Can someone please tell me how lawyers at the polls will keep the machines from switching the votes?

[CTyankee]

It seems to me that we need computer experts along with the lawyers for that.

I'm all for the lawyers - eternal vigilance, etc - but unless they have some technical savvy where does that leave us when the machines are rigged?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. witnesses, names, providing legal advice on how to deal with

cruddy machines, and more.

[CoffeeCat]

2. Each of us needs to take...

...video of our vote.

Video it with a camera or a cell phone, whatever it takes.

We need to document this and then be willing to speak out.

That's my plan.

[CrispyQ]

10. I'll say this again.

In most states, electronic devices in the polling place are illegal. If that is the case in your state, you will be asked to leave & return without your device.

In Colorado, only the media is allowed to bring photography equipment into the polls & even then, all voters in the polling place a the time, must give their consent before a photo can be taken.

[CoffeeCat]

13. It's legal in my state. (nt)

[CrispyQ]

24. This is why people need to check with their local election board.

The rules vary state to state.

Also, many states have eased the rules on cell phone use (talking), but still have rules in place against photographing. For those planning to take photos or video at your polling place, please check prior to doing so.

The same goes for wearing Obama gear. Some states this is considered electioneering & is not allowed. You will be asked to remove or cover your clothing, buttons, or stickers.

[demnan]

3. The plan

We will be making 5 sweeps in the next two weeks of the voters on the precinct level who are our supporters. Contacting by canvassing and phone calls. By election day we will have a clear picture of who these voters are. We have been gathering this information from canvassing and keep refining it every week. We will have an estimated count per precinct of our supporters. The lawyer will keep track of the names as people go in and vote. That way we will know, by the numbers, whether the vote has been changed or not.

Our electronic machines are said to have a paper trail as well.

[mikita]

4. short answer....

the lawyers can't. And I doubt that computer experts can do much at the polls either, since they won't have access to the internal workings.

But it looks good, no?

What we really needed, but a complicit Congress largely ignored, was to return to true paper trails......

[Benhurst]

6. A seperate paper ballot for federal offices: president, vice-president,

U.S. Senator (if seat is open) and U.S. Representative.

It works for Canada, and they have their results within hours.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. That's a great idea - it gives the quick results, because of the few

options on the ballot - and less chance of a spoiled ballot when the voter picks both options of some incomprehensible ballot initiative causing the whole ballot to be pulled.

[stillcool]

12. Half the country now votes..

with a paper trail. It is a complicit state government, and a complicit populace, more than a complicit Congress. 18 states have legislated paper ballots and a standard automatic recount after each election, while other states still vote of DRE's with no way to conduct a recount.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/index.php

[slackmaster]

5. If the machines switch votes, the lawyers will serve as witnesses

It's too easy to write off an individual's story as a rationalization for their own error, or a simple misunderstanding. When a second pair of eyes observes an event, the story becomes orders of magnitude more believable.

[riqster]

7. They are most immediately useful in cases regarding disenfranchisement

...and intimidation of voters. They can also be more effective than laypersons in filing motions with the courts in case of election law violations, such as observed machine malfunctions.

It's not only machines counting votes; there are many other potential ways to steal an election, and having legal beagles at polling places can be of great help. Bless 'em!

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. IOW, it will force the Republicans to depend on DREs and 'adjusted'

vote compilers, rather than 'lost' provisional ballots, vote caging, etc.

[riqster]

17. That's the idea

...take away most of the tools from the vote thieves' burglary kits.

[stillcool]

8. They won't..

lawyers are there to ensure people's right to vote, not the right to have their vote counted. Choosing whether to count votes or not is up to the State government, and the people that government represents.

[peace13]

9. If the voter uses a machine with paper trail the voter needs to actually read

what the machine has printed out. If the voter agrees with the printed voted ballot then an accurate recount can be done. If the voter does not check before pushing the cast ballot button then there is no hope. The attorneys at the polls may stop some of the provisional ballot crap.

[City Lights]

11. I don't know that they can.

Vote switching is happening as I type in some parts of West Virginia. What's being done to stop it? I sent a link to the Obama team about it this morning, but short of getting a hold of the code that causes it to happen, I don't know how they stop it. It's not like it's anything new. How many times will they get away with it before Congress puts its collective foot down and puts an end to it?

[seabeyond]

16. i was so frustrated in2004 listening to story after story a kerry vote being switched to bush

and people would try to correct two, three, four times and some never could and just walk away. how many votes did they get. what where the percentages. every 10 votes for kerry. every four went to bush. they KNEW this all thru early voting and still even election day, they continued with the problem. i have seen NOTHING on it since

outrage

[City Lights]

19. It is an outrage.

I just don't understand why the Dems are so silent on it. Makes me wonder if they're afraid of being called sore losers by the GOP/media.

I remember all the optical-scan ballots they found in OH that were for Kerry, but had stickers over Kerry's name and had the Bush circle filled in? :wtf:

Look at the stink the GOP is making over ACORN. Can you imagine the stink they'd have made if the Dems had been behind all the stolen elections since 2000?

[seabeyond]

21. they do something and then blame the dems. they play dirty or lie, then say dems do it

it makes it void. people say they both do it.

it was in southern, and southwest texas and thru out new mexico. the recount was even paid for in new mexico and richardson hurried the stamp on election thru denying a recount. i dont get it. i dont know why he did this. this has made me not trust him, even though i liked him

[Peace Patriot]

18. Here's the project of the one of the most brilliant election fraud analysts...

Stephen Freeman:
http://www.electionintegrity.org/vcpp.shtml/

This group is conducting independent election day exit polling.

