To all those who worked for Obama to keep Hillary from controlling Foreign Policy....

[Junkdrawer]

Psych

[FrenchieCat]

1. Yep....Psych! She has no control!

This guy does though!

[blm]

8. so I thought until he had his meeting with Bush...ever since....

he's been acting like someone trying to keep his family alive.

[FrenchieCat]

9. Stop being so cynical......

Give him benefit of the doubt....as it is the least you can do, considering that the votes have already been counted. It won't kill you. If you are proven right, I'll be the first one to admit it. OK?

[blm]

12. Why shouldn't I be cynical? You think I've kept my head in the sand re the lengths Bushes

have gone to in order to continue their agenda over the decades?

[gblady]

19. huh?

[sufrommich]

30. They have medication for paranoia now. nt

[blm]

60. Right - Bushes proved to you over the years the left is just 'paranoid' about the extent of what

they will do to keep their agenda on track. The National Security Archives contains ALOT of reason to disagree with YOUR comfortable view of the fascists.

[sufrommich]

66. Proof that Bush is a criminal is not proof that Obama and

his family have been threatened. Only you seem capable of "seeing" it. Jesus.

[blm]

70. I said Obama has been acting like it....why run against the way Bush-Clinton-Bush handled

the foreign policy agenda and wasted serious opportunities for change and then tap HRClinton for SoS within days of meeting privately with Bush?

You really want us to BUY that Bill did NOTHING to protect Bush1, Stephens, Dubai and Saudi royals and other Bush cronies involved in his IranContra, BCCI and CIA drugrunning operations?

Funny how BushInc came back in the late 90s stronger than ever, eh? Yeah....really funny.

[sufrommich]

72. You can "buy" whatever you'd like. You sound like a raving

lunatic when you posit that Obama has been threatened into picking Clinton as SOS.Sometimes things happen that you don't like,it doesn't mean that because life doesn't follow you're version of "the way things should be" it's proof that Obama and his administration has been hijacked by the forces of darkness. Get help.

[blm]

74. Bushes wouldn't do that? New Zealand Prime Minister needs to seek help. Maybe we can get a discount

if we go together on your counsel.

The problem with some of you is that you HAVE NO RECALL of what has gone down the last 4 decades, or the Bushes' roles in it. So, the idea that Bush would send a message to Obama to continue to play ball or else sounds like a fantasy to you. These people are capable of stealing elections and bombing civilians by the hundreds of thousands, and crashing a world economy, but no way would they threaten a new Dem president? Time for some of you to get real.




Former New Zealand chief claims Quayle threatened him

March 28, 2002 Posted: 1:18 PM EST (1818 GMT)
Lange says he faced massive pressure to drop the anti-nuclear policy

By Joe Havely
CNN Hong Kong

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (CNN) -- Former New Zealand Prime Minister David Lange has claimed that ex-U.S. Vice President Dan Quayle threatened to have him "liquidated" over his country's anti-nuclear policy in the 1980s.

The extraordinary allegation was first made in an interview with New Zealand's One News broadcast Tuesday night. Quayle rejected the claim. In an e-mail from Quayle's Phoenix, Arizona, office, Quayle said Lange's allegation was "complete and utter nonsense -- it's so ridiculous it deserves no further comment."

Lange's claim also was described as "preposterous" by the U.S. Embassy in Wellington.

"We would hate to challenge the memory of a former prime minister, but the suggestion that former vice president Quayle threatened to kill him is preposterous," a spokeswoman told CNN.

In the One News interview Lange said the apparent death threat was made by Quayle during a meeting with the Australian cabinet.
CNN.com Asia
More news from our
Asia edition


"There were veiled threats and there were specific threats," he said. "It was announced at one stage to the Australian cabinet that I would have to be liquidated."

After being informed of the alleged threat -- it is unclear by whom -- Lange said he then asked New Zealand's Security Intelligence Service to investigate.

