Black opposition to gay marriage remains strong (and to civil unions)

[IndianaGreen]

So far as the party of the socialist proletariat is concerned, religion is not a private affair. Our Party is an association of class-conscious, advanced fighters for the emancipation of the working class. Such an association cannot and must not be indifferent to lack of class-consciousness, ignorance or obscurantism in the shape of religious beliefs. We demand complete disestablishment of the Church so as to be able to combat the religious fog with purely ideological and solely ideological weapons, by means of our press and by word of mouth.

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V. I. Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

God admitted that Satan was right; he recognized that the devil did not deceive Adam and Eve in promising them knowledge and liberty as a reward for the act of disobedience which he bad induced them to commit; for, immediately they had eaten of the forbidden fruit, God himself said (see Bible): "Behold, man is become as of the Gods, knowing both good and evil; prevent him, therefore, from eating of the fruit of eternal life, lest he become immortal like Ourselves.

Let us disregard now the fabulous portion of this myth and consider its true meaning, which is very clear. Man has emancipated himself; he has separated himself from animality and constituted himself a man; he has begun his distinctively human history and development by an act of disobedience and science - that is, by rebellion and by thought.

God and the State (1871)
Mikhail Bakunin

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/godstate/ch01.htm

Black opposition to gay marriage remains strong

Research shows opinions stubbornly unchanged despite growing mainstream acceptance

JOSHUA LYNSEN
Friday, July 11, 2008

Despite growing support for same-sex marriage in the United States as measured by several recent polls, black Americans remain steadfastly opposed to gay unions.

According to research conducted by the National Black Justice Coalition and several other organizations, as many as two-thirds of black Americans are against gay marriage. Although the numbers vary by poll, research shows most blacks oppose both gay marriage and civil unions.

The findings come as some surveys show a majority of whites have dropped their objections to same-sex unions. A poll by Pew Research Center in May showed that fewer than 50 percent of whites object to gay marriage.

<snip>

In 2004, 36 percent of the HRC survey’s respondents said they strongly opposed civil unions, while another 11 percent were generally opposed. The total opposed jumped this year to 53 percent, according to the Pew Center’s survey in May.

Robinson said opposition to civil unions runs high in part because the purely legal institution is seen as too close to its religious counterpart.

“Civil unions are seen as marriage light,” he said. “It’s not seen as substantially different.”

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/7-11/news/national/12917.cfm?page=2

[IndianaJones]

1. all racial minorities should know better. nt.

[Lost-in-FL]

2. ...

[IndianaGreen]

3. Deal with it!

If heteros were subjected to the same shit gays and lesbians have had to endure, there would be an armed uprising!

[Maat]

4. No kidding!

And, I say that as a long-married, hetero female.

[Lost-in-FL]

5. I won't argue that...

but blaming blacks won't cut it.

[Ediacara]

14. I don't see this post as blaming any one particular group

But the hundreds of posts here decrying the exit polling methodology as "flawed" are bullshit. This post is pointing that out.

[beachmom]

9. Still, you are singling out the one group who was not responsible

for Prop 8 passing. They are a minority and their numbers were too small to affect the outcome. Instead of condemnation, perhaps dialogue should happen.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Read the article and then come back with your observation

It is the LGBT community that is being singled out!

[beachmom]

34. Actually, you chopped up the article and edited out the support that does exist

from the black community:

Rev. Larry Brumfield, a black pastor at Westminster Church of the Brethren in northern Maryland, said he was saddened by the findings.

“I wouldn’t say I’m surprised,” he said, “but I’m a little put off by it because I feel that we have, as a people, as a group, as a demographic unit, we have not educated ourselves and learned and grown.”
Brumfield, who is straight, said too few blacks accept sexual orientation as the immutable trait many scientists believe it to be.

“I think a lot of folk think it’s a conscious choice,” he said. “But like blue eyes or green eyes, it’s how God made us.”

Robinson said although he and other gay activists have progressed in their educational work among religious and secular black communities, support for same-sex marriage has been agonizingly slow to materialize.

“African Americans, in large part, have been very resistant to any notion of discrimination against anyone, even when it comes to same-sex couples,” he said. “But we have not made the case yet that excluding same-sex couples from marriage is discrimination.”

Several prominent, straight black leaders have tried to help drum up support for same-sex unions.