This is really the only way to detect fraud in voting systems (virtually all of them, in the U.S.) run on 'TRADE SECRET,'PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by Bushwhack corporations, with virtually no audit/recount controls. Half the systems in the U.S. have NO AUDIT CAPABILITY AT ALL--they cannot be audited or recounted, because there is no ballot TO count. The other half do a miserable 1% audit--totally inadequate in a 'TRADE SECRET' code system.

Venezuela has electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE code system--anyone may review the code--and still they do a whopping 55% handcount, as a check on fraud or error. Some experts say 10% is the minimum needed to detect fraud. We are not even close.

So, there you have it. Our system is nearly 100% non-transparent and closed to the public. And in that case, you have to use tools/evidence outside of the system to detect fraud or error. That's why so many of us early election fraud activits were screaming about the exit polls on 11/2/04, which showed a Kerry win by 3%, before the Corpo/Fascist media exit pollster doctored the exit polls (in absurd ways) to force them to fit the results of Diebold & brethren's 'TRADE SECRET' results. We managed to get our hands on the exit polls before they were doctored. But the same Corpo/Fascist media and the same pollster have vowed never to let the public see the real exit polls results again.

That is why this independent exit polling is needed. If you want to do something, support this effort. Volunteer. Donate. Help however you can.

-------------------------

Here's my prognosis, at this point (post-Powell endorsement, and in view of Obama 5% to 10% lead in Corpo/Fascist pre-election polls): The Corpo/Fascists who are running things have decided to let Obama win, but will significantly shave his mandate, and inflict him with a difficult, 'Blue Dog' Congress. They need to protect their election theft capability for future uses; they need a period of retrenchment in which to consolidate their control over the American people, and over the U.S. military as a tool for corporate resource wars. They have to calm things down a bit, but will not permit any serious reform. They have also inflicted Obama with this financial 9/11, to further tie his hands.

So we must be very smart about this, and NOT ABANDON ELECTION REFORM EFFORTS if Obama wins. We must get rid of these election theft machines. The best hope for that is a citizen movement at the state/local level, where control over election systems still resides, and where ordinary people still have some influence. Short of getting rid of the machines, which is proving very difficult because of corruption, we MUST--we simply MUST!--at the very least, get a paper ballot backup everywhere and a 10% audit. This will still be the least transparent vote counting system in the world, but it provides some ability to detect fraud and is doable in the short term.

[kath]

28. why the hell can't we have a transparent system?? How about like in Canada -

paper ballots, counted AT THE PRECINCT, with plenty of observers from all parties.

Doesn't give instantaneous results, but gives you fair, accurate, transparent results which can be readily audited.

[treestar]

20. If there, they can give legal advice to anyone challenged

And encourage them not to give up.

[Overseas]

22. Of course the lawyers will have read the material written by the computer experts.

Neither lawyers nor on the spot techies could prevent the machines from flipping votes.

That program would be embedded in the vote counting software and apparently the commands can be put in various locations to spin out different types of flipping in different configurations of networks. They can do mini-flips on just one race, or larger flips down ticket. Variations make patterns of fraud harder to establish. "Oh, that's just a handful of votes. That won't affect the outcome."

Perhaps if the lawyers serve as official witnesses to document the vote flipping, they can add it to their evidence of a manipulated election, to use if the final totals are challenged. They'll be able to officially document the anomalies in a manner that will be usable in court if and when necessary.

The lawyers will also be able to observe Republicans posting people at the polling places to challenge voter registrations. The purpose of that is to slow things down. Remember Ohio 2004. A big reason behind those lines was Republican operatives stationed at the polls to challenge voter registrations one by one. Using those purging lists.

Republican-owned media supported the Republican party effort to pretend there's a real voter registration fraud problem. Even though they knew, through the DOJ attorney firings, that there was no merit to the charges the Republicans kept trying to bring up against ACORN. Attorneys were fired for not taking those cases. But that didn't bother the networks, they went ahead and pretended that Republicans were worried about registration fraud and that it could be a big problem. It is miniscule. Other vote theft is far more serious.

We are glad the lawyers are there to observe and compile information more broadly.

The Obama campaign has taken the issue more seriously than their predecessors and more information has gotten out to the public.

Stealing America: Vote by Vote -- is a very calm, comprehensive documentary about election manipulation in recent elections, with TV footage and charts to review those results. There are multiple methods Republicans use to steal votes. Some have been caught, some not.

Hope Obama's lawyers will help him resist the push to concede if Republicans manage to steal enough votes to overwhelm the landslide.

[Orsino]

23. Without access to the black box that is electronic paperless voting, I don't see how.

Job One next year should be the nationalization (or banning) of the goddamned machines. At a minimum, we should have access to source code.

[Essene]

25. first and foremost... it's watchdog visibility to potential criminals

regardless of what they can do about fiddling with machines or whatever, it sends a signal to the republicans that there WILL be very serious consequences and MANY people looking out.

[CTyankee]

26. Yes, that is a good thing altho the Repubs are prolly expecting it and

have their alternate tactics all worked out.

[DefenseLawyer]

27. That's not our role.

Except to the extent that we can make a record of folks that claim the machine flipped his or her vote or that the machine otherwise didn't work properly. The main purpose is to make sure people aren't turned away from the polls or otherwise kept from voting. I worked in this capacity in the primaries and it was a very positive experience. At the polls where I was assigned, in the first hour or so I was there, there were about 10 people that came to me and said they had been told they couldn't vote or that they had to vote provisional ballot. In almost all those cases, the person should have been allowed to vote. It was apparent that the republicans running the show (and yes, in this precinct the republican poll workers were running everything) were simply going to solve every problem by either telling folks to leave or just handing them a provisional. After my rather pointed "discussions" with the poll workers where I showed them in their own manual that they were violating the correct procedure, they got their minds right and we didn't have any problems for the rest of the day. Definitely time well spent.