Heh - Freepers arguing about fonts and abbreviations on TANG memos

[yellowcanine]

This is really funny. Looks as if CBS scored a direct hit on the Freepers. They are desperate to prove the memos to be forgeries. Didn't CBS get these from the Pentagon?

If you want to be a peeping Tom.....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210702/posts

[acmavm]

1. No thanks. I just take intelligent remarks, turn them around 180 degrees,

and I know without going there what they're saying.

[trotsky]

2. Maybe I'm dense but...

the font thing does seem odd. How could these be written up in Times New Roman and signed by a guy who died in 1984? In '84, even if you had a computer for word processing it would have printed it in a fixed font like courier, generally.

I'm sure it has a simple answer, after all, if they WERE forgeries, the forger wouldn't have been that dumb.

Are these "reproductions" of the original memos or something?

[yellowcanine]

4. IBM Mag cards? In the seventies there were primitive IBM word processors

using something called Mag cards ? as I recall. I remember this because I was in graduate school at the time and I know the secretaries hated them.

edit - I realized I might not have answered your question - I don't know but I do believe there were proportional fonts on some of those ancient word processors.

[yellowcanine]

8. I can't stand it! Now the Freepers have me discussing fonts!

Aaaaaargh!!

[madmax]

53. rofl

I spit my soda out on that remark!!! Thanks for the laugh. :hi:

[Norquist Nemesis]

12. We only hated them because

when we made a typo, the white-out had to dry first or the carbon on the ribbon wouldn't adhere. IBMs used an element (little balls each with a different font) that popped in and out easily. Once they came up with little sheets of cover-up that you could stick between the element and the paper, retype the typo, backspace, and type the correction, life was a lot easier. :)

The font type is a rediculous thing to be looking at. Electric typewriters had become vogue by that time, computers generally used dotmatrix printers. Unless there was a standard for the font that was to be used for official documents, the whole font thing is a non-issue.

[jmowreader]

48. The really slick setup was the Selectric III

which had the Correction Key.

IIRC, when you pushed the Correction Key, the machine backed up one space and retyped the character you had typed, but with the cover-up ribbon instead of the carbon ribbon. Very sweet.

The real issue here is that there is an Official Texas Air National Guard Memorandum for File regarding our little dictator that has "CYA" as its title. CYA means Cover Your Ass, not Christian Youth Authority or anything like that.

[JPJones]

91. It wasn't a coverup

The ink was sucked off the paper onto the tape.

[kskiska]

22. I used to operate a MagCard

It was just a thing that hooked up to an IBM Selectric whereby a document could be automatically typed because it was recorded on a thin "card." They used standard typewriter fonts – the IBM Selectric font "ball." The type wasn't proportional.

[Hepburn]

38. The type...

...for some reason I am recalling that it was proportional. No biggie, but that seems to stick in my mind. Heck, I have used so many different WP systems over the years, I am probably just thinking of something else.

[kskiska]

49. There were two types of mono type – elite and pica

Elite was smaller than Pica. The Selectrics had a gizmo that allowed you to switch from one to the other, but they were both mono spaced.

[Hepburn]

59. I think the Selectric Composer was different, tho.

I pulled up a brochure from 1968 about this machine and it had instruction on how to disable proportional type.

LOL, boy, is this discussion taking me back waaaaaaaay too many years!!

[GingerSnaps]

29. My Mom used one at home for her job (IBM 3250)

We had an old one at home and it punched holes into cards and you couldn't duplicate the font.

[Hepburn]

35. IBM Mag

The first IBM Mag came out - I think - in about 1971. They were typewriters actually, but they did all of the subscript fonts as WP and/or MSW do automatically now. Yep, and I hated the dang thing. I was not a secretary....but those machines were a pain in the ass. Cumbersome as all hell and as I recall locked up all the time.

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

5. Supposedly some typewriters did that

Before Word Processors got good, typewriters were getting pretty cool, too. The IBM Executive is a typewriter of that era which does use proportional spacing.

[maine_raptor]

6. Yup and that typewriter had a "ball" of type that could be switched out

for different fonts, italicized, etc. No Biggie here, move on folks.


On Edit: Think it was an IBM Selective brand.

[aquart]

28. Executives did NOT use a switchable ball.

They were proportional and hateful. Typing a column of numbers with an IBM Executive could lead to serious mental breakdown.

Correcting Selectrics, however, were the best typewriters ever made. Ever.

[Hepburn]

36. I liked the Smith Corona's ...

...when they came out with a memory correct system. All you had to do was hit it and it corrected. With a Selectric, you had to fool with that little key down at the bottom on the right - with the "X" on it as I recall - and key in every letter to be corrected. Sheesh - White out and correction tape!!!!!!!! OMG - ICK!!!!!!!!!

Man, is this discussion taking me back....way too far back. Bless my computer and Word Perfect that I have today! I forgot what a pain in the butt it used to be to type long pleadings and/or documents.

[aquart]

104. It's still in my Mom's basement.

My beloved Smith Corona.

But nothing beat the Correcting Selectric. It was secretary heaven.

[Jersey Devil]

13. Yes indeed, IBM Executives did that in the early 70's

The first office I worked at had them. That freeper is fullabull.

[LuminousX]

18. An IBM Selectric Composer in 1966 did proportional fonts

http://www.ibmcomposer.org/SelComposer/description.htm

[kskiska]

25. I used an IBM Composer to set type around 1976

It wasn't used for everyday stuff like letters, unless they were form letters typeset and printed. It was cumbersome to use for a standard typist, but was a precursor to photo-typesetters. The type was proportional, though. Today, most typesetting is done on regular computers.

[aquart]

24. Executives had a proportionally smaller superscript?

That I don't remember.

Understand, I believe the memos to be right and true. But it's fair for the freepers to raise this question and I would like the correct answers.

[vetwife]

101. Typewriter I had used replaceable ball and it was in the 70's.

I think they got the memos from the Military. I have no doubt its the real deal.

[On the Road]

7. I Have to Say the Freepers Have a Point About the Font

it does look proportionally spaced, and that was unusual for a long time afterwards.

[aquart]

27. Proportional is easy to account for. Superscript, though?

I don't remember being able to do that until pretty recent pc word processing programs. But I know there were early word processors out there. I remember being trained on a Wang.

I just want to know what machine made the superscript.

[On the Road]

43. I Remember Doing Superscripts

by physically moving the platen (roller) up, typing the character, and then moving it back. The platens even moved in "bumps" of half a line, presumably so you could do superscripts and subscripts more easily.

Now, I don't know if this accounts for it. The most damning thing seems to be that the White House released identical documents. That seems to show it wasn't just someone on the outside who got a bright idea a month ago. It would seem that if the documents are forgeries, they would have to be old (before the White House obtained their documents) AND have come from within the Army.


But the details are still a little murky to me. The best thing about the questions is that they keep the story alive.

[LuminousX]

15. Google saves the day

http://www.ibmcomposer.org/SelComposer/description.htm

[yellowcanine]

19. Mag cards around in late 60s - see here - MY LAST POST ON FONTS

http://www.etypewriters.com/history.htm

No more "fontosizing" for me. Let the Freepers do it if they want.

[aquart]

23. Fascinating. Could it also do the Superscript "th"?

Just to get that little thing out of the way.

[Sarvis]

31. superscripts

I haven't been reading all the details and arguments (can only stand so much of the freepers site), but I have done "superscript" many times on a typewriter by just rolling the paper feed wheel back a click, typing the characters I want superscripted, and then rolling the wheel into place again.

Just my quickie answer to people wondering how new a machine has to be to do superscript. I would say, well, since they've had typewriters. :)

[aquart]

40. That wouldn't make it smaller.

[formernaderite]

64. Correct, the font wouldn't be smaller...

....oh, please don't let this be a forgery....and only because there will be a backlash.

[DaveOinSF]

65. Superscript

If it was an IBM Selectric, he could have just changed the typeball to one with a smaller font size, manually raised the platen 1/2 a line, and typed a "t" and an "h".

Then, he could have replaced the original typeball, and returned the platen to the original position.

Also note, that no special "th" character is needed.

[aquart]

105. Have a friend who said there was a special "th" character

On the Selectric she used in exactly that year.

I'm not familiar with it.

[Unperson 309]

44. I superscripted on an old Underwood Noiseless Manual typer!

I named her Helen damnation, that old typewriter! My grandmother got her back in 1925 and she was OLD! The typer, I mean.

I used her to type college papers and I definitely recall doing superscripted characters by rolling the platen up half a line.

So yeah, typewriters mande in the 1920's did superscript!

I hated the IBM Office Electric when it came out... the touch on the keyboard was so "goosey" that you would type a whole line of letters kkkkkkkkk if you lingered on the keys for a second! I was used to hammering out letters on the manual! I could drive nails with my fingertips, practically, and electric typers were hard to get used to!

I loved the Selectric when it came out. You had a 'rest' position where you could put a bit of pressure on the key before it clicked.

Memories!

309

[yellowcanine]

32. I said I was done - but......I would be willing to bet that those old IBMs

had a special shift key for doing superscripts and subscripts. Almost had to because those typewriters were used to type scientific and technical papers where that capability is essential.

Besides all that - only the Freepers are questioning the authenticity of these documents - that should tell you something. They ALWAYS question the authenticity of documents that inconveniently disrupt their worldview.

[aquart]

42. Email from a friend answers me:

"Having been an office clerk that very year...I can tell you the IBM Selectric had a key for that."

[LuminousX]

47. It is actually a good defense mechanism

First force the people making the assertions to prove the accuracy of their assertions before making one comment about the assertions.

Make them prove the memos aren't a forgery before commenting on the subject matter. They know this is damning to their man, so they are delaying the inevitable as much as possible.

[jmowreader]

52. Question for anyone who's actually used a Composer

I know a Selectric had two fractions on the ball--1/4 and 1/2.

Did the Composer have a "th" superscripted character on its ball? It would have made sense that it did.

[foo_bar]

62. nope

http://www.ibmcomposer.org/SelComposer/Manual/toc.htm

[DaveOinSF]

66. It's not a "th"

It's a "t" and an "h", just in a smaller font.

[Hepburn]

34. Proportional font typewriters...

....first came out somewhere in the mid-1940's. IBM Selectric Typewriters had proportional fonts - the golf ball type Selectric - as far back as I can remember. I started typing legal pleadings in the 1960's and Selectrics were like this way back then. Also, I first started doing heavy word processing on computers and/or dedicated word processors in the 1980's and proportional fonts were a standard thing. The Wang (I think) WP system came out in the early 1970's and they were "state of the art" then and did all of what is seen in the memos.

BTW: Anyone else remeber 24-pin "near letter quality" dot matrix printers or daisy wheel printers??? EGADS...does that go back a few years - and what a pain they were! LOL, remember loading tractor feed paper into the printer? Wow, were those the dark ages.

IMO: As USUAL the Freepers and grasping at straws.

[wtmusic]

3. "It *couldn't* be my own f*cked up beliefs, it just *couldn't* be..."

:D

[dumpster_baby]

9. here are some of the posts that talk about this

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12524_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forgeries
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210662/postsA post at FreeRepublic sums up the situation:

Howlin, every single one of these memos to file is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman.

In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts.

The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers. They were not widespread until the mid to late 90’s. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn’t used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80’s used monospaced fonts.

I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old.

This should be pursued aggressively.

The memo dated Aug. 18, 1973 is a particularly egregious example, with curly apostrophes and a superscript “th” (unknown on the typewriters of 1973):

posted by Charles at 8:32 AM PST | rss
email this article



...

#4 William 9/9/2004 08:37AM PST


Haven't looked into these specific memos, but he's exactly right about proportionally spaced fonts vs monospaced fonts.

That memo image, dated 1973, would never have appeared in that proportionally spaced, Times Roman font.

What a huge blunder for whoever thought they would hurt Bush with this pap...

[maine_raptor]

11. These guys are talking out there fundie

see post #6 above

Those docs look exactly like that's what was used.

[dumpster_baby]

14. "a 'Bush Operative' did this to pull a Baba Booey on the media"!

One of the Freepers said:
"Wouldn't it be awesome if a 'Bush Operative' did this to pull a Baba Booey on the MSM?"

Wow! That is just what this looks like! Remember how Rove USED Hatfield to break the Bush coke story? Rove CHOSE Hatfield knowing that as a convicted murderer, Hatfield would be discredited, ALONG WITH the whole story.

Ouch!

[tandot]

10. AWWW...to find out that your war hero is actually a war ZERO

must be extremely hard to take.

While other Americans spilled their blood in Vietnam, Bush snorted coke and was AWOL

[LuminousX]

16. And see how they gloss over his crimes

they say even if he did do this, he is a great man so nothing should come of it.

Cheneying conservative relativists.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

17. Enough with the font discussion

The White House released the very same documents last night after 60 minutes and they did NOT contest their authenticity. Just admitted they had "found" additional documents. Flip, flop, splish, splash, Bush is taking a bath when the freepers have to result in discussion of typewriter fonts from three decades ago. They got nuthin.

[aquart]

37. CBS SAID they showed the memos to an expert.

I'm not doubting the authenticity. I'd just like to know the machine that was used.

[npincus]

20. don't the shitheads know the WH has released duplicates of the same memos?

so how could they be forgeries?

[yellowcanine]

21. Stop trying to confuse them with facts and logical thinking. We dont'

want any Freeper head explosions around here. Too messy.

[John BigBootay]

56. The WH "released" the documents that CBS faxed to them

[murray hill farm]

26. yep..fun to read..hahahahaha

They are freaking over there...what fun! The are grasping pathetically...and just generally in panic mode. Thanks for that link..it made my day!

[alarcojon]

30. let me get this straight

someone spit out blatant forgeries on their PC and didn't even think about the fact that the technology was different thirty-some years ago? Hell, if I were to try that, I would at least break out the old typewriter in my mom's attic.

and then CBS falls for it? and then the White House doesn't immediately challenge it?

[LuminousX]

33. Not only doesn't the WH challenge it, but releases its own copies

[mosin]

39. Do you have a link for that info?

That would seem to put an end to the forgery argument. I saw one link to a CNN article, but the CNN article didn't say that the WH released these particular memos, just that the TANG released a bunch of new documents.

[LuminousX]

46. Apparently the White House didn't release its own copies

but was commenting on the copies it was given.

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2004/09/09/news/news23.txt

[mbali]

58. And they didn't challenge the truthfulness or authenticity of the docs

Don't you think that, if these documents were forgeries or contained false information, Bush would know it (since he certainly knows what his interaction with Killian was during that time) and the WH would be debunking them like crazy?

They haven't because they can't and, even if they were willing to compound their lies with more lies about these documents, they have no idea what other documentary evidence is out there and who has it.

[Truth is True]

60. ABC confirms, and thickens the plot

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040909_1710.html

[Spazito]

70. LOL

I don't see how that is a confirmation of anything.

[Truth is True]

72. It confirms that CBS gave the docs to WH

and it appears to be identical to an AP release I also saw posted in LBN.

[Spazito]

80. It says nothing about forgeries

just that CBS sent copies to the White House. It does clear up the question of where the WH got them from which is good.

[Walt Starr]

41. Seems they've discovered their theories are false

and the thread is at an impasse.

[BlueHandDuo]

45. Where can we download this PDF file...

...so that we can analyze it ourselves?

Oops, sorry -- big red links staring me in the face!

[Walt Starr]

50. BANG, I can debunk their claim!

If you use Word, first of all the number 1 is different in the font on the document that you will find in Word.

Second, if superscripts are used in Word, it will superscript the "st" in 1st Lt.

Third, if you type it out in Word, it looks NOTHING like the original.

This was done on an IBM Executive Typewriter with Times Roman font, NOT in MS Word.

[Gothmog]

51. Freeper theory is being discussed on Disney board

The idiotic theory from the freepers is being discussed on a disney discussion board also. Seehttp://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=0558a126a074758f39009411d2b00c65&threadid=641542

[aquart]

99. Good. It means they know the memos are devastating.

Discuss every line, letter, and word, boys.

[cheshire]

54. I saw a good arguement against that bs this morn. Some ? about old type

vs new type ability. It quashed their thought that only old typewriters were used in the late 60's.

[Walt Starr]

55. Older typewriters were still used in teh early 70's

In the military, the low folks on the totem pole would have to use the older equipment while the Lt. Colonel's secreatary would get the new IBM Executive typewriter.

[mbali]

57. If they WERE forgeries, WH would be screaming bloody murder . . .

Bush knows whether or not they are authentic - since they memorialize conversations and contacts he had with Killiam. If these documents were fiction, Bush would know it and the WH would have come out swinging. But they haven't said a peep about the documents being untrue - their only response has been "he got an honorable discharge" and "Democrats are bad people." They know that they're dead on and also know they can't claim otherwise - who knows what other documents are out there somewhere that corroborate this information? They've already been caught in several bald-faced lies - all they need is to get busted AGAIN over these very same documents.

[TomNickell]

61. Typewriters whack the page and make a dent.

And under a microscope, the type from a Selectric film should be altogether different than the output of a laser or inkjet printer.

If you saw the original, it ought to be very easy to tell the difference between something typed on a real typewriter and the output of a laser or inkjet.

[Hepburn]

69. Absolutely...

...the old typewriters indeed did "twack" the paper and left a mark when typing. I remember that I used to use two sheets of paper when I used one of the old electric typewriters in order to absorb some of the pressure. I did not even think about this until I read your post. But IMO you are right on with this comment.

[OilemFirchen]

63. Snark!

http://www.selectric.org/selectric/

"Sorry, but due to excessive conspiracy theory hits, this page is temporarily out of service.

Please check back after the election."

[Walt Starr]

67. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

That's a HOOT!

[TrueAmerican]

68. I'm sure there would be other documents not related to Bush

All you have to is find one to compare.

[Charley_Dog]

71. "I'm sure there would be other documents not related to Bush..."

All CBS needs to do is produce just one of those to act as provenance to the Bush/Killian memos. If they have access to Killians files as they said they do, it should be a very small matter to provide provenance and stick this one down the White House's throat. (And then we can gag the Freepers with it too.)

[Walt Starr]

73. Maybe they held back irrelevant documents

to fight any potential accusation of forgery.

That would be a good CYA move, anyway.

[Mick Knox]

74. Face it - 60 minutes was had

I'm having a real hard time just dismissing all this evidence.

I am suspecting someone did this to make Kerry look bad when it was so easily proven to be false.

Even Selectric museum is saying the memos are frauds now
http://www.selectric.org/selectric/index.html

Hook line and sinker.

Maybe I'm paranoid but I would start thinking about WHAT IF they are forgeries.

[Walt Starr]

75. Paranoia will destroy ya

I don't buy the "it's a fake" story one bit.

[Mick Knox]

76. Tell me why not

I respect your work you've done with research.

I've read tons now - and I'm really starting to think 60 minutes just swallowed the enchilada and Rove is sitting somewhere laughing his ass off.

[Walt Starr]

77. Because I've TRIED to duplicate it in Word

You can't. The numbers don't fit with the font. The other bit is the "st" would also be a superscripted in "1st Lt."

The claims to have "duplicated" the documents in Word are, quite frankly, bunk!

[Mick Knox]

78. You dont have to

superscript with word. You can have a normal 1st in MS Word. I undo auto correction all the time if it changes something I dont want to change.

Some site linked on DU has a comparison up where they were someone who copied them had them superimposed over each other and they were identicle.

I'm not arguing with you walt but thats not true about word and 1st.

You can superscript 1st or not superscript it with word.

[Walt Starr]

82. Oh good gravy

The point is, the "st" and the "th" are in the same fucking document. Turn off the auto correct and the "th" isn't superscripted.

[Mick Knox]

85. Do you know how to use MS Word Well?

Because I do.

You leave autocorrect ON

If it autocorrects something you dont want autocorrected then you simply hit undo and go on. You dont HAVE to turn it off.

DOnt get short with me. I use MS Word for a living practically. I'm just telling you FACTS you may not be aware of so you can be more informed about how MS Word works... since you are pretending it is gospel MS Word MUST superscript something when that is not true.

Give it a try with MS Word since you dont know how to do it.

Type 111th with auto correct on, hit return

Hit undo

Move your cursor back down to the line you returned to.

For a simple test.

[Walt Starr]

87. It's debunked

My point was pretty simple. Why leave superscripting out on one part and put it in on another? If you're forging you just wouldn't do that.

[Walt Starr]

84. Look at post 79

If these documents were forgeries, so were the records Bush released.

[Mick Knox]

86. Feel better

Thanks to the noob

The superscript argument was lame though.

[0rganism]

90. And what if the guy who runs selectric.org is a freeper?

It's a very recent hobby site, not commercial, or the admin would have welcomed the hits instead of shutting the site down. Anyone want to look into Mr. Forbes' affilliation with freeperville?

Domain Name:SELECTRIC.ORG
Created On:24-Mar-2004 03:23:11 UTC
Last Updated On:23-May-2004 03:46:50 UTC
Expiration Date:24-Mar-2006 03:23:11 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R34-LROR
Status:OK
Registrant ID:DOT-NGGVSMKJSUA1
Registrant Name:Jim Forbes
Registrant Street1:6999 Canada Dr
Registrant City:Sierra Vista
Registrant State/Province:AZ
Registrant Postal Code:85650
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:[phone]
Registrant Email:[e-mail]
Admin ID:DOT-UXW3YMI2OMM4
Admin Name:Jim Forbes
Admin Street1:6999 Canada Dr
Admin City:Sierra Vista
Admin State/Province:AZ
Admin Postal Code:85650
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:[phone]
Admin Email:[e-mail]
Tech ID:DOT-EZG070HYUV3E
Tech Name:Jim Forbes
Tech Street1:6999 Canada Dr
Tech City:Sierra Vista
Tech State/Province:AZ
Tech Postal Code:85650
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:[phone]
Tech Email:[e-mail]
Name Server:DNS1.GIANTWEBSPACE.COM
Name Server:DNS2.GIANTWEBSPACE.COM

[shawn703]

106. This guy is on DU

Look for the handle jforb

[SoCalDemocrat]

100. IBM Selectric II

IBM Selectric II supports superscript and subscript. It was available in 1972. I researched it.

Bush needs to answer up on these charges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter



The Selectric typewriter was first released in 1961 and is generally considered to be a design classic. After the Selectric II was introduced a few years later, the original design was designated the Selectric I. The Correcting Selectric II differed from the Selectric I in many respects:

The Selectric II was squarer at the corners, whereas the Selectric I was rounder.

The Selectric II had a Dual Pitch option to allow it to be switched (with a lever at the top left of the "carriage") between 10 and 12 characters per inch, whereas the Selectric I had one fixed "pitch".

The Selectric II had a lever (at the top left of the "carriage") that allowed characters to be shifted up to a half space to the left (for inserting a word one character longer or shorter in place of a deleted mistake), whereas the Selectric I did not.

The Selectric II had optional auto-correction (with the extra key at the bottom right of the keyboard), whereas the Selectric I did not. (The white correction tape was at the left of the typeball and its orange take-up spool at the right of the typeball.)

The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts), whereas the Selectric I did not.

[MazeRat7]

79. Same font in other previously released document....

Hey folks, well this is my first post so I hope you enjoy....
That intro aside, I was sitting around tonight and heard the buzz about the "fonts". Specifically the superscripted "th". So I went looking at the other docs released previously. Guess what, that same super scripted "th" is in this one....

Check out lines 2 & 5 of this copy from the first set of documents...Chronological Listing of Service ()

Line 2 uses the scripted "th" and line 5 does not.... so I guess the theory that "70's vintage typewriters can't do that"....is some what in question...

