A simple question from the GLBT community.

[last1standing]

If Sarah Palin were to become president, what would happen if she decided she no longer wanted to "tolerate" us?

I know it's not popular to talk about these things just before an election, but I hope that everyone in this forum will think about that question, because for some of us, it's not just a matter of politics. It could be a matter of life and death.

[Curtland1015]

1. Her bigotted views alone wouldn't get her very far.

If there were a neocon majority, perhaps.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

2. Edit, I didn't understand the post, sorry.

Edit: I thought your OP was homophobic, I misread it, sorry.

[last1standing]

3. Would you prefer I didn't ask?

And if so, why?

[jesus_of_suburbia]

5. I'm GAY GAY GAY! I didn't understand what you were asking at first, sorry!

*hugs*

[jesus_of_suburbia]

6. FURTHERMORE, I truly believe 99% of DU would take up for us.

I have no doubt.


99% wouldn't agree to gay marriage, but 99% would never let us die.


It's a non-issue at DU.





We are a diverse family here.

[last1standing]

9. LOL! It's cool.

I've just been thinking about some things that I described in another post in this thread. I know DU is on our side, I just wanted to voice a fear as it's usually a good way to let it go.

:hug:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

12. Palin would be the worst President EVER! But I believe in the 2nd amendment. My gay family is safe

*hugs*

[RedLetterRev]

48. Us too

there is such a thing as a redneck queer. It ain't easy growing up or living in the country. Fortunately, where we live, we're not just "tolerated", we're an accepted and loved part of the community. "Them boys" farm, hunt, and do everything everyone else does, so "everyone else" figures "what's the big deal?" Got a car stuck in the mud? Call one of "them boys", they've got a truck and a log chain. Got a tree down? One of "them boys" has got a chain saw. "Them boys" have the best 'maters and blackberries, and are willing to barter for honey and eggs.

But we've been a lot of places (mostly the cities) where we've not been accepted at all and we know just how rough it can get. We've had the beer bottles thrown at our windshield because of the equality sticker on the pickup, heard the shouts of "faggots!", yadda-frickin'-yadda. But where we are, we know how lucky we are.

[darkmaestro019]

15. There have been gay marriages as long as there's been humanity.

We just don't get the tax breaks or the rights when our marriages get shattered that straight ones do.


(Not trying to be argumentative, just honest)

EDIT: I know that's a grammar nightmare but I can't see how to fix it. Please scuse kthx loveya.

[catnhatnh]

28. If you believe 99% of DU wouldn't agree to gay marriage...

I've GOT to say you are wrong. I'm lower middle class, straight, white, and male, 55 years old next month and YEARS past thinking I should be the arbiter of either the relationships of others or thinking WE (meaning:people not like you) should define terms.

In the cold hard light of day, I in my heterosexual mindset committed myself to marriages to two women and in both cases my honest intent failed to reach even to the level of certain geese who truly were lifetime committed.

The arguement for an equal legal standing are a given for me even if the law lags behind. Where I come from is let the words or titles lag behind if the force of law is laid to prevent discrimination. Remember that marriage is just a word that they try to keep you from.

But I would comepletely believe you married.And at some point as long as the rights are the same, then the words are just semantics...and tired ones at that.

[Clio the Leo]

4. Not to worry ....... she will never have the chance.

Instead, we will have two men in the highest offices in the land who believe ... as I was raised .... that despite any differences, if one person's rights are violated, EVERYONE'S rights are violated.

She will lose this election .... and then we will make sure she never wins another.

Sleep peacfully tonight my friend, a brighter day is dawning for all of us.

[last1standing]

8. Thanks, and I do believe she'll never win the presidency.

I was just thinking about that VP debate and how she kept going on about "tolerating" us. It made me realize that if mcRacist had been a better campaigner or if the market hadn't crashed, she could possibly have been the next VP in line behind a sickly, old man.

Nothing scares me more than the thought of so much hatred and ambition combined obtaining the presidency. She could do more damage to the world than Hitler ever dreamed of. :scared:

[darkmaestro019]

22. May I borrow or steal that logo?

I have a deep love for the Sun--19/tarot is part of why, also Aries, also, what stronger more postive symbol? I'll credit you or whoever, I just want to use it here and there or send it to people, it's just wonderful, and I've never seen it till now.

[Clio the Leo]

27. Heck yes! I Googled it! lol

Steal the heck out of it. lol

[patrice]

7. Nomatter how long she is part of the political scene, she should be asked to define

the word "tolerate" at every opportunity, over and over and over again, and that should include giving a variety of concrete examples of her definition.

As long as I am a member of the Democratic party, I will not allow it to tolerate the violation of any American's Civil Rights.

[last1standing]

10. Thanks Patrice.

:hug:

[Clio the Leo]

16. "tolerate" is a vile, disgusting word.....

I could not explain it better than what one of my personal heros, Jane Elliot said.....

"Tolerate" means "to put up with."

"Elliott argued that “tolerance” was not the proper route to take regarding racism, sexism and homophobia.
“You don’t ‘tolerate’ people,” Elliott said. “You love and cherish people.”

http://media.www.webujournal.com/media/storage/paper245/news/2001/03/08/Culture/youre.Not.Born.A.Bigot.Lecture.Packs.The.House-53030.shtml

My greatest wish is that Barack Obama would PUT this woman in charge of SOMETHING.

[darkmaestro019]

20. THIS! Thank you, Clio dear

Exactly. TO PUT UP WITH. I am not an annoyance! I'm not bothering her or the straights or anybody else! I just want to go to work, come home, kiss my lover, and not worry what happens to me if I wake up with appendicitis, or he does.

"You love and cherish people."

YES. This. THIS THIS THIS.

I wish he'd put her in charge of the sewers, or something. Tolerate this!

[patrice]

51. Agreed. This is why I think she should be put on the spot about what this word implies = ARROGANCE.

But I guess that's what we should expect from people who ESSENTIALLY think themselves somekind of Royalty. And it is intolerance of Royalty that is one of the things that will connect my Gay Brothers & Sisters to those who mistakenly think they have no common cause with you.

Just as the word Liberal has been turned against us, the word "Royal" should be used as often as possible in reference to those who oppose Civil Rights for All Americans. By extension we could also make a case for Blasphemy, but perhaps it would be best to stick to more secular words like "Royal". This connection can be made quite easily with the word "tolerate".

[cbayer]

11. Bush won with the religious right because of two issues: abortion and gay marriage.

He wasn't able to do much about either one and things have been progressing (albeit at a snail's pace) despite his pledges.

I am not sure what you are asking. When you say "no longer wanted to *tolerate* us", are you envisioning something worse than where we are now?

I imagine that if I were GLBT, I would be enraged. But I would probably still see the incremental progress over my lifetime and believe that we will get there. I see this battle much as I did *The* (other) Civil Rights movement.

I can not imagine that the people of this country would allow for this group to be silenced or eliminated. I don't think the people of this country would even tolerate a step backwards.

But we will see, won't we? I see prop 8 as a real referendum on where the citizens really stand on this.

I am very hopeful about defeating this.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

18. Call me a Tom, but I'm glad Biden and Obama say they aren't for gay marriage. Baby steps.

I don't believe either of them believe that deep down.

Say whatever you have to say to get elected.

The trend is in our favor.

I'm gay and you can call me a sell-out, but I'd rather our Dem leaders work on civil unions first... then 10-20 years from now I think gay marriage will be a no brainer in ALL 50 states.

The most important thing in 2008 is that our politicians support civil unions and vote against Constitutional marriage amendments.


BABY STEPS, MY SISTERS AND BROTHERS (gay and straight)!

[cbayer]

29. I have very mixed feelings about this.

If I were gay, I would not accept the expedience argument and not be willing to just sit tight. OTOH, I have many friends who feel that things are so much better for them now and they, like you, are willing to let this unfold on a slower timetable.

I hope I live to see the day when the laws of the land clearly state that any discrimination based on sexual orientation is unacceptable. I hope we never again see constitutional amendments that specifically disallow equal rights for any group of people.

We are clearly closer to this with our Democratic ticket and I a hopeful that they will actually move the cause forward.

:hi:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

31. I wrote a very nasty reply to you, I apologize. I'm about to PM you.. I'm sorry.

I'm going to edit my reply.

[cbayer]

34. I have very mixed feelings about this.

If I were gay, I would not accept the expedience argument and not be willing to just sit tight. OTOH, I have many friends who feel that things are so much better for them now and they, like you, are willing to let this unfold on a slower timetable.

I hope I live to see the day when the laws of the land clearly state that any discrimination based on sexual orientation is unacceptable. I hope we never again see constitutional amendments that specifically disallow equal rights for any group of people.

We are clearly closer to this with our Democratic ticket and I a hopeful that they will actually move the cause forward.

:hi:

[last1standing]

24. I do see progress.

As I'm sure the gay community in Berlin just before the Nazis took over saw progress. Do I think that palin will lead the U.S. to slaughter millions of gays and Jews? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes. Her comments have been quite clear, she hates people like me, and I will always worry that someone like her will dominate the political arena.

Remember that it has only been about 75 years since it happened the last time. In terms of history and social evolution, that is not even the blink of an eye.

[cbayer]

26. I hear your fear, but you are a part of my family and the family of millions of straight

americans. How many of us have GLBT children, best friends, coworkers and, at this point, leaders across the spectrum that we love and respect?

I do not minimize the discrimination and marginalization that still exists, but I also do not underestimate the will of the majority of americans.

It will not happen the way you describe. It will not happen.

:pals:

[last1standing]

36. Thanks.

There will probably always be a fear in the back of my mind because I've seen it happen before. I know that there are still innocent people out there being gaybashed as I type this. I know there will be more to come. A country that allows these actions is never really safe for us and it makes it much easier for us to believe that it could happen on a larger scale.

But thanks for your words of encouragement. :hug:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

30. I'm an idiot.

I'm stupid.

[darkmaestro019]

13. I am NOT a noisy drunk, an unpleasant smell, or a neighbor with uncut grass.

I am not something to TOLERATE. I TOLERATE my roommates' thirty cats and lack of houseclean because I have no choice, and I find it horrible. I TOLERATE people who go thirty in a fortyfive. I TOLERATE my stepdad's ranting. TOLERATE is a word for "I hate this but I'd rather ignore it while making a disapproving face than say anything." TOLERATE is a word for "This aggravates and/or hurts me but the argument is more trouble than the current aggravation."

How am I hurting you with my queerness, Mrs. Palin? Because you're hurting me plenty with your disapproving face, because people (stupid people, yes, but there are plenty of those!) look up to you, and what you "tolerate" they decide to help you out with eliminating.

I'm probably being unclear here, but I really loathe that word. It's a word that refers to pain thresholds and gritting of teeth, and I don't see how what I do with my household/genitalia/affection AFFECTS you at all, let alone gives you the right to grudgingly, teeth-grittingly TOLERATE it. What is it? PDA? Honey, half the PDA I ever saw made me want to gag aesthetically, but realistically, I'd rather see hideous people of any genders kissing and holding hands than shooting at each other. Honestly, I find it kind of soothing and even a little cute if ANYONE anywhere loves each other enough to hold hands or share a family or kiss waiting for a bus. What kind of cold evil is in your heart that you find any form of that the equivalent of a STINK?

What is wrong with you that love in any form is something you're being GENEROUS enough to "tolerate"?

[last1standing]

17. That should have been the OP.

Thank you.

[renie408]

19. Actually, I kind of think true tolerance is a little more special than ignoring a bad smell.

True tolerance means that you allow for all kinds of people. You accept without judgment behaviors and physical traits different from your own. You allow things to just BE. Without any special notice either way. If you are truly tolerant, you don't NOTICE the gay couple or the mixed couple. You just notice couples. At least that is what it means to me. If you 'tolerate' something, it doesn't effect you. It is actually a passive thing, not an active thing. If you are being ACTIVELY tolerant, you are working at it. I think that is what you are talking about. Noticing the smell, but not reacting. True tolerance means you don't even notice it.

[darkmaestro019]

25. I must say

you've crossed your jump rope in the first line. That's not "tolerance" that's "acceptance" (IMO)

But the mindset you are explaining, yes, that's all I ask. I notice just "Aw, they're cute" and I don't care about gender, age, race, I just see and almost FEEL the love from them. How can anyone find that to be an ugly thing to tolerate? I just want more of that in the world, forever and always. I cannot see love or even just affection and friendliness as something DIFFICULT, and people who do make me.........worry. I keep thinking of Mordor, or something.........Ecthroi.....ugly creatures that are metaphors for........ugly creatures.

I don't think you're disagreeing with the general view here, dear, I think it's an issue of word choice. But to me, "tolerate" always comes with a silent "barely" in front of it.

Thank you for your words. Again, "don't even notice it" I'd say is "accept" and not tolerate. But I know, it's just an issue of how people view certain words. Words are merely a way to express thoughts, and your thoughts as I'm grokking them are all I could or ever would ask for from society or individuals.

But as I preview this, why must I be "allowed" for? Please understand, dear, I'm really not trying to attack you or be difficult. But I cannot help but think of a judge going "I'll allow it" like he's making an exception. Can you understand what I'm probably failing to get at?

Peace and have a lovely night. :)

[renie408]

14. A) There is no better time to talk about these things than before an election

It is one of the things that decides my vote, for one. And B)If Sarah Palin becomes President, it will have just as drastic implications for some segments of the NON GLBT community. And yes, it could be a matter of life and death for those of us who are straight, too. So, C) We'd best all join together and make damn sure that she doesn't get there, huh?

[volstork]

21. I'm afraid it would look something like

Germany in the mid-to-late 30s. I have some dear friends who are a gay couple with two grade-schoolers who seriously considered moving to Costa Rica after the last election. One is a physician, and the other is a lawyer. Germany drove out some of its finest citizens, and a palin theocracy would do the same to the U.S.
Fortunately, she will never get the chance. Just a few more days and she will crawl back under her rock and hopefully rot there.

[Lint Head]

23. That's what really angers me about M$M pundits. They always

say 'it's just politics'. Well I have news for the media. (Yes a pun.) Politics kills. It kills more people faster then drugs, cigarettes and drunk driving combined! 3,000 incinerated on 9/11. Hundreds of thousands in Iraq including 4,184 US soldiers.
Nuff said. :dem:

[Neshanic]

32. Anderson Cooper will fight for us. I am not afraid.

[last1standing]

33. I feel much better now.

[DRoseDARs]

38. "In Prada." -- Kathy Griffin

eom

[ruggerson]

41. lol

[DRoseDARs]

35. The expanded Democratic majority in both chambers of Congress would shut her down. Hard.

This nation and its Progressives wouldn't be getting the "change" they've wanted, but at least they won't get the "change" they don't want. Even if the Democrats don't get veto-proof margins in the House and Senate, there are moderate Republicans that would be totally turned off by her extremist views and would vote on key issues with the Democrats.

[The Traveler]

37. Jeezus

I try not to think about that one. It prompts questions. How many gay folk can I hide in my attic? How do I know who I can trust to smuggle them out to safety? How do underground railroads form in an era of almost effortless surveillance?

You approach my nightmares. Begone! Well, unless the crap comes down in which case I got some room in my attic ...


Trav

[paregdem]

39. Your post made me think of "First They Came"

Your question is something that all voters should think very seriously about. Democrats, Republicans, Independents and Greens alike should think long and hard before casting their precious ballot. What if Sarah Palin chooses to no longer "tolerate" our many differences (lifestyle, religion, race, ethnicity, relationship/sexual orientation, etc.)?

One version of "First They Came"

First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

If any of our rights are threatened, I sincerely hope that we will be united, to do whatever is necessary in order to preserve our rights as citizens of the United States of America.

[last1standing]

45. Words to never forget.

As a society, we are only as strong as our weakest member. Either we support everyone or we all fail individually.

[nini]

40. Congress is still here to stop that crap.

As much as the right has tried to change that the truth is we still have some checks of power in this country.

[lunatica]

42. I understand your worry. It has plenty of precendent

I've worried about this country becoming a fascist state every bit like Nazi Germany. I've read about and studied the holocaust all my adult life (I'm 60 now) and because this country has been so racist and homophobic I've always felt that under the right circumstances persecution of whole groups of people could easily happen here. American's are no different than anyone else in the world. Human nature is what it is in any country. So anyone trying to argue that something can't happen here is deluding themselves.

But I also know that perhaps the one thing that does set us apart from other countries is the enormousness of our country and the sheer diversity of people who inhabit it. That means that any government trying to control us would find the experience to be like herding cats (or trying to find consensus among Democrats). People like Sarah Palin can only influence the people she already influences. She's pretty insignificant and powerless with the large city dwellers (because they're like herding cats too, even with each other) and with educated people, career people and certainly with any ethnic minority group, of which we have millions and millions from all corners of the planet. She thinks she's talking to the core Americans, but she's really only talking to the fringe people. The Ultra Reactionary Christian minority, the skinhead crowd and the worst of the redneck group. They can't get her into the White House. And before you remind me that George Bush was voted into the White House I'll remind you that he was selected by the Supreme Justices after stealing the elections, twice. But even the Supreme Court isn't handing Bush everything he wants these days. They're going directly against his will in the Guantanamo prisoner issues, and I believe they would go against his or Palin's wish to hurt or imprison the GLBT community. As would all the Americans who are voting against that damn prop 8 (my vote has been cast in an absentee ballot). So I think it doesn't matter whether Sarah Palin would tolerate you or not because it will never be of that much significance.

And if by any chance your worst case scenario were to happen, then dissenters like me would be persecuted too. Because anyone not a Right wing reactionary Christian would be the enemy to her and her people. Dictators don't just go after one group of people. They go after everyone they perceive is in any way a possible threat to them. That means everyone on DU would be toast. And that's just one site.

[paregdem]

43. Damn! Great Post!

:thumbsup: :yourock: :thumbsup:

[last1standing]

44. I appreciate that.

Let's hope that it never comes down to that kind of dissension.

[goletian]

46. then theyre gonna have to learn to tolerate some fuckin whoopass. those are their choices.

[No Elephants]

47. I will do what I have done in the past. March on the State House and donate. Did you have any-

thing else in mind? If so, tell us.

[Indenturedebtor]

49. This straight Jew would throw a molotov for you.

I will stand with you! I'm sure my wife would as well... so make that two who would not idly watch while the Nazis march.

[endthewar]

50. It wouldn't be a matter of life and death

You're being a little melodramatic here.