Are the vicious attacks on the LDS organization appropriate?

[BuyingThyme]

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. It's God's work

YMMV.

[Occam Bandage]

2. They have nothing on the vicious attacks by the LDS organization.

[AlCzervik]

3. Are the vicious attacks on gays appropriate for the LDS organization?

[BuyingThyme]

13. I think it paints an appropriate picture.

[TankLV]

121. Now THAT'S the more appropriate question for this crap...

[Overseas]

4. IF they're the primary funding source promoting Prop 8, sure.

I haven't seen any attacks that vicious.

[BuyingThyme]

6. Well, step it up.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

5. so are there any good alternatives to ancestry.com for genealogical work?

[BuyingThyme]

9. I had to do some work in that area a few years back.

I had no idea.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

31. They do the genealogy

work so they can baptize the dead. It is YOUR job, as a Mormon to save the souls of your ancestors. :eyes:


A proxy stands in for the dead person and then a baptism occurs. I've been at Temples and seen it done. I never was a proxy but had friends who seemed to like being a dead persons stand in.

They believe that the souls needs to be baptized as a Mormon to enter into the upper realms of Heaven. http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/baptism-for-the-dead.html

[BuyingThyme]

36. Yes, I had no idea.

I was pretty deep into something and a librarian suggested the LDS.

[LiberalAndProud]

7. Yes x2

I want the LDS churh to lose tax exempt status. I want them humbled. I want them shamed. They are vile vile vile vile VILE VILE VILE VILE



VILE

[SalviaBlue]

43. I agree.

[Pale Blue Dot]

8. Since they are using imaginary sky gods, psuedoscience and psuedohistory to oppress people,

I say yes.

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. Nobody's trying to take away the Mormons' civil rights, are they?

Hey, I say when you become God of your own planet, you can make the laws how ever you want. But this is Earth, not Kolob and we got something called the Constitution here.

[BuyingThyme]

11. Only the gay ones.

[Sebastian Doyle]

17. Do gay Mormon dudes

....have multiple husbands? :shrug:

[BuyingThyme]

20. No, but I suspect some have multiple wives.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. A gay mormon guy with multiple wives?

The closet must be the biggest room in the house! :rofl:

[tandot]

12. How about a "they are not vicious enough" option?

Considering how vicious the attacks BY the LDS were.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. It's not vicious when it's the truth. -nt

[BuyingThyme]

16. In this case, I would argue that if it's not vicious, it's not the truth.

[JuniperLea]

32. God I love that cartoon!

Here's the singer... I took this picture of Lemmy back in the mid-90's...

[mitchum]

15. Always

[liberalmuse]

18. They are heinous.

I lived in Utah for many years. The Mormon church persuades their wealthier members to 'donate' their lands and then they build developments on it and rake in the dough, yet they don't pay a dime of taxes. Then they use that money to push their agenda in other states. What they did with Prop 8 is unforgivable. They need to be taxed.

[scorpiogirl]

19. Yes. If the Mormon church can't take the heat

They should keep their bigoted religion out of state legislation!

Reap what you sow. What were seeing is a by-product of their discrimination. That's the one part they cannot control. They are being persecuted just as they've done to others.

[Oak2004]

21. I voted yes, but my answer is actually more complicated

The church authorities, and structure, deserve a great deal of criticism.

Individual Mormons need to be evaluated on the basis of their acts. Many are quite sincere (even if, as I believe, deluded) , and do not participate in, or even agree with, the church's more loathsome activity.

[BuyingThyme]

23. I don't share that view.

I think anybody who chooses to participate in organized religion should answer for all of the atrocities committed by that organization...or get out.

[Ozma]

27. How do you answer for the Crusades? Slavery? The Inquisition?

All "Christian" inspired moments.

[BuyingThyme]

29. I think you just provided the answer.

[yardwork]

40. The Mormons weren't the only ones funding the hatefest.

I read that money from the Catholic Church, Orthodox Jews, and various fundamentalist Christian denominations went into pushing bigotry and hatred - which passed on four states.