"I enquired of our security sources and was told I shouldn't regard it as a credible threat because the vice president wasn't regarded as credible."
>>>>

[pecwae]

32. Bush threatened the lives of his family?

[Danger Mouse]

58. Seek help.

[blm]

62. Your comfort with the Bush record of fascist strongarming is heartwarming.

But you are in serious denial if you think it is magically erased by a Dem administration. How did BushInc's fascist agenda get erased in the 90s after Bill Clinton took office?

[Danger Mouse]

65. If you think that Bush threatened Obama's life during their meeting...

then seriously, you need help.
I think Bush has been a godawful president, but come on. You're giving him too much credit.

[blm]

71. Right...Bushes wouldn't do that....and Bush is as big a 'buffoon' as Quayle...right?

And the Bush boy would never do anything as serious behind closed doors....just like Quayle....right?

After all, GHWBush and his friends are the nicest, most civil and statesmanlike leaders the country has ever had. Even Bill Clinton follows him around like a puppy....because they're ...just...so....darned....nice.

>>>>>>
Former New Zealand chief claims Quayle threatened him

March 28, 2002 Posted: 1:18 PM EST (1818 GMT)
Lange says he faced massive pressure to drop the anti-nuclear policy

By Joe Havely
CNN Hong Kong

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (CNN) -- Former New Zealand Prime Minister David Lange has claimed that ex-U.S. Vice President Dan Quayle threatened to have him "liquidated" over his country's anti-nuclear policy in the 1980s.

The extraordinary allegation was first made in an interview with New Zealand's One News broadcast Tuesday night. Quayle rejected the claim. In an e-mail from Quayle's Phoenix, Arizona, office, Quayle said Lange's allegation was "complete and utter nonsense -- it's so ridiculous it deserves no further comment."

Lange's claim also was described as "preposterous" by the U.S. Embassy in Wellington.

"We would hate to challenge the memory of a former prime minister, but the suggestion that former vice president Quayle threatened to kill him is preposterous," a spokeswoman told CNN.

In the One News interview Lange said the apparent death threat was made by Quayle during a meeting with the Australian cabinet.
CNN.com Asia
More news from our
Asia edition


"There were veiled threats and there were specific threats," he said. "It was announced at one stage to the Australian cabinet that I would have to be liquidated."

After being informed of the alleged threat -- it is unclear by whom -- Lange said he then asked New Zealand's Security Intelligence Service to investigate.

"I enquired of our security sources and was told I shouldn't regard it as a credible threat because the vice president wasn't regarded as credible."
>>>>>>

Right.....Quayle was acting on his own and not sending messages for Poppy....Poppy just wouldn't do that.

[Danger Mouse]

73. When the hell did I say that Bush is a nice statesman?

You seem to think the options are either 'Bush threatened Obama' or 'Elrond thinks Bush is a nice guy.'
Quit the black and white thinking.

[blm]

75. You think a buffoon is incapable of sending an implied threat. I proved otherwise.

I was going to an extreme with the Bush is nice bit....just as you went to the extreme to claim that a threat would NOT happen.

Given the Bush record it is more LIKELY that I am right than you are.

[Danger Mouse]

77. Sigh. Okay, okay, whatever. Believe what you want.

Obama is shaking in his boots because the mean ole Bush monster threatened him.

[blm]

78. I didn't say that....but, why are you certain that Bushes wouldn't imply consequences

would be harsh for crossing them? can you explain the sudden downplaying and even the diappearance of all the crucial matters outstanding when Bill Clinton took office? BCCI never even rated a paragraph in Bill's book? CIA drugrunning revelations never happened in 1996?

[Danger Mouse]

81. Why? Because I honestly think Bush doesn't even give a shit anymore.

That's why.

[blm]

83. Poppy Bush and his friends still do. You think Clinton tapdances for Dubai and Saudi royals because

he just likes to tapdance or because Poppy nailed a pair of tapshoes to his feet long ago?

And let's not waste energy pretending that Clinton did anything on foreign policy in the 90s that didn't protect or benefit Poppy and his friends, OK?

