I don't like this AWOL story one bit

[troublemaker]

As a political issue it doesn't matter what it is or isn't in reality or how substantial the allegations are. To non-partisans this sounds like whining, and that's all that matters.

These Bush people are good at being pricks who seem to be born understanding the nastier dynamics of the playground. Football and basketball fans are well aware of the retaliation foul--somebody smacks you and you smack him back, but only you get called for a foul. The first smack draws attention from the refs out of the corners of their eyes, and they turn just in time to see you retaliate.

In BALL FOUR Jim Bouton describes how each time he changed teams he had to establish a reputation as a bad-ass. Being a pitcher he wasn't the most physically imposing guy, but he figured out how to get in fights without getting hurt. Paraphrasing, sometime when the clubhouse is crowded just pick some petty disagreement with the baddest guy on the team and run over and slug him. With the whole team around you can count on being pulled apart before anyone gets hurt. Then you make up with the big guy and explain how hot-headed you are and you're home free.

Anyway, I have a bad feeling about AWOL2 and I hope it goes away immediately. People will blame Kerry for this. (Less for going after Bush than for making the TV news boring and annoying.) Kitty Kelley's book, on the other hand, is probably a good thing. It's probably less fair and less relevant than AWOL2 but it lowers Bush's deity factor. It is a good thing for people to make fun of Bush because his whole scene is based on supposed perfection.

[PretzelWarrior]

1. I just want pictures of him riding a prostitute

I know they're around somewhere. Come on, Neil. Take one for the team. Your family will certainly hunt you down and kill you...but better you than a whole country.

WE WANT THE PICTURES! WE WANT THE PICTURES!

[Webster Green]

8. LOL!

Eee Haa!

Ride 'em cowboy!

[AmerDem]

2. I dont agree with you at all!

Many of these so called non-partisans you speak of (who ever they are) will be pissed that a guy like shrub refused to seperate himself from the swift boat liar ads and then have this information on his own service show up!

[Cha]

20. I like this awol story...it's about time bush

gets called on his LIES! Whining, my red, white, and blue, ass!

Isn't that what the swift boaters for Lies are doing?

We're telling the truth!

[bringbackfdr]

3. Point well taken

However, the AWOL story is relevant in that it shows what a goddamned hypocrite Shrub is. If Kerry set himself up for swiftliars with his convention performance, Shrub set himself up for this by playing dressup in his flight suit and jumping onto the aircraft carrier to proclaim "mission accomplished.''
And there is a rather large difference between swiftliars and AWOL; swiftliars was the product of a shamelessly partisan attack group. AWOL has been reignited by mainstream media outlets.

[Dr Fate]

4. We fail everytime we REFUSE to tell the truth about Bush.

All we need to do is tell the TRUTH about Bush.

So long as we are not making anything up, then it's fair game. This is a perfect answer/balance to the swift-boat stuff. THe great thing is we dont have to make anything up.

I reject the notion that the American public does not respond to attacks in favor of the attacker.

I'm not saying we go "negative"- I'm saying we forcefully tell the truth about Bush while putting forth our own vision on the issues...

[Catfight]

5. I totally agree, the truth will ALWAYS set you free! The repugs have

their dirty bag of tricks and lies, but we have the truth on our side. At least the voters will go to the polls with the knowledge of the truth instead of what radio heads and Fox Flops says.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

39. The truth will set you free?

I wish. Do you remember Florida?

[Karenina]

63. It's all about CHARACTER!

:evilgrin:

[A_Possum]

6. Bah

Bush prances around saying he's "proud of his service" and it turns out his service consists of disobeying orders and trying to whine his way out of drills. Not to mention he's been lying recently about how he completed it.

It's a character issue, and a responsibility issue. Not just then, but NOW. Instead of admitting he was a slacker and a draft dodger, he's "PROUD of his service."

Pugs will blame Kerry, sure. So what?

[seabeyond]

7. i agree, that is why i was thinking first thing kerry needs to

say out loud to everyone, not into this. not my thing. i want nothing to do with this attack on bush national guard record

the story will keep going, but he would have stood against it immediately

it does sound like whining, but this is what they people go to in taking someone down. obviously ignoring warnings of 9/11, not handling it well day of, getting out of afghanistan, going to iraq and doing a bad job, a huge deficit, tax reduction for rich, emptying treasury, lieing on his numbers, smearing opponents isnt something people are into

[aquart]

9. What a gutless response. Let's all hide in a hole.

And shiver for fear a Republican will take offense.

