Well it must have been a dream, I could have sworn we won that election

[Peacetrain]

But reading tonight, I guess we didn't .

A. Because we are not supposed to have any inaugeration ceremonies.

B. Obama is breaking his promises (not even in office yet) but we need to hold his feet to the fire

C. He is not making the right cabinet choices...He has too many Clinton people.. no no.. He should have more Clinton people.. We are all Clinton haters, as soon as we get finished being Obama haters

D. There are not enough progressives being picked, Hispanics, Women, Gay, Straight, White, Black and where are the Asians?? and there will be hell to pay if it does not get straightened out as of yesterday

~whew~ I don't think we know how to be winners.

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. Peacetrain.....

:spray:

:fistbump:

:popcorn:

[firedupdem]

2. Sad isn't it? It's really sad. n/t

[question everything]

3. Or, rather, why come to a political blog if not to inflame

and be inflamed?

Can you imagine everyone is just happy with the ongoing events and agreeing with everyone? On DU?

Sigh.

[csziggy]

4. And some are worried we won't have anything to talk about here on DU...

[NanceGreggs]

5. K, R, and the whole nine ...

... :kick:

[MadMaddie]

31. Ditto!

[Skwmom]

6. Based on what I'm seeing, I have remind myself which candidate actually won.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell.

[MadMaddie]

45. I know

We seem to be in bizarro world!

[Webster Green]

7. Democrats don't march in lockstep while holding pitchers of Kool-Aid..

No big deal.

BTW...this is a political discussion board.

Caution: You may encounter political discussions taking place. :eyes:

[treestar]

26. Thank you for putting all the fallacies in place and summarizing them

No one suggests lockstep they just suggest not pissing on a victory.

[John Q. Citizen]

27. How is someone disagreeing with an appointment or whatever, pissing on a victory?

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Obama broke his promise on FISA before he was elected. Time to get used to people not liking

being misled.

And time to disabuse yourself of the idea that just because you think everything is hunky dory that everyone agrees with you, even other Dems.

It's perfectly OK for you to have your rather odd opinions, just as it's perfectly OK for others to have their own rather odd opinions. Don't take it personal.

Winning an election is not an end in itself. It's just the beginning. If you prefer to have no opinion other than the opinion you think Obama has on any issue, that's fine with me.

[Peacetrain]

9. Hit a nerve?

[John Q. Citizen]

17. Not that i knew of. Sorry., I wasn't intending to inflict pain.

Only to point out that not everyone believes it's in Obama's best interest or the countries best interests to suspend judgment.

This is what your OP is about, right?

You are surprised that other DUers aren't suspending judgment the way you believe you are?


How long after an election should Americans wait before expressing an opinion that isn't yours? I assume you feel two weeks isn't long enough?

You know, I don't much like Rahm Emanual. Yet i thought Obama putting him in as chief of staff was very smart for a number of reasons. I posted about it. But it doesn't bug me that 2 weeks after the election other DUers are criticizing the Emanuel appointment.

It does seem to bug you. Is it because they disagree with you, or is it because they disagree with Obama's judgment?

[MadMaddie]

32. Do you think Obama would have been elected if he didn't vote

for FISA?

Now that he was elected he will be able to change the policy. If McCain was elected there is absolutely no way in hell it would be changed.

He had to pick his battles.

[John Q. Citizen]

33. I do think he would have been elected either way. I hope he does change it it as soon as he

is in office. I don't believe that my criticism of his flip flop on FISA was or is inappropriate and i don't believe it helped McCain.

I think it's important to be involved and to speak out on matters and issues that we care about.

[Odin2005]

10. I am starting to wonder if we are infested by Naderites showing their true colors.

I am seeing so much Naderite "see, see, there is no difference between the 2 parties, the Democrats are a bunch of Corporatists" it is making me sick :puke:

People seem to forget that behind FDR's hagiographies he originally ran as a centrist in 1932 and only turned leftwards in 1936 as Big Business gave him the shaft and he became afraid that Huey Long would "pull a Nader" and throw the election to the Republicans. And Obama is comming to resemble FDR more and more.

Mark Twain once said "history may not move in a circle, but it rhymes" and FDR said in 1936 "there is a mysterious cycle on human events...".