Among those who have announced support for gay marriage are Coretta Scott King, the wife of Martin Luther King, Jr. who died in 2006; activist and former Democratic presidential candidate Rev. Al Sharpton; and Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), a prominent civil rights leader.

Julian Bond, chair of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, also is an ardent supporter of equal rights for gays.

I think more work should go into finding out why the support isn't there, and perhaps a more exact study as to whether it is related to socioeconomic background. There are, of course, the churches, but that is an equally difficult barrier in white conservative churches as well (I bet you if you surveyed those white churches alone, you would see even a higher percentage of whites in that subgroup opposed to marriage equality -- it is only that more whites are secular or practice a more tolerant form of religion).

[Lost-in-FL]

13. Thank you. nt

[silverojo]

113. Hetero women have been subjected to an enormous amount of shit

Being a wife meant you were "owned" by a man...not being able to vote...to this day, if a woman is raped, the "blame the victim" game is played.

It's taken over 100 years for women to be (kind of) accepted as equals.

Keep fighting for gay marriage, but please stop expecting it to be done RIGHT-NOW-RIGHT-NOW-RIGHT-NOW.

Right will prevail. No doubt in my mind about that. But every revolution takes time, and time is on our side, considering that young people are increasingly tolerant of gay/lesbian relationships.

Until then, if you need to visit a lover in the hospital, just lie to the fucking doctors about who you are. You're a brother/sister instead of a lover. Don't let society keep you from doing what's right, and don't give up hope.

Don't give up...period.

[HughMoran]

6. Beat me to it

How many posts to repeat the same point?

[Ediacara]

7. We should get over it right?

[Lost-in-FL]

10. No...

but we need to stop blaming AA's for it and go to the root of the matter.

[IndianaGreen]

17. Religion is the root of the matter

and in Indiana it was many of the black churches that joined the white fundies in pushing for a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage. They were defeated by a coalition of progressives and moderates.

[Lost-in-FL]

20. But then say is religious zealotry and not a particular group.

Passing the torch of blame would not solve the problem.

[IndianaGreen]

27. The polls showed that more Blacks opposed rights to gays than whites did

That's empirical data!

[Lost-in-FL]

29. Do they mention if they were of certain religion? nt

[Cali_Democrat]

37. So why don't we as Dems lobby the Black and Hispanic communities then?

I don't think you're gonna get much opposition to gay marriage here on DU.

Prop 8 passed because the GLBT community didn't do a good enough job of reaching out to Hispanics and Blacks.

I live in California, I know. The "No on 8" organizers were woefully ineffective at reaching out to minorities and moderates.

The Pro-Prop 8 folks put out extremely effective ads and they went to minority communities and appealed to them. That's something the "No on 8" folks didn't do and that's what made the difference.

We need to go into these communities and explain of GLBT rights is a Civil Rights struggle similar to what blacks went through. Unfortunately that part was a miserable failure.

Pointing fingers in this accusatory kind of way AIN'T GONNA GET IT DONE.

Sorry. This does not help.

[Egnever]

116. nicely done

:loveya:

[blondeatlast]

23. Then use that as the bait in your subject line. Furthermore, what is "presidential"

about your post?

[Ediacara]

18. Who was blaming them?

Is pointing out that 70% of African Americans in California voted for hate blaming them for its passage? I can do the math, I know that they alone didn't put it over the top. I don't blame black voters in California.

But I can feel betrayed. I can feel angry. I can feel galled that any oppressed minority group would so quickly throw another oppressed minority group under the bus.

[Lost-in-FL]

26. They are influenced by their xtian beliefs...

it is not because they are black.

[mondo joe]

39. People are responsible for their own choices. Xtians deviate from their religion

when it suits them.

[Lost-in-FL]

41. You are right.

But it was not the AA community who started the bill. We have to fight bigotry of any kind but we cannot fight bigotry with more bigotry. There must be a dialogue.

[mondo joe]

44. Prop 8's passage is not the fault of the AA community. But the survey data is disturbing,

and it would be disturbing even if Prop 8 did not pass.

This topic touches on very sensitive areas for many people, which makes it hard to discuss here. But I don't think that's cause to ignore it.

[Lost-in-FL]

46. It should not be ignored.

Today is gays, tomorrow might be atheists/agnostics. A similar measure was passed here in Floriduh and I am not happy about it either.

Again, passing the torch of blame won't help your cause.

[mondo joe]

50. I didn't blame anyone. Did I?

In fact I explicitly said the AA community is not to blame.

Do you think it's feasible to discuss the disproportionate anti-gay sentiment in the AA community in a fair and reasonable way?

[Lost-in-FL]

53. Would that help in any way?

I do not think we are discussing this "disproportionate sentiment" to make a difference but to put blame. Maybe it is just me that is seeing it that way.

[mondo joe]

56. I don't know how to say this without sounding challenging, which is not what

I intend, but I'll try anyway:

I think if you took civil rights for gays seriously, this demographic anomaly would be worth talking about.

If 70% of gay people were against equal rights for African Americans, would most consider it worth discussing? I think so.

[Lost-in-FL]

63. ALL groups that oppose gay rights should be discussed...

not just one group. First, I would discuss the involvement of the church in politics and state policy.

[mondo joe]

64. So we should ignore the demographics of which groups are disproprtionately anti-gay?

That doesn't make sense to me.

[Lost-in-FL]

65. I said all.

Didn't that included that group?

[mondo joe]

67. And are we to ignore demographic anomalies and pretend they don't exist,

or don't matter?

[Lost-in-FL]

72. I don't remember saying that but...

let me re read my posts.

We cannot ignore that mormons started the proposition either. Or are we afraid of mormons now? Obviously they showed they have power over the electorate which is very unfortunate (and concerning).

[mondo joe]

79. There are numerous threads about Mormons, there are protests directed at

them and there are boycotts.

The high rate of anti-gay bigotry in the AA community is a disturbing matter, regardless of Prop 8.

Even if Prop 8 was successfully blocked this would be worth discussing.

[Lost-in-FL]

88. I haven't seen those here but mostly those angry...

at certain racial group to tell you the truth. Actually, the first one I read was yours in fact, this morning.

[mondo joe]

92. Then you're not looking.

I can refer you to quite a few.

And I don't believe I have made ANY posts in which I expressed anger with ANY racial group, because I'm not angry with any racial group.

Don't mistake recognition of a moral and strategic issue as anger.

[Lost-in-FL]

99. Here in Floridah...

Me (a latina) and my hubby (AA) voted against a definition of marriage. Not all minorities are bigoted against gay rights. I am a believer that bigotry is mostly rooted on religion and not on race. Some believe otherwise. I have yet to meet an homophobic atheist.

[mondo joe]

102. You seem to be confused.

"Not all minorities are bigoted against gay rights."

No one said all minorities are bigoted against gay rights. No one implied it. No one suggested it.

"I am a believer that bigotry is mostly rooted on religion and not on race."

Bigotry can't be "rooted in" race, and no one said it was.

That said, there are demographic differences by race. No one could reasonably think race is the CAUSE of the bigotry.

But, as in any political campaign, it is worth noting those demographic differences, because it should influence strategy.

[IsItJustMe]

8. LOL. I need to get that image.

[Max_powers94]

12. just stop it

[IndianaGreen]

19. The article refers to Pew Research and HRC polling data

I won't stop until this coalition of bigots are defeated.

[jonnyblitz]

32. I am with you. I can't believe these clowns think bigots should

get a pass unless they are white and THEN you can criticize them. FUCK THESE STUPID ASSHOLES. this is our rights they are playing with and they are more concerned about hurting some minority bigots' feelings. FUCK.THEM.TO.HELL.

[IsItJustMe]

15. As a white person, I think I will direct my anger and blame toward white fundies.

[IndianaGreen]

24. Homophobia is a fact among Blacks, Asians, Latinos, as it is among whites

The article also mentions Asian-American attitudes towards gays.

[AZBlue]

31. When you start posting as many threads about that, I won't think you're targeting AA's anymore.

Homophobia can not be ended by racism.

[IsItJustMe]

38. Amen!!!

[Lost-in-FL]

42. ...

:thumbsup:

[IndianaGreen]

43. I remember biracial couples coming to our modest gay show bar thirty years ago

It was the only place they felt safe dating someone outside their race.

I think a little reciprocity is due.

[Cali_Democrat]

45. Then if you wanna appear less inflammatory...

post an article discussing white homophobia, especially in the south.

Or what about Hispanic homophobia among catholic Hispanics?

I'm waiting......

So far most threads here the past few days only discuss black homophobia as if it's only in the black community.

