CBS Bush documents NOT fake!

[Eye See You]

Frist of the chump with the screen name, "Buckhead" is not a blogger!
He posts stuff on Free Republic. Now comes the good stuff.

Regarding the Bush Worshippers Professional Liars Club and their claim
that "superscript/proportional spacing" was not available in the early
1970s --

From http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html, (IBM Archive
from the year 1941):

"IBM announces the Electromatic Model 04 electric typewriter, featuring
the revolutionary concept of proportional spacing. By assigning varied
rather than uniform spacing to different sized characters, the Type 4
recreated the appearance of a printed page, an effect that was further
enhanced by a typewriter ribbon innovation that produced clearer, sharper
words on the page. The proportional spacing feature became a staple of the
IBM Executive series typewriters."
________

From http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/091104W.shtml:

"CBS News Anchor Dan Rather says many of those raising questions about the
documents have focused on something called superscript, a key that
automatically types a raised 'th.'
Critics claim typewriters didn't have that ability in the 1970s. But some
models did. In fact, other Bush military records already released by the
White House itself show the same superscript – including one from 1968.
Some analysts outside CBS say they believe the typeface on these memos is
New Times Roman, which they claim was not available in the 1970s.
But the owner of the company that distributes this typing style says it
has been available since 1931."
________

This hoax that "superscript" and "proportional spacing" was not available
on typewriters in the early 1970s is pure bullshit. These "people" will
say anything to defend their war-criminal-in-chief.

If you believe that "superscript" was too advanced for that period of
time, then I suppose you believe that the moon landing in 1969 was also
faked. You may want to look into membership in the Flat Earth Society.
And, oh yeah, did you know that "up" is actually "down"?
_______

RE: The troll who posted more <stike>subterfuge</strike> bullshit and
closed with "John Kerry still refuses to release his military records."

We KNOW that Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam, we KNOW he fought and
was injured, we KNOW he received a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with Combat
V, and three Purple Hearts. What else would you like to know, troll?

The Bushy-boy sycophantic knuckledragging brownnosed ass-lickers are
desperate because their world is based on an endless series of lies,
distortions, half-truths and self-serving hyperbole, and that world is
unraveling, one lie at a time.

<< Documents unearthed by CBS News that raise doubts about whether
> President Bush fulfilled his obligations to the Texas Air National
> Guard include several features suggesting that they were generated by
> a computer or word processor rather than a Vietnam War-era
> typewriter, experts said yesterday.
>

[papau]

1. "superscript" and "proportional spacing" began in 1941.

In 1964 the IBM Selectric Composer could do all that Word can do today as to format.

By 1960 the "superscript" and "proportional spacing" Executive IBM typewriter could do most if not all that seen on the docs, including the raised th via the extra key one purchased.

The Military records show that the Composer was on Military bases in 69.

The only thing missing is the bill of sale of either an Executive Typewriter or a Selectric Composer Typewriter/typesetter for that base where Bush's records were typed up.

The media fell for Rove';s game because they wanted tp protect Bush.

Mediawhores do not have ethics - and in this case do not have brains.

[troublemaker]

10. Any specifics re: "including the raised th via the extra key one purchase

Would be appreciated. I have used a standard non-proportional typewriter with a "th" key--an old librarian typewriter for index cards. But I have yet to see documentation or demonstration of a "th" special character as part of any standard IBM Press Roman type ball. or any evidence of a special military or government IBM Press Roman type ball. (The "th" superscript in Bush's service record is from a fixed width typewriter and is not evidence of such a typeball.)

Thanks

[Cleita]

16. Many typewriters of that era could be set to half space

as well as single space and double space. Using the half space is how we did these things. In my case, as I was often typing figures, I had to put numbers to a certain power, like sqaure and cubed numbers and also degrees like in describing tracts of property. I used the half space to do this. I often did this with percentages to because I liked the way it looked.

[troublemaker]

23. this is precisely the problem with this whole deal

I have also used the Selectric for those things, and more. And that's why I am saying that there has to be a tiny superscript "th" as a special character on the same type ball used to type the document.

It is largely irrelevant whether it was *possible* if it is possible but inconvenient. It was obviously general accepted TANG practice to just type it out, like "111th" because 99% of the time that's how it's handled in the Bush documents. So there was no reason to go through extra steps to make that particular superscript "th" I can think of theories... someone was trying to learn to use a new typewriter's capabilities, or it was some secretary's first day on the job, or whatever... but that kind of inventive explanation is not useful here.

The standard here is NOT that forgery must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt, but that accepting authenticity should require no leaps of faith or intricate stories. The full burden of proof lies with anyone making an allegation. And God knows the burden of proof lies with anyone putting forward a xerox of anything at all.

There has to be a type ball with these characteristics. Assuming it exists, it would be nice if somebody would come forward with it.

[phish420]

42. 'official' records th same width as new docs

To say one is fake would be to say both the new and officially released ones are fake...both 'th's are smaller than the rest of the text in the document, so to say the ones the whitehouse released was from a fixed width (which I believe you mean all leters are the same size and take the same space), is false, as the 'th' is obviously much smaller than the rest of the document.
Here is the official white house released document:

compare the 'th'in 111th with the ht in fighter. fixed width? No.
Here is the new document:


The 4's in the official release are also 'baseless' like the new docs.

[papau]

59. The "Roman" ball was 3rd party as I recall - the key purchase is for the

Excutive - not the Selectric. 4 keys were on offer in 65 in my office.

The normal Selectric could not do proportional spacing and is not the typewriter used for much in these docs.

The Executive with or without extra keys could do all thatis in the docs.

The IBM Selectric Composer could do all that is in these docs.

By the Way - we did not get into buying extra "balls" until late 60's early 70's - I can't really recall the date I saw the "Roman" ball on offer (and it was odd since the Roman was defined I though for proportional - indeed it was an option on the composer, which did proportional).

At least some Selectric balls did come with the "th" - and you are correct re "fixed width typewriter" as the non-composer Selectric was fixed width.

[Nederland]

76. No it can't

The IBM Composer does not have enough proportional variance to produce a document that matches the CBS document.

[yardwork]

78. How can you possible tell?

Have you seen the original documents? All I've seen are fuzzy pdf files that look like they were copied multiple times. It's hard to tell anything about the spacing between letters and words.

I can see - clear as a bell - that the letters and characters don't line up on the horizontal line. Hold a straight edge under any phrase in any of the CBS documents. The words and numbers jump all over the horizontal line. How could a word processor do that?

They look like they were typed on a typewriter to me. I was a secretary in the early 1980s, using vintage 1970s IBM Selectrics.

[Nederland]

79. Kerning

Its not the horizontal line that concerns me, its the vertical. The CBS docs display clear evidence of kerning. To my knowledge, nobody has come up with a type writer of that era that does kerning. I'm happy to be wrong on this, but until someone comes up with a machine that can reproduce this document I'm skeptical.

[joefree1]

2. All good points

Thanks for the post. By the way do you think the trolls ever marvel at the free discussions here on DU as opposed the "echo chamber" toxic diatribes over at Freak Republic?

Yeah, probably not. Nobody over at Freak Republic would know what "diatribes" mean.

[BeatleBoot]

3. Your link doesn't work and the Typewriter was an

IBM Selectric

As CBS reported this a.m.

[pinkpops]

7. cbs reported this AM - on TV or what?

[phish420]

43. The link works - take off the trailing comma in address bar...n/t

[robcon]

4. I'm beginning to see this as a loser issue.

From what I've read, CBS will soon have to admit the papers were a forgery. The longer it takes for CBS to do that, the longer this issue stays in the news. CBS's competitors will continue to hammer on the issue.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmerDem]

15. OOOHH look at this another REPUKE TALKING POINT POST!

WOW, this must really have them shitting themselves. The fascist Bush Mafia is way in over their heads at this point. they can hardly contain the lies anymore and we have 2 months until the fake in charge is ousted and looked into for criminal activity!

[Cheswick2.0]

28. LOL

Yeah, okay.

Bush is losing points in the polls, this is great true or not. But clearly the documents are real. To pretend otherwise is pointless.

[alarcojon]

40. Do you have a link?

Please provide it.

on edit: I meant to reply to # 4

[saracat]

6. Whats wrong with you?

The documents are not fake. And any real progressive would be supporting Dan Rather , and defend the integrity of his investigation. He is the last of the "real" journalists and you slam him? That is just sick!

[spooky3]

8. Notice that neither of the anti-Rather posters offered any evidence.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[abrock]

20. I smell a rat.

Do you not realize that Times New Roman has been in use for 75+ years, and that Microsoft Word was modelled after the best typewriters, just in digital form? Or are you specifically trying to stir up trouble, because that is exactly what it looks like.

There is no way to prove, or even provide evidence for the supposition, that the documents are fake at this point. It is impossible.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[girl gone mad]

30. I actually ttied that.

And I could not get a match with out stretching the text in both directions. Even then, it was an imprecise match.

I tried 3 different versions of Word.

Can you tell me which you used. I can upload the images I created if you are interested.

[AmerDem]

33. don't expect it

This has been shown as a fraud from day one.Tthe freeptards continue to hold onto this because it's the only talking point they feel may fool the public into think shrub isn't the coward crook he appears to be!

[LiberalFighter]

47. They say they compared with Word but...

they never provide their proof.

They think their Word is good enough.

[demwing]

34. The match is NOT perfect

Its merely close. Further, a close match is to be expected. Word was designed to be a close match to the IBM typewriters. If you remember correctly, Microsoft got its start writing software for IBM.

[girl gone mad]

49. What I'm saying is that..

I believe what's being passed off on LGF and other web sites as a match between a Word document and the memos is itself a forgery, in that at least one of the images has been grossly manipulated to make that perfect fit.

[demwing]

54. Thats cool GGM, I was actually responding to the freep

who has now been tombstoned.

You're comparison shows the differences quite well. Close, but no where near identical.

[girl gone mad]

55. I know you were..

but he was already gone and I had wanted to clarify my statement.

:)

[girl gone mad]

53. Here's what I got when I tried to reproduce the document..

Using MS Word 2002.



Here's what I get after stretching the Word document 12% and lining up the margins:

[gatorboy]

41. Perhaps you can show us?

Since you already went through the work...Post it for us....

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roseBudd]

9. I think a Killian mistress produced the documents

and was there when they were produced

[robcon]

22. Huh? What does the FACT of whether the documents are fake...

have ANYTHING to do with being a progressive. They are genuine or fakes. The facts have no spin.

[troublemaker]

11. only upside is that casual viewers keep hearing "Bush service record" and

"forgery" tied together over and over.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iceburg]

39. Stop whining

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmerDem]

19. I'm begining to see a LOSER!

get it!

[Cheswick2.0]

27. yeah, so?

How does any of that make this a loser issue? This is all free campaign adds. Kerry's camp is not doing this, they have nothing to lose. However the more people talk about it the more people wonder if the docs are real (they are), the more they wonder of bush is a fraud (he is).

This nothing but good for Democrats.
Republicans are the losers here.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

50. Why would they have to admit the papers are a forgery?

The burden of proof is on those screaming forgery and they haven't proven shit.

[papau]

60. What are you reading? - major media has caved - CBS wins

The composer purchase orders by the miltary are out there (albeit that no one has shown a shipping to a given base).

That is a Gold Standard proof of docs "could have" been produced.

Likewise the Executive proportional was everywhere on bases in the 60's.

Indeed I am hard pressed to think of something that is still at issue as to the "could have" or even the "likely".

But the final proof is in the silence of the White House.

[goodhue]

61. What have your read?

Whatever it is, it is wrong.
The documents are real.

[Snivi Yllom]

67. you noticed huh

It starves the oxygen from real issues that need the airtime.

It allows the * team to run out the clock AND stay on offense.

[vadood]

71. You are correct

It's sad but it does appear that the honorable Mr. Rather was duped. Possibly by a double-agent from the Dark side.

There are too many discrepancies on the memos. The fact that Microsoft Word with its default settings produces a picture perfect duplicate of the memos is quite damning in and of itself. Occam's razor and all.

[Iceburg]

12. Superscripts ... how to from the IBM Selectric Manual

From page 56 of the IBM Selectric Composer Operating Manual ...
at http://www.ibmcomposer.org/docs/Electronic%20Composer%20Operating%20Instructions.pdf


And let us not forget the 4 Sep 1968 entry on page 11 (line 2) of the set of documents released by the Whitehouse that contains the subscript "th"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/10-2_2000_Personnel_File.pdf

OMG --- Were these documents forged by the Whitehouse?

More importantly ...


1. Did family connections get George W. Bush his coveted National Guard slot?

2. Did Lt. Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer(to report to Ellingtom AFB no later 14 May 1972 to conduct a physical)

3. Was Lt. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to National Guard standards?

4. Did Lt. Bush ever take the physical he was required to take?

5. Did Lt. Bush complete his commitment to National Guard?

[troublemaker]

26. All true, but not useful to answer the actual question involved

Of course you can superscript on a Selectric. (As you can on any other typewriter) But rotating the platen or raising the type ball do not change the type size. The "th" has to be a special character (like an accent or Greek symbol) that can be used while typing in Press Roman without doing anything complicated like changing balls

The other superscript "th" on Bush's service record is plainly a special key just as I am describing, but there is no reason to think it's from an IBM. The existence of special "th" keys on specialty typewriters is not in dispute.

The question is whether an available proportionally spaced typewriter in government/military use had a dedicated "th" key. It's a straightforward question. I hope somebody has one in hand to demonstrate on TV early this week, because it would be very useful.

I am not saying they are forged. I am saying that the various proofs and debunkings flying around are junk. Those statement are not the same thing.

[Nederland]

68. Exactly

I'm waiting as well...

[Hepburn]

13. Wow...

...what a great find. Thanks! :bounce:

[John_H]

14. None of this matters: If whores say they're fake, they might as well be.

Sorry, my brothers and sisters, it doesn't matter a lick that it took a schlub like me one phone call to find out the truth--that the Executive Model D could do the whole thing.

In the minds of most of the fucking fools who have the nerve to call themselves citizens, the docs are fake.

[Iceburg]

24. I beg to differ ... I checked about 20 local (on-line) papers

in the battleground states and they were all carrying/posting the CBS version of the story.

Turn off CNN and FOX and you would be surprised at what is really going on.

USAToday has added to the firestorm by adding 2 new incriminating memos about bush. (see pages 1 & 5) at
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-09-09bushdocs.pdf

[Generic Other]

44. Those do not look like good reports

I believe these documents are real for one reason. Whenever an administrator has to deal with a subordinate who has broken rules and may face disciplinary action, the first thing they always tell you to do is to "document" the problem to cover your own ass later. Write it down. Without this paper trail, Killian could be accused of negligence in his own command.

If any of us worked with GW Bush ever, I have a feeling we'd all "document" our interactions for our own peace of mind.

I guess when our teachers told us to behave because it was all going in our permanent records, Bush should have listened. You can't erase everything.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. This is a winning issue

The longer people talk about it the worse bush looks.

[troublemaker]

32. Serious question: Did the Executive model D have a "th" special character?

I would like to know because people keep saying the Executive Model D can make the documents, but I haven't seen confirmation of a dedicated "th" character. Did the ExecD have variable point sizes that didn't require changing type elements, or a special character, or what?

Thanks.

[Cha]

35. Buck Up! Don't be a defeatist!

I can understand you because of previous evidence of the failure of getting the story out.

But, We Must Never Give Up!

[girl gone mad]

31. Please check out..

my thread on this topic if you are interested.

I have compiled a lot of information, and come to the same conclusion as you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x796370#796594

[Cha]

38. Thanks for this...I've been going back

and forth between the two threads.

[Rhiannon12866]

36. Thank you! I saw Dan Rather asserting that the documents were authentic,

and never doubted that they really were, but it's great to know exactly what the critics are saying and having the facts with which to refute them. Thanks!:-)

[Iceburg]

37. Time Mag: The X Files Of Lt. Bush

The X Files Of Lt. Bush

A flurry of contested memos and memories sheds more heat than light on his record
Monday, Sep. 20, 2004
Journalists and politicos have been trying off and on for a decade now to suss out exactly what George W. Bush did in the National Guard more than 30 years ago. The basic facts are not very mysterious: Bush got a coveted homeland gig in the Guard, just as many other well-connected college graduates did, while hundreds of thousands of other young men got drafted and sent to Vietnam. Ever since Bush ran for Texas Governor in 1994, details of the subplot have dribbled out, suggesting that he was a slacker in his later days as a pilot in the Guard and may not have fulfilled his obligations to the military. Bush has prolonged the intrigue by never fully answering questions about his service.
more ...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040920-695873,00.html
-------------------
Ha ha .. this story has more legs than a centipede

[crickets]

72. Sweet!

Overall, the TIME article is damning. I especially like this comment:

"With critics of Democratic challenger John Kerry raising unsubstantiated claims that he exaggerated his heroism as a swift-boat commander in Vietnam, the matter of Bush's own service is back in the spotlight."

As it should be.

[Bimini_Twisted]

46. Kerry needs to thank the bushbots across the country

country for paying so much attention to this document. If there was not so much controversy around wether it is legitimate or not the entire issue of bush’s service during that time would have faded. The ironic twist of karma is that by putting so much emphasis on the document the republicans have insured that this issue and period of time will be fully investigated by CBS’s competitors and have guaranteed that it will stay on the front burner and the front pages from now until the election. I doubt that bush supporters believe that focusing on W’s service record during the Vietnam era is a good thing for bush. They have opened the proverbial Pandora’s box and the fun has just started. HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA HA, HA:7

[goodhue]

51. This hoax that "superscript" and "proportional spacing" was not available

on typewriters in the early 1970s is pure bullshit!

Indeed!

I'm amazed that some many including some here on DU fell for it.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rhiannon12866]

56. Thanks! This is a great post! I appreciate all the info and the links

But what is with all the deleted messages? Surely, no one on DU believes that the documents regarding Bush*'s lack of military service were not authentic? :shrug:

[kid a]

57. kickin

[oasis]

58. Bush Worshippers Professional Liars Club. dandy name.

[girl gone mad]

62. Look at this...

What do you guys make of it?

From May 1971.

A woman was expecting to run a successful small business making $150 a week to type up documents from home.

Also, look at the heading on the sample at the bottom of that page. Perfectly centered, like the RW bloggers keep telling us is impossible.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Rx68HQB7WYAJ:www.motherearthnews.com/index.php%3Fpage%3Darc%26id%3D5307+%22press+roman%22+font&hl=en

Edit: I just re-read the article and it said $150 a MONTH would cover her overhead! Meaning the typewriter could be leased fairly inexpensively.

[girl gone mad]

63. Guess what?

I typed the header in 12 point arial font using Word, then centered and overlayed it onto the original.

Can you even tell?




Another freeper argument blown out of the water. The composer was capable of exact centering.

[oasis]

65. Great work. "Another freeper argument blown out of the water".

[Protected]

69. Err, folks

I'm sorry, but that text is being rendered by your web browser.

[Nederland]

73. No its not

Its a jpeg image

[Protected]

74. Girl gone mad's screenshot is

But the actual text on the page is HTML.

Here's the code for it, copied and pasted from the source of
the page that was linked:

            <table border="1"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5"
width="400" height="32"
bordercolor="#000000" align="left">
              <tr>
                <td>
                  <div align="center">
                    <p>THE HANSEN COMPOSING
SERVICE<br>
                      1401 Riverside Avenue<br>

                      Kansas City, Kansas 66119</p>
                    <p
align="left"><b>ANNOUNCING THE HANSEN
COMPOSING SERVICE!</b></p>
                    <p align="left">We'd like
you to know that Kansas City now 
                      has a new, low-cost typesetting service
that is eager to 
                      please.</p>
                    <p align="left">The Hansen
Composing Service is right here 
                      in town and just a phone call away. And,
since SERVICE is 
                      our last name, we're ready to work all
night to help you 
                      meet those tight deadlines you get from
time to time.</p>
                    <p align="left">Samples of
our work and the type fonts we 
                      have in stock are enclosed. Please look
'em over and give 
                      us a chance to quote on your next job.
You'll be glad you 
                      did.</p>
                    <p
align="left">Sincerely,</p>

                    <p align="left"><img
src="/menarch/archive/issues/009/009_images/009-032-01.gif"
width="150" height="34"><br>
                      Janice Hansen</p>
                    <p align="left">
</p>
                  </div>
                </td>
              </tr>
            </table>

[Nederland]

75. You're right

I'm begining to believe this whole thing will blow up in our faces.

People around here have been centering solely on the earliest points about proportional spacing and superscipts and how they have been debunked. Meanwhile, the conservative blog community has proceeded to debunk the debunking, addressing ever point we've raised. For example, there now is incontrovertable proof that an IBM Composer could not have produced the CBS documents because there are only 7 possible portional font widths and the CBS document cannot be reproduced using only them. I'm afraid people around here just watch CBS defend its position, cheered and moved on.

[starroute]

64. Found some very similar text from 1962

This is from a 1964 issue of a fanzine called Niekas and would have been typed on an IBM Executive

The font is not a 100% match to the memo -- the tail of the "y" on the memos is a little more extended, the lower loop of the "g" is more squared off, the top of the "r" is more angled. But it's damn close, especially in the capital letters. Look especially at the very rounded "G" in "Glossary" and at the initial capitals in "Houghton Mifflin, Boston."

Also, the slightly ragged look of the lines is very similar. This is the main reason I've kept arguing that the memoes were probably done on an Executive and not an IBM Composer. The Composer produced print-quality type. (We owned one in the 1980's and set several books on it.) The Executive did not.

[OilemFirchen]

70. Wow. Typewritten JUSTIFIED text from 1964.

With a copyright symbol even.

They musta gotten a typewriter from Roswell.

Did they even have blue paper back then?

</sarcasm>

[Must_B_Free]

66. Thanks for defining our message for us New Comer

Instead of "the messages are authentic" they are "NOT fake".

This has the same effect as "I am not a crook".

Really smart of you to think of that. I have been seeing this headline for 24 hours now.

[AngryAmish]

77. It is so easy to prove the genuineness of these docs

1. Produce the originals and prove they have indentations.

2. Produce the ball with the superscript with TNR.

When this is done we win.

Dan Rather has had a long and legendary career. Who are those weblog retards to question Dan Rather? Don't they know who he is?

[ArnoldLayne]

80. kick

:kick: