**** Kick and Rec if you think voting shouldn't require anything electronic ***

[Roland99]

Or, at the least, only use optical scanning (like the fill-in-the-circle tests we all took in school).


I prefer paper ballots!

[Hutzpa]

1. Get rid of em'

the lot of em' I say.

No good for Democracy.



:dem:



:kick: :kick:



:dem:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

2. Other industrialized nations manage with paper ballots so can we. nt

[ogneopasno]

3. Kick for optical-scanned paper ballots!

If we can standardize tests across state lines, we can standardize voting!

[Roland99]

8. Hear! Hear!

[justiceischeap]

34. Another vote for Optical Scanning... if the SAT's are safe... (eom)

[Allyoop]

36. Not hand counted

I'm for optical scanning also (without electronic transfer to the BOE). Hand counting all the races that appear on the ballots would take forever. Then you have to wonder about the accuracy and honesty of the people doing the counting, especially if the poll workers were the ones that had to count. I'm chief judge at our precinct and we're absolutely good for nothing after the polls close. Deliver the stuff to BOE, go home, have a good stiff hot toddy!

[RC]

148. Not true. Other countries can hand count 10's of millions of paper ballots in a day or so.

Canada used to do it every election till they got sold the same corrupt, vote flipping touch screen voting machine as we use.
And so what if you have to wait a few days to verify the winner. Accuracy needs to trump speed every time. You can wait a few days to collect your bets.

[NikolaC]

179. Uhm, No They Don't

Canada is a perfect example. They hand count their ballots and the results are in that evening. To me, that is a much better system when you consider what can happen in a major race that is being contested because of a "thin margin" of victory, or votes thrown out, etc. That could last for days. Paper is the better option for now IMO.

Edited to add: Which part of Canada uses touch screen machines? My inlaws voted via paper ballots and so did my husband.

[LiberalLovinLug]

194. It's all relative, eh

We have one tenth the votes to count, but we also have one tenth the population as the US. So I don't see why y'all couldn't find enough people that wanted to work the one day for a bit of extra cash. I did it one year. All of our votes are hand counted that evening. The honesty and accuracy part is handled by having a rep from each party at each voting place overseeing the counting. If there is one that is disputed by one of the parties, it is put in the 'provisional' pile.

And I have NEVER voted on a machine, and I hope I never will.

[thoughtcrime1984]

41. That's what my ward does.

Along with Wisconsin's same day registration, I think we have voting nirvana up here.

[ogneopasno]

44. I'm with you -- we have it in my precinct in Northeastern Minnesota (and I think the state)

And our voting rules are very generous. Which leads to the highest turnout in the nation. WOOT!

[Mme. Defarge]

81. With random handcounts to validate.

I don't think we want to wait days for the results.

[crickets]

111. Excellent. Yes, this. -nt

[RC]

149. You have to wait many months after campaigning starts to vote. What a few more days for the results?

[bagrman]

169. Vote by Mail vote by mail, then count them by hand,

[Hope And Change]

4. K & R!

[ipfilter]

5. There are some things better left to paper.

Just because you can create an electronic form of voting doesn't mean you should.

[KathieG]

6. The machines need to be destroyed!

[Occam Bandage]

7. I'm good with optical scanning.

[Overseas]

9. K&R -- optical scans at most, as long as there are random audits

double checking reported results from the optical scans with the paper ballot tallies.

Yes please also independent exit polling such as that used to judge other countries' elections. Info continuously available and NOT ADJUSTED TO SUIT VOTE TOTALS as was done in election 2004.


www.stealingamericathemovie.org

Documentary is now available for free download if you haven't seen any in depth study of election fraud. It is really good. Lots of TV footage from election nights along with charts and graphs and historical data for comparison.

[Triana]

10. K & R for optical scanned paper ballots. n/t

[WillyT]

11. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Fly by night]

12. ******* n/t

[jfkraus]

13. I write code for living....

...and computer voting machines are too easy to manipulate and hack. One could easily write code that switches votes counts and is undetectable. It's like giving the machine a virus that comes alive for a certain period of time then cleans itself up. For me to have any confidence in computer voting machines, the following would have to exist...

1. The original source code would have to be audited by multiple independent groups.
2. There would have to be strict chain-of-custody documentation for the software and the machines themselves.
3. There would have to be pre, during and post voting machine test samplings.

And even then I'd probably still vote absentee.

[Essene]

57. which is why ATMs are being hacked every day and we lose trillions a year?

this can be handled securely if we put our minds to it.

[jfkraus]

59. ATM code IS audited...extensively

Computer voting machine code is proprietary and not audited by anyone except the maker. God and the GOP knows why.

[Essene]

80. exactly.

we need very high standards, regardless of the price and maintenance costs.

i think there oughta be very clear on-screen confirmations, instant paper receipts given to voters (no identifier tho) and very well protected internal paper receipts as well.

and there oughta be some means for avoiding any of this "calibration" nonsense. if machines need constant "calibration" then they dont belong in elections as far as i am concerned.

and if a machine has a problem, it should be sent to auditors... not "reset" and used again.

[SavageDem]

82. Hey, that's what *I* said!

Former code-monkey here, too. I would add to your list in that we need the source code to be open-source. There's absolutely no reason for code for voting machines not to be transparent. And I agree 267% with you on the need to have multiple independent groups verify the software, just as we do with hand-counting ballots (one Dem, one Repub).

Voting machine software is relatively simple, compared to much biz software. There's no need for this to be hard!

[blossomstar]

14. Paper ballots are the only way to go.

[Kitty Herder]

15. K&R

[helderheid]

16. RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINES! K&R

[lame54]

60. I used them in this ad I made for paper ballots...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxF4y9tSG08

[mcg]

17. Anything electronic should only be a double-check of hand-counted votes. nt

[mcg]

22. "To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer."

“To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.”
(Paul Ehrlich)

“The trouble with programmers is that you can never tell what a programmer is doing until it’s too late.”
(Seymour Cray)

“There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third one works.”
(Alan J. Perlis)

101 Great Computer Programming Quotes
http://www.devtopics.com/101-great-computer-programming-quotes/
(some I don't agree with)

[nichomachus]

18. Paper ballots are subject to fraud too

But I agree that the machines are problematic.

One thing that must be done, if they're going to keep machines, is that the programming code for the machines needs to be available for public inspection. In fact, it should be posted on the Internet for computer scientists to study.

And ballots should be standardized across the country. The ballot used in our county is so difficult and finicky -- use this, don't use that, draw a line this way, don't draw it more than once, fold the ballot a certain way. It just invites invalidated ballots.

[RC]

152. So what if the machines use Open Source code? It's what the machine is actually programed with

that needs to be a concern to us. Paper receipts, log files and all the other ideas people come up with to make sure their votes are counted when electronics are used, can be faked, forged, manipulated, changed...

Paper ballots are the hardest to manipulate because each and every ballot needs to be touched, which takes time. With electronics, the results can be rigged in an instant.

We need to go back to paper and ball point pen.

[Sinti]

19. Hand Counted Paper Ballots + National Holiday = Proper Election

I really think the optical scanners should only be used to verify hand counts, if at all. I could hack an optical scanning machine with ease.

[mcg]

23. and there could be vote counting duty if need be, we have jury duty afterall. nt

[greenmutha]

20. VVPB!

Voter Verified Paper Ballots!

NGU!!!!!

(Never Give Up!)

[canadianbeaver]

21. Little Golf Pencils and Paper ballots used here......

the poll workers have booklets of 100 ballots....and very easy to calculate how many people have voted by counting the ballot booklets as well as counting all the individual ballots in the box after you put them in for your vote.....kind of a double check with the booklets...

5 minutes to vote at the local school for our last election....I feel for all of those that must wait in line for hours upon hours to vote...unbelievable.....there is something very wrong with the way that works out every time there is an election down south...

Get rid of the electronic voting system.....unreliable democracy

[mcg]

25. The voting machines are one voter at a time, paper balloting is not,

there is one paper ballot per voter. With paper balloting, you just need a chair and a writing surface, much cheaper to provide than a machine. The chairs are one voter at a time, but much cheaper.

I never really thought about this before, the voting machines look like a big factor on why people have to wait so long in line to vote.

[Roland99]

26. Harder to suppress the vote in minority areas by saying $50 voting booths can't be had.

Multi-thousands of dollars computer equipment? Yeah...easier to suppress a vote.

[FloridaGrl]

24. K&R

[truckin]

27. K&R

[yowzayowzayowza]

28. Paper ballots *and* democratize the machines!!!

End the monopoly on state and vendor mechanized counting jus like our money. Standardize the ballot layout to facilitate standardized OCR reading equipment so WE THE PEOPLE are on the same footing as the state.

[kster]

29. Get rid of all the electronic ballot smuggling machines

hand count the ballots before they get smuggled out of your polling place and out of your sight...... heres how........

Transparent Ballot Box, for 500 - 800 Paper Ballots, with Deposit Trap and Counter
Easy to use, sturdy and stackable. Lockable with two individual locks. Deposit trap is operated using a lever which is coupled with the counter. Can be safely stored in the reusable protective box.



K&R

[City Lights]

30. K&R

[Froward69]

31. God help us... but mow down all forrests

to produce a ballot paper trail...


on edit, trees will grow back..

[RC]

153. Save the trees! Use Hemp paper for our ballots.

[WyLoochka]

32. Op-Scans can be flipped too

Hand counted paper ballots - ONLY

[immoderate]

33. I could live with op-scans if there's an audit.

They could spot check some batches of ballots. Although I've heard of piles of ballots giving different results when re-fed through the machines.

--IMM

[Roland99]

35. And an even split of poltical parties observing.

[Laelth]

37. Mandatory, paper, hand-counted ballots for all Federal Elections by 2010!

The Canadians do it that way, and it works out fine.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[riqster]

38. Damn straight!

[pleah]

39. K&R I have been saying for a long time that we should return to

PEN AND PAPER!

[kath]

40. Paper ballots, hand counted AT THE PRECINCT, with plenty of observers from all parties.

Like in Canada.

With optical scanners, the software in the central tabulator can easily be corrupted to flip votes.

[OmahaBlueDog]

42. I like the electronics, but it should print a paper ballot.

The ballot can have a bar code, for easy reading, but should show every selection made by the voter clearly.

[GrantDem]

43. K & R

[Darkhawk32]

45. I say paper ballots counted by elementary school children. ;) n/t

[ecstatic]

46. But then we're at the mercy of counters. Either way, we could

be screwed!

[Alameda]

47. How about stakes in the ground?

they can be carved on the top for whoever or whatever they are.

Everyone comes by and marks their choice.....

[SalviaBlue]

48. kandr

[colsohlibgal]

49. Trash Them All!!!

I think they ought to have a bunch of sites linked up by satellite as citizens are handed baseball bats to smash them to bits ala "Office Space" at all these places.

Then do it all by paper ballot and have it publicly counted as monitors from both parties watch and it's all recorded.

[fascisthunter]

50. No To Privatization of Vote Counting

I agree with not using electronic means to count because electronic means, while I also believe we should never allow a private company to count our votes.

[annabanana]

88. And THAT, my dear, is the very nut, kernel and heart of the problem

with the machines. Private companies have NO PLACE in this.

[Twinguard]

51. k 'n r

[jennied]

52. As much as I love electronics, computers, and everything..

Let's roll old school and kick these fucking electronic ballots out.

[rucky]

53. Kick & Rec if you like ice cream!

[Essene]

54. i entirely disagree and thinka luddite approach is less secure

the problem is having insecure machines and not having paper trails to match.

voting should be like banking. you confirm the vote and get a receipt. there should be a matching internal print receipt too.

[Stevepol]

55. In the drink with em.

[cornflake_31]

56. K&R!

Agree totally

[Sodan]

58. K&R

[amber_86]

61. Paper ballots here

[cliffordu]

62. YES!!!

[The Wielding Truth]

63. Paper ballots, and just like jurors citizens brought in to count.

[AldebTX]

64. Amen

[yellerpup]

65. No unverified voting.

No voting that can't be manually recounted. :dem:

[grannylib]

66. Electronic voting machines HAVE to go. The touch screens should

NOT be that unreliable.
When I use the touch screens in the fast lane at the grocery store, my bananas are NEVER flipped to beans; my pears are NEVER counted as pomegranates..."recalibration" my ASS.

[Roland99]

69. Excellent point (and excellent pumpkin!)

[grannylib]

74. Thank you! It's my Hope 'o' Lantern

:hi:

[AikidoSoul]

67. Paper... and only paper

Nothing else will do.

Unless it's wood, cloth, metal.... you know -- something you can touch. Not frickin' electrons.....

[Pacifist Patriot]

68. I would support opti-scan if and only if...

1) tabulator software is open for audit

2) security of transmission from precinct to SOE office is made a high priority

3) random stastically valid hand count audits

Otherwise, I have no problem not knowing who the winner is for a number of weeks.

[diva77]

103. Audits are easy to rig. They were done improperly in LA County for years - the

RoV would set a time to "choose" random precincts for the 1% manual tally and be slippery about notifying citizens as to when that was going to occur - it turns out that precincts were NOT being chosen randomly. And, unless a citizen demands to witness the choosing, the RoV could easily revert to nonrandom selection. Also, having sorted ballots at the precinct, there is plenty of time to do all of the tabulating by hand at the precinct level when the polls close. If you were to audit instead, that means either letting the ballots be subjected to insecure transportation to the RoVs HQ, or selecting a few ballots at the precinct to audit, and it's easy to pull ones that favor whomever you want to favor. We oughta count EVERY ballot by hand.

[DrZeeLit]

70. Voted today in Vermont. PAPER BALLOT. Quiet time. My husband and I walked into the clerk's office

and they handed us ballots and pens.

We got to sit in the empty City Council chamber.
We talked over each issue and candidate.
We don't always agree on issues -- my husband is much more frugal than I am.

BUT...

What I LOVE about Vermont is... (at least in our area) the paper ballot.
And the kindness. And the way everyone is "political" AND civil.
And no I.D. necessary.

The first time I voted in Vermont, I handed my ballot to a little ol' lady who stuffed it (really) into the small slot of a tall wooden box. She pushed it down with a yard stick. And... they had a bake sale going on as we stood in line.

Gotta Love Vermont!

[BlooInBloo]

71. How did those hanging chads work for us?

[BrklynLiberal]

72. Rec #100!!!!!

[qanda]

73. We need a paper trail

[RC]

154. You have that with hand counted paper ballots.

[Plucketeer]

75. Kay & Arrrgggghhh!

PAPER and PENCIL. What IS wrong with that???

[goodboy]

76. Voter-Verified Paper Ballot (nt)

[harun]

77. As someone who has been an IT pro for over 10 years I think we

can certainly use something electronic but you HAVE TO HAVE A PAPER result. Like an ATM gives you a slip. So one could vote on an electronic machine it could spit out a paper atm type receipt then they could put that in a slot or something. A bunch of ways to do it but no IT pro is going to tell you no paper trail is a good idea. We know how much this stuff breaks :-).

[depakid]

78. As a matter of practicality, American ballots have too many entries to count solely by hand

Optical scanners, with paper ballots randomly audited with transparency is the most efficient, trustworthy system that states have to choose from.

See, e.g.

Oregon will hand-count some ballots

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2008/10/oregon_will_handcount_some_bal.html

[sarah FAILIN]

79. we have the optical scans, love it

I finish connecting the 2 parts of a bar right by the name, no circles to fill in. Never had a problem and when I feed it into the ballot holding/counting machine I watch a readout that tells me what number I was at the poll that day. I can not comprehend voting on a butterfly ballot or with a touch screen. It's crazy.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

83. K&R

[kayakjohnny]

84. Go retro.

[Canuckistanian]

85. Canada has never had an electronic voting system

An we just had another flawless, conflict-free election. And the results were ready for the 11:00 EST news shows.

We also had early voting and absentee voting, again, with no problems,

NO purges. NO "challenges". No lawsuits.

The whole American system seems to be to make it as hard as possible for the average citizen to vote.

Which of course, benefits who?

[Zhade]

86. No question.

Canada does it, we can do it too.

[annabanana]

87. BOY HOWDY am I EVER in for "no electronics"!!

I say we dedicate a few days for "Election Festivals". Hand marked paper ballots could be publically hand counted. (Ballots could even be shown on a jumbotron in a stadium.) . TAKING AS LONG AS IT TAKES to get it right.

[petgoat]

89. HEMP ballots for me! nt

[Democrafty]

90. K & R!

[newburgh]

91. One electronic vote for paper ballots!

[understandinglife]

92. to quote myself -- "Not One Line Of Software Between A Voter And A Valid Election."

[grahamhgreen]

197. excellent soundbite.

[crazy_vanilla]

93. kick

[tbyg52]

94. I'm for *something* that can be seen and verified by regular human beings

And bits inside a computer sure ain't that.

[dhpgetsit]

95. No waiting in lines either!

Mail-in ballot!

[JuniperLea]

96. K&R

[rhett o rick]

97. I hate "kich and rec" begging posts. maybe this is an exception. no electriconic voting. nm

[jlacivita]

98. I've been a software engineer for 10 years and I agree

Computers are to easily manipulated by people with special knowledge in ways that are invisible or not apparent to people without the same special knowledge.

Votes need to be "real" on a level that every voter can understand. Ink on a box, or punching a hole through a box, both on a piece of paper are very real, and if any citizen demanded to see his vote, he could do so at any time.

Computers involve abstracting your vote away from reality in multiple ways:

1. putting a very complex and fallible input system (touch screens for example) between you and your vote. These might seem simple and common place (iphone, etc) but its a million times more complex than paper and pen
2. using a system with absolutely no permanence to store your vote
3. using a system with no implicit way to detect tampering. lets face it if paper ballots are tampered with there will be evidence. A computer system gives no such guarantee
4. using a system that runs through special code to tally the results. you need to be a computer expert to audit this, and even if there is a mistake in the tallying, there won't be any humans counting the votes to notice irregularities. It just spits out a number.

[minnesota_liberal]

159. K & R

I've been in IT for more than 20 years and can't believe anyone would trust computers as part of the balloting process.

[trickyguy]

99. Absolutely favor paper ballots. We have them here in Baraboo. Great.

[Sebastian Doyle]

100. With optical scanning, at least there IS a paper ballot to fall back on if neccessary.

But the scanners still feed into a central tabulator. And the scanners are built by Diebold and ES&S, so that's automatically a concern.

[pipi_k]

101. I live in a little rural community in Western Mass and

we use old fashioned paper ballots

In fact, after we mark our ballots, we walk over to a guy who stands in back of this huge WOODEN box with a handle on it

we put our ballot onto the tray, the guy turns the handle, and it gets pulled into the machine

at some point during the night, all the ballots are taken out and counted by real human beings


I realize that this is way too primitive for most big cities, which is unfortunate...although I suppose it could work if we didn't really need/want to know the results for about a week or so, and not immediately.

Anyway, yeah...paper ballots are probably way safer than electronic voting machines

[Razoor]

102. get rid of the machines!!

get rid of them and bring back paper ballots!!

[knixphan]

104. Paper!

[bonito]

105. K&R n/t

[theFrankFactor]

106. K&R

I Do Videos for Change:

Is Obama Really a Cracker Hating, Communist Negro?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPSOemDCqg


An Obama Win Means Republican Hissy Fit. Be Prepared!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3IijWdMEzs


Privatize Profits and Socialize Failure - REPUBLICANISM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWxTQbfsEA8


Obama the Baby Killer -or- When Morons Attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1SrQiHHPAk


Barack Obama - Never In a Beauty Pageant! Can He Lead?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHGu33jtXtc


Frank Weighs in on the Biden v. Palin VP Debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n754FjvGKGQ


Republicans Blame Clinton, N*ggers for Wall Street Failures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAvhWKp0N4M


It Appears Obama is a Terrorist... If You're a Moron!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CunxzR5_8FU

[Danchi]

107. Electronic voting-An abuse waiting to happen

"that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, patriot: That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government patriot: laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. patriot: But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.patriot:
From The Declaration of Independence.

Paper ballots have left a long train of abuses and because of it a Despot has been in office for 8 years so now it's time to throw off the means to allow that abuse to happen again. When Obama is elected there should be an effort by the consent of the governed to rid this country of electronic voting. :

[marauding liberal]

108. What you said.

[trthnd4jstc]

109. Paper Ballots, or Optical Scanners: We need a Paper Trail! n/t

[jimlup]

110. E voting isn't the problem... it is the LACK OF A PAPER TRAIL!!!

But yeah, I'll rec the thread 'cause yeah, that's the idea

[defendandprotect]

112. Also think about the large computers the "press/MSM" relied on going back

to the mid-1960's when they began to come on line ...

this was right after the '63 r-w coup on or government --

Many odd events with the computers breaking down and figures often being

readjusted afterwards.

Re-think Nixon vs Humphrey ... ???

Two reporters in Florida began investigating these odd events at that time --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

113. K&R. I ran across an OP a few years ago...

...which if I remember it correctly, the OP's daughter, I think not yet in high school, had designed a voting apparatus where you just drop the appropriate ballot into a clear plexi-glass box depending on which presidential candidate you were voting for.

Knowing the thickness of the paper card-like ballots you could do a fairly accurate rough count at a glance. It was elegant, simple, inexpensive, and I think exactly the kind of thing we need.

If anyone remembers and saved the link to this OP (I know I didn't give much of a description but that's about all I can remember about it) I would thank you to provide it.

[vanboggie]

114. K&R for paper - I don't trust optical scans

Tabulators are just programmable computers.

[Jack Rabbit]

115. K/R

Democracy is natural and low tech.

[codjh9]

116. COMPLETELY AGREE!

[southerncrone]

117. Sometimes simple is the best way.

What's wrong with paper ballots where you mark an X in ink?
Tangible evidence of a vote. They can be physically counted.

There is no reason we MUST know on election day who "won". Wouldn't we all be better off if we took our time & physically counted & recounted the ballots to be sure, instead of this insane practice of rushing to know the victor within 24 hrs?

Looking back, electronic voting has made our voting process LESS manageable & knowing the outcome has been postponed longer because of it.

Paper ballots.....so easy a caveman can do it!

[orleans]

118. absolutely kicking and recommending! n/t

[ekwhite]

119. K&R for Paper Ballots N/T

[mod mom]

120. HCPB w strict chain of custody!

[salguine]

121. I read a news item this morning that said

that here in Maryland we're finally abandoning the electronic voting disaster experiment ($65 million down the shitter) and going back to the old optical scan paper ballots in time for the 2010 midterm elections. I wish we'd been able to switch in time for this election, but I'll tolerate the delay just to be rid of the fucking things. If we stripped any toxic computer parts out of them and bound up all the machines in the state with wire mesh, they might make a dandy artificial reef for oysters and blue crabs if dropped in the Chesapeake Bay. It could be named Diebold Reef.

[dirktalamasca]

122. Sometimes..

the old fashioned way is the best way.

[SusanaMontana41]

123. k & r

eom

[WA98070]

124. Not even the counting/tabulating. We should have citizens count and compile the votes.

[Tigress DEM]

132. Yeah but who watches the counters? reThugs counting my vote? Shiver.

[Marnieworld]

125. I don't agree

I think that electronic machines can be very helpful and efficient. But that every machine should produce a voter verified paper ballot that can used for a recount if necessary. Also the programming should be open source and verified by a bipartisan process. When machines have voter verified ballots they match exit polls almost 100%. All progress isn't bad. Just the kind without any transparency or verification is.

The machines that read the optical scan ballots can also be programmed to be scanned wrong incidentally but of course the ballot would be the backup that I prefer.

[Oldtimeralso]

126. I don't think we should rely on electronics or electricity for....

elections or music!

[concerned canadian]

127. K and R

Paper ballots, like we do in Canada. Another Canadian (hmm, maybe i'll change my avatar name to that; i didn't

know about concern trolls till after registering) posted a similar theme recently. We vote locally in churches,

high school auditoriums, community centres, and it creates an opportunity for people to meet their

neighbours, literally, and make a few hundred bucks doing your civic duty.

[Nostradammit]

128. how bout they mail you a paper ballot

You bring it in to them after you've filled it out at your leisure, run it through an optical scanner that spits out a paper duplicate, you double check the printed ballot to make sure it's correct and if it is it goes into the ballot box. The scanner provides the preliminary count and the printed one is paper trail.

[elbram]

129. scan tron or paper for me

[Gregorian]

130. Boycott the machines!

It would be so cool to force paper. Everyone just step away from the Rovian machines.

[Tigress DEM]

131. 1 suggestion I thought made sense. Touch screen prints out ballot marked, voter can review in hand..

THEN when voter verifies ballot matches voter can confirm touch screen, but the ballot that is COUNTED is the in hand paper ballot the voter has seen with their own eyes is marked correctly. THAT ballot is put into a secure optical scanner and the running tallies from the scanner and touch screens are compared randomly during the day.

Convienence of touch screen and print out but the ballot rules and if the machine makes a mistake the ballot is put into a special slot that time stamps it and attaches the serial number of the failing machine so that records of voter disenfranchisement by machine is recorded.

AND then there is still a paper ballot without chads that can be kept for recounts if needed.

[Veracious]

133. NO Privatized Electronic Voting

GET RID OF ALL OF IT!

[dmr]

134. Paper ballots! Nothing about those machines should be proprietary to a private entity

Our votes should never, ever be at the mercy of a private, for-profit, partisan business. What did that Diebold execute say about the 04 election and Bush*? Rhetorical question, no need for answers.

Even Oprah had her problem with those machines not registering her presidential vote.

[demigoddess]

135. paper ballots all the time.

at least they can be recounted if necessary

[Granny M]

136. NO MORE VOTING MACHINES, OR COUNTING MACHINES, EITHER!

I'm so sick of this drama, and I hope it's one of the first accomplishments of the Obama administration, and the new Congress.

[stark6935]

137. AND THERE SHOULD BE A NATIONAL REGISTRY

SO YOU CAN CHECK WHETHER YOUR VOTE WAS ACTUALLY COUNTED!!!!!!!!!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

138. K & R

:kick:

[mirrera]

139. Paper ballots hand counted!

[1Hippiechick]

140. Look what happened in 2000, yet here we sit with our thumbs up our a$$e$. Why?

There has been enough documentation by www.blackboxvoting.org that something COULD have already been done, but hasn't. Why?

That organization is on FILM going before the Ohio Board of Elections pleading their case about the problems w/Diebold, yet the Diebold bigwigs showed up to defend their product, and what happened? Cuyahoga County went right ahead with a multi-million dollar purchase of the flawed equipment. Looks like that good ol' boy RepubliKLAN network is still going strong. BTW, you can check out the story for an update - Cuyahoga County ultimately SUED Diebold for faulty election tabulations, but I don't remember how it was resolved. Probably with other Diebold equipment under a different name - new name, same old faulty equipment. That crew DESERVES to be embarrassed for their redneck actions, imo.

The electronic voting maching debacle needs to become the focus of the Democratic Party and concerned Americans everywher, imo. Rest assured, if the votes were going the OTHER way, something would be done.

[wroberts189]

141. A vote should be at least equal to a penny at an ATM

And we all know how that worked out. Not a single penny lost ..ever reported.

EVER

If pennies were lost ... pitchforks and torches. If I know one thing...people will not stand for theft... even pennies.

paper ballot is the only way ...period.

[liberal N proud]

142. I think Computers are a integral part of our lives but they have no

place in the voting booth.

[Vektor]

143. K&R

The only thing e-voting machines are good for is committing fraud.

[Khaotic]

144. K&R!

:kick:

[Hansel]

145. K&R Baby K&R!

[Pooka Fey]

146. Me. K&R

[Higher Standard]

147. There should ALWAYS be a paper trail! K&R

[drm604]

150. K&R

:kick:

[Dinger]

151. Done!

[Mabus]

155. K&R

I like paper.

[sasquuatch55]

156. voting shouldn't require anything electronic

paper ballots only!

[Dragonfli]

157. K&R+ No Black Box Tabulation Either

Paper + Hand Counts = The hardest to steal and the easiest to audit.

I love computers and it would be faster, but I can write code to behave any way I want and I know folks that can write circles around me who know people better than them and so on....

You get the picture.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

160. BINGO!!

Fnck the tabulators too.

[valerief]

158. K&R.

:kick:

The only advantage of electronic voting is theft by the thieving party in power. Yeah, results are faster, but fast, bad results are not better than slower, reliable results.

[Indepatriot]

161. Paper,Paper,Paper,

Marked and counted By Hand.

[Donkeykick]

162. Indeed! K&R!

:headbang:

[crazy_vanilla]

163. paper ballots!!!!

That bullshit with 2000 and 04 stolen elections should never ever happen again.

[CruisePlanner]

164. Not even optical scan.

I am a poll worker in infamous Palm Beach County, FL and I have to relate my recent experience. All poll workers in Florida are required, prior to every election, to take a mandatory training class. At my recent class the trainer was discussing how the optical scan machines will reject bad ballots (most notably those with over-votes). She obviously had prearranged some bad ballots to be used as examples. In no less than three attempts the bad ballots she picked up and inserted into the scanner were readily accepted... no alert signal from the machine or subsequent rejection. She showed no reaction to it at all but several of us in the room were rolling our eyes and mumbling..."Oh here we go again!" I vowed that after the class I would go up and see how the tape had recorded those ballots. Unfortunately the session included a segment at the end for new workers to stay and watch a video and I did not have time to wait around.

It is entirely possible that the trainer mistakenly pulled ballots from the wrong pile during her demo...but from where I was sitting it certainly seemed that she was selecting those sample "bad ballots" from the same stack each time. I sure was not getting a "warm fuzzy feeling" about the system. If there's no consistency in how the optical scan machines reject bad ballots then who is to say what else is happening with those machines. I completely agree that it's time to go back to simple paper ballots or mechanical, rather than electrical, voting machines.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

172. It's nice to hear the experience of those on the front line...

...thanks for sharing that, and welcome to DU.

:hi:

[LeftishBrit]

165. k& r - we still use paper ballots in the UK and it works well!

[viat0r]

166. Listen.......

Your vote can be stolen even with paper ballots and we all know how. Electronic/computers voting machines are the future we just need to REGULATE how and whom they are made by and who and how they are audited by. For starters they MUST BE OPEN SOURCE. That way the code can be looked at by anyone to make sure somthing hasnt been slipped in there to do nefarious things. Secondly you need a verifiable record. It could be as simple as a paper receipt. Or an electronic database that says #1234567890 voted on <date> and all americans can access the database and search their own records only to verify that thier vote was counted. I would like both.. a paper receipt and to be able to goto the .gov database and verify that i was actually counted in the end.

[sandyj999]

167. They All Need To Go!

[bagrman]

168. 08 tea party needed.

[Utopian Leftist]

170. What Michael Moore said

on Bill Maher's REal Time last night: all of Europe and Canada do it with a piece of paper and a #2 lead pencil. That's exactly what we SHOULD be doing.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

171. K & R

[seafan]

173. Pen and paper ballots, hand counted at the precinct under direct public observation, with

...results telephoned in to the Secretary of State's office, then posted on the precinct's door.


When it comes to casting and counting our votes, my feeling is unequivocal. No. Machines. Whatsoever.


Put the vote back into the hands of the people.


Related thread specific to Florida, from 2006

[Raster]

198. YES! At least a full week should be allowed for voting, with extended hours to accommodate all!

[kestrel91316]

174. Inkavote optical scanned - it's what we have in Los Angeles.

You make a black mark in the little oval (like I did for YEARS in college and even some in HS). No hanging chads. Easily recounted by hand if necessary.

Electronic voting machines are a fascist tool to oppress the people (wow, I sound like a socialist or communist)!!!!!

[AuntPatsy]

175. Wholeheeartedly agree..k & r

[TexasObserver]

176. K&R. Only Paper ballots for federal offices!!

[ljm2002]

177. Here's what I think:

I think that we should use electronic machines strictly as an input device.

It has many advantages: it would, for example, allow you to click on a candidate or proposition and bring up the same information that is in the voting pamphlet, right then and there.

However, the end result should be a printed paper with your choices clearly shown.

These can then be counted or optically scanned -- I'm okay with that as long as (a) recounts are done by hand from the original paper ballots; and (b) there are numerous random recounts all over the country, no forewarning of anyone.

And the ballots that the machines print must be handed to the voters for verification before they put them in the ballot box. Well I guess they would have to be verified first, before they are made available to the voters -- otherwise too much chance for mischief -- a voter could say no, then keep the first ballot and print another. Conversely, for any ballot that the voter does not verify and does not get in their hot little hands, the rejects should be sent to a shredder right then and there for the voter to see that their rejected ballot was shredded.

That is the system I would implement.

[NikolaC]

178. I Prefer Paper Ballots As Well

I don't feel confident voting on one of those machines, which I will have to do on Tuesday. Unless they come out with 100% tamper and hack proof machines, I will NEVER trust that every single vote is being counted and counted correctly.

[JDwho]

180. K&R

[rg123]

181. Paper Ballots

Counted in plain sight for all. Nothing less os acceptable. I believe Americans would be glad to do it even for free.

[avaistheone1]

182. Voting machines are not reliable. They can be hacked too easily.

I don't want to trust a private company with my vote. Look at Diebold promising Ohio to Bush in 2004. Boy oh boy! did they ever deliver!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. kick

[foxfeet]

184. Kick.

Can't trust 'em.

[TheFarseer]

185. I have NO idea, what's wrong with Scantron

That's what we use in Nebraska and I think it's the best way. I have used the voting machines when I lived somewhere else and I didn't like it.

[machI]

186. Kicked and Recommended

[Ken Burch]

187. Kick.. too late to recommend, but I would have.

n/t.

[bmartello]

188. K&R

[orbitalman]

189. K & R Get rid of the ballot secrecy.

After all, whats the point? Will people equate me voting for Obama because my yard contains an Obama/Biden sign??? Huh-huh??? Jesus, Joseph & Mary. Let's get to the ROOT.

[BlueDonkey08]

190. Hand-counted paper ballots for me

It's simpler and can't be tampered with as easily.

Kicked and Recommended

[Spiffarino]

191. This was the easiest "rec" of the year

I've worked with computer systems for over twenty years.

DO NOT TRUST COMPUTERS WITH YOUR VOTE!

[LiberalLovinLug]

192. Kick

against the machine(s)!!!!!

[trickyguy]

193. Absolutely for paper ballots. We have them here in Wisconsin.

Let's get this voting thing standardized across the nation.

Didn't we put a man on the moon a few years ago?

Surely we can solve this dilema with our techinical expertize.

Unless there's some secret motive for having things screwed up.:evilfrown:

[Vroomfondel]

195. Optical scanners are NOT safe!

If anyone here has not seen the documentary "Hacking Democracy", I suggest that you jump on YouTube and do so. The makers of the film hired a Dutch hacking expert to find out if he could hack into the 'Tabulator Data File' of the optical scanner. It took him only minutes to do so, and from there on, the machine functioned completely normally, with the exception of giving extra votes to the preferred candidate in the vote totals.

When polls close on election day, all optical scanners are rounded up, and their memories are downloaded into the "Central Tabulator Data File". This is even easier to tamper with than the individual machines themselves.

Here in Alaska, we use optical scanners exclusively. In the 2004 election, Lisa Murkowski (R) (after having been appointed to the US Senate by her corrupt father, ex-US Senator Frank Murkowski, when he vacated the same seat to become Governor of Alaska. Huey long only THOUGHT he was corrupt.) ran for election to the seat against former Alaska Governor Tony Knowles (D). There were some big inconsistencies between exit polling and vote totals, so the head of the Alaska Democratic Party, Jake Metcalf, demanded to see the Central Tabulator Data File (CTDF).

The Lt. Governor and chief of elections at the time, Loren Lehman (R), refused access to the CTDF. Metcalf, on behalf of the Alaska Democratic Party, filed suit against the State of Alaska for access to the CTDF. The case went to the Alaska Supreme Court, which ordered Lt. Gov. Lehman to release the CTDF immediately. He refused AGAIN! Finally, two MONTHS later, and risking a contempt order, Lehman capitulated. The CTDF was turned over.

After Metcalf received the CTDF, he discovered that someone had logged onto the CTDF and tampered with it on the same DAY that he had made his initial demand to Lt. Gov. Lehman for access to it!!!! A United States Senate seat was very possibly stolen in Alaska, and there was not a peep in the media. Not even the local news stations ran with this info.

People, there is no such thing as a good voting "machine". Voting machines are there exclusively to enable tampering with elections. The only voting "machine" we need is a number two pencil and a paper ballot counted by human eyeballs. Like they do in nearly every other western democracy on the planet. Also, if you have not read Michael Moore's 2008 election guide, please do so. He has some excellent ideas about our voting process.

[grahamhgreen]

196. I volunteer to count all of the votes - just a name, a box, and an 'X' is the only secure way.

[latebloomer]

199. I'm with you! n/t

[theghostinme]

200. Request them if your state allows for choice...That's what I did

and the polling judges were encouraging us to use machines instead of those 'pesky old paper ballots.' I stood in the line and said to everyone: "How do we know these machines aren't rigged?" No one listened to me, of course.

[John K]

201. Nothing wrong with well designed electronic as long as have a paper trail.

We don't have to go back to the stone age. We just have to pass a law that all software for these machines must be open source, not proprietary. Then we have an auditable paper trail.

The non-machine option would be to do it Oregon's way - all mail and paper.

[sce56]

202. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

Homer try's to vote for Obama!

[rdublue]

203. Standardize voting in all states

use paper ballots & get rid of the voting machines.

[debunkthelies]

204. So do I

Paper ballots are the only way we can have honest elections. K&R:argh: :kick: :patriot: