Obama is a smart cookie

[BootinUp]

folks I hope you are paying attention. He is going to set priorities for this country as he was elected to do. That means your issue might have to wait. If he thinks that extending a small olive brance to Warren will further the cause on the top priorities then so be it. Neither he nor I are responsible for the current state of gay rights. You can voice your outrage or displeasure, but I would suggest to you that this early in the game to be so outraged will limit your influence in the future. /off soapbox.

typo corrected

[grantcart]

1. Obama is a wise pie

[GreenPartyVoter]

61. And a clever custard

[salguine]

87. A sly pie, a smart tart, and a savant croissant. Ha ha ha! I crack myself up.

[GreenPartyVoter]

89. Teehee! Bet you can't pull it off with biscotti :^P

[jberryhill]

121. A brilliant biscotti, and a canny cannoli /nt

[Cha]

127. Canny Cannoli! I like that.

A brainy biscotti:rofl:

[salguine]

140. I was going for the rhyme—!

[jberryhill]

145. Oh... A hottie of a biscotti /nt

[salguine]

125. I am forced to concede defeat. Alas, I cannot.

[madmadmad]

96. HE'S A COW PIE!

[JuniperLea]

131. Here you go...

See my sig line!

[TK421]

139. He's a seasoned sage....

okay..maybe that wasn't all that funny

[Deja Q]

2. Oh my word! Common sense! A rarity to be treasured, to be sure.

"I would suggest to you that this early in the game to ne so outraged will limit your influence in the future. /off soapbox."

Typo aside, you make a damningly good point. I wonder if they just sewn their seeds...

[BootinUp]

7. I will have to count the positive responses carefully

I have asbestos suit on as I gingerly proceed to the next reply post.

[Critters2]

3. What are these top priorities, these causes that Warren will help further?

And why are gay rights NOT a priority?

This is just another "get over it, gays" thread. :puke:

[BootinUp]

8. Question and answer

Do you not think Warren has political influence?

Gay rights are not a top priority because this is America where over 50% of the people are still struggling with the issue and any strategy to further the cause will not include headline grabbing stuff, at least not yet. Disclaimer: my opinions are not the opinions of anyone else.

[Critters2]

13. Why would asking a gay-friendly pastor to pray be "healine-grabbing stuff"?

And yes, Warren has political influence. He influenced the state of California to remove gays' right to marry. He's a bigot.

[localroger]

20. I would suspect fixing the economy and health care

Obama needs centrist and rightward people to lean on their representatives to get behind his plans. The bone he has given to them here is entirely meaningless; it sets no policy, and doesn't even say anything except to the narrow group of people who consider it important (in which respect it will probably prove to be a brilliant move). If he can get any of these people to look past the hot button issues to those of commonality, such as ameliorating poverty, then it's more ammo for the other issues. All signs are that Obama can pull that kind of thing off.

If Obama can pull together a hat trick on something big with a lot of common agreement, then those people will be largely neutralized when he gets around to more controversial issues. Before opening those cans of worms such as LGBT rights and doing something about the ridiculous drug "war," he has to establish bona fides and build bridges. With successes under belt people who might have been entrenched bitter enemies might be less likely to fight to the death over the queers or the debbil weed. But if he goes there from the outset, those people will dig in their heels and the existing impasse will continue indefinitely.

Obama has really remarkable talents in this regard. I got on the bandwagon after the Tulane University primary speech, where he walked into a room full of Katrina survivors and opened with remarks about New Orleans' legacy in the slave trade, and instead of getting lynched within three more sentences had them cheering him. I expect the Warren thing is a very explicit message to a group of people most of us have completely written off, a message that says we do have things to agree on, and if you act like adults and understand what you can and can't expect we can try to accomplish something we all want. I expect Warren's invocation will be devoid of hot-button content, because he does want a seat at the table, and his people do, and this invocation isn't it, yet.

So it's not you guys who are being told to get over it. It's really the fundies who are in the process of being told that they need to get over bullshit like abortion and gay rights, and join with us in the things that are important -- reducing poverty, caring for the sick, ending torture and rendition, and so on. But like a kid who is yelling "la la la I can't hear you" you can't just tell them that they are acting like assholes; you must make them want to act like adults.

[Critters2]

21. Well, I wish he'd tell me to get over it. I'd love to be given a position

of honor like giving the invocation at his inauguration. I made the mistake of supporting him though. So, no goodies for me. Oh, and I'm bi. So, I need to just get over it.

[LostinVA]

23. Presidents can multitak you know -- even LBJ did

He was juggling Vietnam, a horrible ecomy, and societal unrest... and still managed to get teh Civil Rights Act passed. Are you saying Obama isn't as sharp as that good ole boy LBJ?

[localroger]

59. LBJ paid a high price for that

It was definitely the principled thing to do, but under LBJ most ordinary people didn't worry about paying their doctors or having a job next week. What was considered a "horrible" economy then would be considered a gift from the FSM right now.

I got pet projects of my own which aren't getting the love, but I understand why. That job LBJ finished was started in the 1860's. What you want is a LOT closer than that, but as the recent election unfortunately showed not quite there yet. Meanwhile, we got stuff that can be done immediately, and the doing of that might put a shoe in the door for the more controversial stuff closer to our hearts.

[shellgame26]

97. Beautifully said

[loyalsister]

100. You nailed it

It's the white guys with confederate flags who have lost their jobs and have kids who need health care being told to get over it.
Don;t forget, an unthinkable number of them voted for Obama. And we all depend on him to bail us out of this mess.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KitchenWitch]

5. How much longer should GLBTs wait to be included as full participating citizens here?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

22. Apparently, when some straight dude tells me it's okay to be a full citizen

[tabatha]

6. I agree.

Obama has an overarching plan, and he is putting the pieces in place.
The division and rancour in this country must end if it is to be saved.
And all hands are required, no matter how diverse, to save this planet.

[EFerrari]

9. That's hilarious. The rightwing will take that olive branch and mock him with it.

And, free clue, this not early in the game. This is life right now.

[BootinUp]

12. Politics can be compared to a game

and that might be a good comparison in this case.

Obama must build bridges to get support for the many many issues he will drive. Warren is not getting much at this point. One could argue that the outrage being hurled is only giving his cause more attention. But there is no question Obama needs some support from people who don't share his agenda on gay rights but on other issues.

[Critters2]

14. Warren DOES share his agenda on gay rights.

They both oppose marriage equality.

[EFerrari]

15. There is no, listen, no justification for honoring this horrible man in this way.

If Obama needs to work the fundy crowd, he didn't need chose this repulsive specimen who was squarely behind Prop 8. To pretend he did is insulting in addition to being specious.

There are plenty of people he could have recruited to do this service for him. He chose Warren. That was his choice.

[polichick]

19. Heck, they'll beat him with his olive branch.

[Bucky]

10. Fine, he's smart. It's still an insult and I'm still going to spout off about it

I'm not a big fan of sacrificing small progress for taking the moral high ground, but this particular trade off bothers me. Maybe it'll bother me less when I see what the actual trade off is. But any move like this needs to be denounced. There must be a political cost to hugging an American who stands against equal rights for all. It must not be an easy thing to do.

I trust Obama to keep his footing here, so far, but he has still taken a step down a very slippery slope.

[Phx_Dem]

11. Whaaaa?? A reasonable post in the midst of a full-blown tantrum?

Thank you.

[EFerrari]

16. And you need to be thanking the hundreds of people that had full blown tantrums

for the last fifty years that you will be inaugurating Obama next month.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. Spot on

[EFerrari]

29. A lot of things got really clear to me in the last 24 hours.

Thanks.

[Critters2]

26. Yep. They could not have brought this "change" sitting in the back of the bus.nt

[Phx_Dem]

35. I don't need you telling me what to be thankful for.

And righting a wrong is not the same as a having a temper tantrum, which this board seems to do every time Obama does something that they don't like. This is what, the 4th, 5th, 6th, tantrum since he's been elected and he hasn't even taken office.

Pick your battles, but don't bitch about every fucking thing.

"Why is he talking to Republicans!!"
"How dare he appoint Republicans. We voted for change!!!"
"He's changing his mind on getting the troops of Iraq!!!"
"Why aren't there any progressives in the cabinet!"
"He fucking keeping Robert Gates!!"

Blah blah blah.

[EFerrari]

37. Apparently, yes, you do. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. All due respect, sfexpat2000, the Civil Rights Movement practiced a wide variety of strategies

Some more successful than others. To represent the whole shebang as a "full blown tantrum" is historically inaccurate. Of course, when we can align our current state of minds with some imagined historical victory, it makes us feel better in the now, but that's not really how the Civil Rights movement operated, as even its internal discussions would show you.

[BootinUp]

56. +1

[EFerrari]

57. All due reciprocal respect, I never said that.

In this atmosphere, everything is apparently being called a "tantrum". I was using the term as the poster was using it. But, hey, thanks.

[Hansel]

72. Amen.

[Number23]

92. PLEASE do not compare the civil rights struggle to the hysteria over Warren's speech

I can't take it. Please... it is no where near the same thing.

Rick Warren, no matter how much of an idiot and a fool, has never denied anyone the right to vote, denied them housing, the ability to educate themselves and their children etc.

The struggle for marriage equality is a legitimate civil rights issue. Gay discrimination in this country is a legitimate civil rights issue. The hysteria over Rick Warren's 2-minute speech is not.

[Critters2]

He denied people the right to marry, to form families.

Would you be as dismissive of a racist speaking at the inauguration?

[Number23]

118. What part of my comment is dismissive?

Why are some of you absolutely DETERMINED to piss off the entire United States of America over this mess??

And you know what, because I understand what Obama is trying to do, I would not get all bent out of shape if he put a racist up on that stage. He's acknowledging the existence of a group of folks he doesn't agree with and I'd much rather have them on stage for two minutes and then vanish than be a part of his policy team.

So no, a racist used the way that Obama is using Warren would not bother me. And I'm a black chick from Georgia so that should say something to some of you, but I already know that it won't. I'll be just another "self-loather" who thinks "Obama shits pink ice cream."

[readmoreoften]

113. The fuck he doesn't.

Are you telling me that RICK WARREN's support of people being able to be fired for being LGBT doesn't deny people rights or effect their ability to feed their kids?

It's not just about marriage. He calls us pedophiles. When his followers beat us to death, that really gets in the way of supporting kids--or growing up to have them.

[Number23]

117. You need to follow your own damn moniker

And READ MORE OFTEN.

Rick Warren has not imposed a SINGLE LAW to deny gays the right to own housing or care for themselves in the vein of what the civil rights movement fought for. I don't give a RAT'S ASS how you try to swing this, that is the case.

He may be a bigot. He may have SUPPORTED laws that denied gays their rights but my comment was that Rick Warren's 2-minute invocation at Obama's inauguration, no matter how reprehensible it may be to some, IN NO WAY comes close to the civil rights struggle and should not be compared.

And I for one am sick to DEATH of having gay people scream at everyone on this board. So many here have suffered egregious attacks as citizens of this country. (I am a black woman from GEORGIA. You want to keep screaming at me, asshole??) I am FOR gay rights, I am FOR marriage equality and so are many Americans, including members of DU who have been called everything but a child of God by folks like you.

And if you want to be pissed off at me that I don't view Rick Warren's speech at the inauguration as some secret code that Obama hates gay people and is just itching to deny them rights?? Knock yourself out, slim!

Edit: While I am sick of having a small group of gay folks scream at everyone, I am very glad that there is a large gay community on DU. Non-gays can understand exactly what gay concerns are re: Warren, and (hopefully) gays who are upset by Warren can understand why many, including other gays, are not.

[readmoreoften]

119. Well, no shit he hasn't IMPOSED a law. This is still the UNITED STATES.

You're a black women from Georgia? So what? I'm a poor white woman from Texas with a transgendered half Native American partner who has a chipped front tooth from being beaten with a bat by Good Old Boys. I pay more in taxes than straight single OR married people because I'm gay. I face being beaten to death by homophobes EVERY DAY. My partner has been escorted out of RESTROOMS numerous times because black, white, and latino women feel uncomfortable about how masculine she is. I know people who have been LAUGHED OUT OF INTERVIEWS when they showed up gay and a female who was put in a male jail cell by cops as a joke. It is still perfectly legal to FIRE ME if my boss discovers that I'm gay.

I'm sorry. LGBT people are routinely murdered, were lobotomized until 1978, were castrated, imprisoned, raped by police, and our murder and exclusion continues. We are in every ethnic group. We are not just white people. We are not just Americans.

If you don't consider our struggle to end our murders, firings, and general discrimination to be "a civil rights struggle" that's on you, "slim". Because you're on the wrong side of history on this one.

[Number23]

124. Okay. So you CAN actually read but it's the MEANING of words that have you vexed

'Cause that's sure as hell the only way I can explain you interpreting the comments that I've made:

"The struggle for marriage equality is a legitimate civil rights issue. Gay discrimination in this country is a legitimate civil rights issue."

And...

"I am FOR gay rights, I am FOR marriage equality"

To mean "If you don't consider our struggle to end our murders, firings, and general discrimination to be "a civil rights struggle" that's on you, "slim"."

If you can't be bothered to READ what someone has to say about an issue, at least have the common sense if not the intellect to remove yourself from the conversation. You don't do your side any favors.

[readmoreoften]

126. "IN NO WAY comes close to the civil rights struggle and should not be compared..."

Your words, not mine.

If a person doesn't support justice because a person facing injustice is angry, than that person doesn't support truth and justice, they only want to feel good about themselves. I've had black folks scream and yell at me about racial injustice and white privilege--but I still fight against racial injustice and white privilege because equality is the foundation of all struggles for truth. The truth is the truth no matter how you say it. I never met a white person who stopped believing in racial equality because black folks were angry about injustices against them--except for white folks who are secretly racist and already looking for an excuse to remain that way. I'm sure it works the same with straight folks.

[Number23]

138. God DAMN you really cannot read!

LOL Now I understand your screen name.

The "In no way comes close to the civil rights struggle" was in reference to the hysteria and outrage over Warren's invocation at the inauguration.

I have no time for you. Best of luck in your quest even though it looks like someone else will have to read to you how to get to it...

[Solon]

17. How many times does equal rights have to wait?

How many election cycles, can you give a hard number, or are you just blowing smoke up all our asses?

[localroger]

30. Until it can actually be achieved

It does no good to give stirring speeches to people who aren't ready to hear them. The slaves were freed in 1860 but equal rights there are still a problem. I really think it will happen a lot faster for LGBT issues mainly because the up and coming generation has noticed how much gays contribute and they don't care, and we don't have the convenient color-coding problem. But it may take another decade. Ramming through resolutions to force people to accept such realities doesn't work; you must show them that their fears are stupid.

Unfortunately, ramming through resolutions and shouting in their ears tends to reinforce their irrational fears. What Obama has done here is an essentially meaningless act that might seriously dent some of the automatic resistance he will face over all of his agenda from the loonie fringe. And let's face it, there are more important issues. It is rather hard to be sexually fulfilled if you are dying of cancer because you can't afford to get it treated.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Bullshit

The problem is not that "people aren't ready." That's a crock of shit. The problem, rather, as this recent blow-up clearly demonstrates, is that neither side knows how to speak with the other. It's easy enough to say "Never compromise with BIGOTS! Period!" But whether X is bigotry is precisely what's under discussion, at least as far as the other side is concerned. You can say it until you're blue in the face. It won't make a bit of difference. You have to discover the arguments that will work, not sit around waiting for the audience, or yelling and screaming at them.

[Hansel]

73. And it helps to pick the right forum. And the right place and time. n/t

[Neecy]

54. sexually fulfilled?

Our lives are about more than being sexually fulfilled. But I've seen a lot of myths flying around here today, so I'm not surprised to read this.

[localroger]

64. You need to get past this 'enemies everywhere' thing

Look, I have a much bigger social acceptability problem than you, look at my reply to the comment above yours. I am one of the biggest allies you will ever have because you guys are leading the charge that might get people like me in the door another generation down the line. I absolutely want you to get everything you want. But if you insist that what you want is more important than anything else when everyone is telling you that maybe it isn't at the moment, you will turn a lot of potential allies who would have helped make it happen into at best indifferents who will shrug when the big push comes.

Prop 8 was a horrible outrage but it underscores that our society is not quite where it needs to be. It is a lot closer than it was a few years ago and before long it will be over the tipping point, but we cannot prevail in anything we want against coordinated multifaceted resistance. And that's what you will face if you don't divide these people the way they've divided us over the years and slip a few of them the occasional carrot.

[Neecy]

70. are you responding to me?

Our relationships are boiled down to 'sexual fulfillment' and I, in turn, get a lecture?

[localroger]

104. Yes, you get a lecture

Because you pulled that phrase out of context to justify a sniffy fit and ignored my point, which is that you cannot expect the President of the United States to put an issue that affects maybe 15% of the population, no matter how important it may be to you personally, in front of issues that affect everyone a lot more.

Getting back to the original point, Obama needs Warren's followers (or as many as he can peel off) for universal issues like health care and worker's rights. He will not get them if he puts gay marriage and the failed drug war out front, and we will get nothing. Letting Warren say a prayer has zero effect on policy and might produce real help in unrelated matters, then with successes in more general matters in hand he might get the room to toss some of them under the buss and go to more narrowly focused issues. That is not dissing you, it is strategy, and those who do not understand that sort of thing tend to lose.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

75. How are you still here?

You post that gays are perverts and yet you are here.

[localroger]

85. Perhaps it is because...

I am a pervert. I hear that is a considered a pejorative, which is news. Too bad. One of my favorite writers, Pat Califia, who has manged to be all four letters of "GLBT" in one lifetime, endorsed it for her/himself. You might learn something from her/him.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

86. I know who Pat Califia is, and you, are no Pat Califia

[localroger]

90. No, I am not

I idolize Pat Califia because s/he has been all of the things I think and dream, and s/he has taken all of the consequences. I daresay you are no Pat Califia either. But we should both learn from her/him.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

91. So what's your "perversion?"

Trust me, I won't judge. I just want to know why you call yourself a pervert.

[localroger]

102. Let's just say...

I really like Pat(rick) Califia's fiction.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

106. Oooo, you're into BDSM

How bourgeois.

I thought it was going to be something weird the way you're acting, like diapers or furries.

[localroger]

132. No, I leave the diapers to my Senator

And furries, well, furries in bondage ... hmmm ...

[elshiva]

No, you are not like Pat Califia.

You did not have to face the challenges of being a FTM in a relationship with another FTM and try to raise a child.

[localroger]

105. Yes, I know PC's life story too

Given that you are basically saying exactly what I said in the post you're replying to, is there some reason for the snarky tone of the title?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

122. I'd say she has a reason

A good one.

[localroger]

129. A reason for what?

I first turned on to PC in the early 1980's, when she was neither transgender nor raising a child but was most definitely both a lesbian and a sadomasochist, and wrote about her experiences with such honesty that it stunned me. There were interesting clues in some of those writings of what might lie ahead, that her own perversion (her word) might be more about "gayness" itself, and that what a gay man and woman do when they get together for some reason such as a mutual interest in S&M might not be "straight" sex. I was not surprised when she went transgender. The rest of it is, well, the usual set of problems to some degree but he keeps writing about them, although many of his old allies now shun him because he's not a she. I am very glad not to have problems quite that exquisite but even more glad that someone who does has chosen to give us such a window on his/her experiences.

I think you are trying to imply some ownership over PC because she is transgender but I'd say I was there first since I'm a sadomasochist. And who are either of us to try to own him anyway? He has written very eloquently, both as a man and a woman, that perversion is not just not wrong but perhaps something to be celebrated. I think it's fair to say that without PC I might never have showed anyone else the highly weird novel I wrote, which has been the source of much of my tiny little flame of net dot notoriety.

If you are trying to say that I cannot possibly be like PC because I'm not gay or transgender, I think he'd be the first to throw a shoe at you and remind you that she herself identified most strongly as a sadomasochist when she decided to out herself. Yet as she herself once wrote, the poo-bahs of the gay movement were moving even the early 90's to keep the leather and whips people out of their parades because it might interfere with their little "we're normal" campaign.

PC would be the first to tell you we're not normal, and getting people to think of us as normal isn't the solution, because that just excludes someone else. The solution is to get people to stop thinking of "normal" as the standard for human rights. And given the gains made in my lifetime -- I was astonished not that prop 8 succeeded but at the effort it took to get it over the threshold -- I'd say those ideas are not so science fictional as they were when I was a kid.

[davidinalameda]

99. if Pat was one of your favorite writers

you'd know that HE refers to HIMSELF as a MAN

[localroger]

101. He does today

I tend to refer to transgendered people by their contemporary gender, unless they've asked me to do otherwise. I bellieve he also has switched to "Patrick." But if I were discussing the heroic publication of A Secret Side of Lesbian Sexuality I would refer to her as Pat.

[mondo joe]

67. WTF are you talking about with "sexually fulfilled"? Fucking ignorant. Fucking ignorant.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

82. sexually fulfilled?

that's what you think this is about?

and NO, this is not a meaningless act

it speaks VOLUMES

[PVnRT]

88. Get educated

Laws for civil rights were passed, then attitudes changed, because they had no choice. At the very least, they had to tolerate others.

Or, I suppose they could have take what is the preferred tactic on DU, and wait around, hope the racists change their minds if we coddle them enough and thrown them a few more bones.

[localroger]

103. Then what, exactly, was going on...

...between 1865 and 1965? Those elected representatives aren't going to pass laws until there is enough public support. You need that critical mass or you get bupkis. Once you have it, you pass the laws and tell the die hard jerks that they're now the ones who have to get over it.

[Jamastiene]

115. So, what you are saying is that there was no resistance to civil rights for black people in 1965?

Wrong!

Your faulty logic would mean there would be no such thing as the KKK, neo-Nazis, or Aryan Nations or any other racist group around today. Instead, the truth is, they are still around and still causing trouble everywhere you look....if you pull your head out your ass and actually look, that is.

Your "logic" is illogical. Waiting around hoping that hate mongers will change their minds is a fool's folly. It ain't gonna happen.

[localroger]

133. No

What I'm saying is that what happend in 1965 was IMPOSSIBLE for the previous 100 years. That was when it became possible for the forces of good to finally get legislation through that would not end the careers of the politicians who voted for it (and let's not forget, a lot of that due to JFK getting shot). YOUR theory would suggest that what was done in the 1960's could have been done in the 1870's, and why not? It took an entire century to get things to the point where that law could be passed, and it might have taken longer had JFK not been assassinated. There was never a period in that century when powerful voices were not raised about the injustices endured by black people, and yet it took five whole generations to get the law passed. There's a reason for that, and that reason is "elections."

You guys are much, much closer than that; if not for millions of dollars from the Mormon Church, Prop 8 probably wouldn't have passed, and the Mormons are now smarting from the backlash to their meddling. The time is not now, but it is close. But don't be so stupid as to think you can just railroad it in. It took a whole hundred years to get the law on the side of fighting instead of supporting those KKK, neo-nazis, Aryans, and other rifraff you mention. And even then you have strong resistance; I happen to live in the South, in a Louisiana parish that went 87% for Geezer/Gidget. Don't tell me about racists, I have to deal with them every day.

They would still be running things if not for laws passed by a critical mass of people in other parts of the country. It's that critical mass you must create, and you don't do it by pissing off people who are normally inclined to be your allies.

[uppityperson]

112. "It is rather hard to be sexually fulfilled if you are dying of cancer because..." WTF?

Do you seriously believe that being gay is about being "sexually fulfilled"? Good lord.

Yeah, that was Matthew Shephard's problem, he just couldn't get sexually fulfilled until he was tied to a fence and beaten.

[localroger]

135. Sorry, I believe being human is about being sexually fulfilled

That in turn encompassing a lot of other things, but it's a lot of complication to be putting into this particular snowball fight I have to admit.

[uppityperson]

141. That line takes me along those who are homophobic because "ick, sex, that is all it is about, ick"

There is not a "gay life style" any more than there is a "hetero lifestyle" either.

[localroger]

142. Of course not

I was not trying to imply that sex is everything, but more that without sex the rest is kind of empty and to many meaningless. We wrap things like marriage around sex because it is so important to us. I did not mean offence, in fact just the opposite. The person who complained that I used the word "pervert" did not notice that I used it first to describe myself. Similarly, here, I describe my own version of the human condition. It is, perhaps unfortunately, the only one I know well enough to describe with verisimilitude.

[readmoreoften]

120. Sexually fulfilled? You do realize that we are trying to get our CANCER treated

through our partner's benefits, you ignorant fuck.

[localroger]

134. I have written extensively elsewhere about this

The problem there is not that you can't get married, it's that you have to to get health care. A lot of people on the gay marriage bandwagon don't get that.

I am married and I DIDN'T WANT TO, but I HAD to to get coverage for my wife. THAT is the outrage. I will spare the invective though it would be richly deserved.

[readmoreoften]

136. You do know that there are over a 1000 other benefits we don't get too, right?

You do know that we can be fired for being gay, right?
You do know that we still get beat to death, regularly, for being gay, right?
You do know that the state can refuse my right to care for my partner on her death bed, right?

Even if we had socialized medicine, we'd need equality in all 1000 areas.

[localroger]

137. Of course

And all of those things are bad and should be corrected.

You do realize that I am now pretty much chained to my wife, so that now no matter what differences we might evolve we can never leave one another, even if we both think it's the best thing?

The problems that concern you will be fixed in due course, probably within a decade in some places; the forces that guarantee that are in place, and it is very foolish of you to be alienating people who should be and will be your allies when that happens because it's not possible yet.

The problems that concern me will not be fixed within my lifeteime, barring some unforeseen life extension technology. I do not want the right to marry, I want the right for me and my partner to exist in freedom without coercion. We had that until the health care system decided otherwise.

[LostinVA]

18. My issue may have to wait -- are you REALLY that arrogant and that "fuck you"?

How DARE you.

And, thank you so fucking much to tell us to calm our "outrage" (read: whining) or Else. We have to be good little queers or we won't get a few crumbs. You people who espouse this are breaking DU rules bu NOT advocating equal rights for Gays.

[Cattledog]

27. I luv breaking rules!

[terrya]

24. The President-elect is SUPPOSED to be for full equality of GLBT people.

Jesus Christ, if will have this in just 30 days, plus an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress, and we're STILL supposed to wait, exactly how fucking long are we supposed to wait????

[BootinUp]

28. At least 100 days after the fucking inauguration? nt

[EFerrari]

32. So, that's AFTER he formed his government and AFTER his inaugural

that will set his themes for the next four years?

I think that's just bad planning.

[terrya]

34. Or maybe people like the OP don't give a damn about equality for GLBT people.

I've seen variations of "get over it" and "you'll just have to wait for your pet issues", etc. I think it's basically boiling down to the same thing. An utter lack of interest.

[EFerrari]

36. People want to enjoy the Inaugural.

Well, if they aren't enjoying, it's time for them to email Obama because it's his party, his planners and his problem at this point.

[BootinUp]

38. You want an honest answer?

My top priority is not gay rights. On the other hand I support politicians who speak in favor of them because I belive its the right agenda.

[Maven]

39. What is your top priority? What really affects you most, directly, on a personal level?

Let us know so we can tell you how unimportant it is.

[BootinUp]

40. My job. nt

[Maven]

41. Lovely. How nice that no one can fire you for who or what you are.

As you know, gay people don't need to work for a living because we're all on the big gay dole. In fact, we don't even use money! We just exchange chiffon. We also don't pay rent or need to obtain housing. Also, we have free health insurance and pay no taxes. It's all taken care of for us! I can see now why you thought your life takes priority over ours.

Have a nice day.

[BootinUp]

42. As I posted elsewhere in the thread

this is politics, and I merely offered my suggestions with regard to political strategy. Its amazing what a bees nest that unearthed.

[Maven]

44. Next time don't be so arrogant and dismissive. Try a little self-awareness and empathy.

Try listening, the way you and your ilk demand we "listen" to people who'd like us to disappear from the face of the earth.

And get some understanding about how real, and how serious, the consequences of being a politically targeted minority are on a practical, day-to-day level. It isn't about a symbolic ceremony. It's about the real problems you deal with every day, plus an extra layer of oppression to go with it.

Thanks.

[BootinUp]

45. I never demanded anything.

I think you are projecting a little. But I understand the anger, and I wish there was something I could do about the problem. I hope that helps explain my position.

[mondo joe]

71. Does it have to be your top priority for it to matter at all?

It clearly doesn't.

Nice commitment to civil rights there. :eyes:

[BootinUp]

74. You accuse of me of not caring at all

about the issue? I would appreciate it if you engaged in more in depth discussion to understand my position before making that accusation.

[mondo joe]

76. You've made yourself plain.

Thank you.

Civil right, not a priority.

[BootinUp]

78. Did you vote for Obama?

and did you follow the campaign at all?

[mondo joe]

80. I did. NT

[BootinUp]

81. I support your right to voice your

opinions on this.

[mondo joe]

83. That's awfully big of you. NT

[BootinUp]

84. no prob. nt

[mondo joe]

31. Then maybe shouldn't describe hmself as a "fierce advocate" for GLBT people.

You're not describing ferocity.

[BootinUp]

43. I would never describe him that way. nt.

[mondo joe]

47. But he describes himself that way. So at least we agree he's lying. NT

[shellgame26]

98. So because gay rights

isn't the first on his list of prioritites means he is lying? This man is inheriting a record deficit, an economy in shambles, 2 failed wars, a country with a reputation of torturing people, a broken military, massive unemployment, crumbling infrastructure, environmental disasters, you name it! He has stated that his first priority as soon as he gets into office is to create a new green economy. Let him focus his efforts on that first so that all Americans gay and straight can have jobs. BUt to say he is lying??? C'mon!

[readmoreoften]

114. How hard is it NOT to pick someone who calls us pedophiles? HOW HARD?

[progressoid]

46. Smart cookie? Is like a Snickerdoodle?

[last1standing]

49. I almost never say this, but FUCK YOU!

Why don't you lose your fucking basic human rights and then tell me how much you love waiting for someone to give enough of a Damn to give them back? But you got yours so we can fucking wait. What a load of human excrement you are.

Asshole!

And when the mods come to delete this post, I'll still feel it was worth it to say before putting you on ignore. I just don't want to read your trash any longer.

[BootinUp]

51. Oh well.

its not like when I started this thread I didn't know some children would chime in.

[IndianaGreen]

50. Obama supports Prop 8

by supporting Prop 8 supporter Rick Warren, Obama has given his imprimatur to Prop 8.

[BootinUp]

53. Typical IndianaGreen logic. nt

[depakid]

55. LOL. "No drama Obama" just uneccesarily created a major controversy

at an inaugeration by further elevating a fundamentalist whack job to national prominance at a time when the nation desperately needs to return to reason- and is now having to engage in damage control, before he's even been sworn in!

And the outcry he's created is largely over a divisive culture war issue!

From any objective standpoint, that counts as one of the stupidest polical/public relations moves a presdient elect could have made at this stage of the game.

[BootinUp]

58. Every war has two sides.

Obama has explained his reasoning both during the campaign and now.

[depakid]

62. That's like saying that science and reason doesn't matter

Which is one of the PRIMARY reasons for the decline (and eventual fall?) of the United States.

It embodies the notion that NO ONE is ever correct- and it's why the American media (unlike other western nations) seems to have the need to seek out and elevate every nutcase or corrupt organization's "views" to a level on par with scientific, medical experts- or career diplomats for that matter. Global warming is a classic example- but there are many, many more.

The process is insidious, as Krugman lays out here:

“If Bush said the earth is flat, of course Fox News would say ‘yes, the earth is flat, and anyone who says different is unpatriotic.’ And mainstream media would have stories with the headline: ‘Shape of Earth: Views Differ.’…and would at most report that some Democrats say that it’s round.” There’s “something deeply dysfunctional with established media facing something we’ve not seen before, an epidemic of lying about policy.”

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/lydondev/2003/09/20/op-ed-jeremiah-the-new-york-times-paul-krugman/

Which is to say there aren't always two sides to every issue-

[BootinUp]

63. Don't ever try to become a diplomat. nt

[depakid]

65. Not interested in pandering to fundamentalists-

I'm interested (as every rational person should be) in relegating them back to the finge- and ensuring that they're as far away from any power- or influence over policy making- or the appearance therof, as possible.

Which, btw- is where they've remained in most other western nations, who had the wisdom not to legitimize them- and embark on ill advised wars on science, on Christmas- or to further religious conflicts over archaic and often dysfunctional beliefs.

[mondo joe]

79. And what war in particular do you speak of?

[DCBob]

60. No doubt Obama is brilliant but I think he may have miscalculated this one.

I miscalculated too. I thought this was much ado about nothing but clearly it is now a major controversy and is damaging Obama. It is a shame because it was not necessary. There were many alternatives. But Obama is a very smart cookie and I am sure he will figure out a way of making a positive out of a negative as he has done so many times before.

[NJmaverick]

66. Obama is also true to his word

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

69. I'll believe that when I see it

[mondo joe]

77. Does that include his claim to be a "fierce advocate" for gays and lesbians?

Because it looks more like Farce Advocate.

[davidpdx]

93. Jim, it's time to give up on those who think Obama is a failure

when he hasn't even been sworn in. I'm convinced those people are a lost cause and wouldn't have been happier if McCain had won.

[lostnotforgotten]

94. When Did Bigotry Become Common Sense?

eom

[madmadmad]

95. MY RIGHTS HAVE TO WAIT? I HAVE TO TOLERATE BIGOTRY AGAINST ME?

YOU AND ALL OTHER OBAMA APOLOGISTS ARE BIGOTS, PURE AND SIMPLE.

[David Zephyr]

107. Your loathing of the GLBT community is second to none here at the DU.

At least, you are no longer cryptic about it.

I congratulate you for coming out so much recently with post after post of your low regard for my GLBT sisters and brothers.

And please, don't try to suck up later and make nice. I like an honest man and you are finally, at long last that.

You are second to none in your loathing of gay people like me and diminishing our struggle for the same civil rights you enjoy. Don't ever change.

[BootinUp]

123. Crock a shit

please support that with an explanation, where did I post something that supports your *conclusions*

[Chovexani]

108. .

[Ian David]

109. How fortunate you are that this in no way effects you, personally. n/t

[AntiFascist]

110. I think he's been eating too much pie, and just let out a turd n/t

[flvegan]

111. Oh, brother.

:eyes:

[Jamastiene]

116. Gee, how cocky. You put yourself equal to the President-Elect of the United States of America.

"Neither he nor I are responsible for the current state of gay rights. You can voice your outrage or displeasure, but I would suggest to you that this early in the game to be so outraged will limit your influence in the future."

Who died and made you God?

un-FUCKING-believable.

[Neshanic]

128. "Hey Mr. O,, Rick here. I just wanted to call and tell you not to get too

worked up about me painting you in a corner with the press, and now this legal thing invalidating 18,000 marriages. I know you will cover it as you always do. I think we sometimes are in the same business, you know, slinging bullshit, but I get the Big Jesus and Bible out. But you are a master because it all comes back to you, and you get er done!

See ya in Washington."

[JuniperLea]

130. Does upholding the Constitution have to wait too?

See my sig line. This isn't just about the GBLT community, this is about everyone who is NOT a Christian!

[Orsino]

143. This issue has already been waiting for a hundred thousand years or more.

"My" issue, my ass.

[Liberalboy]

144. You may be right....

...but sitting in the back of the bus for a little while longer still sucks and feels crappy. Gets tiring after a while, and you want to just be like everyone around you

[verges]

146. Yup. I agree.

tried to reccomend. I didn't realize this thread was three days old.

[ZombieHorde]

147. No, he is the President Elect. Get it right.

He is going

No, he is staying here to help undue the damage of GWB.

I are responsible for the current state of gay rights

You have a lot of explaining to do.

typo corrected

Link or lies buddy, we all know no typo was made.

[No Elephants]

148. For the 40th time, inviting him to give the invocation at the most historic inauguration since

WAshington's is not just a small gesture.

Limit my influence in the future" LOL

[polichick]

149. Even smart cookies make boneheaded decisions sometimes...

If he's REALLY smart, he'll fix this one asap.

[makinguphumans]

150. sorry, but Obama missed the Smart train on this issue.

[Evoman]

151. Intelligence without principles doesn't count for shit.

And you are not showing principles when you fuck over the people who believe in you, worked for you, and VOTED for you to honour assholes that would stab you in the back without thinking twice.

Enough with the ass-kissing bullshit. Enough with the politics of triangulation. Enough with the authoritarian bending over to the people who would twist your loyalty to their purposes.

If Obama has principles, he should fucking show it. I'm sure as hell not ready to throw him away, and I think he has it in him to do important things. But the way he has started has been pathetic, and I'm not about to compromise MY principles to rationalize this bullshit. By all means, let's wait until he starts his term before we make a decision on his abilities...but in the meantime, we gotta be fire. We gotta let him now that if we don't get what we want, we will burn.

Being loud and insistent is the only way to get what you want.

[Swamp Rat]

152. "Mmmm... Obama sa grancha lickmoomoo!... hahahah!!!"

:9

[BeFree]

153. IBTL

How dare you!