Shut the hell up, Paul Begala! this IS a PROGRESSIVE victory!

[Ken Burch]

The DLC had nothing to do with this. This was a vote AGAINST Clintonism.

Powe to the people!

[Occam Bandage]

1. America just elected a flaming liberal. Centrism wins! ..or something.

[Clintonista2]

78. "Flaming liberal"? huh?

Obama IS centrist. A "flaming liberal" is someone who supports gay marriage and single payer universal health care, etc. Kucinich was a "flaming liberal," Obama is very centrist.

[Kurovski]

88. It appears it was hyperbole in service of a joke to make a point.

The right wing has repeatedly defined Obama as the most liberal senator. The press has discussed him as being a liberal. Most of America would consider him a liberal. he is to the left of center on abortion alone. His focus is more on workers than corporations.

The point was that the right wing of the Dems are taking this as a victory for them, when it is in fact a rejection of their right-leaning corner of the party.

[fascisthunter]

2. DLC's anti-populism will now have to be reconsidered

[Ken Burch]

5. Yes...if by "reconsidered" you mean "riduculed and abandoned"

DLC=Discredited Losing Conservatives.

[fascisthunter]

6. the "conservative" meme is.....

DEAD

[jayfish]

3. We're Like Fans Of An Up And Coming Band.

Responsible for their success but kicked to the curb once they hit it big. Lets see if we can stay relevant.

Jay

[Kurovski]

4. I've very much disliked seeing the reemergence of Begala and the Cajun fuckstick.

They have NOTHING whatsoever to do with this success. Quite the opposite.

[Ken Burch]

7. Why did CNN chose THEM to be the "Democratic" voices tonight, anyway?

Should've had Rachel Maddow and Janeane Garafolo. Maybe Cenk, too.

[blm]

20. Because they are the faces CHOSEN to represent our party by CNN's fascist powerstructure.

Remember they spun against Gore as 'shouldn't have distanced himself from Clinton' and said Kerry lost because he wasn't 'strong on national security' like Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman.

[Kurovski]

55. And wasn't it a phone call about Ohio from the Swamp Thing

that put an end to Kerry efforts there, even while Edwards wished to fight on?

Wasn't it Bob Woodward who revealed the information of that call?

This is not a literary device. I'm really asking. I'm a mess today and can barely even Google.

[blm]

66. Carville certainly DID sabotage Ohio Dem voters in 2004....here's the link from TPM

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[Kurovski]

71. Thanks.

I honestly couldn't even remember Carville's name until you posted that.

[blm]

80. heheh....Swamp Thing works, too.

Except....didn't Swamp Thing have some integrity? Or did you mean Creature from the Black Lagoon? And I think it's OK to note that Mary Matalin IS the Black Lagoon. ;)

[PassingFair]

15. Thank you.

And it has to be said, and I'm only going to say it to you:

McCain ran a cleaner campaign than Hillary did.

:hide:

[Kurovski]

43. How can that be...

when he lifted his material directly from her campaign? :D

(Thank goodness no one can see us--but remember--there are spies EVERYWHERE.

[WinkyDink]

53. I don't recall "Marxist re-distributor" from HRC.

[PassingFair]

56. No, just "hard-working whites" in West Virginia.

I didn't hear much about Rev. Wright until
2 DAYS before the election.

McCain wanted personal religious choices off
the table.

Clinton...not so much.

[WinkyDink]

58. "McCain wanted personal religious choices off the table." Suuuuure.

HUSSEIN. MUSLIM.

[PassingFair]

62. Do you forget WHO released THIS picture:

Hint: Wasn't McCain's campaign.

:eyes:

[Metric System]

101. Hint: That pic has been on the internet since 2006. Oh, and you believe DRUDGE? Because he's the one

who made the accusation.

[PassingFair]

106. Did Drudge come up with the "3:00 Phone Call" ad?

At least McCain emphatically stated that Obama was a Christian.