[bigtree]

10. republicans

ooh, scary! :scared:

[troublemaker]

31. .

[bigtree]

36. So you think I'm a child, what's your point?

Monday’s child is fair in face,
Tuesday’s child is full of grace,
Wednesday’s child is full of woe,
Thursday’s child has far to go,
Friday’s child is loving and giving,
Saturday’s child works hard for its living

-Anonymous

[seabeyond]

14. no aquart , it is having a whining society

and knowing what it sounds like. some new person was speaking saying the dems like this, it is energizing them and that is a good thing for them. so let kerry be out of it, and lets all pump it up and play with it and have fun with it, an hit back or educating public on bush isnt honest, he is a liar

[troublemaker]

32. .

[bobbyboucher]

54. Hey, what's with the periods? Just a period.

Is this some secret code to yourself?

It's stupid.

[Carolinian]

11. I think it's our duty to expose the real Mr. Bush to all the young voters

who weren't involved in politics during the last election. I also think that as Commander-in-Chief Mr. Bush shouldn't ask for anything from these young people that he didn't ask from himself at the same age. Don't worry about whining - you've got to get people to think. (Just like Cheney's awful remark did.)

[grasswire]

12. If you were one of those...

...who worked like a dirty dog prior to the 2000 election to break the story of Bush's TANG history with NO success, you might feel differently. Some people have been working to inform the American people of the truth for four years. The people deserve to know the character of the candidates. This isn't about skipping drills. It's about lying, and it's about lying in order to send troops to battle.

Bush has no moral authority to send troops to battle. Someone from Midland-Houston (probably a brown-skinned fellow) went in his place. Someone slogged through rice paddies and perhaps was captured, wounded or KIA -- in place of Bush.

This is about lying about lying.

[troublemaker]

18. This election is not about vindicating all of your hard work

[Cha]

24. No, but this election is about Winning and I applaud

those who have worked so hard to expose the Lies and Failures of this band of zealots.

Hell no, exposing bush's awol is "whining"!

[Renew Deal]

13. That's how I felt after seeing the story.

It's a distraction from Kerry and what he is trying to say. I thought of it the same way you did.

[Jim Sagle]

25. Chickenshit bullshit.

[Renew Deal]

29. OK thanks

Right. I am the chickenshit. I want to attack the bastard as what he is, a flip flopping, lying, chickenshit, poor excuse for a president. I guess dissent has been outlawed at DU. Bush has taught you well.

[Jim Sagle]

43. I don't understand. This AWOL story will help do just what you want -

expose w as a lying piece of shit. :wtf:

[troublemaker]

47. Everybody already knows he's a liar. He needs to be too scary

to remain in office. Failing to spend the right number of hours drilling somewhere isn't scary. (Missing a flight physical because you're a drug addict is, however, potentially scary. That's the only significance of AWOL2)

[Jim Sagle]

49. To me, having a psychopathic liar in the WH is scary.

Knowing that that psychopathic liar has the clout to make his lies stick via the use of a whore media is even scarier.

But maybe that's just me.

[Zookeeper]

15. But Kerry has been slammed nightly by the pundits...

for not fighting back. If he lets AWOL2 blow over, he'll be labeled a wuss.

Bush has never been held accountable for anything in his life! I want to see his sordid, cowardly past laid bare for every voter in this country to see!

[troublemaker]

26. I'm not objecting to this KIND of attack. It's this particular attack.

People who don't even know who to vote for will not understand whatever nuances distinguish this from the first round of AWOL stories. It's a bad media storyline insofar as it sounds like old news, exudes an aura of weakness and, worst of all, forces Kerry to parrot all of Bush's lines about how he has no connection to these people.

Kerry probably DOESN'T have any connection with them, but now it will sound like Kerry is lying just like Bush was lying. We want people to think Bush was behind SBVFT. And they do. Now they will think Kerry is behind this. In relative terms it lowers Kerry more than it lowers Bush. (The world is indeed not fair)

This would have been a GREAT story in April, adding "disobeying a direct order" to the original AWOL onslaught.

[Zookeeper]

55. I see your point, but...

I'm sure the responses will be as varied as the voters. Some people will have their eyes opened and some will dismiss the ad as "payback." Probably, some people will be tired of stories about "Vietnam" (even though that's not really the subject), but the truth needs to be told, for the record.

[napi21]

16. I disagree with you. This is proof that ALL the stories about

shrubs TANG service were lies! You're right that it donesn't matter so much what he did 35 years ago, but it does matter that he's on tape FOUR YEARS AGO saying "My dad had NOTHING to do with me gitting in the NG." "I fulfilled my duty and was honorably discharged!"

This is important, not because it matters about ancient history, but shows the honesty and character of the man who wants to be President for another 4 years!

[abburdlen]

17. Not the crime but the cover-up

I agree that Kerry doesn't need to go after the AWOL story per se.
Comment should be along this line:

"Was he AWOL? Did he meet his obligations? That's not sure that's for me to say. But I am sure like all of us, Bush has made mistakes and done things that he's not proud of. Yes there are many who did not serve because they had family connection. It doesn't make it right but the past is the past. And it is a time for healing the wounds of that sad time in Americas history.

What isn't excusable is Bush's pattern of trying to cover up his mistakes with lies, half-truths and attacks on his critics. The American people deserve a President who will be honest with them, even when the truth isn't flattering."

Then go on about wanting to get back to the real issues, health care, the economy and getting more of our troops home rather than sending more of our sons and daughters to die in Iraq.

[blue neen]

19. A liar is a liar is a liar...that's why the American public needs

to know about this--so we can get Chimpy's lying ass out of office.

[Jim Sagle]

21. Chickenshit bullshit.

[union_maid]

22. I don't think it's the be-all and end-all, but it's the truth

Our president is the biggest fraud that's ever been perpetrated upon an all too willing public. "All hat and no cattle" is the kindest way to describe this man. This is just one piece of the truth. Do you realize that until the whole AWOL flap...the second one, I mean, not the first back in 2000..a lot of people thought that Bush was a Vietnam vet and a hero? Well, they did. At least now they know better than that.

[necso]

23. I don't know,

it might seem tit for tat.

We should be positive -- our message is positive -- but in some minds this might seem weak. I don't know.

But sometimes a gentleman must take off his gloves, get down in the gutter and fight it out with the lackeys of some thug (being a "gentleman", of course, he wouldn't himself). ("I cans only stands so much and I can'st stands no more!")

However, when you do this you had better win!

But then again I don't like even to recognize this level of things, and I can therefore, be excused, perhaps, for not having considered it at length.

And, after all, how can one even begin to fathom what is going on in the minds of the majority of people, who seem to know little, care less and be as fickle as a light breeze.

It is certainly beyond me!

[lagniappe]

27. People will not blame Kerry for this anymore than they will blame

Bush for the Swift Boat ads. Furthermore, expect Kerry to be savagely attacked all the way up to the election. My guess is that the Swift Boat ads were just for warm up. I fully expect them to accuse Kerry of treason for round 2.

I don't think sitting back and allowing the GOP to absolutely hammer Kerry for the next 60 days is going to win the election. Kerry needs to hit back and hit hard. Hopefully AWOL2 is just the first of many counter-attacks.

The Republicans have been using these tactics for the last 20 years with great success. Why do you think that suddenly this approach will not work for the Democrats?

[Renew Deal]

30. Mathews blamed Kerry.

They said the campaign organized this. I don't know if that's true.

[troublemaker]

44. Matthews is a useful Reagan Democrat indicator

He's voting for Kerry by default on principle (Iraq) and he hate's Kerry for not being "good enough" to deserve Matthews' vote. He's an extreme example of the vain hypothetical person Kerry has to win over in the debates.

[swag]

28. Persuasion is achieved through many means

Unfortunately our elections are not about people rationally weighing choices, rather they are about people succumbing to base persuasive techniques.

[henslee]

33. That's because you are erudite, informed and sophisticated.... and seek

more intelligent discussions. I can assure you, in the wake of swiftboat lies, an impending draft, guard call ups and a questionable war, we will get much mileage out of this.

I agree, it is definitely not the high road. But we didn't make these rules.

[AnnInLa]

34. You are missing a major point here!

The Swift Boat crap was only a part of what has become the modus operandi of Karl Rove and the bush family. They did it to McCain, they did it to Cleland, and some of the same bunch did it to Dukakis. This kind of reckless character assination for political purposes will ONLY CONTUNUE AND GET WORSE UNLESS SOMEONE CALLS THEM ON IT AND FIGHTS BACK. No matter what result we get in this important election, how can we allow them to continue to tear down the Democratic Party like this. We know their aim is to make the Dem Party obsolete in this country, by any method they can. We must fight fire with fire, or we liberals will truly have to go "underground!"

[henslee]

35. Excellent "big picture" post. Let them know the knife cuts both ways.

[troublemaker]

40. re: "No matter what result we get in this important election"

I would really rather just win this one. (We will have plenty of time in the concentration camps to plan our long-term strategy)

[zulchzulu]

37. Welcome to Returning Fire to the Ghost of Atwater: AWOL Blowback

Chimpy asked for it.

We have the boot about to go down on his cowardly neck and we will release it WHEN we want.

[lanparty]

38. It's whats under the surface that counts ...

Oh .... we are SOOOO CLOSE!!!!

The real question is WHY Bush couldn't complete his service. WHY didn't he show up for a flight physical.

Then we move on to WHY Bush refuses to deny that he used Cocaine before 1974. And WHY did both George AND Laura have their drivers license #'s changed. What happened to the previous record??? Why was Bush doing a stint with operation PULL in Houston while he could have been drilling with his TANG unit in HOUSTON??????????

The answer is easy. Bush got busted for coke, he got a plea bargain that included his PULL service. The record was expunged and the drivers license # was changed to conceal the expunged record.

The story is popped on Laura. Her record drivers licene # was changed because she killed her ex boyfried with her car. Unfortunately, the media doesn't seem fit to ask Laura why she mowed down her ex-boyfriend. Nor do they see fit to ask the president if vehicular manslaughter warrants a death sentence.

[troublemaker]

42. ding ding ding** YES, it's coke, not service

The coke story is major. The AWOL2 story is worthless (politically) except as an adjunct to that story. The documents about the physical may be useful in days to come as part of the atmosphere around the coke story.

But the whole Barnes thing is useless, and the question of whether Bush completed drills is useless. (politically) And the Texans for Truth ad is an absolute embarrassment. (politically)

[lanparty]

58. Well, the failure to complete service does have some play ...

It shows that Bush shirked his military duty. It also works in conjunction with him posing with medals that he didn't earn and making false claims about Air Force service during previous campaigns.

And of course, he's lied about his guard duty all along. The Bush campaign likes to surround Bush with the aura of a "straight shooter". He is anything but. And catching Bush in an overt lie (as opposed to broken promises) has been pretty tough.

The guard story DOES show that Bush lied about protecting our nation. It shows that he took millions of dollars of training from Uncle Sam and then skipped out on his end of the bargain. On a side note, the 25/100 pilot aptitude score also shows ineptitude and further breaks down the facade of Bush as a "macho man".

Finally, reporters are now trying to get access to the champaign unit's attendance records. We could find out that even when Bush was showing up, he might not have been showing up as often as he should have.

This is what is keeping the story alive. But your right in that Cocaine is the real H-Bomb that the Busheviks are trying to keep buried.

[Gregorian]

41. I think it's relevant in that he somehow obtained

an "honorable discharge". Tonight the Canadian Broadcast newscast pretty much stopped their coverage at that. And it is Bush's method of operation to be slippery and sneaky. It's no wonder we missed this on the first time around, in 2000. Well, now we know he was missing. So how the hell did he get an honorable discharge? To my tiny brain, that is a big leap. To go from AWOL (which is what this sounds like), to honorable discharge must have taken something that some people call greasing of palms. But I call it a crime. And that's what this man has been doing ever since, right up to today. I don't like digging up the past. But sometimes it's all we have. I'd take any bit of information, if it would get this man out of power. We only have 60 days.

[DistressedAmerican]

45. Who's The Freaking Flip-Flopper Around Here?

Glad to see the worm starting to turn on the military service issue. I wish Kerry didn't leave all of the punching to folks like us. Pick a glaring failing and point it out guy!

Just a thought on the typical Bush line about Kerry:


Find hundreds more images at Distressed American Protest Art:
http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/main.htm

[DistressedAmerican]

46. The Real Freaking Flip-Flopper

Glad to see the worm starting to turn on the military service issue. I wish Kerry didn't leave all of the punching to folks like us. Pick a glaring failing and point it out guy!

