I need the genius DUers to help me with a hypothetical situation! :)

[msallied]

I'm in the midst of writing a fictional political drama and I would like to pose a hypothesis to you all to see what your takes on such a situation would be, because I think it's a topic we haven't quite entertained in real life (and I hope we never do).

What if a sitting President was found to be suffering from a case of bipolar disorder that had for whatever reason been hidden from the public? And what if that President had gone off his meds and started acting very erratically?

First of all, do you think such a thing is possible, and second of all, what do you think the public response would be and do you think that this President would be forced in some way to step down?

Anyway, healthy discussion helps to jog my imagination, and I love the analytical skills that so many of you have.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. I think this actually happened already...Richard Nixon. He was convinced to resign.

[msallied]

3. Really? I know that wasn't the "official" story, but knowing what I do about NIxon it makes sense.

[BrklynLiberal]

18. If I remember correctly, it was Kissinger who was designated to talk to him..

and convince him that he was going to be impeached if he didn't resign.

[BrklynLiberal]

21. Here is a very long and detailed description of the Nixon White House

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/82may/hershwh1.htm

[WheelWalker]

31. Gezactly. n/t

[Every Man A King]

2. If McSame wins we might find out n/t

[kickysnana]

4. Evidently not. They stole another election for him n/t

[msallied]

I wouldn't classify Bush as having bipolar, though.

Of course, I wouldn't put clinical depression past him, especially now.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. Look into the procedures for the cabinet deposing a mentally ill president

The VP and a majority (I think) of the cabinet can declare the president mentally disabled.

That's a very dramatic scenario.

If the VP wouldn't act, then you have public opinion and congress.

[msallied]

8. Ah, I'm now recalling a season of 24 when something like that happened.

I might have to amend my storyline to accommodate something like this. In my story, this President is very near the end of his first term. I'm thinking I will probably just not have him seek re-election.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

6. See: Reagan.

Replace "bi-polar" with "Alzheimer's."



Eta: It didn't even muss the American's hair out of place. Even though the signs were evident in the 1984 debates. That's where we are.

[Breeze54]

7. Reagan had Alzheimers and bush is a dry drunk. What would happen?

We'd invade an innocent country and blow the place up and Americans would tell the people who loudly opposed it to sit down and shut up and stop whining!!! They'd say; "The president does not have a brain disorder! He's just tired!" Or they'd say; "The President quit drinking 7 years ago. You know he's found religion! What a good guy he is!"
Then they'd question your audacity in even questioning the President's sanity, with a few swear words thrown in including traitor and unpatriotic.

[msallied]

10. So what you're saying is I should allow my art to imitate life? LOL!

[Occam Bandage]

9. It is certainly possible, though unlikely.

After all, such a President would also be surrounded by many, many people closely watching him, and who would each have great personal incentive to ensure that the President remained properly medicated.

Secondly, if it were released, there would be a public outcry. If the President refuses to step down, well, I'll let the 25th Amendment do the talking.

4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

If the VP refused to do anything about it, we'd probably be headed for a Constitutional crisis.

[msallied]

12. Okay, this is very helpful! Can I run this rough scenario by you then?

President has a mental breakdown, and VP takes over. VP is a corrupt Cheney-esque figure who is being investigated for several ethics violations and may be up for impeachment. He soon resigns. Would then the Speaker of the House assume the Presidency at this point? Considering it is almost Election season, this is pretty much like a Gerald Ford scenario, correct?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. It would take a lot for him to resign

In an election year it would be hard to impeach.

Also, congress would have to act on the president being disabled thing... that decision is reviewable.

But if there was no VP in place, yes, the speaker would take the job.

If the VP resigned, the pres was declared disabled, and congress hadn't acted on the disability declaration yet the speaker it would be a mess.

It's tricky because the president isn't removed from office. I don't think the acting pres could name a new VP, because he'd still be the VP acting as pres. I think the sick guy remtains the title pres until congress removes him.

[msallied]

17. I could roll this back and make it NOT an election year.

Make it more of a Nixonian scenario, where the President wins re-election, in spite of increasingly bizarre behavior (we've seen what this is like, with McCain's antics on the campaign trail). He is soon forced to resign because of this. Say he makes a MAJOR public blunder (I already have him doing as much) and the VP assumes power. But he's no better. He's actually a crackpot. Election season approaches and he's being challenged from within his own party (this is actually where my story would begin... right now, I'm filling in backstory).

[Hippo_Tron]

14. The problem is that it's a political disaster to remove the sitting President

If the President has to be removed by his own Cabinet it makes the President's party look weak no matter how capable the VP is. The people surrounding the President have an incentive to stay in power and that may just mean keeping the President where he is even if it's bad for the country.

[NYC Liberal]

36. Try this one on for size:

President is incapacitated. Say, in a coma. Normally you'd have the 25th Amendment and the Vice President and the cabinet declare him disabled. Here's the wrinkle:

VP has died not too long before and no replacement has been nominated or confirmed by Congress. I do not see any way in the Constitution to get around the fact that you must have a VP to sign onto a declaration of disability with the cabinet.

[Hippo_Tron]

11. With regard to concealing an illness, watch The West Wing if you haven't

Particularly Seasons 1-4. If you have limited time, watch the first half of Season 3. Those episodes come shortly after the President admits to the country that he has Multiple Sclerorsis and has concealed it and simultaneously decides to run for re-election. The first half of season 3 shows the White House trying to weather the legal and political fallout of this. It is particularly interesting to watch how Congress and the Special Prosecutor try to find evidence of a conspiracy to conceal the President's condition.

[msallied]

13. I may actually do that!

I have to admit I haven't watched nearly as much political drama as I should have to make writing this thing a whole lot easier. lol

[Hippo_Tron]

16. The best art is either inspired by other art or real life

The West Wing story lines are largely inspired by real life scenarios. President Bartlet's concealed illness is largely based on President Kennedy's concealed illness. The fact that it became public and the scandal that followed is based on the Lewinsky scandal. Kennedy lived in an era where the President's sexual affairs and health status were private. Bartlet (and Clinton) live in an era where nothing about the President's personal life is private.

So watching political dramas is definitely a good way to draw inspiration. But researching former Presidents and their time in office is definitely a good idea as well.

[msallied]

19. Yes, you are right.

I have gleaned a lot from prior Presidents and was mostly using the Nixon situation as a template, but you bring up an excellent point about Kennedy.

[demwing]

20. It's All In the 25th Ammendment, Section #4

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

[demwing]

23. Here's a twist -

The nominee realizes that his ill-planned VP pick is an extreme ego-maniac and religious zealot, and is plotting to use the 4th Section of the 25th Ammendment to supplant her mentor as mentally incapacitated, should they win the election.

The nominee is an honorable war hero, but knows he is on the verge of senile dementia, and can't tolerate the preceived shame of his mental health challenges, so he throws the election by carrying out the worst possible presidential campaign in history, just to save the country from his VP. He subconsciously proclaims his plight by taking "Country First" as his campaign slogan, which confuses everyone, as it is unclear to all as to how the man's outward actions are anything short of compulsive and self centered. Only the nominee understands the sacrifice he has made, and only he understands how bittersweet the slogan has become.

NAAAH!

[BrklynLiberal]

25. nahhh. No one would ever believe that!!!

---I think you are absolutely right!!-----

[msallied]

26. My god... when you put it that way, McFailin is REALLY terrifying.

And for the record, I agree completely with you.

[WheelWalker]

32. I like it! Moose under the campaign bus....what an imagination you have!

[demwing]

33. You know, when I wrote that post, I was just leting it flow...

but when I go back and read it again, it scares the crap out of me, because I'm afraid I might have stumbled on a little truth. GULP!

[LiberalHeart]

22. I wouldn't overplay it. If he's having episodes, I'd...

...have them be something insiders notice, but not the public. Otherwise, you'd have the public doing the job for whomever has to talk to him or handle the situation. For real drama, it should be tightly contained but with the threat it could turn into something horrible. Bi-polars come in many flavors and to be elected prez he'd have to be pretty high functioning -- but many bi-polars have their condition aggravated by specific life-changing events. Death of a loved one, for example. Say the first lady dies. If she'd been his rock, the person who covered for him, kept him on a fairly even keel, the loss of her could trigger a devastating depression, and that in turn could go manic. He could even be a rapid cycler, completely unpredictable. The depressive side would be interesting to deal with in the confines of the WH. Suppose he doesn't want to get out of bed, can't be pried out of the residence to go to meetings, make appearances, etc. The media would be all over that, speculating.

Someone to look at: Abe Lincoln, who was likely bi-polar -- with the emphasis on the depressive side of the illness.

[msallied]

28. Excellent points all around! And I agree that keeping it contained within the confines

of the administration is definitely the way to go here. Thank you so much! I love brainstorming this way.

[BamaTideFan83]

24. Mental Illness and HIPAA

I think you should be a bit more sympathetic to those with mental illnesses. Over medicating or under medicating is a very difficult thing to judge, especially if the patient is making the judgments himself.

There are also medical privacy issues. All you have to do is mention they have any condition at all, and you've broken HIPAA laws. And that issue has been and will continue to be important to Democrats.

We have had several Democratic presidents with serious medical issues. Just because they were being treated, does NOT mean they were unfit to serve.

I think you are treading on shaky ground with this story line. Unless you want to make a Republican the villain that outs a Democratic president. Ha. Ha.

[msallied]

27. I think that's why I'm going to keep this contained.

The storyline is from the point of view of this President's chief adviser. It's not my intention to insult people with mental illness.

[Motown_Johnny]

29. His wife and her astrologers would call the shots while he watched old movies he stared in

[political_Dem]

30. That situation would have a lot of intrigue--especially with the line of succession.

If the V-Pres. and Sec. of State in your story are nefarious people with devious plans on their own, they would use the President's bi-polar depression to their advantage. That alone adds intrigue because the President's hold on power changes into a very intricate chess match in which someone is bound to be check-mated.

But knowing how intrusive the Press is during the present day, something like this would leak out into the public--unless you are setting your story during the time of FDR or Kennedy. Back then, the fourth estate kept a lot of secrets.

Today it is rather a "live by the press/die by the press" sort of situation. If the President is beloved, his situation would stir sympathy from the MSM as well as the public. But if he poses a threat to the government, other people in power as well as the citizenry, then there will always be ways to get him out of office despite public outcry. I mean, the entire Bush Administration holds a clue of what they do to people they are displeased with.


I hope that helps. :) Good luck.

[H2O Man]

34. Interesting.

Two US Presidents suffered from break-downs of sorts, in modern times.

The first was LBJ. A good source for information on how his closest advisers reacted can be found in Schlesinger's biography of Robert Kennedy.

The second was Nixon. There are several good sources. He had actually been treated by a psychiatrist earlier in his career, though it had been kept quiet.

In both cases, they suffered from combinations of depression, paranoia, exhaustion, and added alcohol to the mix. Both became detached from reality. Both scared the heck out of those around them, and lacked the stability needed for the job for periods of time.

[depakid]

35. You might want to research the nature of bipolar disorders

and the people who've had them.

You might find that they're more common among American leaders than you think:

The Hypomanic Edge: The Link Between (A Little) Craziness and (A Lot of) Success in America

http://www.amazon.com/Hypomanic-Edge-Between-Craziness-Success/dp/0743243447

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/10/books/chapters/0410-1st-gartn.html

For instance, the aughor lays out a pretty convincing case that Alexander Hamilton had bipolar II and discusses a number of other leaders (not all political).

On the other side of the pond, Winston Churchill is known to have had numerous bouts of depression, but the current research suggests that his symptoms (as well as his notorious self medication) are consistent with the bipolar spectrum.

[msallied]

38. You make an interesting point. I do wonder if bipolar is the disorder I want to use in this instance

Based specifically on the issues you mention. I know a lot of people with bipolar are very high functioning individuals. But I think that there is such a taboo on the topic of mental illness in this country, even still. And the way Presidents are ultra-scrutinized for even the slightest "defect" these days would probably mean that a bipolar President today would have a MUCH harder time of things than a bipolar President of, say, the WWII era. The irony being, of course, that we know far more about these disorders now than we did then.

[mtnester]

37. Here is a thought

I wonder, and it is truly a "how will this work" thing, when the medicated masses get into the WH. The ones who have been on Ritalin ar Adderal for decades and struggle with rage issues; the ones who have been on valium or Xanax or Wellbutrin since their docs and parents determined simple teenage angst was something to medicate because it is easier to deal with them than actually work through normal teenage BS.

I do not think anyone has studies on the long term use of these type of meds, but it is something I am curious about.