if the Dems can't beat Bush, they can't beat anybody

[Nordic]

Bush is the worst president in the history of the country, such an obvious incompetent failure at everything he's ever done, a documented liar, a murderer and a thief, he is in fact a walking sack of shit and everybody knows it .......

Yet we're worried about losing? There's a CHANCE that we might not actually beat this fuckwad?

THAT, folks, is pathetic. If the Democrat party can't get their shit together enough to beat this utter LOSER, the Democratic party should probably give up and cease to exist.

Time to start over.

Who's with me?

If we lose in November, let's start a new party. Being a Democrat at that point will be utterly meaningless.

With that in mind, let's not let it happen!

[movonne]

1. Not me!!!!

[kentuck]

2. Anybody ??

Do you think Barney Fife could beat him? Barney was more honest...and smarter. :)

[Nordic]

3. yeah, anybody!

C'mon, it's like Kerry's running against Charles Manson and he might not win.

If we can't beat Bush, we couldn't beat Charles Manson!

[Booster]

4. It's the media I tell ya. Without them telling people

the truth, all is lost.

[Nordic]

7. but the Dems won't be able to blame anybody

Seriously, I'm with you on the media thing, the media is obviously in the chimp's side, but the Dems HAVE to figure out how to deal with that, whether that means more 527's or buying their own media outlets, or whatever, or staging stunts that the media WILL actually pay attention to.

I don't know how they have to do it, but they HAVE to do it.

[girl gone mad]

38. I don't think we can keep blaming the media.

We need to have people smart enough to game the system.

I'm working hard for Kerry, and I feel confidant.

I will say, though, if we lose this election, it's time for a change starting at the top. Heads must roll, strategies and tactics must change.

[Nordic]

55. "We need to have people smart enough to game the system."

Exactly. That's my point.

thank you

[WI_DEM]

5. Wrong

If we don't win this year it isn't because we couldn't beat Bush, but because we beat ourselves.

[Leilani]

10. If, & that is a huge if,

we don t win, how did we beat ourselves?

I have NEVER seen the grassroots excitement, energy, work, done by people this year. The fundraising has been amazing! We stayed even with the Republicans.

And through the use of internet, grassroots have done more this election than I have ever seen.

So how could we have done anymore?

[WI_DEM]

47. I agree

but all the polls this year up to the GOP convention have shown Bush vulnerable--he still is. He definitely is beatable especially with his job approval numbers and direction of the country numbers. If Kerry loses and I agree it is too early to say he will. It is because we will have blown it in some way. But we will have to see how it goes on November 2nd. Bush can and should be beat this year and we really have no excuse if we don't.

[Leilani]

50. I agree with you, too.

If, if we do not win, something will have gone wrong, seriously wrong.

He is the worst Prez of my lifetime, & that includes Nixon.

I am trying to be optimistic; if the worst should happen, there will be plenty of time for post-mortems.

[Democat]

6. It's the current state of the Democratic Party - we need new leadership!

The current leadership has proved how pathetic they are time after time.

First we need to get Kerry elected, then we need to start replacing the cowardly wimpy career Dems with some people who are willing to fight for what they claim to believe in.

The first step is to stop Bush and we do that by getting Kerry elected. Then we can move on to cleaning house. :)

[Nordic]

8. but if Kerry is elected they'll say "look, we knew what we were doing"

when we all know that if Kerry wins it will because Bush is such a goddamn loser.

[Democat]

11. No matter what they will say, Kerry has to win for the Supreme Court and..

Bush must be stopped. No matter what some of us think of the state of the Democratic Party, Bush is the main problem that needs to be dealt with right now. Once Bush loses the election, then other things will become important. Until Bush is gone, everything must be focused on that battle.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nordic]

29. there are a lot of Dems worth hating

and if there are Dems who lose us this election, when it should be the easiest one to win in the last hundred years, yeah, I'm gonna be fucking PISSED OFF.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nordic]

36. I suggest you put down the liquor bottle

and go to bed. Tomorrow you'll wonder why you have all these deleted posts.

[girl gone mad]

40. Sound advice. n/t

[kentuck]

9. But look what happens when we get a good candidate like Dean, ie...

They tear him down as insane and a screamer - not having the stature to be president...So there is drawback to being a passionate fighter, it seems? Therein lies our problem...Perhaps the solution is to pretend to be a Republican?? :)

[Nordic]

39. Well, you forget that Kerry beat Dean prior to "the scream"

Dean was only labelled "psycho" after the scream, which was AFTER Kerry surprised everybody by beating Dean in Iowa.