[John Q. Citizen]

28. The Dems need to give Nader a plum appointment quick! That will show him and his supporters.!

Ha!

It will put Nader in Dems power, just like it did to Joe.

[Odin2005]

29. LOL, you owe me a new keyboard! n/t.

[cosmic _mind]

11. DU was more fun when

people just bashed Bush & Cheney. I think I'll put DU on ignore for a while.

[stillcool]

12. I'm still really excited that Obama won...

It was too long and too hard of a struggle for me not to appreciate what some of us did. I also like to wait to hear from the horses mouth all the who/what/when and where kind of shit. Or at least a named source. The freak-outs on DU seem way too orchestrated for me...the repetitive phrases, as if people can't articulate their opinions without regurgitating the same talking points are pretty good tells.

[mkultra]

13. last efforts of the trolls and puma

[BeFree]

15. They will be crushed

And they will rise again and be crushed again, and again, and again.

Obama has serious enemies and some come around here hoping to carve away some of his friends.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. They will be given prime committee appointments and be humiliated!

Some may even end up being mods!

That will show them!

[mkultra]

38. i would agree that the mods are not doing thier job.

[John Q. Citizen]

40. I wouldn't. I was mocking you. The mods do a great job.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. I have decided to take a "wait and see" attitude.

I am going to wait, at least until the Inauguration, and see how things are gong.

I believe we were all told, by Obama himself, not to expect miracles. I am compelled to
give the Obama administration some time to clean up the mess they were left. In any case,
I am so glad it is the Obama administration and not the Bush or McSame administration, that I
cannot help but be optimistic.

[democracy1st]

16. just the same people that were bit... during the primaries

[John Q. Citizen]

18. i don't think any administration can do it without the active participation of the people.

I get the impression that some DUers beliebve the insurance industry, the military industrial complex, big pharma and the rest of the bloodsuckers are waiting until after the inauguration to get involved.

They aren't. They are right there pushing the PE to do what they want. That's why it's critical that we are in there pushing also, to provide a counter weight for balance.

If we wait, it sends the message that we have time to spare. We don't.

[stillcool]

21. Who are you contacting?

Your state representatives? Perhaps the pressure should be put on them, not to confirm these people that you don't like?

[John Q. Citizen]

24. I'm organizing people to get a health care system that works for us.

Mostly i'm contacting Obama supporters right now because we have a ready supply of the names of people we worked with in the campaign.

We will then be contacting other people to get them involved as well, because health care (in fact issues in general) isn't anywhere nears as polarizing as candidate based electoral politics are. So we think we can get some more support on the health care issue from people who may not have voted for Obama or may not have voted at all.

We have a primary legislative target here in my state, US Senator Max Baucus, who will play a pivotal role in whatever comes down about health care. The more he has to hear from us is the less time he has to spend with insurance executives.

[stillcool]

42. that is wonderful!..

since the election I've fallen off the face of the earth in my little world. It seems like years caught up with me in one day. I feel like I'm in a holding period now, waiting to re-direct my efforts, but I'm not sure they will be in politics at all.

[iamthebandfanman]

19. sure the party won

but liberal ideas still have a long way to go.

this is just one victory of many battles yet to come in the war.

[OHDEM]

22. Obama said that there's work to do.

This is how it's done! At least, if you're not a bunch of sheep. I believe that disagreement and holding our government accountable is our job as winners. :fistbump:

[Trajan]

23. I think there is an inherent problem ....

... with expectations about DU, and forums in general ...

I also feel the misapprehension extends into our place on society itself ...

What do we expect from people ?

What do we want from them ?

Do you want them to think for themselves?, or do you want them to think like you ?

How much autonomy is allowed when we attempt to communicate with each other ? ... Whether we like it or not, our autonomy is an irrefutable fact of nature ... Our differences are vast, and only by the power of PERSUASION can we channel groups of people to think alike, or to move towards a goal in unison ....

I think we all recognize that even our best friends possess many differences from us, and perhaps even a few beliefs that we might find appalling ... Yet on the whole: We accept them ....

If you think about how complex life is, and try to imagine the totality of possible thoughts or ideas that people may have, you will be unable to comprehend such a vast quantity ... such richness and variability ....

Now try to imagine 7 billion people, each harboring a set of thoughts and ideas that reflect THEIR self and personality ..

How large is the set of human ideas for each human being ? ... hundreds ? .... thousands ? .. millions?

How many do groups of people share ? .... Every one ? ... many ? .. some ?

Each of us carries a set of values and beliefs that are hopelessly complex, and our particular set is as individual as a fingerprint ... NONE of us think exactly the same things in the same way ...

We simply cannot expect to agree with everybody in DU ....

And so we cannot be DISAPPOINTED when others have differing opinions from us, because there really is no other choice .... We have no power over those differences, even if we can agree on a number of political positions, and decide to belong to a group that reflects our common values .... We might try to persuade, but it makes no sense to get frustrated by the innumerable differences we find here ...

DU has some 130,000 registrants since 2001 ... Perhaps half or a third might be active ...

Not a SINGLE ONE holds but a very small percentage of the same set of values you possess ...

Like everyone else, I come in here, and find myself getting frustrated with the nature of the statements I find here, but I have to remember: This is a big crowd of people of whom I share very little common values, even if it is a larger set of shared values than I may share with, say, conservatives ....

It is hard to separate what we want from DU from what we expect from DU from what we GET in DU .... This place really isn't much different from a crowded street, full of anonymous and fully autonomous human beings, who either smile or frown as we pass by ... Some might wave and say "HI!", while others might be like Street Preachers who scream at passersby, or mutter curses under the breath as we pass .... Because human nature is the same here as it is everywhere else, we cannot expect different behavior here than everywhere else ...

We have to expect disagreement when we come here ....

What we HAVE to expect from DU is being generally disappointed by our lack of commonality with the various personalities we find here. Even then, we might hope to find an occasional friend or maybe slight acknowledgment that our feelings are shared to some degree, even if we don't agree on everything ...

The idea of building consensus is that we can bring people together for a common cause ... We have built a very tenuous consensus here, and perhaps that is how it will always be ....

We wanted to win control of government, and so we built a consensus, eventually, around Obama ... It was a general consensus that didn't extend much beyond having Obama win ... But NOW what ? .... Now the consensus is split back into the threads of complex personalities that make DU, and the society in general ...

You want Clintonites ? ... You DONT want Clintonites ? .... You love/hate Rahm Emmanuel ? ... You Love/Hate the Big 3 automakers ? ... You Love/Hate the 2nd Amendment ? .... You Love/Hate Pelosi ?

Join the club ....

We actually disagree FAR MORE than we agree on anything, because that is how people are : Hopelessly complex ...

If you want to build consensus, then you would need to persuade others to agree with your view, but I wouldn't depend on that to make me happy ....

One of the great attributes of Obama is his ability to cut beyond the standard boundaries and 'persuade' people to follow him ... to believe in him and what he is going to do .... That is what being a GREAT Leader is all about ...

We have a few personalities in DU that possess an ability to frame ideas and to persuade others to see their point of view .... That is how we create consensus and find agreement .... Even that wont alter the basic nature of human beings to struggle and confront .... DU is a reflection of that nature ....

So I would recommend a pragmatic course for everyone in DU : Do NOT come to DU and expect to find happiness, because it is just as rare here as it is elsewhere ....

Put DU in it's place .... Keep your perspective, and seek happiness elsewhere ...

[qwlauren35]

53. The only thing about DU that disappoints me...

Is the complaints that aren't backed with action. I realize that once something is a done deal, there's not so much than can be done other than to protest. But "we" (us of the "Yes We Can" group) have demonstrated enormous ability to organize and create change.

I guess I just wish I saw more activism, more examples of activism, more rallying cries.

Maybe it's in a subforum.

[BlooInBloo]

25. It's still not clear to me how an unemployed guy can break a job-related promise.

[Undercurrent]

30. LOL

I like that line a lot!

The three former Presidents whom I admire most were Lincoln, FDR, and Kennedy. None were liberal, (although FDR became more so later in his tenure for several reasons), but they all did liberal things. They were mostly centrist. But what they shared was a vision, good political skills, and brilliant minds. Just like the guy we just elected.