I see a lot of people who now deserve some scrutiny.

[BuyingThyme]

45. It was largely the LDS and the Knights of Columbus.

[yardwork]

49. Good to know. The Knights of Columbus are a Catholic group, right?

[BuyingThyme]

51. Yes, that's my understanding.

[Bassic]

117. Yes they are. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

63. "How do you answer for the Crusades? Slavery? The Inquisition?"

by being an atheist

[BuyingThyme]

65. Bless you.

[awoke_in_2003]

70. my pleasure. nt

[Ozma]

67. A great response to the mythology of religions that have slauthered

so many human souls in the name of "G O D"

[awoke_in_2003]

71. If you can, go see Religulous. nt

[Ozma]

79. I will see it, when I can see it at home. Yes, it's on my list! nt

[roody]

104. I left the damned church.

[Oak2004]

109. There are people who believe they can best influence their church from the inside

I don't agree with them -- I think they're deluded about this -- but I'll at least give them the benefit of not counting them among those at fault.

When I lived in Colorado I knew a number of gay and gay-friendly Mormons. They're the kind of people I'm thinking of here.

[LanternWaste]

118. Why limit our revenge to only religion...?

Why limit our revenge to only religion...? Let's also, and just as validly place adherents of *all* philosophies.

Unless of course it's all just academic and quite silly.

[Oak2004]

22. I voted yes, but my answer is actually more complicated

The church authorities, and structure, deserve a great deal of criticism.

Individual Mormons need to be evaluated on the basis of their acts. Many are quite sincere (even if, as I believe, deluded) , and do not participate in, or even agree with, the church's more loathsome activity.

[bluedawg12]

92. Wrong! According a regular member gays will destroy USA

the night before the vote for P8 a member of that "group" spouted dangerous inflamatory rhetoric about voting for P8 to save our nation from DESTRUCTION from gay marriage.

How long do we have to hear that before some wacko-wing-nut blows up another gay bar again or goes on a rampage.

[Oak2004]

108. That's why I said you need to evaluate each individual

Someone spouting hate = guilty

[Marrah_G]

115. Those individuals are funding it with their donations.

They can choose to not donate to hatred and bigotry.

[TexasObserver]

24. When a church enters the political arena and targets civil rights, it is our enemy.

LDS has made itself an actor in this fight.

[BuyingThyme]

25. Thank gawd people are having a change to see that.

[grantcart]

28. i voted yes but i wanted to vote no it should be much worse

they continue to cover up meadow mountain massacre

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. What is vicious about wanting the IRS to investigate them?

[BuyingThyme]

34. The IRS part.

[GreenPartyVoter]

54. So you disagree with the whole separation of church and state thing, or are you being sarcastic?

[BuyingThyme]

60. No. I think the IRS is vicious.

So are tigers. But they have to eat.

[GreenPartyVoter]

62. So is honey... oh, no.. wait. That's viscous. Sorry. Carry on.

[Ozma]

69. The IRS is just another group of regulators on how some people..

deny others justice.

[indie_voter]

89. I hope this gets enough attention that the IRS is forced to investigate

I'm sure LDS was clever enough to funnel most of the money through individuals. But they violated the spirit of the tax exempt status, I hope there is evidence they stepped over the line (though not holding my breath).

[Freddie Stubbs]

111. Investige them for what, exactly?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. There's a fine line...

between attacking some bureaucratic political organization, and attacking the religion itself.

A number of bigots today have erred on the side of the latter.

[BuyingThyme]

41. I viciously disagree.

I think that attitude allows people to convince themselves that supporting evil is okay if you do it at arm's length.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. I think the alternative is what gassed the Jews.

Not to mention homosexuals.

[BuyingThyme]

50. Yes, we either stop the gays or gas the Jews.

Choose up sides.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. I've already chosen a side.

