How many of you veterans think Powell is a war criminal??

[cliffordu]

[woofless]

1. I do.

[Occam Bandage]

2. I'd think anyone who ever actually learned about war crimes

would think calling Powell a "war criminal" was at best mistaken.

[Ian David]

I don't care if he's a war criminal. He's committed Treason, Fraud and Douchebaggery. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

40. No, I doubt it, yes.

[Butch350]

99. Oh my God...haven't we all.

[cliffordu]

3. Yep, me too....I think folks don't know the real meaning of some words...

[grantcart]

65. oh now we have to actually know the meaning of incendiary words before we use them great

[cliffordu]

67. All except for you, you sweet spellchecker, you....

'incidiary'


:rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Huh? We hung Germans and Japanese for starting wars of aggression.

We called that act the ultimate war crime. I'm sorry, but were you under the impression that Iraq attacked us?

[cliffordu]

37. Untrue. if it were true, every general in the japanese and German high command

would have been hung and they werent

And neither were their secretaries of state.

[billyoc]

57. You're right, they weren't. I lean toward his being a war criminal because of his U.N. performance.

I'm not a military lawyer, though. I don't really know how to determine which leaders are the most responsible.

I just see them expanding Arlington while the champagne flows.

[cliffordu]

66. I think about Goebbels, and Pol Pot and Idi Amin

and I just don't see Powell in the same league....

I have to say he almost convinced me that there were WMD's in Iraq.....

Here's what I think happened.

The white house knew Powell was a boy scout and wanted a peaceful solution -

Cheney gave him the vial of anthrax about the same time he was guaranteeing to the congresscritters the validity of the wmd claim. Cheney could have cared less that he was flushing Powells' 40 year career down the toilet.

That little intel report the Brits supplied to the White house was the proof that Powell needed to suspend disbelief.

I think the whole point of the vial, the intel report timing was for Powells benefit.

He was secretary of state and was GONE from washington for months up to the selling of the war trying to get the coalition of the gullable on board.....

Cheney. It was all Cheney.

As a retired military man known world wide to NOT be a war monger, he was a perfect stooge for the job at the UN....

[billyoc]

72. Alright, you know what, fuck it. Innocent until proven guilty.

I shot my mouth off too much today.

I was more mad at Powell than any of the others for so long, because I BELIEVED Powell. All the rest of them, the Cheneys and Feiths and Bushes and Rumsfelds didn't have 5 seconds in uniform between the lot of them. I never believed a word out of any of them, but the old dirt eater Powell?

I believed him, you know?

[cliffordu]

75. Yeah, I did too....

Sad state of affairs that he wound up that way.

Complete FUBAR

[Warren Stupidity]

89. Untrue?

The International Military Tribunal was opened on 18 October 1945, in the Supreme Court Building in Berlin. The first session was presided over by the Soviet judge, Nikitchenko. The prosecution entered indictments against 24 major war criminals and six criminal organizations - the leadership of the Nazi party, the Schutzstaffel (SS) and Sicherheitsdienst (SD), the Gestapo, the Sturmabteilung (SA) and the High Command of the German armed forces (OKW).

The indictments were for:
1. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace

2. Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace

3. War crimes

4. Crimes against humanity

On count 2, waging wars of aggression, Donitz, Frick, Funk, Goring, Hess, Jodl, Keotel, von Neurath, Raeder, Ribbentrop, Rosenberg, Inquart, Streicher were found guilty and many of those listed were executed for their crimes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

Untrue? Please do not accuse me of making false statements without having done any fact checking of your own. I might be wrong in my opinions, but I generally have my facts right.

[demokatgurrl]

91. Please explain...

We hung Germans and Japanese for being traitors to the U.S.???

[cliffordu]

92. No. War crimes.

[Zhade]

29. Lying to help launch an aggressive war against a country that never attacked us IS a war crime.

By definition, you're wrong.

[Occam Bandage]

39. By definition? Really? It doesn't appear in the ICC's definition of "war crime."

Which court's definition are you using?

