The rules, as related to issues involving GLBT people...

[Solon]

From Skinner:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1324374

1. We expect all of our members to support equal rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation. That includes the right to marry.

We are right on this issue, I have no doubt. In 40 years, we are going to look back at opposition to gay marriage as something as bigoted and anachronistic as opposition to interracial marriage.

[Starry Messenger]

1. Kick and rec.

[MADem]

2. Isn't that odd!

The forum supports candidates and elected officials who aren't in step with their own rules!

Only in America, I guess....

Great catch...22!!!!!

I guess Obama wouldn't cut it as a DU member, then. Of course, I think, based on some of the discussions I've seen, that there are a few people here who are "on his team" on this issue.

I'm not one of them.

[Solon]

3. kick back to the top! n/t

[jonnyblitz]

4. this is going to be a *shocker* to those dim bulbs that are

stunned to discover that people think people who are against gay marriage are BIGOTS.

[patrice]

13. ?

sorry, my head is spinning . . . ?

[madfloridian]

5. Recommended.

[cwydro]

6. I support gay marriage.

But apparently because I think all gays people should come out (NOT FORCED OUT), come out of their own accord, I am somehow a bad person.

Funny that.

[MadBadger]

8. No, you said that those in the closet are more of a problem than the anti-gay ministers

You blamed people in the closet for all the problems.

[cwydro]

18. I think people in the closet are the biggest problem.

We have to stand up for our rights.

Yes.

Black folks did not have the option to hide. We cannot compare the two issues until we are all out.

My opinion.

[NorthCarolina]

20. You'd have an awful lot of Married Guys coming out then were that to be the case

n/t

[cwydro]

22. Hmmm.

Perhaps.

[NorthCarolina]

25. No perhaps about it really

Gay chat rooms are LOADED with married men looking to hook-up. Or so I've been told O8)

[cwydro]

29. Kind of sad, that.

ya know?

[musicblind]

7. Kick and Recommend

:kick:

[Shiver]

9. Kicked and recommened

[patrice]

10. I've always wondered how such rules are implemented when all it really takes to oppose

equal rights for all people, especially in an environment characterized by anonymity, is to divide and conquor by WHATEVER means available. I'm certain that the idea of being a double or triple agent isn't anything new on the DU.

[TheWraith]

11. And you're not going to find anyone arguing against that.

However, you seem to have confused "supporting gay marriage" with "If you don't agree with every item of DU exaggerated outrage, you're a bigot."

[Starry Messenger]

12. Well there's this:

Whoops, finally gone. Took about an hour though. A poster asserted that most people agreed that marriage was only between a man and a woman and there needed to be a separate category for gay marriage.

There have been some other rather rancid assertions over the past day or two. A little reminder won't kill anyone anyway. :)

edit: link lead to deleted subthread.

[Solon]

14. There are plenty of people here who only support Civil Unions...

and not just for political expediency's sake either.

[yardwork]

17. I wish I could have a civil union in my state. They're against the law for gay people.

Not to mention not being at all equal to the rights afforded by marriage.

[Solon]

19. I just get really pissed, I mean, one poster actually said that...

Marriage should only be between a man and a woman, because its tradition!

[yardwork]

23. I can think of some other traditions they might not like...

[yardwork]

16. No, I think we're more concerned about threads telling us to move if we don't like it.

Or the threads saying that people only discriminate against gays because of our perverted sexual activities, it's nothing personal. Or the threads saying that we can always pretend to be straight so it's our own fault we're being discriminated against.

My favorite today is the post saying that if we really cared about equal rights, we'd all move to Massachusetts.

Mostly, though, I'm just disheartened by the number of posts - including yours - telling me that I'm stupid and hysterical because I don't agree that inviting Rick Warren to pray Obama into office is a brilliant move. I was actually kind of calm in my expressions about this until 350+ DU posters recommended a thread saying that I should stfu.

[Liberalboy]

15. K&R!

[The Magistrate]

21. This Further Comment By Mr. Skinner, Sir, In That Same Thread, Is Worth Reading As Well

"I have made very clear that there is a difference between how we personaly feel about issues, and what we think the Democratic Party's strategy and approach should be. There is nothing morally wrong or homophobic about a member of DU stating the obvious truth: Gay rights are not popular in large portions of the country, and the party needs to figure out how to deal with it. You are welcome to use this message board to discuss any and all possible political approaches to this issue, including soft-peddaling gay rights, compromise, outright lying, or whatever.

"If you do not support Gay marriage, that is your choice. But I believe this is a moral issue and I refuse to permit this website to be used to argue that gays and lesbians are not deserving of full and equal rights. I am not dumb, and I am actually very capable of undestanding subtle distinctions between personal opinion and political strategy. Feel free to argue political strategy. But don't use this message board to argue that you are personally opposed to giving full and equal rights to gays and lesbians.

"If this website had existed back during the civil rights movement, I would have had the same approach then. You would be welcome to discuss the political consequenses of civil rights, and you would be welcome to discuss what is the best approach for the issue and for the party. But I would simply not tolerate people using this website to push their personal opinion that African Americans should not be permitted to marry white people.

"While you may not agree with my comparing gay rights to the rights of African Americans, I am certain that you can understand the argument I am making here.

"Barney Frank doesn't oppose gay marriage. You are confusing his opinion on political strategy with his opinion on the issue itsef. That is the distinction that I expect all members to understand. It is clear that there are people on both sides of this divide who are incapable of understanding this distinction.

"Allow me to try to make this as clear as possible:

"Making a pragmatic political argument that gay rights don't fly in many parts of the country: PERMITTED ON DU

"Arguing that you personally think gay people don't deserve full and equal rights: NOT PERMITTED ON DU

"It is very important that EVERYONE HERE ON BOTH SIDES of this issue understand this distinction."

I would add to this a reminder that the rules of the site do not allow posts that call other members bigots, and that we have to remove such posts when they come to our attention.

[Solon]

26. I understand what Skinner was saying, and I know I've not acted appropriately myself...

its hard, I'll admit, when tempers are so short, but I am restraining myself at least a little better now. I would like to point out that he did make an important distinction, personal opinions versus arguments for political expediency. I've seen quite a few post advocating for civil unions, and against Same Sex Marriage, and they were not arguing for political expediency, but rather stating a personal belief, even admitting it. Yet nothing was done, and yes I alerted on them. Is it the fact that they add the disclaimer: "But it should be equal to marriage" does that makes it any better?

Some posts were pointing out uncomfortable truths, such as the fact that civil rights just aren't important in this country. But quite a few of those also went far beyond that, and the poster him or herself gave the opinion that civil rights aren't important, or are a low priority, they especially like to compare it to their own struggles. This, again, tells me this is their personal opinion on the issue, and some were quite caustic about it, which is probably a response to my own rudeness. However, I did alert on some of the more atrocious ones, and yet, very little was done.

Then there are some posts that really go beyond the pale, and have no real explanation, and I did follow the rules and alert, and again little was done. I can understand the mods being really busy, and not being able to respond to every alert we members send in a timely manner, but some of these posts last for half a day or more.

I don't claim to be a saint, or the model for decorum, and it is hypocritical of me to complain about the rules being enforced improperly(in my opinion) when I myself have violated so many over the past few days(and probably one or two now). However it is a concern, a concern that is shared by many others on this board.

[The Magistrate]

27. I Appreciate Your Comments Here, Sir, Very Much

I hope you will understand that there are limits on what I can say in response, owing to our confidentiality requirements.

Right now there is an awful lot being tossed at us, and it makes it difficult to sort out the most serious items and concentrate properly on them. We do not act lightly, and do not sanction members without deliberation at length, and it is not easy to maintain a continuity of discussion in such a matter when there is a continuing press of new business laid on top every time we check our alerts. A number of the things I expect you are referring to will eventually be dealt with, one way or another.

As you have said yourself, a good deal of this is not so cut and dried as people would like it to be. There are a number of shades of meaning and intent possible, and we do have to be fair to all members. We start with a presumption of innocence, so to speak, particularly where a weighty charge like bigotry is concerned, and have to have pretty unambiguous statements in hand to sustain the charge through to action. On reflection, I expect you would not want it any other way.

[Solon]

28. I appreciate your response...

I know its difficult to sift through everything right now, and I'm sure your are bombarded, from both sides, right now. So I doubly appreciate the time you took to respond to my post.

I know I didn't help with the bombardment, and I would like to apologize for the nastiness I've posted that was directed at the mods. I won't lie and say I didn't feel completely justified when I was creating said posts, but they were low blows, and posted in the heat of anger.

I never volunteered as a moderator, most likely a good thing, I let my passions overtake my better judgment too often. So I don't know exactly how hard your job as volunteer is, and I know its unappreciated. But I can imagine what its like, and it must be really difficult to, uhm, if you'll excuse me, act as judges on these matters. To be as fair as possible, your right, I wouldn't want it any other way, misunderstandings could too easily lead to rash and unfair judgments.

You don't have to respond to this post, I don't want to take anymore of your time than necessary, just wanted to let you know that, while we may have disagreements about certain things, I'm glad the mods and Admins ultimately try to be as fair as possible, even when any such judgment don't go, in a matter of speaking, my way. Only the the mods know how many of my posts have been deleted, so I will not burden you with that type of behavior anymore, or I'll at least try. Have to be honest about it after all. :)

[davidpdx]

30. Well, on that last paragraph

the last few days the word bigot has been used hundreds of times. If people are using it repeatedly, they should be held accountable for their actions.

[alwysdrunk]

24. So it's true then. Barack and Hillary would be banned here.

Support for civil unions is not allowed. I wonder how many Democrats in office would be allowed to post.

I've actually seen that most of the so called homophobes, me included, do support marriage. So I think many of the police squad need to re-read this.

Thanks for posting this though. I can only imagine what 04 must have been like.