Political correctness is the downfall of many liberals.

[renie408]

If you get stuck on the words used to express an idea rather than listening to the idea itself, that isn't really helping anything. If someone is thinking 'bitch' in their head and writing 'woman', you haven't changed anything. If my husband came home and said, "I am going to kill you, woman." and proceeded to beat the shit out of me; I would not be thinking to myself, "Well, this is much better. At least he didn't call me a bitch."

The word 'bitch' does not make someone turn to spousal abuse. Using the word 'bitch' does not make someone a misogynist. Insensitive? Ok, I can go with that. Stupid? Certainly if you use the word 'bitch' on a liberal message board (seriously, you are just asking for it). But I have to think it is counterproductive to get hung up on the word 'bitch' in a post and to completely ignore the fundamentalist conservative woman who is far and away worse for women that it was used to describe.

Sanitizing our language of unfortunate epithets will not change anything. The word 'nigger' is not commonly used these days because racism is starting to be understood to be wrong. There is still a long way to go there. It isn't like the word 'nigger' became taboo and that solved racism. I would be willing to bet that you could eradicate the word 'bitch' from the English language and women would still get abused, would still be paid less than men and would still hit that glass ceiling.

So, why don't we go after that...ummm...unlikeable female Republican from Minnesota and stop beating up good people over the use of single word?

BTW...I just noticed the 'Ben Affleck is a dick head' thread. Where is the outrage over that anti-male phrase?

[Tallison]

1. 'Political correctness' is a RW, not progressive, conceit

and I have yet to hear an agenda-free definition of the expression. As a progressive, I'm a stickler for semantic precision and familiarity with the cultural baggage of words. If language weren't powerful, the right to free speech wouldn't be so precious. I ultimately don't refer to Bachmann and her ilk as 'bitches' because I'm more articulate and my points more substantive than those of her rank.

[renie408]

4. Language represents ideas.

And while I tend to agree that words are important, they are only as important as they ideas they represent.

Out of curiosity, what do you think your being a 'stickler for semantic precision' and your being 'familiar with the cultural baggage of words' has done to promote your progressive cause? Are you a better or more effective progressive than one that, say, uses the word 'bitch' or refers to their friends as their 'niggahs'? Has your semantic precision forwarded your progressive cause? Are you a better, more effective progressive than Chris Rock? Bill Maher? Would they be more effective if they sanitized their language? Or is it, maybe, that the ideas they espouse are more important than the exact words they use to espouse them?

Is it more important to make a statement about the use of a word than to address the subject the word was used in describing? Especially when the subject is a neo-conservative whack job who likely does more real damage to women than the use of the word 'bitch'?

BTW...I used the phrase 'political correctness' in an attempt to draw attention to my thread. I honestly think it is important to move past worrying about the words people use and to address the ideas expressed.

[Tallison]

6. You can't generalize about specific words, only words in context

Do I think I'm a better or more effective progressive than someone who uses the term 'bitch'? Sorry, I can't answer that without divine insight into every self-proclaimed progressive's inventory. People with the rhetorical talent of Rock, and less so Maher, get that the effectiveness of words entirely dependent on context. Less talented people who resort to inflammatory language as substitute for thoughtful observation, no, aren't doing progressivism any favors. It's something one evaluates on a statement-by-statement basis.

[renie408]

10. That's kind of my point.

The word 'bitch' was used to describe Michele Bachmann during a thread asking how we could go about defeating her in her bid for re-election. It was used against Bachmann, but was a quote of something that had been said about Hillary.While it was an unfortunate choice of words, I thought it was even more unfortunate that the entire thread devolved into basically rapping the OP on the knuckles for using 'bitch'. It seems to me that getting rid of Bachmann trumps semantics in that case.

[Tallison]

21. Well, I'd have to refer to the post in question to evaluate it

If some deemed it a low blow, no doubt it was by context and/or the poster's history. If you're going to use loaded and inflammatory words like that, use them wisely. A sign of a great writer is the ability to break rules and make it work. When ordinary folks try this, a train wreck ensues.

[renie408]

23. But what about intent?

If some deemed it a low blow, couldn't it be that some are hypersensitive?

[Tallison]

26. Sure, intent counts, but it's incumbent on the speaker

to make their intent clear, which is where articulateness comes in, and it's my experience that loaded words tend to obfuscate more than clarify. Hypersensitivity exists, and part of developing skill as a writer is developing a meter for social sensitivity before you can use certain words to rhetorical advantage. It simply takes a lot of life experience and intelligent discretion to use loaded words effectively Sustaining some personal beatings on these very boards helped teach me that.

[Danger Mouse]

2. I'm kind of in the middle here. I think this board goes too far in sanitizing this kind of stuff...

but I do realize the impact that words can have.

[renie408]

5. I don't think words are unimportant.

I think it is silly to get hung up on the words and ignore the ideas.

I have raised my children to understand that they are not what people call them. I believe that. Am I diminished in any way if someone calls me a bitch? No. Do I think women in general are diminished if someone uses that word? No.

And again, I didn't see one comment on the 'Ben Affleck is a dick head" in support of either men or penises. I did see some support for Ben Affleck. "Dick" is a slang term for penises. Should all penises unite against the use of this word? Probably not.

[bettyellen]

7. i see false equivalencies, lack of context- in short, bullshit. and not much thought.

[Tallison]

8. False equivalencies, yep

A common flaw in rhetorical propaganda.

[renie408]

11. We are even, because there is no thought at all in your one line response.

Irony. Look it up.

[bettyellen]

16. on the basis of what i had read, concluded it was completely pointless to engage you.

so i decided only to comment as to why.

[renie408]

20. Really?

Well, I am sorry for that. This is a societal oddity which I find genuinely interesting. I would have appreciated your input.

[Indenturedebtor]

3. Everyone draws a different line somewhere

The same person who would complain about political correctness (or tact and politeness) would doubtless object to his/her grandmother being called an old C---.

In general I think that words that were invented to lable people in a way that is incompatible with progressive values should generally be discouraged here and elsewhere. To use those words is to endorse those concepts.

[Tallison]

9. That's not a bad rule of thumb

unless you possess the rhetorical talent to pull it off in context, which is rare.

[renie408]

14. I guess I am just not sure that 'bitch', in itself, is misogynistic.

Yes, it is used to refer to women or effeminate men negatively. But would it be better to use a generic derogatory epithet? I can't see why. You are still being negative.

Similarly, I can't see the point of typing "f**k" when you mean "fuck". Or "n****r" when you mean "nigger". Everybody knows what you mean, what is the point of the asterisks? It's like my mother spelling 'S-H-I-T', like that makes her more ladylike than just saying it.

[bettyellen]

19. all negative words are equivelent?

[renie408]

22. Sorry, I didn't see where I said that...n/t

[bettyellen]

27. don't see anywhere an acknowledgement that some words are more loaded

than others. it would seam they are all the same to you-u say negative is negative. as if culture and history mean nothing. nothing has context.

[Indenturedebtor]

28. I don't think that "bitch" is misogynistic either

Not any more so than "asshole" is anti-men.

[Lex]

12. "Political Correctness" is RIGHTWING CONSTRUCT so don't be suckered

by it.

[renie408]

18. What do you call it when people castigate others for questionable language?

"Political correctness" was the only thing I could think of to describe getting hung up on semantics over context. Also, to be honest, I thought it would get attention for a subject that I am curious about.

[CreekDog]

13. I would be outraged at the "Ben Affleck is a dick head" thread

if he wasn't a dickhead. :think:

[renie408]

15. Well, there you go.

I can't see why some people went apeshit over calling Michele Bachmann a bitch.

[CreekDog]

17. Thank goodness no irony is lost on you!

:rofl:

[whatchamacallit]

24. Fuck You!

Is that better?:evilgrin:

[IndianaJones]

25. I think its massive hypocrisy myself...just like their counterparts on the far right. nt.