I Had Dinner Last Night With A Fundamentalist Baptist Minister

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I hadn't seen him in over thirty years until early October of 08 when he did the funeral service for my dear mom who died at ninety years old. Since then I have seen him four or five times. I'll bring him and his wife a pie and make a small donation to the church he is semi-retired from. One thing I have noticed about all good preachers is they are great salespeople and he is no exception. As someone who makes their living from sales I don't say that in a pejorative way. If he would have stayed with Prudential instead of leaving when he got his "calling" to become a minister he would be a wealthy man now. However he chose to start a church in a working class area and lives very humbly as his and other minister's salary is largely a function of their congregation's wealth.

He baptized me when I was fifteen years old. He was with my dad when he took his last breath. My mom and I stayed at his home after my dad passed. I was only fourteen at the time. The pastor and the deacons were like surrogate fathers to me. They treated me as if I was their own son. They showed amazing charity and generousity. There is something there that can be channelled into some good.

Their emphasis on moral perfection is amazing. The pastor is a man who never tasted alchohol, never smoked a cigarette, and never bought a lottery ticket. I violated those taboos , except for the lottery because there wasn't one, and many others by the time I was a teen ager...When it came to issues of sexuality they were immovable. To me marriage is simply a union of two people who love one another and want to make that union permanent. I would never have an abortion or counsel that one have one. However I am not going to use the strong arm of the law to compel women to carry to term an unwanted pregnancy. It is unenforceable and would only punish women who have already found themselves in the most difficult of situations.I oppose the death penalty in all cases. I oppose euthanasia. I oppose all unjust wars.

I think if I told the pastor I voted for Barack Obama and never voted for a Republican in my entire life his head would have popped off. Maybe not, he is a perceptive man. He had a McCain-Pailin bumper sticker on his car and in his front yard. I might have asked him how calling your wife a "c--t" is a Christian value. I would never call a woman the b or c word but I digress... President Obama's name did come up and all "Pastor" (that's what I call him) said was "I hope he will be a good president." That's progress...

Even with all that I suspect Pastor makes Rick Warren look like William Sloane Coffin.

[Ian David]

1. Why didn't you bury him under the tomato plants? n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. He Believes What He Believes And I Believe What I Believe

And some of his beliefs have been a source of amazement to me my entire life. Plus cognitive dissonance is part of life. For instance I have many gay Catholic friends who have no problem taking the Sacraments Of The Catholic Church despite the Vatican's condemnation and hostility toward homosexuality.

I try not to hate anybody...It's corrosive...

[Ian David]

4. But by keeping your mouth shut and not disagreeing with him, you're complicit in his bigotry. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Not Really

Because we didn't discuss those topics. I would have had to broach them which I didn't.

As I said, dissonance is part of life. I went to a Satutday night Catholic mass with a woman I know to be gay and I saw her with my own eyes take Communion despite the Church's hostility toward gays.

[Ian David]

9. Apparently, so is cowardice. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Could Have "Beat Him " Up On His Beliefs

But I could have done the same with a priest, rabbi, or inam...I don't see what purpose it would have served.

And we're talking about the man who was with my dad on his death bed until he breathed his last breath.

And there's a larger context...My dad had two heart attacks in the span of about twenty four months, the second of which killed him at fifty eight years old when I was fourteen. My mom and I would have had a hard if not impossible time seeing him in the hospital as he was our only transportation. It was friends, mostly members of the church who took us to see him. In fact when my dad died we spent the night at his home as he was our only transportation...


I'm not deifying him or anybody. I just am saying we are three dimensional figures...If there was a progressive check list I am sure I would fall on the left side of just about every issue and he would fall on the right but we one thing in common; we both try to follow the teachings of Jesus but in our own way...

[Ian David]

15. Still complicit and cowardly. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. When I Was In Grad School At FSU My Friend And Fellow Graduate Student Was A Saudi

Another grad student and I visited him and his wife at his home. She was dressed in conventional Saudi/Muslim garb to avoid the gaze of a man. It wasn't a burka but we couldn't see her face. Should we have told our friend the garb was ridiculous and why does he compel his wife to dress like that? Should we have told him it was ridiculous that Saudi women couldn't drive? Or they have to walk three steps behind their man?

What purpose would it have served?

It reminds me of this young woman I knew who visited Israel and started lecturing the Orthodox rabbis she met in Jerusalem about their sexism and sexual conservatism. This was the time when Orthodox Jews were painting over scantily clad women used in advertisements at bus stops?

It just seems pointless...

[Ian David]

25. Unless your Saudi friend is in a position of power and influence, like a preacher, no. n/t

[phleshdef]

24. So he should start an unprovoked fight with a long time family friend over politics???

Maybe thats how YOU approach differences in life, but thats a really immature approach to say the least.

[Ian David]

26. There are mature ways to not be a coward, and to not be complicit in bigotry.

Just because you, personally, may not have discovered those ways yet does not reflect poorly on me.

[phleshdef]

28. Actually yes it does, your notion here is absolutely disgusting and no way to behave...

I know you are trying to act like a tough guy on the Internet by calling people cowards and such. I disdain such chest beating attitude towards life as it does nothing for no one. I guess my mother taught he the proper way to treat my elders, especially the ones who have been nothing but good to me personally. From reading the OP, the pastor in question didn't even do anything that would warrant any kind of negative or aggressive conversation whatsoever. But hey, if you like to verbally assault your dinner guests just because you know how they might feel about something, go right ahead and continue to be an asshole to people for no common sense reason. Good luck with that.

[Ian David]

29. Your mother sounds like she, too was very good at following orders. n/t

[phleshdef]

30. First you engage in chest beating, now mother bashing, its obvious that you are too immature for...

...any rational discussion. I need say no more, your own posts prove my point for me.

[Ian David]

31. Yo mama is so fat, that Obi Wan Kenobi once said, "That's no moon. That's yo mamma." n/t

[phleshdef]

32. Heh, ok, is that suppose to be an olive branch or something?

[CreekDog]

19. you are complicit in not finding a pastor to argue with

i mean, why didn't you just now?

so, so complicit. why?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. It's OK

One of the speakers at my mom's funeral where the pastor presided was a friend of hers who spoke about her affection for the Democratic party. I think the pastor inferred what my beliefs were...That's why he didn't bring up those topics...


He asked me if I was going to church... I didn't tell him because I haven't found one I am comfortable with...I guess finding a minister is like voting...If you want somebody who agrees with you on everything vote for yourself...That's not feasible and I guess being your own minister isn't either...

I told him I watch the services on tv...He asked me if the tv preacher will come to see me if I'm sick.... That made me chuckle...

[CreekDog]

21. I was posting in jest, sorry. I disagree with Ian where he said you were complicit in bigotry

I have been in perhaps similar situations as you.

Being horrified by what people say (and what they believe) does not mean arguing and denouncing them at every turn. It doesn't work that way. There are times when I've done that but not every time is the right time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Do Wonder What Our Friend Would Do In Our Position

This is a man who has always been nice to me, whom I first met when I was thirteen years old, who my dad loved more than his own brothers...


He just has some very , very conservative beliefs, most of which he doesn't share with me. I don't see the utility of going out of my way to (find) areas of disagreement...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. And It Has Nothing To Do With Rick Warren

I don't think he was a good choice. But Obama is in between a rock and a hard place now...If he rejects Warren he looks weak...If he keeps him he offends folks who have a right to be offended...

Acceptance of gay marriage is still not accepted by most main stream Christians. To me marriage is between two people who love one another, want to remain faithful to one another, and want to make that union permanent. But I am not in the mainstream of Christian thought...

My problem with Warren is that he actively supported Prop 8 bringing attention to himself and it...There are plenty of issues a Christian minister can get involved in...


I would have never chose him but I don't know what I would do if I was in Obama's position having already chosen him...

There are many ministers who are nominally opposed to homosexuality but don't make it their raison d'etre...

Maybe Obams should just add a liberal minister...

[Ian David]

27. Damn. You just pwned me. LOL! n/t

[kstewart33]

2. He sounds like a very good man.

There are so many fine people who are Republicans; I know many of them myself. We simply disagree on some very fundamental issues. That's all.

Thanks for posting.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. As I Said He Is Very Perceptive

On spiritual things we would be quite sympatico... I think when it comes to politics and issues of sexuality there is precious little we would agree upon...I formulated my "world view" a long time ago; none of us perfect...I can be a real idiot at times...But I'll leave it up to God to judge folks, see what's in our hearts, and decide who gets rewarded in this life and the next...


The point of my op is too show we are three dimensional figures...

[rug]

7. Very descriptive. You've given a good portrait.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. The pastors Ive really admired in my life

were the ones who took the passage, "Judge not lest ye be judged" to heart. I know a Baptist minister who had several daughters, all of whom did drugs and lived with boyfriends, stopped going to church. Never once did he condemn them for this, but rather he welcomed them in his home. He never condemned me for my faith, either, and we found common ground in discussing the love of God. The Methodist minister I had while growing up was much the same way--never condemning the teens with whom he worked, but rather always there for us to discuss what we wanted to talk about. He seemed to like it that I was asking questions of spirituality and what it really meant to be a Christian. He said that what mattered was good works--anyone can mouth the "I take Jesus Christ as my personal savior", but it meant nothing if it wasn't followed by actions in accordance to the teachings of Jesus.

[galaxy21]

11. I was friends with a nun once

Very pro life, but we still got a along. I didn't really make a big deal out of being pro choice though.

She was one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet. Although, I never really got into to what she felt about other social issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. When I Went To Church With My Catholic Friend It Was Pro Life Month

The fact that Pro-Life month is in October before the election didn't escape me. The priest was talking about the vigils outside abortion clinics. But he counseled the protesters not to holler at the women or bring their grotesque pictures of fetuses. He said these women were obviously making an agonized decision and didn't need to be harassed. When we were leaving there was a car parked in the church lot with big "Catholics For Obama" painted on the back window...That made me chuckle...

I'm not really speaking to the Rick Warren brouhaha but I don't think it's such a bad thing to find common ground with folks...The GOP uses social issues as wedges...Abortion is never going away as long as there are unwanted pregnancies...Gay folks have been with us since the beginning of time.

[galaxy21]

16. A lot of priests and nuns do good work

Unfotunately, I think the religious right screwed it up and now everyone is painted with the same brush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Before My Mom Passed Away She Went To A Catholic Day Care Center

They were really nice folks. Some of her friends and caregivers there became close friends of mine. I'm not reticent to share my beliefs with people that I am close to and care to know them but they like me just the same...And some of them were quite liberal even when it came to choice; mo matter how they felt about abortion a ban is not only highly, highly unlikely it would also be unworkable and punative; punishing those they most want to save... They realize in this situation laws are not enough; you have to change peoples' hearts...

[localroger]

12. There are a lot of Christians like this man

A lot of them idolize hateful people like Rick Warren who have run a slick sales job on them, but they are not really hateful themselves and are capable of much good. I expect Obama's message to these people will be: I am listening to you. You aren't going to get what you want on abortion or homosexuality, but those issues have been used to manipulate you and together we can do something you probably want more, helping millions of people you've let be hurt because you were distracted by these relatively unimportant things.

If a creep like Warren has millions of followers and you want their ears, then yes you give him a platform (hint: a prayer at the inauguration is not nearly as important as the platform he already has) for the same reason you talk with your enemies (*cough* Iran *cough*) even when you disagree on everything. I knew Obama was going to go after the evangelicals even in the primary, and it bothered me a bit because I'm an atheist. But I know what he's doing and why, and every time I've second-guessed him it has turned out that he was right.

If Obama wants to make progress on universal issues like health care, he needs a consensus that can smash Republican opposition becasue they'll block him with everything at their disposal -- go back and read the memo that was released from 1994 warning Republicans that if they let the Clintons pass any health care plan at all, no matter how friendly to their interests, it would be the end of their Party. They will use everything to stop him, so he needs to go after these constituencies we normally consider lost. I think he is one of the few people who could pull it off, and I'm willing to watch how he plays the game. I already know he is much better at it than I am.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Rick Warren And The Other " T V Preachers" Seem To Be Really Rich

My friend the pastor settled for a barely middle class life despite the opportunity to do much better.If you were a congregant or a friend of his there is nothing he wouldn't do for you. IMHO, he looks at the text in a vacuum as opposed to looking at in its entirety.