[Cali_Democrat]

16. IT'S TEH BLACKS!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[TexasObserver]

21. flamebait

But that's all you post.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Deal with it. It is a bona fide article quoting Pew Research and HRC polls

Spare me you hetero faux outrage!

[TexasObserver]

30. I have.

[DontTreadOnMe]

35. paaaleeeze....

"Spare me you hetero faux outrage!"

Now that's a winning argument...

the gay community is losing their argument, even though they are right, because of the methods they are choosing to argue.

If you "blame" someone... you have already lost.

[Occam Bandage]

22. ...

[d_b]

28. who's that handsome black fella?

[blondeatlast]

33. Karl Rove is soothing his nerves reading GD/P this week...

:cry:

[elleng]

36. There's a REASON

for posting this here, Green?

[David Zephyr]

40. How curious and revealing that a simple posting of a news article and poll caused such a clamor.

IG posted an article with some poll results.

She made no comments of her own in the OP.

And she's attacked here.

I'm learning a lot lately.

And what I'm learning is how much some pseudo-liberals truly hate homosexuals.

[jonnyblitz]

47. they are claiming we are racist by pointing out bigotry in

minority communities. Only white bigots should be called out and blamed they say. THEY are INSANE.

[Lost-in-FL]

49. Why can't we blame who proposed the bill and not just attack minorities?

Would that help the cause?

[jonnyblitz]

52. who in hell is attacking JUST MINORITIES? haven't you

seen all the threads attacking the Mormon Church, mostly white? are you purposefully being obtuse so you can feign outrage over racism? People who think LIKE YOU are what hurt this cause.

[Lost-in-FL]

59. WWooo!!

Chill the fuck out.

Maybe I have missed the mormon threads because all I have seen so far are those blaming AA's.

[Cali_Democrat]

55. The "No on Prop 8" campaign did a TERRIBLE job of reaching out to minority communities

The Pro-Prop 8 folks left 'em in the dust when it came to that.

Their ads were much more effective and they did a good job of appealing to minorities.

I was reading an article about how Prop 8 people went into black churches and lobbied them effectively.

The blame for the passage of prop 8 lies mostly with the organizers of "No on Prop 8." They sucked and we will all pay the price.

PERIOD.

Maybe next time we'll realize that minority communities are important when it comes to GLBT rights.

[mondo joe]

66. Don't blame the people fighting for equality for the bigotry of those who passed it.

The blame is not on the victims.

The blame lies in those who denied others their civil rights.

[Cali_Democrat]

70. I do blame the "No on Prop 8" campaign for being woefully ineffective at reaching out to minorities

I'm sorry, but this is the truth.

People here mostly saw Pro-Prop 8 ads and they were effective at scaring people into thinking they were gonna turn their children gay.

There was no real effective counter to this.

[mondo joe]

74. You're still blaming the victims for the bigotry of others.

It's reasonable to discuss the campaign and it's reasonable to critique the strategies and implementation.

It's not reasonable to say the blame for Prop8 lies with those who fought it rather than those who voted for it.

[Cali_Democrat]

78. I'm making a distinction between the voters and the orgaizers of the two campaigns

There's no doubt that the GLBT community is the victim here. But the "No on Prop 8" campaign didn't do enough.

We need to now work together find solutions.

[mondo joe]

83. You explicitly said the blame lies with the No on 8 Campaign. Your word, not mine.

That is blaming the victim, literally.

[jonnyblitz]

76. no you are blaming the victim. it seems like you are hell bent

on making the gay community the bad guy in this situation. we either aren't begging the bigots to like us enough or we are racist when we wonder why a sizable chunk of the minority community came out to vote for Barack Obama and Yes on 8.

[Cali_Democrat]

82. The GLBT community is NOT the bad guy

And neither is the Black, Hispanic, or White communities. The real bad guy is bigotry and we need to combat it.

[mondo joe]

85. "The blame for the passage of prop 8 lies mostly with the organizers of 'No on Prop 8.' "

You didn't blame the organizers of Prop 8, or those who voted for it.

You put the blame on those fighting it.

[Cali_Democrat]

86. You're entitled to your opinion

And I'm entitled to mine.

[mondo joe]

89. Where you put the blame is very revealing about you. Thank you. NT

[jonnyblitz]

90. opinions don't change the FACT that you are blaming the victim.

blaming the organizers is blaming the victim. do you blame the rape victim for getting raped because she didn't negotiate effectively enough with the rapist to talk him out of it?

[David Zephyr]

68. Blame the victim.

Wow. Now I've seen it all.

[mondo joe]

71. Can you imagine a thread in which a woman is blamed for being raped because she

couldn't beat up her attacker?

[Connie_Corleone]

77. That is not even the same thing. That's just a stupid analogy.

If you want people to vote NO on 8, you have to reach beyond your core audience. You have to put up ads to counter the lies and misconceptions about gay marriage. You have to go into the churches, go into the black community and correct the lies. It's called common sense, not "blame the victim".

That's what you do when you're trying to get people to vote against an issue during an election year.

[mondo joe]

81. Rationalize it as you like. NT

[Connie_Corleone]

91. Fine. Believe what you want.

But, if there is no outreach done, don't expect anything to change.

I support gay marriage and I'm trying to tell you that there were some mistakes made in trying to defeat Prop 8.

But if you want to go around acting like there were no mistakes, so be it.

Pointing out some mistakes is not blaming the victim.

[mondo joe]

94. The other poster explictly blamed the No campaign - not those who voted for it,

not those who organized it, not those who funded it. S/he explicitly said most of the blame lies with those who opposed Prop 8.

If you want to rationalize that, it's to your own shame.

No one said the No campaign was perfect, but to blame them for the bigotry of the voters is pathetic.

[Cali_Democrat]

95. ummmmm....I voted No on Prop 8

I put the blame on the organizers and not those who voted no like myself.

You misunderstood.

The organizers of the No campaign didn't reach out effectively to minorities and it was costly.

[mondo joe]

96. No, I understood. You blamed the No campaign, rather than those who voted for it.

You blamed the No campaign rather than those who funded the proposition.

You blamed the people most victimized by the Proposition for its passage.

[Cali_Democrat]

98. I'm curious

What mistakes do you think were made by the "No on 8" campaign?

None?

If you believe that then I've got a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

I'm simply pointing out mistakes that need to be corrected in the future so this doesn't happen again.

[mondo joe]

100. You didn't point out mistakes. You assigned the blame for Prop 8 passing.

Your words, not mine: "The blame for the passage of prop 8 lies mostly with the organizers of 'No on Prop 8.' "

At the strategic level it's important to look at the campaign and see what could be improved in the future. I'm all for that.

It is not, however, useful or decent to put the BLAME for the proposition on those who fought it rather than those who supported it.

[Cali_Democrat]

103. Please read my post again...I did point out mistakes....

The main mistake was not reaching out effectively to minority communities.

And in the future this needs to be corrected.

"No on Prop 8" was also woefully underfunded. We needed big donors here to match the many millions of dollars the other side had from religious groups.

I'm sorry, but I think you're a little too hysterical right now and you need to calm down.

I fought against 8 and talked to as many people as I could. I did my part. I'm sorry you feel that I'm some kind of bigot. I'm not.

[mondo joe]

104. How many more times do I need to read "The blame for the passage of prop 8 lies mostly with the

organizers of 'No on Prop 8.' "?

Your accusations of hysteria are unfounded and a poor defense of your choice to blame the victims, rather than the perpetrators.

It seems you don't like to have your own words presented back to you, and so seek to defend yourself with ad hominems.

[Cali_Democrat]

107. The GLBT community needs African Americans and Hispanics

And for various reasons, they aren't getting the message of equal rights for all, it's sad.

Reaching out to them is what needs to be done in the future so something like prop 8 will never pass again.

Dems are on the same side here and we all need to work together.

Let's learn from this.

[mondo joe]

110. That's a much more decent statement. Thank you. NT

[IndianaGreen]

112. Can't reach out to people holding irrational belief systems

and as the article points out, religion plays a major role.

Homophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black church
ELIJAH G. WARD

Institute for Health Research and Policy, School of Public Health, University of Illinois at Chicago, USA

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia,_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf

[Cali_Democrat]

114. We can always reach out to more people

Educating people on GLBT issues is NOT impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

[CreekDog]

118. 100% wrong. i hold one of those irrational belief systems

and i voted against 8. i know numerous people of similar faith that did the same.

i don't even belong to a liberal denomination but a fairly conservative one.

Steve Young's (former 49er) family came out against Prop. 8 and were big donors against it.

clearly you don't know what you are talking about.

[CreekDog]

117. why do you keep misrepresenting the other poster?

are you just trying to embarass them or actually have a discussion?

you are trying to put words in that poster's mouth.

STOP IT. they keep trying to explain their point to you. how about you, for once, try to understand what that poster is saying, otherwise you are wasting our time.

the cause of No on 8 was perfectly worthy and without flaw. the campaign to communicate that message was not without flaw.

at this point you have two choices: 1) argue about that 2) learn from it to figure out how to win the vote next time (we're really close, in case you didn't notice).

you know, it's not enough to be right. you also have to win. the civil rights movement is filled with steps backward amidst steps forward. i don't recall any steps forward that were the result of one group of victims blaming another.

[mondo joe]

121. I quoted the other poster. That's what the quotation marks denote.

Learn to live with it.

[CreekDog]

122. you're the only one that seems not to learn anything

good luck winning the next vote. how many minds have you changed or have you been wasting a lot of time excorating DUers who voted against 8 anyway?

[mondo joe]

123. When I care what you think I'll notify you by telegram. NT

[CreekDog]

124. that was obvious already

:hi:

[Cali_Democrat]

84. Thank you. nt

[jonnyblitz]

97. yeah, you want us to beg the bigots to not hate us and if we can't

it is our fault, that is basically what you are telling me in so many words. if they believe the lies that you say we have to counter, they are bigots. you think this is our fault if we can't convince them? this is NUTS!! and OF COURSE you are going to say my analagy is insane based on the screwed up way you think.

[Connie_Corleone]

105. I didn't mention anything about it being your fucking fault.

Outreach and putting up counter ads are done all the time in a campaign. Of course there will be a lot of people who will still be bigots (in ALL races and ethnicities). But, some people can have their minds changed if they are educated regarding the truth of gay marriage.

The analogy was still stupid.

[Cali_Democrat]

73. I'm sorry but the truth is the truth.

There was not enough appeal to the minority communities.

[mondo joe]

75. Don't confuse your blaming the victims with "truth". NT

[IndianaJones]

51. I've known that for quite a while. nt.

[mondo joe]

54. I don't know why the disproprtionately high anti-gay sentiment in this data isn't more

troubling to more people.

I think in some cases, it's because posters really agree - a gay Bradley effect.

In others it's because people are more sensitized to racism than homophobia, making homophobia the easier bigotry to accept than to risk even addressing it as a cultural issue.

[IndianaGreen]

60. Bayard Rustin was a victim of homophobia in his own community

as was James Baldwin. My own Latino community has strong homophobia, and it is all connected to the religion they cling to.

[mondo joe]

62. I think blaming religion is a cop out. Christians deviate from their religion with

great frequency when it suits them. They have sex outside marriage, divorce, have abortions.

No person's religion makes them a bigot. It's just an excuse for their bigotry.

[Withywindle]

120. I think blaming religion is a cop out too.

I think lots of people (of ALL ethnicities) have some fucked-up primal sense that homosexuality is "icky." A lot of these people are straight male bigots who swear they'd "kill" any "faggot" who hit on them while getting off on "lesbian" porn. To those men so insistant that being hit on by someone you're not interested in is the worst thing that could happen to you, GODS I wish some version of the "homosexual panic" defense could be applied to women. The first time a bunch of straight women in a bar decided to lynch a man who came on to them whom they decided was beneath them, a la Matthew Shepard, maybe a few more straight guys would get why their heebie-jeebies deserve NO protected status.

Jesus, allegedly, the basis of "Christianity," right - said NOT WORD ONE about homosexuality as recorded by the gospels. He had a lot of things to say about ignoring the poor, none of them complimentary, and he wasn't real big on divorce either.

You don't get divorcee-bashing, do you? YOu don't get people organizing measures in state elections to strip remarriage rights away from divorcees and adulterers, do you? No.

The reason for that is, divorce and adultery (as long as it's straight) doesn't elicit the same superstitious, irrational, emotional, kneejerk ICK factor in some straights that homosexuality does. The "Biblical" crap is just a thin gloss over a superstition that's no more religiously-based than the bizarre medieval European idea that black cats are evil. Which also still holds a toxic hold over our population - most animal shelters won't adopt black cats out for a month before and after Halloween, because they know from sad experience that SUPERSTITIOUS PEOPLE WILL KILL THEM.

The idea that there's anything wrong with LGBT people has about the same amount of Biblical clout as stereotypes about black cats and left-handed people.

[Lord Helmet]

48. they need some education about gay issues

[TheDonkey]

57. There is just very little outreach of exposure of gays in the black community

it is very unfortunate but few "black" shows have positive portrayals of gays and there is just little outreach from PFLAG, HRC, etc inside the black community whether it be from increased hostility or whatever but it is a problem for everyone.

[Lord Helmet]

61. I think that bridge can be crossed with some elbow grease.

[and-justice-for-all]

58. I do not give a fuck who is opposed to it....

Their religion is not the law of the land and there is NOTHING in the Constitution that would disallow same sex couples from getting married! PERIOD.

No matter how much of a fit religious zealots throw, the courts have no right to not allow same sex couples from getting married simply because the zealots don't like it.

People opposed to same-sex marriage are fucking bigots and they can all kiss my ass! FUCKERS!

[Tatiana]

69. Well, the main place to start re-conditioning these folks is in their churches.

And you saw what happened to a preacher that actually preached tolerance and acceptance of gays (Rev. Wright).

Under the bus they go... And therefore this sentiment is allowed to be reinforced throughout the religious community, of which most African-Americans are at least a casual participant.

[krawhitham]

80. why is this in General Discussion: Presidential

[IndianaGreen]

87. Do you want us in the Back of the Bus Forum?

Marriage rights is a fundamental right.

[blondeatlast]

106. Agreed, but I don't get the connection to "presidential." nt

[NYC_SKP]

93. Sorry, I'm calling bullshit on this sort of blame-shifting.

I can't speak to efforts in other states, but in California there just wasn't enough action and funding to fight Proposition 8.

Pro-8 groups were very well funded and launched a very effective campaign of fear, and we were complacent and never thought it would pass.

It serves absolutely no purpose to identify groups who support gay marriage less than other groups, and then to hint that it's their fault.

If a group that's been treated unfairly, then that group historically has to work very hard and part of that work is to work with other groups, not to place blame on them.

Enlightening other groups, not blaming them, is what's called for here.

I'm disappointed that a fellow DU member even thought to post this article here, and to do so without commentary as to how to build a broader base of support across demographics.

[IndianaJones]

101. i'm disappointed with the rampant homophobia here and among racial minorities. nt.

[IndianaGreen]

108. "the complex background influence of racism in the genesis of homophobia"

There is an excellent article pointed out by a fellow DUer in another forum. Here is an excerpt:

Sources of the homophobia in black communities and churches

Within many black communities the church plays a significant role in the production of homophobia, although it is important to recognize that black churches are not the only source of the homophobia in black communities. Homophobia exists within many cultures, subcultures and religious groups. But what are the roots and character of homophobia in black churches within the USA? Three different types of explanation have been put forward, which privilege respectively (i) religious beliefs, (ii) historical sexual exploitation, and (iii) race survival consciousness. All are intimately related to the history of black slavery, underscoring the complex background influence of racism in the genesis of homophobia. According to the first of these perspectives, homophobia is related to literalist theologicalviews.

Recent work by theologians and biblical scholars has done much to move Christian groups toward greater biblical integrity on homophobia as well as other issues (e.g. Spong 1992, Nelson 1993, Helminiak 1994, Douglas 1999 ). Work of this kind has given contextual clarity to passages long-adhered to as justifications for homophobia. Yet, black ministers and congregations have been relatively immune to, or distrustful of, such generally white-dominated approaches to biblical scholarship and revisionism. Homophobia in black churches is therefore directly related to the authority given to a perceived literal interpretation of scripture in these churches (Brown 2002, Fowlkes 2003, Reed 2003). Douglas (1999 90) argues that ‘(S)cripture is often the cornerstone of homophobia in the black community’. She explains why black people’s use of the Bible to condemn homosexuality is understandable in the context of their historical experience, as enslaved blacks sought refuge and found freedom in the literalness of Scripture.

A second line of thought holds that, among blacks, homophobia may well be at least inpart the expression of a more general fear of sexuality. Some black thinkers and scholars locate this wider fear of sexuality, and of homosexuality in particular, in a psycho-cultural response to the history of white exploitation of black sexuality during slavery and afterwards. Douglas (1999) has offered the most complete explanation of this thesis.