So I find all this flapping around squawking about "not liberal enough" missing the point. First, a centrist administration is going to be FAR more to the left than the neocon assholes who have been running us into the ground. Second, a focused, strong intelligent administration will have the ability to accomplish great things.

Third, we didn't elect an ideologue. We elected a made of great depth, and imagination. A strong, natural leader, and who understands the problems we face, and will seek creative solutions. Not something out of the "ready made political thinking" box.

btw: I wish there were a way of discussing political philosophy without using the labels "liberal" "conservative" etc, but I haven't come up with one.

[BlooInBloo]

34. re: Skipping the lib/con labels in poli phi discussions...

It is in fact perfectly possibly, and is in fact done far more often than not. The lib/con labels are really only used by "end users" - the pros might slap a lib/con sticker on the very ending conclusion of their detailed analysis (200 pages of hang-yourself-boredom, typically), if they think about it, or if their work is specifically aimed at end users and not pros.

They really serve no function other than as linguistic flag posts for the redcoats (grr!) and the patriots (yay!) to respectively rally around.

A pro philosopher wouldn't be interested in that. Well, unless they were working on a detailed analysis of some of the vagaries of language use that haven't received a lot of attention. But that's different. :P

[lady raven]

35. One thing that makes me proud to be a Dem...

For the record, I'll say that Obama has NOT disappointed me yet and I hope he won't. I'm holding off judgment until I have seen him on the job for awhile. My vote and my volunteer hours were symbols of the trust I was putting in him and until or unless he really lets me down, he has my trust.

That said, I am really proud to be a Dem. The Repugs don't care about the character or mettle of their leaders, as long as that (R) is next to their name. Their wonderful "President", who has made our country so proud for the last 8 years, spent most of his two terms fiddling as Rome burned, and only near the very end did most of them have anything negative to say about him. Not so for us. We are hypercritical of our leaders and hold them to a higher standard. I'm not sure the hypercritical part is ideal, but I'm proud to be a member of a group of people who are not blind worshippers just based on party. We hold our officials to high standards, and, as a result, have better people among our ranks.

Yes, I think many are being too hard on Obama, but the fact that you are will make him a better President.

[snake in the grass]

36. Don't forget...

...some people haven't gotten their pony yet! Damn you, Obama! Give out the ponies already!

[last_texas_dem]

37. Of course Obama won the election. Otherwise we'd be discussing McCain, right?

But instead we're discussing Obama. And discussion entails both praise and criticism. I'm not sure why so many DUers seem to have a problem with the latter..

[Jennicut]

39. BC tried to make a diverse cabinet, didn't he? It bogged him down

[Recursion]

43. Just repeat after your namesake song:

I've been smiling lately, thinking about the good things to come...

[Peacetrain]

44. You made me smile

:)

Now I've been happy lately,
thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be,
something good has begun

I may post the lyrics tomorrow as a Thanksgiving greeting for all..

[wisteria]

46. Obama has shown he is disloyal and a liar in those he has chosen to snub and those he has welcomed

aboard. He will turn out to be like all the rest and I will not be fooled into voting for him again.

[Bonobo]

47. What a simple ass you are. Won't waste another word on a fool like you.

[Peacetrain]

49. What the heck??

chosen to snub?? Oh Lord.. here we go

[rucky]

48. We don't know how to play anything but the underdog.

It's been awhile.

[TexasObserver]

50. We've learned that winning an election doesn't stop chronic crybabies.

Waaah.

Waaah.

Give them a pacifer. They can whimper themselves to sleep.

[davidpdx]

51. No doubt, but you forgot one

Obama saying he'd keep on Gates as Sec of Defense. People are now flipping out about that as well. The funny thing is Obama said he would consider this and it was widely believed that he WOULD do this. So when it happens, why should people be suprised.

[Peacetrain]

52. Yep, he does exactly what he says he was going to do..

and they call him a liar :shrug:. I have a real hard time following that line of reasoning myself

[davidpdx]

55. He couldn't have been more clear

about it. The people who don't get it, weren't listening.

[fortyfeetunder]

54. Give the man a chance!

I trust his decisions because he has inherited an economic crisis of unprecedented proportions. This is probably not what he expected. So he may have to adjust his approach to the situation.

Obama has to be flexible and we should respect his judgment though we may not agree with all of it.

Give the man a chance!