Just a thought on the typical Bush line about Kerry:


Find hundreds more images at Distressed American Protest Art:
http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/main.htm

[WI_DEM]

48. actually this has more truth and facts than the swift boat lies

and since they began the process of scrutinizing Kerry's military record--I guess that Bush's is fair game. I'll say this, I don't think that Kitty Kelley's book will be a big factor--people will dismiss it as gossip given her reputation, but this story rings true.

[AuntPatsy]

50. Don't agree, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire...

[KharmaTrain]

51. Jury Nullification

I'm tired of reliving 1971-73 all over again...it was enough of a pain the first time, and to have to visit it through the distorted, revisionist prism of the Repugnican party made it far more painful.

It was madenning when fact after fact about the slimeboat liars came to the fore and the media still gave these liars and political hacks credibility. No matter how debunked, these slimers still kept coming. Look how many people, just on face value, gave this story validity that almost destroyed Kerry's credibility.

Now the shoe's on the other foot. Again, the facts are on our side. There's virtually no way a reasonable person can't construe that Bunnypants shirked his military obligations at a time when others were going and dying...and he did it with total arrogance and knowing exactly what he was doing. Disertion is the word...not AWOL. You know that if the chips were down and his services were really needed to fly missions in Nam, he'd find yet another way and pull more strings to save his bacon. It's proven, it's fact, now let's see how this story plays on all those who swallowed the Kerry stuff.

Remember, this election for many is based on who is the more responsible leader. How many can seriously defend someone who now is proven to cut tail and run when it was his turn...and then connect this with the bambi in the headlight 7 minutes on 9/11 and if this doesn't paint a total portrait of a boy way over his head, nothing does.

The best to come is a total evaulation of this boy's past...long overdue...and a good heaping doseage of reality check and payback for all the people he's trashed and lives and careers ruined. The boy is humiliated into responding to the charges and his credibility is shreaded. At worst, people will say enough...avoid this issue as a qualification as leadership and focus on others, such as the economy or health care...issues that play into Kerry's strengths.

These assholes had no qualms in dragging Kerry & the rest of us through weeks of crap with their lies and distortions, don't mind if some of us...many, many of us...gloat as the kharma train goes rolling through the BFEE.

Cheers!

[Leilani]

52. It would have been more effective earlier...

Now to some it looks like tit for tat...

People don t know the Boston Globe has been working on this story for years, or that AP had to go to court to get this info.

Also, journalists are having Vietnam fatigue.

Would have been better before the Swiftboat story.

[shivaji]

53. You are right! The reason this story won't stick to teflon Bush* cuz

he never mentioned or made his air national guard service an issue. Whereas Kerry used his Viet-Nam service 24/7 during the nomination campaign to defeat non-military people Dean, Edwards, Sharpton, Gep etc.
The only person to compete with him was gen Clark, but he was a political neophyte and Kerry disposed him off when Clark walked into that General vs. Lieutenent flap.

[GaryL]

57. Sorry

This puppy's got legs because his majesty lied. And using the "honorable discharge" excuse continues to give it life. The chimp needs to come clean. Check out the mini-thesis report on the NY Times sight on this subject. It says essentially the same thing.

[liveoaktx]

62. And seeing the PDFs from Killian's file is damning

[eleny]

56. He was a substance abuser when he was in the TANG

His family got him out of the way to Alabama because he was a problem to Poppy's career. So he was flying military jets at a period when he was out of control - and it's bad to talk about all this?

We spent a million bucks to train his sorry, drunken ass. And when he goes AWOL it's bad for us to talk about it?

Puh-Leeze! Kerry isn't going to get the black eye. Bush owns this one lock stock and whiskey barrel.

[TacticalPeek]

59. Kick n/t

[autorank]

60. He's getting what he asked for. That'w how people will see it. n/t

[rullery]

61. Bush was given an "honorable" discharge from TANG,

NOT from the U.S. Air Force. It was the same politically motivated officers in TANG who conveniently overlooked Bush' lapses of service who arranged for him to get his "honorable" discharge. Therefore the fact that Bush somehow managed to get his paperwork cleaned up should not carry the same weight that we would give to an honorable discharge from the U.S. military services.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

64. Context: Kerry was just smeared by SBVT and their lies

worse yet, the Bush campaign was directly involved with them!
Bush is now returned the favor, and the charges against Bush, unlike the swift vet lies are solidly based in the truth.

BTW: You here to make trouble?