Enjoy,
MZ7

[Walt Starr]

83. BAM, the SAME font, superscripted AND proportional type!

I KNEW I saw that same font in his records and had not had the chance to search through all that crap again!

[Protected]

88. deleted

.

[renotyme]

92. not proportional font

this document does not have a proportional font. good work on finding the superscripted 'th' though.

[MazeRat7]

98. Glad I could assist.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

94. "th" in line 2 versus "th" in line 5

The "th" in line 2 of the document you scanned has exactly the appearance of the "th" character printed by an Olympia typewriter. The letters are not superscripted, they are smaller than the other characters, and they are underlined.

The "th" in lines 5 and 6 would not have been made by use of the "th" key on an Olympia. They would have been made by typing the letters "t" and "h" in order.

This document, undoubtedly not from Killian, is monospaced.

[jackieforthedems]

81. What Goes Around

comes around is all I have to say about that.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

89. "th" as a Typewriter Character? No Problem on an Olympia

On the ABC Evening News tonight, one of the alleged discrepancies on the documents showing that Bush went AWOL rather than serve was the small "th" character in the word "147th". The narrator of the episode said reported the claim that no typewriter could print this character.

As soon as I saw that, I knew he was wrong. My first typewriter, which I still have, is a 60s-era Olympia SG1-L manual office typewriter. It has a "th" key. I never threw out the Olympia sales literature. Examining it, I see that Olympia offered several keyboards as options - Mathematiacal, Navigation, and Physics, to name three - and that a "th" key was standard on the Olympia American 3 - No. 7397 keyboard. As they say of motorcycles, it could do this right off the showroom floor.

Several typefaces and pitches were available, such as (for typefaces) Diamond, Manuscript, Wlite, and Pica, among many others, and (for pitches) 10, 11, 12, 14, and 17 letters per inch.

Furthermore, Olympias had federal stock numbers. That is, they could be ordered for use in federal government offices with a minimum of paperwork. It is entirely possible that an Olympia typewriter would end up at a National Guard facility. Not all typewriters back then were made by IBM. The document could just as easily been typed on a Royal or a Remington too. Limiting the discussion to typefaces available on the IBM Selectric eliminates a lot of possibilities.

I don't know enough to comment on proportional spacing in the documents. One imagines that CBS would have had the documents vetted by someone who is capable of examining them for authenticity. That would strike me as a much more obvious detail than the type of phone cord (coiled versus not coiled) or stock number of Kodak film used in Fox's "Alien Autopsy" TV show of a few years back. The "th" key, though, is not a showstopper.

Going off-topic, if I may, I have read claims that producing a document with proportional spacing with a computer was not possible until the 90s. Mac owners know that this statement is not true. It was possible to connect the original Mac, the 128K, to a laser printer Everyone who remembers Mac's Super Bowl "big brother" commercial recalls that the original Mac arrived on the scene in 1984. It was quickly supplanted by models with more RAM and internal hard drives.

Even though the 128K had only 128kb RAM, Apple's original LaserWriter was a Post Script printer full of Adobe ROM chips. I'd have to check some old editions of the "Macintosh Bible" to be sure, but it seems to me you could print using any typeface and size that was stored in the printer's ROM chips.

Laser printers and desktop printers were the killer apps that set the Mac apart in an era of PCs that were still just big, slow, clumsy, expensive typewriters.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[mahatmakanejeeves]

95. "th", centering

"3 - small "th" single element not generally available"

Easy on an Olympia. One keystroke. Standard feature.

"20 - it would have been nearly impossible to center a letterhead with proportional spacing without a computer."

The blank forms with letterheads came from a printshop. Then you would type whatever you want on the page.

[Chomskyite]

96. n/t

29 - This poster is obviously not a documents examiner

[vetwife]

102. That is bull. I was a typist for 20 years ! You are one scared bunny !

[AmerDem]

97. They are trying to stop their endless bout of diarrhea.

Since this story broke, most have a violent case of the shits!:hurts:

[ibegurpard]

103. Don't laugh

Now a bunch of DUers are too. :eyes: