My opinion on the Rick Warren thing.

[moriah]

I've resisted posting before. And this may be a very unpopular view.

Is it reasonable and fair that the GLBT community is pissed off about this? Absolutely! Is it reasonable and fair for people to say how they feel about this? Again, absolutely!

I think it's heinous that anyone can legitimately compare gay marriage and child brides/husbands and therefore comparing homosexual relations to pedophilia. And the ONLY justification he can have for that, that they are "both sins according to the Bible", is actually incorrect, there is no minimum age of betrothal or even consent in the Bible. The Jewish Bar/Bat Mitzvah's are not a Biblical creation. Very few Christian denominations specifically mark what they call adulthood. Catholicism to some degree with confirmation, similar in the Episcopal church, etc. Baptists refer to an "age of accountability", but that can be as young as 7 or 8, when they think a child is old enough to be Baptized. But nothing about betrothal or age of consent for sexual relations/marriage.

It's an outrage that anyone has those views.

But compared to, say, Mike Huckabee, or other Baptist ministers in my neck of the woods, Arkansas, Rick Warren is actually somewhat moderate in that he supports domestic partnerships -- the legal rights California has given that aren't called marriage. But that's damning with faint praise.

Change towards civil rights tend to take time. Women were granted the right to vote, but were still discriminated against for a very long time. For blacks in the South, "separate but equal" was at least better than slavery, but that's damning with extremely faint praise. It may have also been a necessary step toward full equality for that region until the change actually occurred in people's minds and hearts instead of just on the lawbooks.

People in California shouldn't have the marriage rights that their constitution gives them taken away. It's heinous and wrong. He's a bigoted asshole.

But ... if Obama working with Rick Warren was designed to be a symbolic showing an ability to negotiate for national recognition of domestic partnerships, especially if we can get the benefits/tax code changes that NEED to be done implemented, I'm willing to very grumpily accept his decision.

It still sucks. Civil rights, HUMAN rights, should not have to be negotiated.

But should be is not always how things are, and while it sucks that it's not the way things are right now and no one should EVER stop working to change that, I do have hope that this awful decision of Obama's has the ability to help gain at least a bit of progress nationally. I hope.

[TomInTib]

1. STOP IT, STOP IT, STOP IT, STOP IT!!!

Stop making sense, for that will win few friends and generate enemies who will hate you forever.

Just stop it.

Level-headed thinking gains no toe-hold, here.

[NYC_SKP]

7. Shit, you beat me to it.

Bastard! :hi:

[IndianaJones]

2. peoples minds in the south were changed by the national guard. no patience was suggested. nt.

[mopinko]

9. people's minds still aren't changed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x251685

the national guard is all in iraq, anyway.

[IndianaJones]

10. by changed I mean forced. nt.

[mopinko]

11. i know what you meant.

i just think you are wrong. it wasn't their minds that were affected.

[firedupdem]

3. Great post...very well thought out and I agree with you. n/t

[Neecy]

4. I'd like to believe that

But if Obama wants to provide civil unions that offer the exact same 1000+ benefits of a legal marriage, do you really think Warren will endorse this? Or push for a sham, the kind of hollow core we've seen from previous CU definitions?

I think you give Warren too much credit.

[moriah]

12. I live in hope. No, not Hope, Arkansas, but .... you get the idea.

The only comparison I can make about the civil union/domestic partnership compromises regarding marriage equality is the "separate but equal" stage the South went through.

It certainly isn't right, it's certainly not good enough. But for people who are living in states that don't give any rights at all -- where in order to have your partner be able to make medical decisions for you you have to have a Durable Power of Attorney For Health Care and hope they read it, where a standard power of attorney is necessary for many of the other things that partners should be able to do for each other (and again, it might not be heeded), where health coverage for your partner is at the whim of the company you work for instead of it being required to be offered, and where you are not only not presumed to be the parent of a child born into the relationship but you cannot adopt a child at all unless you are a heterosexual couple in a marriage recognized by the State... the domestic partnership laws that California has look pretty good to us.

If in regards to national policy a minimum standard can be reached, and then the battle continue on in individual states until the national minimum standard will have more support to be raised.... it's progress. It's still not good enough -- marriage equality means that the marriage is 100% on par with the rest of marriages currently entered into, not (to use another distasteful analogy) 3/5ths of a marriage.

I think Rick Warren is a scumbucket (and if you want to take the s off of that, it's likely true as well) charismatic who is likely fleecing his congregation for a lot more money than his church so proudly spends on HIV-related charitable work or other charity. But I hope that Obama symbolically reaching out to "conservatives" will help at least achieve some national reform even if I want to slap the shit out of the person he chose to reach out towards.

I hope.

I don't really expect it to, and I think he does need to hear how much of a slap in the face this is to his constituents -- but I hope.

[Cha]

5. Rec'd~ This is what I'm going for

now, too..

"But should be is not always how things are, and while it sucks that it's not the way things are right now and no one should EVER stop working to change that, I do have hope that this awful decision of Obama's has the ability to help gain at least a bit of progress nationally. I hope."

That's what it takes, a catalyst. Look at the Perfect Storm it took to get Obama elected in spite of the corporatemediawhores wanting it, otherwise.

[elocs]

6. You may as well give your opinion about Warren since everyone else and their cousin has already.

You may be one of the last ones. Some are on their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th expression of their opinion about Warren. It kind of makes me miss the days of the constant rants about impeachment.

[emilyg]

8. Good post.