[Danger Mouse]

84. Maybe Clinton did it because it's made him filthy rich.

[blm]

85. Yes, he is filthy rich now. For siding with the secrecy and privilege of Bushes, Dubai-Saudi royals

and all their cronies OVER your right to open government accountable to the people.

We have a chance to put an end to decades of BushInc's policies around the globe....but, not with another Clinton in such a crucial position. You think she's going to be behind closed doors pushing what's best for you or what Poppy and Bill need?

[dkf]

46. He only has control if he is willing to fire her.

Otherwise I really don't think she is the type of person to be controlled.

[Danger Mouse]

57. He's not the type of person to take any shit, either.

[anonymous171]

2. I guess you have never taken a Civics class.

[Lumpsum]

16. There's a reason why they don't teach Civics in public schools anymore.

And it shows..

[Junkdrawer]

28. I guess you think government works just like they say in Civics class.

Double Psych

[leftstreet]

3. ...

:evilgrin:

[rvablue]

4. Junkdrawer, coming from a Hillary primary voter, this is so not helpful...c'mon.....

There are enough folks on DU who continue to think that people like me are still sore about Hillary's loss, when frankly, I could care less at this point and I'm excited and optimistic about an Obama administration.

Please stop.

:boring: :banghead:

[MoonRiver]

7. but,on another level,

you must admit they're asking for it! :rofl:

[gcomeau]

5. Obama still controls foreign policy.

Sec State implements foreign policy, under the direction of the President.

There is a goddamn difference which I really wish people would wrap their head around when discussing all of these appointments and bitching about either Clinton, or people who worked for the Clintons, while making snide snarky comments asking where the change is.

[Tempest]

6. Cabinet members ADVISE the president

If he's not going to take their advice, what's the point of picking them?

[Tarheel_Dem]

10. Did you not believe the Pres. Elect when he said he said he didn't

want a bunch of "yes" men/women? What is it about varying viewpoints that you don't get?

[Tempest]

11. The part where the varying viewpoints are not going to be helpful

After enthusiastically supporting Bush's militarization of Africa, do you think Hillary will back down from it?


I just hope Obama has the good sense to fire those who give him poor advise on a regular basis.

[Zynx]

26. To have contrarian or opposite views around to point out faults in your own ideas.

[No Elephants]

51. Opposite views do not necessarily point out faults in the ideas of others.

[gcomeau]

90. While everyone areeing with you all the time...

...DEFINITELY does not point out faults. So what do you want? Some chance of a mistake being caught, or no chance? I can see pretty clearly which way Obama is leaning thank goodness.

[sufrommich]

33. He's not compelled by law to take anyone's advice.

He'll be surrounded with people with various opinions on what should be done. Some of the advice will be acceptable to him and some won't,that's what advisors do,they put their ideas out there to be accepted or rejected and the chips fall where they fall.To imagine that anybody will have complete control of any policy other than the president is naive.

[No Elephants]

49. He'll take it if he agrees with it.

[davidinalameda]

67. even the best can give bad advice

[Zhade]

89. Yep. She'll have to take his orders, not the other way around.

It's kind of awesome to realize she has to do what he says.

[Shakespeare]

13. I'd think you were an asshole if your post weren't so blatantly laughable.

I'm sorry, who's in charge again?

Oh, that's right.

[Junkdrawer]

15. I'd say the BIGGEST issue that separated Obama and Hillary on DU...

was Hillary's support of the IWR...

So who does Obama nominate for Secretary of State? :shrug:

[Shakespeare]

22. And if he chooses her, she'll carry out HIS agenda, not hers.

Do you honestly thing she'll run a rogue state department? Uh, no.

[Junkdrawer]

23. No, I think Obama will look to his advisers for Foreign Policy....

And Hillary, rightfully due to her appointment, will feel that her position should be given first consideration.

Now, maybe four or five years from now...

That's what I think.

[Shakespeare]

24. At state, Hillary will be ok; for military decisions, he'll go to defense & joint chiefs.

He's been pretty unwavering on his Iraq position; while he may seek the counsel of a range of advisers, I still say Hillary will be executing Obama's agenda, and not hers.

[sufrommich]

34. Nobody is that ignorant of the role of the Presidents

cabinet. Hillary "will feel that her position should be given first consideration"? Divisive post for the sake of divisiveness. Silly.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Oh. And which adviser should be given first consideration on Foreign Policy?

The Secretary of Interior? :shrug:

[sufrommich]

39. "given first consideration " is a ridiculously simple

concept.He's not passing out doggie treats. What will be given first consideration will be policy objectives and the means to obtain them.Obama will set the objective,Clinton will be responsible for carrying them out,her advice will be the best possible way to reach the administrations goals.To imagine that her word is law as a cabinet member is stupid.

[No Elephants]

52. He will consider all opinions, then make up his own mind.

[olegramps]

37. That doesn't fit with what I have read.

In her speech, she said that she didn't believe that the situation warranted an invasion. And that it should only be used as a last resort if Saddam didn't cooperate. She concluded, "So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option."

[scarletwoman]

14. Ouch.

:spank:

[tritsofme]

17. Cabinet members serve at the pleasure of the President.

Obama tells Clinton what he wants done, she implements it.

Get it?

[Junkdrawer]

18. Yeah, that's how it will work...sure...how silly of me....

:rofl:

[tritsofme]

21. It works out any way Obama wants it to work out.

Because he has the authority to dismiss her at any time.

[Orangepeel]

20. after the primary, there was lots of predictions that Hillary would fuck up Barack's campaign

It's all Chris Matthews could talk about, other talking heads said the same thing, and there were plenty of posts here at DU speculating about her motives and what she'd do to take him down.

It turned out that Clinton stayed on message, was a team player, and did what she could to support Obama's campaign.

Now that it looks like she'll be SOS, all Chris Matthews can talk about is how she won't take direction from Obama and will push her own agenda.

My bet is that she'll stay on message, be a team player, and do what she can to support Obama's vision for the country.

[Skwmom]

43. She became a team player b/c she got the deal she wanted.

The Clintons are the ultimate politicians. Just b/c team Clinton is trying to sell this as Obama needed and decided on Hillary b/c she is the best qualified to do the job and Richardson is an idiot, wanting a reward, etc. doesn't make it so. Bill saying we didn't expect anything was really rich.

This whole drama is just a way to mess with the Anti-Clinton folks and keep people from figuring out the obvious, that she got the SOS as part of a brokered deal to keep Bill in line during the primaries, etc. The NY Times reported that John Bolton said in JULY that she would get the state department. Do you really think it was a lucky guess?

I wouldn't be surprised if the lengthy vetting of Bill Clinton wasn't also part of the negotiated deal so the Obama team at the end can declare Bill is pure as the driven snow.

What a show. But it is just that, a show.

[Beacool]

63. And you think that Richardson betrayed a friendship and endorsed Obama

out of the sheer generosity of his heart??????? He wanted to be SOS and now will have to settle for Commerce, serves him right.

:7

[sufrommich]

47. There are always "predictions" that Hillary Clinton is evil,

they always fall flat.That doesn't seem to stop the most rabid haters here and elsewhere from believing that "this time,she'll show her evil side".Apparently,reality has nothing to do with the constant need to paint her as a witch.

[Beacool]

61. The first mistake is listening to anything that comes out of that jerk's mouth.

Matthews is a guy who has issues with women in general and Hillary in particular, the guy is a sexist creep. Who cares what he has to say about this issue? I haven't watched MSNBC for months and I doubt that I ever will again, it's a joke of a news network.

:eyes:

[AtomicKitten]

25. Oh, snap. She still doesn't.

[CTyankee]

27. I just think it is obvious that Obama thinks he's gonna get more than it will cost him to have HRC.

If he thinks this is an OK deal, then I think it's an OK deal. I voted for him based on my trust in his judgment and that's the way I feel now. If I didn't, then I had some problems with my own judgment, which I don't.

Let's cut the guy some slack. I think he's thought of all the reasons we have that he shouldn't choose her. Obviously, he's rejected those reasons based on his own judgment. We voted for him; let's give him the benefit ofthe doubt before we jump into condemnation.

[JI7]

29. Colin Powell really controlled things as Sec of State didn't he

[Junkdrawer]

31. Of course, the deeper truth is that neither Obama nor Clinton will control policy...

but it seems that's a little too advanced for this crowd.

[olegramps]

41. I can only suppose that you believe yourself to be superior of anyone on this forum.

Personally, I have never been impressed by those who think that they are superior. It has been my experience that their opinion was greatly exaggerated and those who did believe it to be sadly disappointed.

[GarbagemanLB]

54. Ah yes, tinfoil hat time! Can you give me one from your stash?

[Telly Savalas]

91. So you're admitting the premise of your original post is bullshit.

[zulchzulu]

36. Maybe you don't know that Hillary's boss would be Barack Obama

If Hillary Clinton is Secretary of State, she would get her marching orders from her boss, Barack Obama. If she doesn't follow orders, she gets canned.

[Junkdrawer]

38. Just strikes me as a tad strange that the candidate who ran strongly against....

Hillary's vision of foreign policy would then pick her as his Secretary of State.

But I guess that's just me.

[olegramps]

42. Perhaps you could expound on her "foreign policy"

[Junkdrawer]

44. "Obama beats Hillary over head with Iraq"

Hillary Clinton thought she had driven a stake through it, but it turns out to be the issue that will not die: She voted to authorize the Iraq war, she refuses to say it was a mistake, and she refuses to apologize for it.

And Barack Obama continues to whack her for it.

Obama opposed the war early and was lucky enough to not yet be a senator when it first came up for a vote.

Again and again, he pressed this advantage Thursday night at the Kodak Theatre in Los Angeles in the first one-on-one debate between Obama and Clinton.

Obama exploits the issue in two ways: First, he says Clinton’s vote in favor of the war shows bad judgment.

“I was opposed to Iraq from the start,” Obama said, “and I say that not just to look backwards, but also to look forwards, because I think what the next president has to show is the kind of judgment that will ensure that we are using our military power wisely.”

Second, Obama says that his opposition to the war is something he can use against the Republicans in the fall.

....

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0108/8248.html

Judgment so bad that he wants HER as Secretary of State.

[paulk]

76. there were a number of Obama supporters who bought this line

and convinced themselves that there were differences between Obama and Hillary when it came to foreign policy.

Now they are discovering it was all just campaign rhetoric.

Perhaps if they had paid more attention to the candidate's voting records they wouldn't be so disappointed now...

[blm]

80. Same as Bill's - protect GHWBush, Dubai and Saudi royals. Keep fascist agenda on track

behind closed doors even as you make pretty and populist noises in front of crowds.

[zulchzulu]

45. Check out an org chart sometime

A President is at the top. A Secretary position is usually at least two tiers below. They make org charts for a reason.

In terms of Hillary Clinton possibly being the SoS, for her to get a more senior Senatorial position would take a few years and she was treated rather negatively when she returned to the Senate after her badly run campaign.

Getting a position in the Obama administration might be better for her career. That said, I don't think she has the best grasp of foreign policy that others have who are actually more qualified for the position.

If she wants the gig, she knows she isn't the boss of foreign policy that you appear to suggest. She does what Obama (and perhaps Biden) want or she takes her marbles and goes home, whatever that state is.

[Beacool]

68. Hillary was not treated poorly after her return to the senate.

Quite the contrary, she was treated with new found deference. She is on friendly terms with most senators from either side of the aisle and is well liked. The senate, as someone once pointed out, is the oldest remaining plantation and it's imbued with a strict protocol. If she chose to remain in the senate, she would have to wait quite a few years to head any committee. On the other hand, she would be independent and retain her own power base.

