Learning to talk to each other

[Jennicut]

Boy,I don't even know where to start. I understand many here are angry/disappointed with Obama right now and so am I. I don't get his decision at all on Rick Warren and there is no excuse for it. However, I don't understand some of the shouting matches here either. If someone here is not strong enough on gay rights then yelling at them will not change their minds. Asking why they believe civil unions should not be offensive to gays instead of bashing them for having that idea is an example. If that person chooses not to change fine, but yelling at them, calling them names will not work. The same is true for those of us who try to tell anyone here who is gay to get over it. We need to understand how hurtful this is for them as well. Name calling will not work here either.

Look, I grew up with Republican parents. I shouted at my Dad and he shouted back at me many, many times. It never got either one of us anywhere except more angry. Now I try to be more calm and ask his opinion rather then just yelling. We don't usually agree, but I come away feeling much better after I state my view. There is no hatred, we love each other, we are family. I wish my Dad was more liberal like me. I will never stop trying but I know that shouting, getting angry will not work on him. DU is a sort of family, which may be corny but sort of true. We all have nuances of opinions out there but one thing we DO have is each other and I hate seeing some of the back and forth at each other the last few days here. I don't think anyone should be told to get over it or someone else should be told they are a bigot if they are trying to still understand why Obama chose Warren for this invocation. I think we need to talk with each other instead of AT each other.

I don't know, maybe none of what I said makes sense. I just needed to post it.

[ulysses]

1. again, noble idea

but a little problematic while those with whom you propose to talk are still sharpening their pitchforks.

[Jennicut]

2. Maybe.

But perhaps people just get defensive when they feel they are being attacked. Maybe if things were brought down a few notches it would not feel that way. However, I don't think that anyone should be told to suck it up or get over it. Many people are hurt.

[ulysses]

3. .

Maybe if things were brought down a few notches it would not feel that way.

Or maybe if people weren't actually being attacked, it wouldn't feel that way. Hatred and marginalization are what they are no matter how they're expressed.

[Bluebear]

4. Fundies say we're going to hell. There is no "talking" to them, noble as it sounds

They want us unpartnered, uninsured, a lot of them want us dead.

[Scackmgackm]

5. That's why calling them names...

...or even attempting to speak to them is pointless.

I'm a "Straight Ally." I wasn't before I made gay friends. Prior to that I was neither prejudiced nor aware of the problem. I never called people derogatory, gay names like my friends did to one another, but I didn't say anything to them when they used the words, either.

Then I made gay friends. I started to learn about their struggles. And I decided that I was no longer comfortable with having the words used around me. It took meeting gay people and making gay friends and having gay co-workers to truly have it hit home that gay people are just people. They're no different than anyone else and should be treated no differently than anyone else.

Anti-gay bigots sequester themselves from gay people and gay culture, and that insulation means they never have to rise above rhetoric and the labels they slap on gay people. You cannot cut through that with insults and arguments. The best thing you can do is ignore them and fight them not person-to-person, but through social action and the law.

Essentially, the best you can do is try to change the greater society to make their points of view so odious that they no longer are tolerated spouting it in public.

[Jennicut]

6. Not really talking about fundies, more about fellow Duers here

Fundies, forget it. There is no reasoning, talking to them. That is not what I meant, I needed to be clearer. I was talking more about some people here.

[peace13]

7. Thanks for trying.

I think a lot of angry people have taken DU hostage and there is no getting around it. Anonymous, faceless conversations such as these are too easily sabotaged. Best I can do is stay away and not comment.

[Peacetrain]

8. I know exactly what Jennicut is talking about.. the anger is going sideways

and hitting some innocent people right between the eyes.

[firedupdem]

9. What you said makes sense...good sense..... n/t

[Engineer4Obama]

10. Pretty much how I feel too

:kick: and R

[lunatica]

11. The anger needs an outlet whether it's pleasant or not

Part of listening to the opposition is first allowing the heightened emotional state of rage and anger to dissipate. Shouting at each other serves a purpose by releasing the energy and allowing a settling of sorts which will allow rational thinking to take over. If you will notice, the anger always flares up when something happens that creates the original pain again. Sometimes it aggravates the situation to try to reason with anger while it's in it's full blown eruption. The angry person is very likely to turn on the well wisher because the grip of anger is still strong.

I think that backing off and allowing the anger to take it's course is probably the best way to clear the air. One only needs to have no fear of another's anger, or of one's own for that matter. It's a built in escape valve, like the wolves who seem to want to tear each other apart during tense moments, when in reality they're just letting off steam in order to keep the peace.

Nothing is more inclusive than to allow and even encourage all people to express their thoughts and their pain and their anger. In the Big Picture Scenario, it actually keeps the peace.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. The Native Americans had a saying

that went something like--I will not judge another until I have walked in his moccasins. I would encourage those who are upset about the Warren matter do these things:

1. If a thread starts making you angry, stop reading it. It will, at the very least, lower your blood pressure!

2. After your anger has died down, try to picture yourself as that person on the other side of the issue. It will be hard, and may take several tries to do this. Try and see, if only for an instant, not only their position on this topic but the real emotions behind it. What do they fear? Could this fear be based upon a faulty assumption?

3. Think about your opponent as a person who needs to be educated. Start a positive thread, one that reaches out and allows your opponents to talk about their feelings. Get to know them so that you can understand them better. And realize this won't work with every one of them, but it will work with a substantial number.

These steps won't solve our problems here, but they can settle the dust a bit and we can get back to genuine discussion without so many bruised feelings and stressed out individuals.

[Peacetrain]

14. That is inspiring

:hug:

[Jennicut]

15. Yes, I try to see all points of view

I have had to over the years, with my father. I don't agree with him on much but I don't get angry any more. Anger serves a purpose...anger at Obama for disappointing us. But anger at each other is starting to become kind of useless when its turned into a scapegoating by people with two different points of view.

[LWolf]

13. Actually, I'm not angry at Obama.

He has been true to his stated agenda, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm angry with the Democrats that nominated him. I hold them accountable for putting an unacceptably center-right friend of bigots, fascists, war mongers, and corporatists in office while spurning the left.

[Jennicut]

16. Well, okay. That is fair.

I happen to like some of his other views and decisions (not this Warren one, however). At least that is a discussion!

[cali]

23. What's fair about that post?

Just hate from someone who's made it clear they hate Obama and dems.

[Writer]

I agree. What's happening here is the artificial exclusion of certain extreme opinions...

from the national discourse. There's a reason why, in this nation, we permit neo-Nazi's and KKK members to march: If we squelch certain opinions, stamp them down and drive them underground, they boil and fester, intensifying to the point that when they arise again they're in their ugliest form.

And you're correct about how we address each other. Yes, we think that not permitting gays full rights is inhumane, but calling someone a bigot will not provide much room for discussion! That's puerile behavior that's been too long accepted in this nation. Those people believe the way they do for a reason (whether we disqualify their logic as "BS" or not) - just like every person who opposed civil rights before them. But civil rights did not simply come about because civil rights leaders "shamed" those opposing them into believing otherwise, they came about through civil protest (an open demonstration of why they should have civil rights) and eventually (most importantly) by law. Thurgood Marshall was a pioneer on the Supreme Court and participated in the legal abolishment of Jim Crow and school desegregation.

Harvey Milk, the Stonewall Riots, and other moments in the gay rights movement are also pioneering moments in the push toward equal rights for gays and lesbians. Mayor Gavin Newsome's open defiance of California state law by permitting gay couples to marry in his city was only the beginning of a trend. A few other states followed, and so on. Proposition 8 is only a set-back in a journey toward an inevitability... no one preacher giving a 2 minute prayer having little to nothing to do with gay rights should mean much of anything in light of the onward march of gay civil rights. (Why are so many moralizing this situation and letting it take up their time? He's a CHRISTIAN MINISTER. He's more likely than not going to be AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE. HELLO???)

Anyway, excellent post. K&R.

[Solon]

19. Are you seriously saying this is a free speech issue?

:wtf:

[KittyWampus]

17. You know, in my family sometimes a member needs to vent. That's fine. But when it becomes abusive

that is not so fine.

And family members know exactly what buttons to push to piss off their kin.

I would also like to point out that there really is a very small number of DU'ers who are stoking the outrage constantly.

[Jennicut]

18. Well, its the abusive flame baiting posts I dislike the most

Some posters here know exactly what to post to piss someone else off and its almost like they are looking for a fight. I am not calling to say its any one group, just particular posters.

[WeDidIt]

20. Domionionists like Warren would execute me

Seeking to instill their version of biblical law as the law of the land would result in my execution for failing to believe.

[Jennicut]

22. I was not talking about the fundies, there is no way to talk to them

I was talking about fellow Duers, really.

[JamesA1102]

21. K&R nt