I've chosen the side that doesn't make blanket assumptions or accusations against a large group of people based on what a few, some, or many of that group choose to do.

You?

[BuyingThyme]

53. If they choose to be a part of a group which does evil things, I hold them responsible.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. That's why I hate Jews.

First they killed Jesus, and now they don't even eat BLTs. Can't trust them.

:sarcasm:

[awoke_in_2003]

66. "and now they don't even eat BLTs"

that is why I love them- leaves more BLTs for me :)

[Ozma]

75. Strange sense of sarcastic humor. We have to remember

Yes, we have to remember, we are NOT responsible for our parents, grandparents, etc etc

We are responsible for ourselves, our own actions, our own belief systems. The Sarah Palin suppporters of the world, and the Atheists are responsible only for themselves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. This is the same sort of logic, btw...

that McCain used to call Obama a terrorist.

Guilt by association.

[yardwork]

82. I still haven't seen any vicious attacks on Mormons. Are there referenda outlawing Mormonism?

That would be a vicious attack. Are there four states asking voters if Mormons should be allowed to get married? Are those referenda funded by outside groups? Are there massive public relations campaigns telling lies about Mormons and exhorting voters to be good Christians by outlawing Mormon rights?

That would be vicious. Please point them out to me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. There's a thread in GD, yardwork...

Calling for a mormon temple to be burned down.

There's several threads here calling them terrorists. That being for the Mountain Meadows massacre.

It reminds me very much of the guy with the "Barack is a terrist muslin" sign.

That, yardwork, is vicious.

And very, very stupid.

[yardwork]

98. I doubt that the mods would allow a thread calling for something to be burned down.

I've seen the thread on the Mountain Meadows massacre and nothing in it sounded vicious to me last time I read it.

The fact is that the Mormons organized and funded a very vicious attack against me and millions of others like me and succeeded in taking away a civil right that had only recently been gained. That's what I call vicious.

[yardwork]

35. I haven't seen any. Can you point me to one? I want to bump it.

[Dems to Win]

87. Here's one!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7801184

Just happens to be one that I started, imagine that.

[Teaser]

37. They made their bed. They can sleep in it.

sorry, they can wear their magickal underwear all they want, I don't care.

But they fucked with the private lives of people I care about.

Gotta arrange some payback for that.

[rucky]

38. Pretty much. n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

39. Yes...

and there have been nothing as mean as what the LDS Church did to CA -

And like I said yesterday...

Shame on any Democrat who drank the H8 koolaid.

[bullwinkle428]

42. Are "vicious attacks" on George W. Bush appropriate? *(WWHA)

* = What Would Hannity Ask

[Kitty Herder]

46. On the organization, yes. Just don't attack the people.

The LDS members are usually kind, polite people who have been brainwashed from childhood to believe without question whatever their leaders tell them. Don't hold it against them.

However, the LDS church as an institution deserves to be called out on its bigotry. Pressuring them to change has worked in the past. They stopped discriminating against blacks in 1978, once enough pressure was applied.

[blondeatlast]

47. Even with heavy funding from single sources, referenda gets defeated.

There's plenty of blame to go around for H8 and I was just as sickened and saddened when it was the African Americans' fault yesterday.

So I voted NO--and I bet I'll lose some friends on DU over it, but there it is.

[BuyingThyme]

56. I don't think you'll be losing any friends.

But the African American analogy doesn't work for me. Not until they all form a cult or something.

[blondeatlast]

61. Well, I saw a lot of it here yesterday and one of those threads is still going strong.

It's way, way to complicated to pin the blame on one organization. I have a problem with referenda in general; it's a cowardly, cowardly way of making law.

Here in AZ we get all too much of it but we also get the legislature we deserve since we always reject their pay raises. Gtting enormously pissed off here, so I'll bow out for now...

[BuyingThyme]

64. It's hard to blame an organization for the outcome,

but easy to blame an organization for their positions and actions.