As SOS she will serve at the pleasure of the president, but she won't be just any other cabinet member. She knows that and Obama knows that, to assume otherwise is naive. There are only three super stars in the party: Obama and the Clintons.

Obama and Hillary will have a partnership on foreign policy, along with Biden, their positions were not that dissimilar before, campaign rhetoric aside.

;-)

[zulchzulu]

86. The NYT would say otherwise...

I remember there was some friction when she returned to the Senate after the campaign ended and here's an article in the Times that somewhat verifies that:

Driving Mrs. Clinton’s deliberations in part, friends said, was a sense of disenchantment with the Senate, where despite her stature she remained low in the ranks of seniority that governs the body. She was particularly upset, they said, at the reception she felt she received when she returned from the campaign trail and sought a more significant leadership role in the expanding Democratic majority.

“Her experience in the Senate with some of her colleagues has not been the easiest time for her,” said one longtime friend. “She’s still a very junior senator. She doesn’t have a committee. And she’s had some disappointing times with her colleagues.”

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/clinton-to-accept-secretary-of-state-job/

Not saying it was good or bad... just that it was reported...

[No Elephants]

53. Nothing strange. It's his vision of foreign policy that will get implemented, not hers. If she

were President, it would be her vision getting implemented.

[bunnies]

40. This is why I love DU. Its the intelligent conversation.

:eyes:

[JerseygirlCT]

48. She's working for him

She won't be controlling foreign policy.

She's not in charge, he is. And I think anyone who has been watching him these past two years shouldn't have any doubts on that count.

[mmonk]

50. The State Department is one of our more corrupt departments in government.

It got that way more under the last two administrations. That is why some eye brows are raised.

[Mass]

55. The SoS does not control Foreign Policy. Ask Condie Rice and Powell what they control.

They implement the president policy.

This is why some of us are that surprised. With Biden and a strong NSA in the White House having the direct hear of President Obama, why the heck does she want that position.

[zulchzulu]

56. Thanks to Colin Powell being against going into Iraq, Bush listened to his Secretary of State...

...oh wait. Let's see.

Secretary of State Colin Powell was on record as saying he was against going into Iraq initially after 9/11.

According to your logic, Bush had to listen to Powell's foreign policy directions, right? Thanks to Powell's power, Bush listened...

:shrug:

[Danger Mouse]

59. Oh for fuck's sake. She'll be working for him.

She won't be the one in control. Are people this stupid on purpose?

[L0oniX]

64. In all fareness, Clinton is not another Kinda-Sleeza-Reich.

[OnionPatch]

69. These posts would seem to indicate

that most of us are OK with it as long as Obama is the one in charge....which he is. In fact, as long as Obama is in charge of the basic direction and tone of the policy, I think she'll do a good job. She's smart and diplomatic. She has a lot of friends around the world. Obama can harnessed her talents to work in a positive way, but prevent her from drifting toward her more hawkish tendencies. Anyway, I think her hawkish tendencies were directly related to her wanting to prove she was up to the commander-in-chief job. It was all about doing what she thought she needed to do to get elected. I don't think she'll feel quite as pressured politically in the Sec of State. position.

[elkston]

79. The truth is that no one really knows how this is going to work out.

But I take solace in Obama's judgment and leadership skills.

This is a fascinating coupling and I have high hopes they will succeed. Ever since the rally in Unity I felt that these two were meant to be together in some fashion. Has there ever been so much excitement about seeing our government work in days past? This is Hollywood material here.

[kevinds13]

82. Jokes on you...

Obama is still President, Commander in Chief, head of our foreign policy, the motherfucker in charge...

I don't know how else to put it.

[Junkdrawer]

87. Oh...

:rofl:

[TexasObserver]

88. Can someone get you some cheese to go with your whine?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Or perhaps we can show you something in a pacifer?