational focus. Equality Forum coordinates GLBT History Month, produces documentary films, undertakes high impact initiatives and presents the largest annual national and international GLBT civil rights forum. www.equalityforum.com

Richardson used a horrible choice of words at the LOGO/HRC debate, and knew immediately that he had done so. But his actual record proves he's no homophobe, and is the polar opposite of Prick Warren when it comes to LGBT civil rights.

[LoZoccolo]

19. It doesn't matter; he endorsed a view in common with all anti-gay bigots...

...in a public forum. It doesn't matter what else he did! Just like it doesn't matter that Rick Warren is probably one of the few evangelical Christian leaders talking about global warming or some other things that fall outside of a right-wing agenda, right?

[chascarrillo]

23. He misspoke and immediately retracted an apologized for it.

Warren and Obama? They ain't changing a thing.

[jberryhill]

15. He is representing GOD? Where?

Richardson is not being held up as a Man of God, either.

God doesn't hate or exclude. Warren does.

[NoPasaran]

35. Now Warren is representing God?

Who elected him Pope?

[jberryhill]

41. He has been invited to invoke the presence and blessing of God upon the inauguration

Give it a rest.

[DJ13]

16. Democratic cannibalism aint pretty

[polichick]

20. What ain't pretty is watching Dem leaders toss Dem values aside for political gain.

[Gman]

17. I don't know which is worse

purism or picking and choosing. They both have their own detrimental effects.

[LeftCoast]

22. Bill Richardson may have some moronic ideas, but he wasn't leading the Prop 8 movement either

Some empathy on the part of those of you who want us all to shut up about this would go a long way toward easing tensions here.

Being told our anger is silly or hypocritical only makes us more angry. If that's your intention, you're doing a great job.

[LoZoccolo]

25. I don't think I've ever said anything about being angry. n/t

[patrice]

30. Just as a point of clarification: Are you claiming that 100% of Homosexuality

is caused by factors the majority of which are biological?

Or - Is this a definition of Homosexuality that goes something (somewhat imperfectly) like this: ONLY those whose homosexual behaviors are caused by factors the majority of which are biological are Homosexuals . . . ?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

33. Jumping in here, but environment and nurture must be separated

We know that gender physiology, gender brain architecture, gender identification and gender attraction are formed at different periods of fetal development and are actuated to a large degree by hormonal events in the mother.

So a lot of elements of gender and orientation are not genetic in that they are affected by environment. But the environment is the womb.

Since there are a lot of non-genetic factors that are still immutable traits long before a child is born a person can be "born gay" without invoking genetics at all.

In the big picture, since we have no fixed definition of gay it's impossible to be rigorous.

But I am confident that most gay people are born with a predisposition to be gay, though some of them probably suppress their nature and have really lackluster marriages and 'normal' lives.

If society places less pressure on gay-disposed people to subvert their nature then a gay-friendlier world will have more openly gay people, and it will appear that society is making people gay. But it's probably more that society is simply repressing fewer people into acting against their nature.

[patrice]

39. I agree that they have to be separated to be identified.

(And that we don't have a definition of gay.)

But the processes that separate nature and nurture and thus identify which is which are processes that look at how they interact to produce change, i.e. what their relationships are.

From the perspective of an admittedly idealistic portrait of empirical science:

If we had an unlimited and, yet, truly representative sample of the population;
And if we had valid and reliable tests that identified all (!!!) of the factors (nature and nurture) affecting the behaviors,
Wouldn't we come up with statements something like: When this configuration of nature has a value/tendency of x, in relationship with this configuration of nurture at a value/tendency of y, you will get behavior z in n% of the population.

I know it's oversimplified, but the Science isn't anywhere near being able to do anything about the complexity of this situation yet, so I think in terms of a spectrum, with identified pre-determining factors on one end and identified choice factors on the other, that describes a set of Gay behaviors that our factors produce. No value in the spectrum is ever separated from the other values, but you would have individuals who score near the extremes: some strongly influenced by pre-determining Nature, with weak Choice elements; some strongly influenced by Choice with weak Nature elements.

And the basic assumptions of the descriptive statistics upon which most of our shared knowledge is based say that IF you did have that unlimited representative sample, eventually your data will taken on (please don't flame me!) a bell shaped curve, with relatively few people/behaviors in the extremes (few high Nature and few high Choice) and most behaviors clustered around the middle, i.e. for most of our Gay sample, the set of Gay behaviors is produced by Choice:Nature relationships of, say, 50:50 to 60:40/40:60?

Personally, I don't care. I care about how people treat one another and how power is used. The reason I care about these things is because I think these are what have the most effect upon real Freedom.

[Solon]

27. If I remember correctly, he was immediately slammed for it, here on DU and elsewhere, until he...

retracted what he said, and said he was wrong.

Indeed, if I remember properly, plenty of DUers told people to get over it, "it doesn't change a thing" etc. over what he said. It makes me wonder...

[patrice]

31. I think there are few who really understand the Nature:Nurture issues. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

32. You seem to be hostile to the very idea of honest disagreement

It's not a conspiracy when someone disagrees with you.

Gay people know that Bill Richardson had a clumsy moment and that Rick Warren would ultimately like their kind eliminated from the human race via re-education.

It's not a hard difference to spot.

[Bobbie Jo]

34. Pot=Kettle=Black, etc...nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

36. I accept that your disagreement is probably honest, but God it's stupid.

I would never say the OP is pretending to be a bigot for some larger purpose. I accept that his viewpoint is--however hostie, inane, thoughtless or bigoted--genuine rather than part of a plot.

He (or she), however, cannot seem to conceive that anyone is upset about Warren except as part of an actual conspiracy to injure Obama.

This despite the fact that many of us knew a lot about Rick Warren before ever knowing Barack Obama existed.

Maybe my long-standing antipathy to gay-cure bigots was a psychic anticipation that Obama would be president someday.

[Bobbie Jo]

37. "Stupid" is not seeing the utter irony of your post.

[Beacool]

38. Ahhhhh yes, Richardson........

Et tu, Brutus?

x(