So pulling up signs is cool, if we're the one's doing it?

[SidneyCarton]

As we barrel headlong into the final weeks of this long, brutal and ultimately messy campaign, there are some things that need addressing. We have criticized the Republicans, and rightfully so, for the stealing, vandalism and harassment of those who display signs backing our candidates for the Presidency, other offices and various initiatives which we back. Yet at the same time, I have seen boasting by various members of the progressive community of their vandalism and destruction of signs and banners backing the candidates and positions of the opposition. Such activity calls into question the health or our democracy.

If we claim to be electing Barack Obama President because his election would restore civility and respect for Constitutional rule to our government then there are no excuses for the behavior listed above. If we truly care about the democratic process and democratic values, then we are obliged to respect our fellow Americans right to support candidates and policies that we disagree with, regardless of their inherent rightness or injustice. To do otherwise is to admit a shocking level of hypocrisy, one usually associated with Karl Rove and his proteges. If we argue, as we ought to, that the tactics, chicanery and vile politics of the Right are reprehensible, shameful and wrong, then our emulation of such politics, even for what are ostensibly “the right reasons” are equally wrong. We will be unable to reestablish the democracy we claim to cherish so deeply through underhanded and dishonest activity. Instead all we can hope for is an administration of “righteous payback” toward the Republicans in the next few years, that effectively solves nothing and continues the degradation of our liberties and the disintegration of our country.

If stealing or defacing our signs and banners is wrong, than our stealing or defacing their signs and banners is equally wrong.

If their using slurs and epithets to describe our candidates, their wives or their supporters is wrong, then our use of slurs, epithets and insults to describe their candidates, their wives or their supporters is equally wrong.

If harassment of our voters, our homes and families is wrong, then conversely, the same behavior on our part is equally reprehensible.

Come November 5, we will still be a nation with Democrats and Republicans, these people of whom we now loudly decry and despise will still be our neighbors. Our outrage is not enough to justify immoral behavior.

To paraphrase Mahatma Gandhi, an eye for an eye only manages to render the whole world blind.

[fascisthunter]

1. who are these various progressives boasting?

It's wrong regardless, but honestly, this is the first time I have heard about this.

[FSogol]

7. Same here. I've had 3 signs destroyed and 1 stolen, but have not

engaged in any revenge.

The person ripping up my signs is guilty of trespassing and destruction of private property.

Even worse, they are violating my right to free speech. A truly anti-American crime. I wouldn't lower myself to their level. Each sign destruction/theft causes me to put up another sign and donate to Obama again.

[fascisthunter]

8. I Concur...

I would never do such a thing, nor would I support such a thing. What a stupid thing to do...

[T Wolf]

2. I say that there is a time for playing by the rules, and it is not that time, yet. For too many

years, the Dems have had their asses handed to them by a rigged system and an enemy who does not fight fair.

IF it is so important to "win" this time that many progressive values are "off the table" in the name of appealing to the middle, it is at least that important to not handicap ourselves by adhering to rules that the GOP regularly break.

After we have won and reset the system to the operational mode it should be, then and ONLY THEN should we pull back to our "better selves" and take the high road.

To disarm now, while the thugs are going "nukular" is just plain stupid.

[SidneyCarton]

11. I see your point, and I cannot necessarily disagree.

But we set our own limits, if there are no limits now, who is to say we will be able to reimpose them after the election? The Republicans didn't, and found it advantageous to continue in their relentless asshattery, until now there is nothing left for them but to act that way. We must be careful lest we become what we loathe.

[EstimatedProphet]

14. Bull

Sorry, but that's wrong. We cannot claim to resent the Repubs ot playing by the rules and simultaneously not play by the rules ourselves. That's hypocrisy.

[FatDave]

16. While what you say has a lot of merit...

...is stealing McCain signs really the most effective use of one's energy? Seems pretty childish to me. And what is the benefit? To annoy some of his supporters? To give them ammo against us?

[Jack Bone]

3. I approve this message! K&R

[grantcart]

4. Stealing signs is wrong period

I have been tempted to pick up the 'Yes on 8' signs they are the most aggravating.


Not enough McCain/Palin signs to make a difference.

[musicblind]

5. Wow some people are hypocrites and assholes. I think just as lowly as someone who would steal

a McCain sign as I do someone who would steal an Obama sign.

[tigereye]

6. no, it's never cool

people have a right to support whom they want.

[Orsino]

9. Besides its being wrong...

...you'd think real Obama supporters wouldn't want McCain getting more money for the replacement signs.

Is this crap being promoted on DU? If so, where?

[SidneyCarton]

10. here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4282042&mesg_id=4282042

[Starry Messenger]

19. I am in that thread and I was not celebrating the signs being pulled down.

Just in case you needed clarification.

[Zuiderelle]

23. I think it's GREAT that someone parked that SUV in front of that home.

How is that illegal?

Of course stealing a sign is bad and illegal and shouldn't be condoned, but I APPLAUD whoever parked that SUV in front of their house.

[crazy_vanilla]

37. love the pic in your signature line

It truly tells a thousand words. :) You don't mind that I "borrowed" it, do you?

[Zuiderelle]

38. I also borrowed it!

:D So, feel free!

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=12547

[endarkenment]

25. Wow. OK so the OP misrepresents the issue.

Your evidence has nothing to do with pulling down McCain signs. While I do not condone destruction of property, I think the battle against prop 8 is a whole different can of beans. We are talking about legislation that would take away the basic human rights of some people. That is an extreme and intolerant act and I understand why the poster acted as he did.

[SidneyCarton]

12. Thanks for the responses, I appriciated the insight of those who posted.

[EstimatedProphet]

13. God post. If it's wrong for one it's wrong for all.

[Overseas]

15. Oh come on !! Democratic side is so much sweeter than the Repubs.

Cut us some slack, for goodness' sake!
We're not jeering at them as they go in to do early voting.
We're not sending Democrats onto the airwaves to condemn Republicans for McLiar as anti-American.
We're not issuing robocalls about the Serial Adulterer Born in Panama who dumped his first wife after she got fat in an auto accident...
We're not smearing and jeering in campaign ads and rallies.

The Democrats are about 50 times kinder than the Republicans so if some of us come to our little DU to shout out some vitriol against the Republican slander, that's not bad.

Obama and Biden do not accuse our opponents of being un-American terrorists. They do not incite the Democratic crowds to violence.

And it is usually the Republicans who tell us to stop being mean while they slash & burn. It is usually Republicans who tell us to be bipartisan and then use it against us.

So you can take your LET"S BE NICE strategy and put it back in 2004 where it belongs. Right there with the "Oh gosh, no one would really try to manipulate the vote counts. That's ridiculous." sensible statements. Then you can watch "Stealing America: Vote by Vote" to find out about the several techniques Republicans have used in recent elections to reduce the number of Democratic vote count in that calm and comprehensive documentary. www.stealingamericathemovie.com

[Fly by night]

17. There are many things that should distinguish us from Rethugs. Stealing signs is one of them.

I would no more consider stealing a McMooselini sign than I would consider voting for them.

If anyone reading this is stealing political signs, cut that shit out. Show some class -- leave the no-class behavior to the Rethugs.

[Fly by night]

18. There are many things that should distinguish us from Rethugs. Stealing signs is one of them.

I would no more consider stealing a McMooselini sign than I would consider voting for them.

If anyone reading this is stealing political signs, cut that shit out. Show some class -- leave the no-class behavior to the Rethugs.

[Fly by night]

20. Sorry for the dupe post, but this deserves saying twice. Leave McMooselini's signs alone, all y'all.

[Overseas]

22. No it doesn't. Not at all a big deal on our side. We know that if we take the signs

they will have to buy more, thus donating to McLame. So we don't do it nearly as much as the Republicans.

SO STOP ALREADY with the ridiculous Holier Than Thou finger waving.

[Fly by night]

36. I don't know about Thou, but I am holier than Rethug sign thieves.

We deal with it a lot out here in middle Tennessee, and we are proud not to stoop to their level. It's one of many ways you can tell us apart, and I'm thankful for that.

But just so I don't sound too holier than Thou, bite me.

[Zuiderelle]

21. I saw the thread now that you are referring to and your OP here is ENTIRELY MISLEADING.

I fully support pulling up political signs for the opposition if they are not where they are supposed to be. But I have never seen anyone here brag about pulling a sign off of someone's lawn or private property.

People applauding that thread are applauding someone parking a car in front of a bigot's yard. I fully support their right to do that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4282042&mesg_id=4282042

[fascisthunter]

41. wicked misleading

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Yes -- and no way in hell it isn't DELIBERATE.

[mtnsnake]

24. Pulling up signs is wrong, but dammit when they remove Democratic signs over & over

and we sit there with our thumbs up our asses and don't take any action, that's just rolling over and letting them push us around. Screw that. An eye for an eye. After watching so many of my Kerry signs disappear in 2004 and not being able to come up with replacements in the end, I told myself that in the future when they take a Democratic sign, 2 Repuke signs are going to disappear.

On one strategic corner in my area, there were Republican signs plastered all over the place. Someone put up an Obama sign in the same vicinity and it lasted less than a day. I went back later that night and took down the McCain sign, getting some kind of white grease all over my hands when I yanked the sucker out, but it was worth it just to even up the score. The next day another McCain sign replaced the one I borrowed. Then another Obama one went up. The next day the new Obama one was gone again. Then some good samaritan, not me, took the new McCain sign. Another Obama sign was up by morning, replacing the two previously taken ones. For the last week, there have been no new McCain signs in this vicinity, but the last Obama one remains. It pays to be vigilant.

[endarkenment]

26. Complete Misleading. Nothing to do with Obama and McCain.

The evidence produced was in regards to prop 8, an intolerable act that would take away basic human rights from some people in the state of California.

[Zuiderelle]

27. Exactly. At least the OP should be honest about what the hell he's referring to.

And there was no one supporting stealing signs. Just people applauding the ingenuity of someone calling a bigot a bigot.

I guess I'm glad this thread pointed that one out to me though, so that I could go over there and applaud them as well.

:D

[Alter Ego]

28. Who's stealing McCain signs? Who would WANT them?

[greguganus]

46. Republican HQ manager claims house was shot up over McLame signs

Who knows....

http://www.local6.com/politics/17784129/detail.html

[stillcool]

29. Signs aren't on my concern meter.

[Bake]

30. I might pee on one, but I'd never steal it!

:rofl:

OK, just joking there. Oddly, even here in MS, I haven't seen that many McLame signs.

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Only if John McCain is the moral equivalent of Barack Obama.

Frankly, I'm sick of all this false equivalence nonsense.

[cascadiance]

32. The only sign "activism" I'd even thought of this election was to put IN anti-prop 8 signs...

... in front of churches, who litter their lawn with pro prop 8 (removing rights to gay marriage from state constitution) signs. Or at least another sign like "You want to be political? PAY YOUR DAMN TAXES THEN!".

Problem is, I was told churches can take stances on propositions legally. They just legally can't endorse or speak against a party or a political candidate. That still just seems WRONG to me. Why should my taxpayer's money be used to fund them to advocate taking away people's rights in our state's constitution?!!

Do progressive churches put up anti-prop 8 signs without getting the GOP's wrath? I recall a church in L.A. getting in trouble with them for sermons speaking out against the war, with the GOP trying to take away their tax exempt status.

[SidneyCarton]

33. You make a good point.

California has a referendum system, perhaps a proposition can be passed which will further limit Churches ability to advocate in politics. I'm not certain how this would work with the First Amendment though, but it is worthy of consideration.

[WhollyHeretic]

34. I have not heard of any incidents of this. I saw the one you linked to but it's just not happening

on a large scale. I don't see the point of the finger wagging here. Stealing Obama signs is an epidemic, even in the very blue state I live in.

My parents live in a very red town though. My wife and I were driving there for dinner and saw nothing but McCain signs. We got to my parents house and their Obama sign was gone. It turns out that pretty much every Obama sign in town was stolen and that turns out to be a lot of them. My parents said Obama signs are 2 to 1 even in this red town.

I live in a very blue town where the population is around half African American and we've have tons of signs stolen in town.

[volstork]

35. Excellent post.

I would love to deface signs and bumper stickers, but I know it is the wrong thing to do. Sometimes (actually most of the time, if I am being honest) I am intolerant of the intolerant. It makes no sense, I know, but I do not want to descend into intolerance myself, as much as I may disagree with the views of others. I am sure those voting for mmcain are just as scared of Obama being elected as I am of mccain being elected, but that is their prerogative, and I am bound to respect it.

[LWolf]

39. No. It's not.

I don't hold myself to a different standard than the rest of the world, and I don't hold my party, or my fellow democrats, to a different standard than I do republicans.

[AZBlue]

40. I haven't seen any posts like that and I'm glad I haven't! It's wrong, no matter who it is.

[eridani]

42. Big difference between public right of way and private property

I draw the line at messing with private property. Stuff on public turf is fair game, but I do think that simple destruction is ssoooooooooooooo unimaginative! I don't have a problem with making up stickers that say LOBBYIST, for instance, and pasting them over governor, senator, representative, etc.

[SidneyCarton]

45. Ok, I kind of like this one, it shows some creativity.

[eridani]

47. Color and typeface matching can be challenging artistic fun n/t

[barack the house]

43. Yes, we don't beat Republicans by becoming them it's a slippery slope then it's all gone >

and our ideals. Although it's difficult to restrain some of the strong language they inspire.f Which I'll watch myself for but I am against violent actions but if it is in defense logically you can't just be a doormat.