[yardwork]

72. I've been posting to that thread but not because I blame any one group.

I want to understand what we can do to change people's minds. I want to know what kinds of outreach will help.

Meanwhile, I am definitely interested in going after organizations that created this hateful legislation and funded lies and bigotry. That doesn't mean that I'm mad at individuals, but I sure am going after the organizations.

I feel the same way about the KKK for the same reasons.

[yardwork]

57. It wasn't the fault of African Americans or any one group.

The fault lies with the individuals who chose to vote for a hateful amendment to their own state's constitution. The fault also lies with the groups that funded a campaign that spread lies and encouraged bigotry. The fault lies with preachers who told their congregants to go out and vote other people's rights away.

It's very sad to me that apparently (according to exit polls), 70% of African Americans voted for the Proposition, but based on the responses to a thread asking why, it looks like the reason for this goes back to the influence of religious groups. Meanwhile, half the white and Latina/o voters chose bigotry, too.

It's a sad day when peoples' rights are voted away but we'll continue the struggle.

[blondeatlast]

73. that's just the problem--the reasons are SO complicated. For instance, I HATE referenda.

On the other hand, we get the legislatures we deserve and my own state deserves a crappy one.

If anything good can come of Props H8 and AZ's 102, it's that we perhaps we can start a serious conversation about the uses of referenda to restrict others--all in the name of getting more low-info voters voters to the polls (which was the sneaky behind H8 and 102 that at least H8 failed to accomplish).

I actively campaigned against 102 here and am sorry to see it pass, but sorrier still to see where the shock has taken a board like DU. I'd love to see the conversation about it pick up again in a month when we're a bit more detached.

I will admit that I had the advantage of expecting 102 to pass in our heavily Mormon state so I don't think I'm in a state of shock as CA's (understandably--so am I) are.

[yardwork]

78. As a lesbian, I am not sorry to see this issue out in the open.

I would prefer to see the issue discussed here on DU than have everyone politely ignore it. I'm sorry that some people's tempers have gotten the better of them. Obviously I don't agree with many of the posts here attacking people personally, but when do I ever agree with a lot of posts here?

It's ridiculous that civil rights are ever open to a popular vote. The U.S. Constitution is designed to protect minorities for this very reason.

I'm well aware that gay rights have been a very convenient tool used by the rightwing to scare up voters and get them to the polls. I'm ready for that conversation to start anytime but in the meantime I'm angry, I'm hurt, I'm disappointed, and I'm not going to shut up about it.

[blondeatlast]

85. I'd say I understand but I can't--I'm straight and white. I'll never pretend to understand the hurt

you must feel. All I can do is offer my sympathy and promise to forward human/civil rights at every opportunity. It's just sometimes, when we react (not you, specifically, I hope I make that clear) and look for some reason for our loss we can be quick to judge another group and the deeper issues fall to the side.

Hamlette's thread was started thoughtfully but I saw some reactions in other threads that alarmed me. I'm married to a brown man (Asian Indian) and that group has been singled out quite a bit for hatred for peceivedjob losses. Well, I can understand that-- plenty of jobs are lost to India, but those jobs were SENT there; Indians didn't come here looking for them, and my husband is an American citizen by choice. Yet we've been on the receiving end of plenty of hateful words and looks ourselves.

Until we ALL understand that your suffering is my suffering and vice-versa, we're doomed to this, I expect. My back just raises when I see any group singled out for hateful remarks (but then, I KNOW I've been guilty of it as well).

I'm beginning to understand the enormous letdown many DUers must feel after Prop H8 succeeded. I was too elated on tuesday and yesterday for it to sink in, but started to consider it in light of my husband's experience in the US and I began to see the hurt.

I wish I could make things better. I want everyone to see that your pain is everyone's pain--and yet I can't even feel your pain since I'm pretty privileged in that my marriage is perfectly legal and okay even if others disapprove of my choice of mate for as stupid a reason as the one keeping your marriage illegal. I wasn't faced with NOT being able to marry him, simple as that.

My life would be so much easier if I didn't have (sorry for the cliche, but it applies) AA friends, gay/lesbian friends, Indian friends, Mormon friends, athiest/agnostic friends, and so on. But it would certainly be shallower and less enjoyable.

I'm so dreadfully sorry about PropH8 and 102 passing but here in deep red AZ I can't say I was shocked by either one. I just sort of expect the hate to win and am used to it so the shick many feel about 8 registers differently to me.

I appreciate your very thoughtful responses; we've often disagreed on the boards but I've always found you as very intelligent and respectful of EVERYONE. I can't always say the same about myself. This is a strange time for me, both considering the political climate of this week and some personal issues (I found out on Monday that we will be expating to Germany next year; very bittersweet, especially in light of recent events).

Maybe I need a break from this but I can't stay away knowing I can have conversations like this with really smart, informed people. There isn't a lot of those in my neighborhood, I'm afraid.

I apologize for what happened in California--this IS everyone's struggle, IMHO. Let's hope the social/political climate continues to be favotrable to ALL of the oppressed. I sincerely believe it will under this administration.

[yardwork]

102. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. I'm sorry to hear that you have to move.

I hope that you will continue to post on DU.

[SweetieD]

48. no

[ronnykmarshall]

99. Explain why!

[Hippo_Tron]

58. I see no problem with attacking the LDS organization

But I wouldn't presume that all Mormons support their Church's activities. I do think that there's a bit of prejudice going on when people assume that Mormonism is a cult and mainline Christianity isn't because Mormons wear "magic underwear" and engage in other activities that we might find weird.

That said, the Church's political activities are despicable and I don't fault anybody for pointing that out.

[awoke_in_2003]

68. All religions

are a cult, some are just more annoying than others.

[Dr Fate]

94. I think we should totally make fun of and question their "magic underwear" and other cultish views.

I think a giant magnifying glass should be place over any and every activity that is even marginally outside of the mainstream.

Anything that could be used to discredit and make people question the validity of LDS is fine with me.

"Magic Underwear" and other outside-the-mainstream cultish behavior is a GREAT place to start.

As a matter of fact, gay folks & gay culture is more mainstream in today's culture than these bizzare LDS secret rituals- and I think more people should know about it.

[boppers]

110. "Magic Virgins"

"Magic Food that turns into the body of Jesus"
"Magic words that change the Universe"
"Magic recitation that fixes the Magic in a person"

Questioning weird "cult" beliefs starts to, well, mean questioning all beliefs.

Humans have quite a few odd beliefs, many of which they are blind to, because the species is not rational.

For example: Most humans believe that gravity exists. Even in a zero-G environment, they believe it exists.

The human mind isn't so good at figuring out all possible worlds, all possible laws of physics, and deducing that in some condition set, gravity might not exist.

So, we believe what makes sense to us, given our current experiences.

[southpaw]

59. Goddamn right!

Tax their asses! Motherfuckers getting all politically active!

Bunch of bat-shit crazy fuckers.

[awoke_in_2003]

74. As has been said...

any enemy of civil rights deserve WHATEVER they get.

[blondeatlast]

81. Yesterday African Americans were to blame on DU--does your

statement still apply?

[Jed Dilligan]

88. So there's this African-American organization with billions of dollars

that controls its members and seeks to influence the electoral process? Wow. I never knew.

[awoke_in_2003]

91. LDS poured tons of money into this...

they (and Catholic Church) were the driving forces behind this. How much NAACP money was in it? Zero.

On edit: and I stand by my statement- anyone who is against civil rights is an enemy to humanity. The difference between organizations like LDS and individuals is that individuals can be educated and can learn to be tolerant.

[Barack_America]

76. Define "vicious". As in, "taking away their rights"?

Oh...wait...

[BuyingThyme]

80. Yeah, like that.

[workinclasszero]

83. Just a few years ago the LDS taught that all black people were cursed

by God. They would not allow any blacks in the priesthood or temples I believe.

The LDS are one wing of the repig party, the other being the nutcase, know-nothing Palinites.

I say its total war against both wings if America is going to survive the massive destruction of the Bush years.

[Zombie2]

86. Yes, very much so.... n/t

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

90. Propagandists who enter the political arena to deny citizens

their equal rights should be savaged for exactly what they are.

[Dr Fate]

93. Yes. LDS wanted a fight, now they will get one.

I support any and all efforts to attack, marginalize, expose, discredit, tear down, legislate against and otherwise confuse LDS.

I would support a Prop. taking away a Mormon's right to marry or participate in govt. as well- b/c they can be demonized just as easily as any other minority.

Don't take this the wrong way- but it may be easier to get voters to attack LDS than to get them to defend the civil rights of minorities.

LDS should be fully DISCREDITED using the same methods that have been used against the Scientologists- namely facts.

[bluedawg12]

95. They had their hands in Prop 22 in 2000 anti- gay marriage

http://www.newsweek.com/id/83973

To Be Gay — And Mormon
As A Pious Churchgoer, Stuart Matis Prayed And Worked To Change His Sexual Orientation. He Died Trying
.......

They also worked adamently against the ERA ammendment in the 1970's.

........

Why are they going out of State and funding political causes, they are less than 5% of Calif. pop.?

........

http://www.connellodonovan.com/lgbtmormons.html

>>Below is a "10th anniversary" revised and greatly exanded version of what was published in 1994 by Signature Books. ]
"The Abominable and Detestable Crime Against Nature":
A Revised History of Homosexuality & Mormonism, 1840-1980
by Connell O'Donovan

I dedicate this labor of love in honor of Stuart Matis, Clay Whitmer, D.J. Thompson, Carlyle Marsden, Gordon Ray Church, and all the other bright souls who did not survive Mormonism's homophobia.
And to those of us who have survived, that we might bear witness....<<

[ibegurpard]

96. I object to the wording of the question

Kind of like "how often do you beat your wife?"

[BuyingThyme]

97. Overruled.

[rug]

100. No one is attacking Mormon marriage.

[BuyingThyme]

107. Maybe not the best example.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

113. Ha! SNAP!

[Marrah_G]

116. ~snicker~

Perfect response.

[KamaAina]

101. To paraphrase Malcolm X, "We are non-vicious with those who are non-vicious with us."

So there!

[Danger Mouse]

103. On their actions as an organization, yes.

But not on them as individuals.

[happychatter]

105. when these religions go political, they better be ready for a whuppin' NT

[donco6]

106. I haven't seen any, but I wouldn't cry any tears about it. n/t

[shaniqua6392]

112. Separation of Church and State.

The churches want their tax exempt status and yet they interfere in politics? I just don't think they should have both. Let's start removing their tax exemption when they attempt to effect public policy and we could balance the federal budget with the profits.
p.s. I am a Christian who walks out of my church any time they mention politics. It is ridiculous.

[Marrah_G]

114. Yes- in this case they are

As long as they continue to fund campaigns of hate and bigotry they get nothing but contempt from me.

If their members disagree then they should not continue giving them such enormous resources.

Those resources could go to feed the hungry, house the poor, clothe the naked.... but no, they choose to waste it to make sure others are forced to live by THEIR values.

[Malikshah]

119. Yes. Totally. By all means.

Go back and look at the LDS and their attitude in the 1960s about civil rights.

They were on the wrong side of history then; they are on the wrong side of history now.

And they bankrolled the fight-- they must lose their tax exempt status along with other churches, synagogues, mosques who supported Prop 8, Amendment 2 (FL), etc.

[TankLV]

120. FUCKING HELL YES! and, BTW, they are not "vile" - they are SPOT ON!!!

They THREATEN MY AND MY PARTNER'S VERY LIFE!!!