Beyond their adaptive sense of humour in response to debilitating stereotypes, black people in the USA have been profoundly affected by the persistent efforts of whites to demonise them and their sexuality. In the social construction of standards of beauty, measures of intelligence and assessments of moral character, elements of racism have been used to effectively privilege whiteness and denigrate blackness. Much of this has been accomplished through the institution of slavery and its aftermath.

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Blacks+%2B+homophobia&fr=slv8-tyc7&u=www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia%2C_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf&w=blacks+black+black%27s+homophobia&d=Y-If1kLURufi&icp=1&.intl=us

Homophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black church
ELIJAH G. WARD

Institute for Health Research and Policy, School of Public Health, University of Illinois at Chicago, USA

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia,_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf

[IndianaJones]

109. I've seen alarming homophobia up close in the Asian community. nt

[IndianaGreen]

111. The OP article mentions that

Can't talk to people holding irrational beliefs, no matter their religion or ethnicity.

[piesRsquare]

115. And I'm calling bullshit on *yours*.

"...but in California there just wasn't enough action and funding to fight Proposition 8."

There was *plenty* of money. WE spent more than the Mormons did.


"It serves absolutely no purpose to identify groups who support gay marriage less than other groups..."

It most definitely DOES serve a purpose. If I learned that 70% of Jewish voters voted in favor of revoking marriage rights from same-sex couples, you bet your butt that I, as a Jew (especially as a bisexual Jew), would focus the majority of my activism efforts on the Jewish community, stepping them up to the point of it being a second job.

If you don't know who to reach out to, you won't reach *anybody*. Canned, generic messages don't get anywhere; effective messages are ones that are tailored to their target audience.


"Enlightening other groups, not blaming them, is what's called for here."

Wow--are YOU suggesting that African-Americans are "unenlightened"?

No, you're not (I would wager). Guess what? The OP isn't blaming Blacks for the passage of Prop 8 any more than you're claiming Blacks are unenlightened.


And to everyone blaming "Religion":

My best friend who's a devout Catholic (and her brother)? No on 8.

A colleague who immigrated from Mexico, devout Catholic? No on 8.

Good friend who's a devout Presbyterian (and likely his mother, brother, aunt, uncle, and cousins)? No on 8.

Myself, and at least four friends who are observant, Conservative Jews? No on 8.

People who say they are against marriage rights for same-sex couples because of their religion or the bible are using religion as an excuse for bigotry. Because there are plenty, PLENTY of religious people who believe it was our civic AND RELIGIOUS duty to vote No on 8. The "root" of the problem is NOT religion.

Check THIS out:

"The Rev. Rick Mixon, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Palo Alto, told the Mercury News that he is baffled that his fellow evangelicals have “come down on the wrong side of this issue.” He argues for a clean line of distinction between church actions and state marriage laws.

“I do not understand how we have come to the unholy union of church and state that we call marriage today,” he said. “Clergy, especially Baptist clergy, have no business acting as agents of the state, whether in making wedding proclamations on the state’s behalf or in signing wedding licenses.”

Other evangelicals are reaching the same conclusion.

The Rev. Alger Keough, executive pastor of Azure Hills Seventh-day Adventist Church in Grand Terrace, told the Riverside Press-Enterprise that he would never marry a same-sex couple because he believes the Bible permits marriage only between a man and woman.

But the newspaper said Keough is one of dozens of Adventists in the Inland area who have signed a petition opposing Proposition 8. (The petition drive began after an Adventist church-state council endorsed the initiative.)

Keough told the newspaper that the ballot measure violates the separation of church and state, which Adventists — who have sometimes faced discrimination because their Sabbath is on Saturday — have long promoted. He said even though he believes same-sex marriage is wrong, he shouldn’t be able to impose his beliefs on others.

What a concept! Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and many of America’s other founders would give Pastor Keough a rousing amen."

From: http://blog.au.org/2008/10/27/church-state-and-marriage-california-debate-on-proposition-8-goes-constitutional/

[Independent_Voice]

119. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

I understand -- although disagree with -- people's position in regard to keeping the status quo for the definition of "marriage" (obviously, I personally want to see the definition of marriage made inclusive, but that's my view).

But anyone who would work ACTIVELY to prevent LGBT people from having the basic rights encompassed by a civil union, in my opinion, does not deserve to be a part of this world.

[usregimechange]

125. They'll come around