You know, as opposed to...."As far as I know"....

[Metric System]

109. Oh good grief. I'm not getting into the AFAIK argument again. Anyone with brain could see she only

said that after the interviewer repeated the same damn question over again and again. I suggest you read this Media Matters article:

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200803110002

Bottom line from the article: "to set aside Clinton's denials and suggest that "as far as I know" captured her entire response is patently dishonest."

[PassingFair]

114. I suggest you watch the original interview.

As I have. Several times.

[Kurovski]

60. That's because the DLC understands that Capitalism as we practice it

is already a Marxist re-distribution system. It's a point of pride, and the DLC is honest enough to treat it as such. ;-)

How do you think we got a chance to be America's "good cop" for a term or two? We damn well better dole out funds for the big ones. McCain's campaign chatter dissing Marxism made our bosses nervous. :D

[JCMach1]

21. EEEWWWWW Had an image of Mary Matalin saying, "Come here

my cajun f#$kstick" pop into my head... in a drunken slur of course!

[Kurovski]

46. It was a fine moniker until you added the phrase...

"pop into". :spank:

[Romulox]

90. Ummm, DONNA BRAZILE??? nt

[bridgit]

8. what...

You do know that the primaries are over? You are aware that this is first and foremost the largest refutation of conservative republicanism; conservative republicanism has ever known? Right? Politics of division, yada-yada neocon lunacy? Shit like that?

[Ken Burch]

9. I know that. Nothing I said contradicts that.

People like Begala want us to surrender to the GOP on policy again.

He and Carville have no right to claim this victory for the Tory wing of the party.

It's a people's progressive victory. There's no reason not to shout that from the rooftops.

Cooperation doesn't mean capitulation.

This isn't the DLC's victory. And you know it.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!

[bridgit]

10. On a night such as this one, imo, it serves little purpose to wallow in cold mud...

Belgala comes & goes...Carville? Sleeps with the enemy. "Clinton-ism" has endorsed Barack Obama. The DLC are on their own. And tonight marks a new day in American History.

[Ken Burch]

11. What I posted in this thread was posted in DEFENSE of our great progressive victory.

Begala and the DLC want to piss it down to nothing, and REAL Democrats have to stand together to stop them from doing so.

I want this new day in American history to lead to greater and deeper triumphs. Those guys don't.

So you and I are on the same side. OK?

[bridgit]

12. I'm inclined to disagree; to cite DLC, Clintonism, Belgala, Carville in so straight forward...

a manner is to define what you've loosely-referred-to-by-way-of such a citation as a "DEFENSE of our great progressive victory" by eviscerating the witness' to a vicious, deadly, 20-30 year attack on liberal progressivism. It is to draw the eye from the faces of they far more directly involved with such attacks, far more; while performing diversionary duties on behalf of such direct players as the Bush family, Rove, Cheney, etc, themselves.

Last night was a new day, and this morning is a new tomorrow. I encourage the formation of viewpoints that will hold our truer, unequivocal enemies unequivocally before us, but yeah, that's just me and...

We *are* on the same side ;)

[PassingFair]

22. They have no such qualms about describing Progressives as the "loony left".

NeoCon War enablers should be treated with
skepticism, if not downright disdain.

[bridgit]

25. You're defining "loony left".by not recognizing the pernicious enemies here...

Let's hear your thoughts on the neocon war MONGERS themselves, cause you're leaving me with the impression you're unable to discern any difference between apples and oranges

[PassingFair]

29. WTF? When I call out Democrats for supporting WAR MONGERS...

that makes me "easy on the enemy"?

I am happier than HELL that we Democrats won.

AND I am happier than HELL that OUR CANDIDATE
was NOT DLC!

[bridgit]

32. So you're calling Bill Clinton a war monger, it that right?

Over and above, bush, Cheney, Rove, the entire republican no-bid crony war profiteering RW? Above all that, you've parsed Bill Clinton out as a war mongering apologist? Sorry, but I'm done with blaming the Clinton's for everything under the sun, especially on a day such as this...it's over. Deal, or no deal. Forward is the motion, forward is the pathway. Behind is for people that are stuck there.

[PassingFair]

37. I sorry, I didn't realize that Bill Clinton currently held an elected position.

Forward IS the motion.

Part of moving forward is coming to terms with past wrongs.

We need FORWARD MOVING, PROGRESSIVE leadership.

THAT is the mandate.

[Ken Burch]

39. bridgit, it was enough that progressives were silent in the campaign.

We don't still have to defer now. What is your deal?

It's OUR victory.

[PassingFair]

44. Apparently, we are....

Republican supporters, because we speak
out about collaborators and enablers.

This mind-set brought us Joe Lieberman.

[Ken Burch]

23. Begala and Carville AREN'T on our side, though.

Let's leave it at that.

Those that are calling for "centrism" this morning want to sabotage President-elect Obama. They're the same as the ones who said we shouldn't ask anything of Bill in '93 and '94 because "it's enough that we have a Democratic president".

Plus, Begala kept talking about "Democrat politicians". Need I say more?

[bridgit]

28. Begala & Carville write books, they're on the side of their media agents

But the point of the OP has achieved it's goal...to obfuscate what was a creative, forward thinking moment in American Democratic history

[Ken Burch]

33. Wrong. The goal is to defend Obama from the DLC.

I didn't have to let what Begala said slide to be pro-Obama. Why would you?

He was trying to ratfuck us. People like that have to be stood up to.

Obama's victory is beautiful, and I celebrate it. I celebrate it in part by defending it against the DLC.

Can you please just accept that?

[LaydeeBug]

108. Then why did Obama tap a dlcer for chief of staff? nt

[cynatnite]

13. Clintonism?

:eyes:

This was the strongest repudiation of the republicans ever. That's what this was.

The people made their choice about the Clintons during the primaries.

[bridgit]

97. Agreed!

[D23MIURG23]

103. And that choice was what again?

Oh, that's right, they seem to have gone with the other guy, who was just now affirmed by a majority of the general electorate.

I'm not going to say that I see Obama as one of the most progressive people in the senate, but your post really doesn't make much sense.

[Jennicut]

14. Lets not fight yet guys. Begala has been a great supporter of Obama since the GE

He was genuinely excited last night as was Carville, we are all DEMS.

[olkaz]

16. I'd expect much more of this, just like 2006

The DLC will do everything they can to claim this for themselves, even though they did everything they could to railroad the effort.

It's kinda sad.

[wyldwolf]

17. Sorry, Ken, it isn't

:shrug:

Why ignore the facts?

Obama is not a progressive in the way you employ the term. He's a centrist and will rule as such.

The new Dem senators are centrists.

Not being a DLC member does not equal "progressive."

[Lilith Velkor]

19. That is correct

but guys like him won't listen.

I will enjoy watching them have meltdowns when they finally realize they shat all over their fellow leftists for NOTHING.

[Ken Burch]

What do you mean "shat all over their fellow leftists"?

You're not saying I should've helped McCain by voting Nader, are you?

We couldn't have ever had a progressive moment in this country again if McCain had won.

Ralph was building nothing.

[Lilith Velkor]

74. A blithering non-sequitor

Looks like somebody heard the news about Rahm, and is all butthurt about being chumped. :nopity:

[Ken Burch]

76. Er...what? would you kindly start speaking English?

n/t.

[Lilith Velkor]

86. I am. There are dictionaries available online if you don't know what a word means.

[Ken Burch]

95. I didn't know that Rahm had been approached to be chief of staff

Why the hell were you being snide to me?

Chief of staff isn't an ideological position. It's the position you give to a person who will get stuff done. Rahm's appointment to it isn't a "fuck the progressives" gesture.

Is there a REASON you want Obama's administration to be un-progressive(I.E, a failure)?

[Ken Burch]

99. What's up with YOUR hostility? I wasn't attacking you on a personal level.

I wasn't even THINKING of you.

What's the deal with you?

[Lilith Velkor]

107. When you make bullshit accusations

such as 1) that I was telling you to vote for Nader 2) that I was not speaking English and 3) that I want Obama to fail, you don't get to pretend that those were not personal attacks.

The fact that you tried is not surprising.

[Ken Burch]

110. I wasn't making accusations. I was trying to figure out what you were saying.

I honestly didn't know what your point was. And if I was attacking anything, it was your arguments, not you as a person. I know nothing about you as a person and have no opinions about you on that level. I was just trying to understand what you were saying, and you weren't being at all clear. I promise you, that was all it was. OK?

I'm still not clear what you meant, and you'll have to accept that. But I bear no personal ill will towards you at all.
Trust me, there's no possible way I could do you any harm.

[Lilith Velkor]

111. OK then

My point was that wyldwolf is correct, Obama is and has always been a centrist, not a liberal. Just like the Clintons. (It should go without saying that he's worlds better than McCrazy, but this is DU, where people need to be spoonfed that which is obvious.)

To say that Obama is not a centrist, and that this is some "victory over Clintonism," is complete nonsense.

Do you even remember the Clinton years?

[Ken Burch]

113. Yes, I do.

And to me, one of the major reasons I see that administration as a great disappointment was that too many people insisted, from the outset, that progressives should ask nothing of it and should do nothing to push it in our direction.

And this is not a replication of the 1992 situation.

Bill Clinton only took 43%. Barack Obama has over 52%, and, unlike 1992, the Democrats GAINED seats in both houses of Congress(we lost seats in both houses in '92).

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on what last night meant.

[Romulox]

91. "Butthurt"(sic)??? How progressive of you to use that term! nt

[Lilith Velkor]

112. Please explain what the fuck that has to do with politics.

I don't expect a coherent reply.

[jonnyblitz]

36. You are correct and you have been saying this all along.

you and I have a different political philosophy but I often agree with your assessments.

[paulk]

41. by the middle of next year

this website will be hating on Obama just like it hated on Hillary.

And for the same reasons.

Obama is, was, and will govern as a centrist.

[Ken Burch]

49. You sound like you're looking forward to that.

Look, you can't still be pissed that HRC wasn't nominated. You know she would't have pulled 340+ electoral votes. Why pine for what would only have been a squeaker?

[paulk]

61. I expect vacuous posts from you

and I'm rarely disappointed...

[wyldwolf]

70. It's always amusing, though

[wyldwolf]

63. making an observation based on past events does not equal approval

[JustAnotherGen]

18. I've not forgiven

Paul Begala for climbing under his 'desk' on CNN in reaction to Cynthia McKinney questioning Iraq and 9/11.

She was right.

That fucker was wrong.

Now he needs to shut up.

[AJH032]

24. Really? I saw it as a vote against Bush/Republicanism

It's hard to understand why you would say that...

[PassingFair]

26. Um, because Obama ALREADY cut thru the DLC stranglehold by winning the primary?

And because every voter knows it?

I will be ecstatic not to have to apologize
for DLC policies like NAFTA and the Iraq War
any more.

Just makes being a Democrat THAT much easier!

:)

[AJH032]

27. every voter...

ask the average voter, and I doubt they could identify what the DLC even is.

[PassingFair]

31. They recognize someone who will execute laws to help the commonwealth.

And not a corporate lick spittle.

People believe that he will stand up to
the CRIMINALS that have bankrupted our
country.

The DLC Democrats have been "Vichy" dems.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

30. no more "Republican-lite" Democrats !! NO MORE !!

[Metric System]

45. You must have missed the Senate seat pickups last night. Are Hagan and Warner liberals?

[Hippo_Tron]

54. Well given that they now represent blue states

I think they will be more liberal than we once thought.

[wyldwolf]

93. Warner, Shaheen, both Udalls - DLC

Hagan - centrist... Mark Begich (I'm sure you're rooting for him to lose.)

[rucky]

34. If he wants to consider progressive as mainstream, I say we let him!

[JVS]

35. Success has many fathers, while failure is a orphan.

[Sebastian Doyle]

38. Are the Delusional Lunatic Corporatists trying to claim victory for this already?

Sorry Frommettes, NOT A FUCKING CHANCE!!

If this win goes to anyone besides Obama himself, it's HOWARD DEAN.

And Dean is the anti-DLC. Thank God.


Oh by the way........ You tools are the next ones on the chopping block. :)

[jonnyblitz]

40. boy, you sure are deluded. this is the RETURN of Clintonism

as you are about to find out. the cognitive dissonance on here is going to be a sight to behold.

[Lilith Velkor]

77. ...

:popcorn:

[mtnsnake]

42. Are you ever happy?

Good grief.

[Ken Burch]

50. Yes, I am happy. I don't have to let what assholes like Begala and Carville say slide

to prove that.

Call me happy but vigilant.

[nini]

47. NO..

it was against Bush/Cheney and the fascist tendencies of the current repukes.

:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

52. Why be so adamant in denying that it was a progressive vote?

What do we have to lose by saying it?

It's time to let go of fear and limits.

[nini]

64. You said it was a vote against Clintonism

that is not what THIS election was about.

do you think the huge turnout was because of saying no to clinton?

[PassingFair]

67. I think that was part of it. I really do.

A LOT of independents wanted nothing to do with Clinton.

[Ken Burch]

98. I didn't mean it was a vote of personal dislike in Bill Clinton, and you know it.

I said it was a vote against the limits of his vision of Democratic politics. That's a big difference. I wasn't dissing the man, I was saying we're free of the crippling limits of '92. Can you at least accept my argument if phrased THAT way?

I hope you don't actually want the Obama Administration to be as constrained as our last Democratic presidency.

[Metric System]

48. Just now on CNN, Obama friend Roland Martin said that Obama has studied Reagan and he has also said

last nigh that Obama will be more like Reagan than Clinton, so in some ways I guess you're right. But the way Martin talked, it sounded like Obama has planned a very moderate agenda because he has "learned from Clinton's mistakes" during his first days in office. If you recall, Clinton's first "mistakes" were pushing through liberal policies even though his critics argued he was elected based on a moderate mandate.

[PassingFair]

59. Perhaps he means Obama won't go off half-cocked.

Like the Clintons did.

Though I liked their half-cocked initial IDEAS
better than their NAFTA/De-regulation/Welfare Reform
watered down democratic policies that they ended up
with.

His fidelity problems destroyed his second term.

[Ken Burch]

69. Er...Reagan's agenda was NOT moderate. It's just that he sounded reassuring and safe.

If Obama's agenda was that "moderate" in our direction, he'd be the most progressive and most successful president ever.

[mzmolly]

51. I think we're missing the point. This is a victory that "UNITES" us.

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

57. Kucinich lost big. This is not a "Progressive" victory. It IS, however, a great victory for Truth

and Reason and Sanity.

[PassingFair]

65. Lieberman lost BIGGER.

Are you dissing Kucinich?

[WinkyDink]

73. OFGS. I LOVE DENNIS. I SUPPORTED HIM ABOVE THE REST. I'm MERELY stating

WHAT HAPPENED in the PRIMARIES.

You remember them? When DEMOCRATS REJECTED DENNIS.

[PassingFair]

81. We rejected Clinton, too.

Er, WHAT was your point?

[Ken Burch]

68. Er...Kucinich was reelected last night. What the hell are you talking about?

n/t.

[HughMoran]

72. I'd guess the primary?

:shrug:

[WinkyDink]

75. DK ran for President, you will recall? DEMOCRATS preferred HILLARY and OBAMA, you will recall?

I want S.S. to be a from-the-top-DOWN tax; I WANT DK's Dept of Peace; I marched in NY to hear DENNIS SPEAK against the imminent Illegal Invasion. I find his life experience of having lived in a freakin' CAR to be far more moving than that of ANY other prominent politician.

I am convinced DK's fate nationally lay in his being marginalized by the MSM, literally, during the debates.

But was Obama's victory the same as a Kucinich victory would have been? I'm NOT convinced. (War in Afghanistan, anyone?)

[Ken Burch]

94. No, not exactly the same, but clearly strongly progressive.

And we need to make sure it isn't coopted and watered-down to nothing by the smooth-talkers.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

79. This Is An American Victory. Not A Progressive Victory.

Please, don't make false grandiose claims that only serve to divide.

[Cha]

82. Of course this is about Progress..I don't know what the

heck begala said but dlc is fucking dead.

[PassingFair]

83. I prefer the term "marginalized"....

:hi:

[Cha]

85. I know..I'm letting it all

hang out today. I was a basketcase yesterday and 8 pent up years are spilling out!

It could have so gone the other way if it weren't the Perfect Storm..just look at how many votes mccain did get.

But, Obama and Biden's win is a referendum on Progress, baby, Progress..and facts without hysterical lies.

:hi::party::bounce::toast: PassingFair!

Oh yeah, and Dean!

[PassingFair]

87. Feet to the fire, Zidzi!

Their flanks are exposed!

:patriot:

[Kurovski]

89. Hi zidzi!

Good to see you! :hug:

[Cha]

92. You, too, Kurovski!

Victory:hug::party::bounce::toast:

[Kurovski]

84. My hope is that we will not confuse unity with "ignoring things".

We just keep going in circles in this country because some will by nature wish to "play nice" with people who are only in it for nefarious purposes.

Ken Blackwell was on CNN touting unity, for God sake. Ken-freaking-Blackwell.

I'm all for giving those with criminal natures a second chance, but can they at least serve the time first where required?

And finally, "Eternal vigilance" means just that.

[Oak2004]

96. They *always* claim credit for what we do.

That's why I support the efforts to find primary challengers and dump the most offensive of Democratic right wing officeholders.

They will continue to claim our accomplishments as theirs till they are shut up by force of ballot box.

[D23MIURG23]

100. Obama isn't Kucinich or Finegold, but we'll see how he governs.

Whether this is a victory for "centrism" or "progress" remains to be seen, as does the question of whether it matters at the end of the day. To my mind there is a high premium on pragmatism at this particular juncture.

More to the point, the tactics used to win this election were solid Dean 50 state strategy. Obama did not use DLC tactics, or DLC advisors, and was not afilliated as far as I know. This was therefor not a "DLC victory". Period. A Hillary victory would have been a DLC victory, but we all know what happened there.

But all the people actually feeding the DLC (not us - congressmen and whatnot) already know this, so Begala et. al. may as well save thier breath.

[nickshepDEM]

102. We won because, unlike the Republican party,

...we delivered a message that resonated with liberals, independents, and even right of center Republicans. The Republican party has essentially been marginalized to a socially intolerant southeastern party.

Bashing centrist Democrats will only push us towards a similar fate.

[TheKentuckian]

104. Obama is no leftwing liberal but I also think

its pretty clear that he's not trying to mold us into the GOP without the Fundies either.

The focus is on making sure this is the defeat of Republicanism/Reganomics. The rest of it will catch up as soon as Ronnie Raygun is destroyed as an iconic figure worthy of admiration.

We may have found leadership that cares more about Barney Smith than Smith-Barney, and that is a hell of a start.

[Captain Lance Bass]

105. Obama will rule as a centerist...no codepink,,no progressives..