[medicswife]

4. Veteran's spouse, not a veteran, and our opinion of Powell is

very different from your average American's view of Powell. Most Military people don't follow politics as closely as my hubby and I do, and so they still think Powell is great. His endorsement will mean a lot to them. I've already heard from two of my friends that the endorsement has made them reconsider Obama. If Powell likes him, then he can't really be a terrorist sympathizer. I made no headway with these two over the last couple of months and in the space of ten minutes, Colin Powell has completely opened their minds.

I'm not going to knock that.

[AlCzervik]

7. that's good to hear. My nephew is still in Iraq and i would love to hear what he thinks.

[Ian David]

8. I propose that we get all the Powell-Bashing out of our system by 5 PM EST Monday.

And then we all agree to pretend he's just as awesome as the Republickers always said he was.

Right now, Powell is not a person-- he's a tool.

He's a sharp, pointy stick to prod those who have been carrying water for Powell to now follow him over to Obama.

So, I say fuck Powell the person, but by 5 PM EST Monday, at least pretend to love Powell the Stick.

[Zhade]

30. No. I refuse to go along to get along. I will not sacrifice the truth for political expediency.

If I did, I'd be just like colin powell.

Respectfully, fuck your suggestion.

[Skittles]

59. ZHADE SPEAKS FOR ME

yes INDEED

[Ian David]

90. If you get my suggestion all sticky, then it will stick to all the others in the suggestion box. n/t

[cliffordu]

42. That's right. He will make tens of thousands rethink the Replug propaganda.

[billyoc]

5. Aye. He, of all people, should have known better.

[Skittles]

54. that is the big fucking problem, billyoc

he DID know better - I could see the discomfort in his face - but he went along with it anyways like the good little repuke whore he was because he made the disastrous decision to hitch his star to george w. fucking bush. THAT IS WHAT MAKES WHAT HE DID TRULY UNFORGIVABLE.

[jonnyblitz]

6. I do and I have no interest in engaging in a" back and forth"

with his apologists. I am a navy vet who served on USS Missouri during Operation Desert Storm.

[cliffordu]

9. My other question, that should have been in the OP was:

If you do, then you think he is in the same company as the camp commander at Treblinka, or Buchenwald, right?

[frogcycle]

15. that is absurd

there are various charges and mitigating circumstances in War Crimes just as in civilian law.

Aside from that, I don't presume to know what Powell actually knewvs. suspected and/or turned a blind eye to. I will always resent him for being THE one who was able to convince me that maybe there was something to all these scare stories, and I am certainly open to believing he might have committed acts that are chargeable and convict-able under the Geneva Convention. But probably there are bigger fish to fry. That does NOT mean I equate him to the Nazi camp commanders, nor to the individuals whose war crimes commissions my dad sat on in Guam after WWII.

[Zhade]

31. Read this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq

Fresh evidence emerged last night that Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, was so disturbed about questionable American intelligence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that he assembled a secret team to review the information he was given before he made a crucial speech to the UN security council on February 5.

Mr Powell conducted a full-dress rehearsal of the speech on the eve of the session at his suite in the Waldorf Astoria, his New York base when he is on UN business, according to the authoritative US News and World Report.

Much of the initial information for Mr Powell's speech to the UN was provided by the Pentagon, where Paul Wolfowitz, the US deputy defence secretary, set up a special unit, the Office of Special Plans, to counter the uncertainty of the CIA's intelligence on Iraq.

Mr Powell's team removed dozens of pages of alleged evidence about Iraq's banned weapons and ties to terrorists from a draft of his speech, US News and World Report says today. At one point, he became so angry at the lack of adequate sourcing to intelligence claims that he declared: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit," according to the magazine.

Presented with a script for his speech, Mr Powell suspected that Washington hawks were "cherry picking", the US magazine Newsweek also reports today. Greg Theilmann, a recently retired state department intelligence analyst directly involved in assessing the Iraqi threat, says that inside the Bush administration "there is a lot of sorrow and anger at the way intelligence was misused".

***

There is no question he knew he was being asked to lie.

[Dystopian]

87. Thank you for the link. n/t

peace~

[JohnnyLib2]

10. By the letter of the law, no.

eom

[az chela]

11. We believed him as he was always an honorable man

When I found out he lied I felt like someone stuck a knife in me.I loved that man and because of my beleiving in him thousands of innocent people are dead and I can never forgive him for that.He has blood on his hands that wont wash off

[Catch22Dem]

12. For My Lai or Iraq?

Serious question.

[cliffordu]

14. My lai.

He transferred into the unit some time after the incident......


The whitewash would have happened before he got there, as soon as the bodies were burned or buried or whatever.

[Solon]

24. Doesn't diminish his own responsibility for not reporting the whole truth.

I find all these Powell threads that are defending him particularly atrocious. Mostly because this is a man without any honor, he's in CYA mode, period.

[TheDebbieDee]

13. I think he's a war criminal, for both the Mai Lai incident and

his cartoon show at the UN.

[cliffordu]

18. So along with slobodan milosevic, the commander of Buchenwald and

Goebbels, he should hang??

Edie Amin??

That bad??

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. You are seemingly willfully ignorant.

[TheDebbieDee]

25. Save your name-calling for someone you'll meet in person!

You can believe what they tell you if you want to. And I'll believe what I want as well.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. What would be the fun in that?

Besides in my experience fighting in public can have bad consequences.

David

[cliffordu]

27. Nope. I want to understand the litmus for war criminal here on DU.

Is it the real hands on butcher-of-Treblinka variety or are we lowering the bar to soldiers in general???

Where is the cut off???

[Zhade]

32. Soldiers can, have, and should be tried as war criminals if they've committed war crimes.

We hung Nazis, after all.

Powell knowingly lied us into an aggressive war against a country that never attacked us.

By definition, that's a war crime.

[cliffordu]

35. So how many Dem congresscritters and Rebugs will be lined up to hang???

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. So you know what Top Secret information Colin Powell was given before his appearance at the UN?

Please shed light on how you obtained this information and how you assessed Colin Powell's state of mind.

David

[cliffordu]

49. I think he got punked by Cheney.

We were in a defacto state of war and Cheney hand fed SEVERAL of the senior congresscritters LOADS of bad intel, I don't think he would have thought twice about lying to Powell.

Remember that Powell wasn't in the Pentagon during this whole time - he was shuttling back and forth between Europe and asia trying to form a 'coalition of the naieve'.....


How could a sitting secretary of state walk out over a 'bad feeling' about the intel???

He would have been called a coward. As it turns out maybe staying made him one, but I don;t know if I'd have had the guts to act differently.

Lots of people were scared at that point.

[teknomanzer]

78. He got punked by Tenet

Powell suspected the intelligence was unreliable - he specifically asked George Tenet, who he implicitly trusted, if the items he kept in the UN report were backed up by solid intelligence. Tenet assured him that it was. Powell took him at his word. Tenet was all to eager to remain a player on the Bush team and disregarded the fact that Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the Neo-cons were manufacturing intelligence. The Office of Special Plans created by Wolfowitz and Fieth was given the task 'find' intelligence that Tenet's CIA wasn't finding. The OSP got their intelligence from the Iraqi National Congress - an outfit of hacks and con artists if ever there was one - just look at Chalabi. Tenet wanted to stay relevant and gave credence to absurd intelligence that made its way to Powell's UN report. This intelligence essentially came from OSP. The real ass is Tenet... Powell was marginalized in the Bush administration from day one. However, Powell should have been smart enough to see just exactly what his real purpose in the administration was - to be a tool that lends credibility to harebrained schemes of the Neo-cons. I think Powell was self deluded as to his importance - his ego would not allow him to accept that in this case he really was a 'token.'

[cliffordu]

80. YES!!!

That is EXACTLY the piece I had forgotten, but buzzed around the back of my head.... -

George Fucking Tenet.....

I think you are EXACTLY right about Powell and his Ego...

Almost worse than if he'd known and willfully lied.

[teknomanzer]

85. Powell's ego is really the key to the whole question...

The majority of people on this board hate Powell because they think he was complicit in the lies, and if you accept a superficial view of the situation then that would have to be the case. The haters (god bless 'em - they can be raving maniacs - ***just kidding***) have not taken into account the complexities of the relationships between the major figures in the Bush administration. These people in the administration were political giants, each with his own king sized ego, each believing that they should have the ear of the president and steer the boy king's decisions. But we all know that no one, no body, no how, was going to have the last word except Dick Cheney.


Why would a guy as smart as Powell be duped into testifying complete bullshit before the entire world?

Because Powell thought he was too important a figure to be used like a fucking tool. That is why he readily accepted Tenet's assurances. If Powell wasn't so convinced of his importance he would have recognized how he was being played.

I think he knows now, but in the world of politics you don't have the freedom to call out people for being assholes without some serious blow back. (Otherwise, Obama might have called out McCain and Palin by now.) The polite thing to do in politics is to say how much you respect so and so and support someone else. That is how the game is played.

[defendandprotect]

16. War Criminal ... Iraq, My Lai . . . and one of the African nations/? Coup?

[Skittles]

17. LOL

aiding and abetting the invasion, bombing, destruction of a country for no fucking reason is about as bad a war criminal can get

[Zhade]

33. I can't believe people are suggesting otherwise. This country truly is brainwashed.

NT!

[Skittles]

52. it is truly fucked up to see on a Democratic board

we need to "just get over it", Zhade. Fuck them all. :puke:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. If Obama allows the military to make any offensive action after he takes office he's a war criminal?

That's what you are saying.

David

[boppers]

48. "Pre-emptive" war is a crime.

Perhaps you missed that little tidbit.

It's much the fodder of legal cases, but basically, you cannot attack another nation on the grounds of "I thought they might attack me someday".

If Obama started a war with a nation that was not offensively attacking inside the borders of the US, or our allies, yes, he'd be a criminal too.

That's law.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

103. Let's try this again.

If Obama allows offensive action in a war that waS started pre-emptively isn't he continuing a criminal action according to your thinking?

David

[Skittles]

53. your black and white thinking reminds me of a fucking repuke

that's certainly what I am thinking

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. That's some funny stuff, pot meet kettle.

[Zhade]

61. I do believe I saw the words "for no fucking reason" in that post.

You know, an unprovoked war of aggression.

Like powell helped lie us into.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. He would be continuing a "unprovoked war of aggression".

That we lied our way in to.

David

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. Powell is an accomplice to promoting an aggressive war

The charge that the U.S. attack on Iraq was a war crime was raised even before the war began. More than 1,000 law professors and U.S. legal institutions organized in opposition to the U.S. war crime of launching an “aggressive war in violation of the UN Charter” against Iraq.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/2970


He has been named by international organizations as a person that is an accessory to the fact
Every person who conspires or attempts to commit, is an accessory after the fact in relation to, or counsels in relation to, an offense is guilty of an indictable offense.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-45.9/bo-ga:s_1::bo-ga:s_2/20080516?command=HOME&caller=SI&fragment=Crimes%20Against%20Humanity%20and%20War%20Crimes%20Act&search_type=all&day=16&month=5&year=2008&search_domain=cs&showall=L&statuteyear=all&lengthannual=50&length=50&page=2


He's not one the ones that need to be brought to justice, he is an accessory to the real criminals.
I think historians for many years will discuss his role but will never truly vindicate him.

[olegramps]

83. Thanks for the information

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Not this veteran.

[TexasObserver]

23. Nope. Ain't buying it.

The problem here is simple. We have some members who think anyone who is in the military and kills in that job is a war criminal.

[Zhade]

34. And then we have those like you who offer apologia for war crimes.

NT!

[cynatnite]

38. Where did you read that?

:wtf:

[TexasObserver]

76. Nope. Just have a lot more sense than you about matters like this.

It's an election. Powell is a good endorsement. And unlike you, I don't see the world as evil versus good in all things.

[cliffordu]

36. Yep. that's exactly the point I'm trying to get to.

The hatred is palpable here. I am distressed but not surprised.

[TexasObserver]

79. Hey, it's got a real benefit.

I like it when people practically jump onto my ignore list. Too many posts to read, anyway, so thinning the herd of the trash is always a good idea.

[cliffordu]

81. Yep - I might have to put a few of the more hysterical on the "special" list....

heh.....

[Skittles]

55. WRONG WRONG FUCKING DEAD WRONG

I think Colin Powell is a piece of fucking SHIT and I am a veteran

[TexasObserver]

77. Hyperventilate much?

All that rage. All that anger.

If you're over 12 years old, you need to get a handle on that. If you're 12 or under, you'll outgrow it.

As for Colin Powell, I really don't care what you think about him.

[cynatnite]

26. This vet disagrees. n/t

[Zhade]

28. A better wording would be "acknowledge".

powell knowingly and willfully lied to the U.N. to help launch an illegal aggressive war against a country that never attacked us.

That is, by definition, a war crime.

That single act of lying helped kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis - also a war crime.

He is, without question, one of a group of unrepentant war criminals.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq

Fresh evidence emerged last night that Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, was so disturbed about questionable American intelligence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that he assembled a secret team to review the information he was given before he made a crucial speech to the UN security council on February 5.

Mr Powell conducted a full-dress rehearsal of the speech on the eve of the session at his suite in the Waldorf Astoria, his New York base when he is on UN business, according to the authoritative US News and World Report.

Much of the initial information for Mr Powell's speech to the UN was provided by the Pentagon, where Paul Wolfowitz, the US deputy defence secretary, set up a special unit, the Office of Special Plans, to counter the uncertainty of the CIA's intelligence on Iraq.

Mr Powell's team removed dozens of pages of alleged evidence about Iraq's banned weapons and ties to terrorists from a draft of his speech, US News and World Report says today. At one point, he became so angry at the lack of adequate sourcing to intelligence claims that he declared: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit," according to the magazine.

Presented with a script for his speech, Mr Powell suspected that Washington hawks were "cherry picking", the US magazine Newsweek also reports today. Greg Theilmann, a recently retired state department intelligence analyst directly involved in assessing the Iraqi threat, says that inside the Bush administration "there is a lot of sorrow and anger at the way intelligence was misused".

[cliffordu]

41. Sigh. I think you need to look at previous case law concerning SECRETARIES OF STATE

and war crimes tribunals.

Specially when it comes to execution of the same.

I guess Tony Blair, lapdog to the bushies get the noose too.

[Zhade]

62. He should be prosecuted according to British law, yes.

For the record - and I've already said this more than once, so please LISTEN this time - I do not support the death penalty.

[cliffordu]

82. For war criminals, I do. Hang them at the Hague.

[boppers]

45. Are you asking veterans, most likely *not* lawyers, to parse and apply the law?

Isn't that a bit like asking butchers how laws should be applied about animal cruelty?

When you have veterans who *are* lawyers, well, then it's a more interesting opinion.

Otherwise, to use your insta-Godwin, you might as well have been asking Nazi's if their own leaders had committed war crimes.

[cliffordu]

50. Well....

We aren't in court, are we?

I'm asking for opinion from people who put the uniform on....as I did.

Butchers? Animal cruelty?

I've butchered animals and I've seen animal cruelty and fully understand the difference.

I also understand the difference between what Powell and Goebbels did, even if, as per your implication, I am a Nazi also- after all, if Powell is a war criminal like Goebbels was, I am by extension. Right???

[boppers]

56. I'm part of the militia. We all are.

That's one of our obligations as citizens.

Seeing as how we haven't had a ground war to fight in our country in at least a century, I haven't been asked to serve just yet.

As far as butchers and animal cruelty, I've done my fair share of animal killing, and know from experience that there are are kind, and cruel, ways of killing, and having credentials as 'one who has been trained to kill' does not qualify a person to decide whether or not their, or others, methods were proper, just, or legal.

As far as your assertion that *all* soldiers are war criminals, if they have served under a war criminal, I think that's faulty logic. I have no doubt that the US committed war crimes in the past 7 years, as we have already convicted more than a few US soldiers for this.

Let me repeat that: We have *already* convicted US soldiers for committing war crimes.

The question is not whether or not the US has war criminals, but who they are.

The question at hand is whether or not a man who was in control of a military that anally raped men, that bludgeoned men to death, that slaughtered whole families for the crime of driving too fast, that paraded prisoners around for propaganda, that held men in torture centers for years, that seized private land for their own use, that used weaponry and tactics to terrorize civilians, rather than the military and the militia, that tortured and spied upon American civilians... should he should bear some responsibility for the actions performed under his direction?

Conversely, should a person who's MOS was driving around, and fixing relay antennas, be held liable for their peers who were raping and molesting children?

The answer, I think, is to realize that not all soldiers, and their actions, are equal, and that 'closing ranks' mean that the good apples get ruined by the bad ones. Of course, if the good apples *want* to stick up for the bad ones, and stay in the same bin, well... that's cause and effect.

If the military doesn't want to be perceived as a negative force, they have to start rejecting and removing the folks who cause that perception.

[cliffordu]

68. Ya really ought to re-read the last two posts in this little diversion.

[boppers]

71. not getting your point.

Asking the radio operators if Goebbels was bad doesn't make his actions less criminal.

Do you think that somehow, American troops aren't doing bad things, or that their commanders aren't ordering them to do bad things?

Criminals are criminals, no matter what flag they hide behind.

[TexasObserver]

86. I overrule your objection.

I assume you're representing yourself pro se.

This is a message board, not an international court.

The poster can pose any question he can form, and he asked a personal opinion question. He didn't ask for a legal opinion. Even if someone gave a legal definition of war crimes, the issue is not the definition, but of its applicability to Powell and his actions. Those are what we call FACT QUESTIONS, and they cannot be determined legally until a trier of fact hears competent evidence in a court of law, and properly determines whether the actions constitute war crimes.

Your objection is overruled because it is irrelevant.



Long time attorney, and even longer time veteran. Happy now?

[cliffordu]

93. I am. I'm wit' choo.

[TexasObserver]

104. You asked a simple question of fellow vets.

And almost all vets agree with your point of view.

The truth is some poster despise soldiers.

As Rudyard Kipling said

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

[boppers]

105. Heya, thanks TO!

Now I'm going to go read everything you wrote on the topic. Should be interesting.

..and Yes, having a veteran, who is also an attorney, post their opinions, makes me very happy.

[IndianaGreen]

47. He was part of the cover-up of the My Lai Massacre

As to being a war criminal, looks like he was lied to about WMDs just like most people, including a significant number of DUers.

One thing about Powell, his war doctrine that became known as the Powell Doctrine turned out to be correct.

[cliffordu]

51. He was part of the cover up after the fact....I'm not sure about the letter he was

sent to investigate - whether it was the one that didn't list precisely where My lai happened, or whether it was the later, more specific one that the Nixon administration recieved.....

I know what the Wickipedia says, but I've read conflicting information elswhere.

When stupid shit happened on ANY level, NONE of us talked to battalion level officers about anything.


It's just the culture - leave the brass out of as much as possible cause they fuck everything up. Everything.

[burrowowl]

58. I do

he should have resigned before giving that specious speech at the UN, and then there is My Lai ...

[TahitiNut]

60. I don't know. He has some degree of culpability ...

... but I don't know the degree to which he bought into the crap he was peddling. I have no doubt that Cheney and Bush are war criminals.

Insofar as My Lai ... and his alleged role in covering up ... I doubt it. The Americal was FUBAR at the command level. He was a mid-grade (O5?) officer newly-arrived in-country on his second tour at the time. Any 'investigation' he may have performed would have been limited and directed to those already 'debriefed' and he could have been stooged by the flag brass in the Americal and brigade brass in the 11th.

I wrote this today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4268661&mesg_id=4268976

[Zhade]

63. Allow me to help clear up any doubt - he knew full well he was being asked to lie.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq

Fresh evidence emerged last night that Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, was so disturbed about questionable American intelligence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that he assembled a secret team to review the information he was given before he made a crucial speech to the UN security council on February 5.

Mr Powell conducted a full-dress rehearsal of the speech on the eve of the session at his suite in the Waldorf Astoria, his New York base when he is on UN business, according to the authoritative US News and World Report.

Much of the initial information for Mr Powell's speech to the UN was provided by the Pentagon, where Paul Wolfowitz, the US deputy defence secretary, set up a special unit, the Office of Special Plans, to counter the uncertainty of the CIA's intelligence on Iraq.

Mr Powell's team removed dozens of pages of alleged evidence about Iraq's banned weapons and ties to terrorists from a draft of his speech, US News and World Report says today. At one point, he became so angry at the lack of adequate sourcing to intelligence claims that he declared: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit," according to the magazine.

Presented with a script for his speech, Mr Powell suspected that Washington hawks were "cherry picking", the US magazine Newsweek also reports today. Greg Theilmann, a recently retired state department intelligence analyst directly involved in assessing the Iraqi threat, says that inside the Bush administration "there is a lot of sorrow and anger at the way intelligence was misused".

[TahitiNut]

64. That doesn't clear up a damned thing. (I didn't know you were a veteran.)

:shrug:

[cliffordu]

74. And his little team was being fed complete shit by Wolfowitz and Cheney.....

How isolated was Powell in the months before this when he was running all over the globe trying to shore up support for the coalition of the gullable....?

They sold the IWR to congress BEFORE he went to the UN didn't they?

That was Cheney and his vial of anthrax who sold the entire lie to the entire fucking CONGRESS.

Powell was just the period at the end of the sentence.


This country was hysterical at that point. Bush said it..."With us or against us."

The only players who had a real agenda were the NEOCONS....And until a couple of weeks before his speech, wasn't Powell out of town/out of the loop trying for more sanctions instead of war?


If I remember this incorrectly, let me know.....

[olegramps]

84. Your article is impressive but I found the last line to be a surprise:

In the last line of the article John McCain appeared to justify the war even if there was ample evidence to question the validity of the invasion. I have also noted in this discussion that the PNAC neo-cons who dominated this administration were determined to invade long before they gained power with the election of Bush, their little puppet. Powell was associated with these people and their nitwit plans to democratize the Middle East. As, Richard Clarke stated when he came to a meeting following 9/11 he was shocked to see that Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld were going to use it as their "Pearl Harbor" to invade Iraq.

[cliffordu]

70. That post you have linked is EXACTLY right. It should be it's own OP>

thanks for that, TahitiNut...

:patriot:

[TahitiNut]

73. Thanks, bro. It's probably too nuanced for the B&W keyboard kommandos of DU.

There doesn't seem to be much comprehension of the complexity of such situations around DU ... especially combat zone crapola. I'll be forever thankful I wasn't a grunt doing LRRPs ... but close enough to learn. Painfully so. Air farce flyboys and off-shore sailors typically don't get it either.

[Jed Dilligan]

69. There were probably decisions he deliberately made in the '91 war

that resulted in more civilian deaths than other decisions. I mean, that country was bombed to pieces for no reason--we could have got them out of Kuwait without dropping one bomb on Iraq. "War crimes" or not he caused a lot of needless slaughter then.

For the technical war crime-ness of his complicity in selling the WMD's I'll have to take a pass because I'm no lawyer and it seems like a grey area.

[GalleryGod]

88. I Fought with CP. He's OK in my book.

:shrug:

[cliffordu]

95. That's the voice I wanted to hear. Thanks.

[DevonRex]

94. I don't know. I need more facts. nt

[mkultra]

96. I dont, hes a victim like many others

He trusted in the republican line of thinking until he learned the truth first hand.

He was a decent man who trusted in the wrong people.


That is all

[Hippo_Tron]

97. People are only prosecuted for war crimes when their country is conquered or they surrender

This debate over whether or not Powell is a war criminal is more or less pointless because at the end of the day nobody from the United States will ever see the inside of The Hague until somebody replaces us as the dominant military power.

War crimes tribunals are a means by which the United States and its allies punish their enemies. Now I'm not saying that these enemies don't deserve it. But some people on this board are living in a fantasy world where it can actually go the other way around. International criminal law doesn't apply to the United States or its citizens because nobody has the power to force the United States to do anything. The system is simply not designed to bring the likes of Bush and Cheney to justice no matter what they do. The sooner we accept that this is the status quo the sooner we can talk about fixing it in the long run.

[Orsino]

98. Yes.

Legal definitions may be too narrow to convict Powell, but that's what I call him. */Cheney might not have gotten their war so soon--perhaps not even at all--without Powell's assistance. I've heard the rumors that he was dragged unwillingly along, but he seemed comfortable enough at the time, and has never shown a trace of remorse.

I can only hope that it disturbs his sleep, sometimes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. How many hairdressers think he's a war criminal?

How about roofers?

Insurance actuaries?