There is still plenty of support for someone who tells the truth.

Look at F911. There's a reason it made $100 million bucks and counting. People are hungry for the truth.

To have the attitude "we're damned if we play nice and damned if we get passionate" means we're totally paralyzed by fear.

Fear is the enemy, always.

[Old and In the Way]

12. That's a great idea!

Can we call it the "Another Party"?

Because, Another Party surely will fare better in our system than the Democratic Party! The corporate media will respect and listen to Another Party. The Republicans will most certainly change their agenda of turning American into a one-Party country and work in the spirit of bi-partisan fellowship with Another Party.

Of course all the people in the Democratic Party will have to join Another Party if it's to have any chance of succeeding. But, really, what has the Party of FDR, the New Deal, Civil Rights, and War on Poverty done for us lately? Surely, Another Party will solve all of our problems.

[Bread and Circus]

No shit, the premise of your thread is insanely true and scary...

if we can't beat Bush, then the Dem party literally can't beat a pile of dogshit.

[Big Blue Marble]

13. This discussion is insane.

We need to be discussing how we win this election. Why are so many here giving up on this race? I have never seen anything like this even last election with Gore, we were fighting up to the end and beyond. It is as if the Bushies have infected your brains. Keep focused on the seven or so weeks ahead. If we lose, there will be four years for recriminations and regrets. This is the time for action. I thought that is why we have a DU as a place to gather and build morale not a place to sink into a pit of despair

[dad]

14. With Gore, we were fighting up to the end and beyond

Too bad Gore and Lieberman themselves didn't want to fight for
it.

[Nordic]

18. I'm not giving up. This election may be the last one for the US ever!

If we don't win, you can kiss democracy in the United States goodbye forever.

It's THAT important.

We need to light a fire under the ass of the Democratic "leadership" and tell them we'll tar and feather them if they don't win this goddamn fight.

[CityDem]

33. I agree

Can we at least wait until nov 3rd to write Kerry's obituary? If we lose, then we can start talking about new directions.

[girl gone mad]

43. I see it more as inspirational..

and honest.

It's time to stop blaming the media and Rove and get busy winning the election.

[phish420]

15. We're not trying to beat Bush - Its Rove

Rove is the mastermind of the election campaign operation. No matter what Bush does, Rove finds a good spin on it. THAT is the enemy. Dont get me wrong. Bush is bad...evil...but Rove is the one making all of shrub's wrongs right through the mastery of spin. That is why this election is so difficult.

[AlCzervik]

16. It's the whole corporation named George Bush

[Nordic]

17. no, if we lose, we can't blame ANYbody

that's my whole point. We can't blame Rove, the corporate right wing media, Bush's dirty, tricks, any of it.

We have to find a way to win, and then do it.

No excuses.

This should NOT be a close election. Not close whatsoever.

The fact that it is right now speaks volumes for the effectiveness of the Democratic party.

We need to get scared, we need to tell the democratic "leadership" that they'd better fucking win, or they're gonna fuck themselves, and us, and the entire country, up the ass.

Let's get scared and do something about it

[Ell09]

25. I agree with a lot of your points

But I don't think being behind today, by less than ten points, to a sitting president is necessarily a bad sign. I don't remember all the details, but I can't believe many challengers have ever been ahead of a sitting president at this stage of a campaign.

I posted before that I am done blindly voting for the Democratic Party if the Party fails to win this election. I would never vote for a Republican, but I would consider a Green Party vote. I live in Iowa and explained my vote for John Kerry in a long post a few months ago. One of the reasons many people liked Kerry at the time of the caucuses was how well he would stack up to Bush in the debates. If there's one thing that's disappointed me about Kerry, it's that he seems to be regressing, instead of progressing, as a public speaker. He needs to get a message, and work that message, and stick to a script that is clear and concise. We seem to be losing the battle, because we refuse to stoop to the levels that the Bush/Cheney team is willing to go to. The general public believes both sides are running negative campaigns, so we should actually run some negative ads since the perception is there anyways. TO HELL WITH FOCUS GROUPS AND OPINION POLLS! The Republicans keep their pro life, anti gun control, anti gay rights, anti affirmative action platforms and they steal from middle America independent voters with scare tactics on taxes and terrorism. If the Democratic Party can't come through with a message to those voters in this election, a MAJOR overhaul.

[seabeyond]

19. i am not worried about losing

i dont believe those larger polls that have come out. i believe so many people are going to be registering and coming out to vote to get bush out. i do not hear people joyous for bush but the fundies around me. and i see more groups not supporting bush that did in 2000.

i just really believe bush is not going to win

i am not worried (very often, seldom, lol lol)

[Nordic]

20. today I found out all my in-laws are voting for Bush

that lit a fire under my ass, let me tell you.

So you can "believe" all you want, but I'm not gonna believe shit until November 3

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nordic]

30. Are you calling me names?

I don't think that's permitted here.

[sandnsea]

34. Did I?

Nope. Didn't call you a thing. Nice try though.

[Nordic]

37. you enjoy having your messages deleted?

does it "make you feel better" Cheney?

[seabeyond]

31. why your in laws are voting for bush has nothing to do with

kerry and kerry's campaign, betcha anything. bet they are conservatives and have always voted repug. bet they think bush is an honest christian spirit led man. bet they havent listened to kerry at all or very little. bet they dont know much at all about kerry. bet they have no interesting in finding anything out about kerry

sounds to me it has to do with your in laws and not kerry, or bush for that matter, that they dont bother to find out what bush is about, or they know, and they still want bush

[Eric J in MN]

21. If we don't win, there are at least two reasons which can change.

1) Republicans control the media.
2) Rigged voting machines.

We're trying to change #1 with Air American and Al Gore TV, and we're supposed to have paper ballots for voting machines starting in 2006.

[lapfog_1]

22. I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here

While I agree that * is the worst pResident to ever occupy
the office, it doesn't follow that he is easily beatable, and
here is why:

1) * is one of the most dishonest people to every run for any office,
which is to say, he (with Karl Rove) plays a very dirty game. If
Kerry was running against McCain or Arrrnold or someone, I don't
think we would have seen the Swift Boat smear... and like it or not,
people grub that crap up.

2) * activates his "base"... and ours. Yet to be seen which
one is more effective. Very few "moderate" rethugs would get the
"Left Behind" crowd out to vote. And while * is somewhat of a
disappointment to the more reasoned and moderate of the rethuglican
party (especially the isolationist and fiscal conservatives), I
suspect most will cross their fingers and pull the ballot lever for
shrubya. They do love their tax cuts, and they know that the Bush
social agenda (ownership society, etc) is mere window dressing for
the real agenda, the undoing of all of the New Deal and Great
Society programs of the last 70 years, the destruction of which
is near and dear to their black mean spirited hearts for decades
now.

3) * is a "war time" encumbent... at least that is what he and
his crowd are trying to sell the public. It's difficult to unseat
a war time president, even if people think the direction we are
headed is wrong.

4) * owns the media... and they shape opinions in the US.

5) * is using a fear and a "Rambo" reaction to his advantage.
People want someone to blame and for the US to be "taking names
and kicking butt" in reaction to 9/11. And like it or not, *
is seen as being a man of action and determination. A lot of
people may think that he isn't very bright or articulate, but
they like that he is "doing something" about terrorists. Plus,
no matter HOW much we say Saddam and 9/11 - no connection, they
keep on message that the war on terror and the war in Iraq are
the same thing. And they've been very effective in the message.

6) * is seen as being a "regular" guy. Kerry is seen as a bit
more "elitist" and "intellectual"... all of which is suspicious
to the Nascar Dads. After all, THEY aren't that smart, and they
don't like turning the country over to people that are smarter
than they are.

7) There is a some HUGE disconnects in our society... For example
people HATE lawyers, especially trial lawyers (those bastards
got OJ off scott free), UNTIL they need one. Then they LOVE
THEIR lawyer and don't care that the lawyer is working for a
forty percent contingency fee. Lot's of people SAY they want
the candidates to discuss the issues, but can't wait for a
sex scandal or accusation about something in someone's past.
And on and on. This appeal to our baser instincts works in *'s
favor, as he IS the baser candidate.


I could probably find a half dozen other reasons that * is a
tough candidate to defeat... general education levels in the
US, etc. etc.

Yes, Kerry should win, I hope that he does, I put a lot of
money (for me) into his winning this one. I think he will
win. But if won't be an easy win. Nor should ANYONE here think
different.

[Fed Up]

23. We should copy Reagan's campaign against Jimmy Carter.

To see how they did it, and caused a landslide. That would give a lot of clues on how to bludgeon this turd once and for all.

[DaveSZ]

24. "THAT, folks, is pathetic."

Yep.

Not a democrat here, but am for Kerry.

[Nordic]

27. Did you vote in 1980? It was NOT a landslide at all

there was a guy named John Anderson, third party guy, who ran as an independent and took a lot of Carter's votes.

The vote was very close, but uniform

[formernaderite]

35. Bull.....if we can't beat Bush this time...it's the candidate.

Actually it's the candidate not running as a progressive....and trying to hide behind a moderate stance. Few seem to get that this means the electorate doesn't see much difference, and therefore opts to keep that status quo in place.

[Nordic]

42. I'm afraid you're probably right. BUT. We can have no excuses!

We have to win. I think many here are missing my point.

We cannot lose this, and we cannot let the Democratic "leadership" lose it for us.

If we have to take to the streets, or whatEVER, we have to make sure we win this thing.

[Guaranteed]

51. Make no mistake...the voters did this.

They voted for who they wanted to vote for in the primary, right or wrong.

Although I do think that the media basically brainwashed them into it.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

41. You have a point, but it's not the whole picture. It's true that Bush is

a very, very weak candidate and president (that is why we, all lurking trolls aside, are all so strongly against him). I happen to believe that Kerry is a very good candidate as well.

But the reason Bush seems to have at least an even shot at this now is not because Kerry sucks or Bush is good, it's the money and machine behind Bush and that includes the media. It's rather discouraging but that is the fact.

[Nordic]

44. it may be a fact, but it's also an excuse

that is my entire point.

We can have no excuses. We cannot take defeat for an answer.

Bush is a danger to the world, and to us, and he's gotta go!

If we have to take over the Democratic party ourselves

[DaveofCali]

48. Exactly!!! NO EXCUSES!!!

Imagine if the Military was like this!!! This kind of defeatist attitude! America would not have the most powerful military in the world!

We may not be able to control the media initially, but everyone against Bush, and that includes people in Hollywood, and the News Media, and limousine liberals, could all come together and collaborate and implement grand strategy TO be able to get much more control in the News Media, enough so that our side can be heard once and for all!!! Of course though, this takes a great leader and a lot of collaboration and cooperation, but it CAN be done!

[Nordic]

53. thanks, Dave. I'm glad somebody gets it

We simply cannot sit back and expect others to do the job.

I see too much of the "Kerry knows what he's doing" type of threads now.

I live in California, and I SURE AS HELL didn't think Arnold would be our governor. But now he is.

You can take nothing for granted.

Never underestimate the sheer stupidity of the voters.

[digno dave]

45. Who is the Democratic Party? Why, IT's US!!!

We nominated the guy, it wasn't Terry Mcauliffe or Nancy Pelosi ot Tom Dashcle. It was us!!! We nominated a NE liberal elitist waffler so now we are stuck with him.

[DaveofCali]

49. So make lemonade out of lemons!

Well of course, Kerry's no lemon, but Bush's situation is very much a very sour lemonade, that Karl Rove has been able to successfully turn (with an incredible amount of sugarcoating) into lemonade!

Kerry's faults could easily be turned to lemonade!

[Nordic]

54. yes, this election should not be about Kerry, but BUSH

Bushco has successfully turned all of the conversations around to be about Kerry, when in fact Bush is the worst president over, the most incompetent idiotic failure of a president the world has ever seen.

80% of the people should vote for a goddamn cantaloupe over Bush.

If the people aren't getting this, we aren't doing our job

[T Town Jake]

46. "If we lose in November, let's start a new party"...and

"If the Democrat (emphasis added) party can't get their shit together enough to beat this utter LOSER, the Democratic party should probably give up and cease to exist."

...Wow...says it all...Ralph, is that you? ...<snicker>...

What complete and utter bullshit.

[Nordic]

52. OMIGOD you're right. I'm a troll!

How very, astute of you, it's eerie! You must be clairvoyant.

NOT.

:eyes: