Where do I fit in in this "New" Dem party of Kerry's?.......

[nomaco-10]

I'm still trying to fit in, but I have had to come to the conclusion, that I just don't fit.

I have come to question my participatiion in democracy, because I feel like I am left out of this 2004 election scenario. REMEMBER ME, REMEMBER US, that wanted a shot at the truth in this upcoming election? We're still here, we just lurk and rarely post, and try to remember the glory days. I have seen the posters that I have known for the last three years get slowly put out of their misery, while other posters are still writing away, those that are still here, think they are so "right", and have embraced the mind speak of the Kerry campaign.

I have a question for you all, where should we go? Where would you have us be? We're not the one's voting for Nader, we are just looking for a place to be, or at this late date, trying to figure out where we stand in the dem party, especially around here.

Quit minimizing our status, we're here, and we are way stronger than any of you think. Please try to convince us that we should all still be democrats.

Skinner, please don't delete this, let's get this topic out in the open, once and for all.

[mike_c]

1. right over here, sir-- your Kool-Aid is waiting....

I feel your pain, nomaco-10.

[greatauntoftriplets]

48. I HATE Kool-Aid.

Too damn sweet.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

2. What are you talking about? You didn't say WHY you feel the way you do.

[LoZoccolo]

5. 'chyea that's what I'm saying.

I see a lot of these non-specific "I feel like defecting" posts and wonder how substantial these qualms actually are.

[nomaco-10]

8. Well gee whiz, dbl hobbit username, could it be that I haven't bought into

the Kerry IWR, or could it be that Kerry, as much as he reminds me of the good guy, still makes the scenario that it's Jethro Bodine against Thurtston Howell the IIIrd.

Your'e a devotee of this board, please convince us doubters that still lurk every once in a while, and don't bullshit yourself, there are plenty of us. Please make a good arguement why we should vote for Kerry.

[sangh0]

13. Find your own argument

If you want to be single-issue voter, or base your decision on just a few specific issues, it's a free country. Please excuse the rest of us if we prefer to judge a candidate by his entire record.

I am not going to make room for anybody. If you want a place, and if you want the party to change, you have to get up and make it happen. No one is going to do it for you.

Do you think the party opened it's arms to black politicians? How about environmentalists? The Viet Nam War protestors? Each and every group must fight, and show that it has political support to contribute. In politics, power isn't handed out for sympathy.

[nomaco-10]

37. You exemplify the very reason I have "thought" about ditching the dem part

I would take it back, but it's the truth. sangHO, you just bring out the best in everybody. NOT.

[sangh0]

41. You have to bring out the best in you.

If you won't do it, why would someone else?

[nomaco-10]

38. You're the third or so person that has identified me as a single issue....

VOTER, please in all your wisdom, please tell me what "single issue" voter I am in your scenario. That would be very interesting.

[sangh0]

42. You've only mentioned one issue

and I didn't say you were a single issue voter. I said IF YOU WANTED TO BE a single issue voter...

You do understand "if", dont you?

[LoZoccolo]

50. IWR punishment voter.

That was the only issue you mentioned.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. I don't think you need any convincing from me.

I think you are fully informed and capable of deciding on your own who you shoulf vote for. If your only substantive complaint is Kerry's IWR vote than obviously there is nothing new that can be said on the topic that you probably haven't read before. I never thought Kerry made the right vote and I still don't but that didn't change my conviction that he was the right man for the job. But, hey, just follow your conscience, that's what it's for. If the majority don't agree with you, it's not always a good feeling, I know, I've been in the minority plenty of times. But, also, politics is about finding common ground... sometimes it's the only ground solid enough to stand on...

[LoZoccolo]

16. Supreme Court justices that don't believe in privacy.

There's your issue.

[paulk]

90. Why is it the job of anyone on this board to convince you or any of

the "doubters" to vote for Kerry? No one from DU is going to be in that voting booth with you. You're going to have just one question to ask yourself before you pull that lever - "do I want George Bush to be President for four more years?" It's really that simple.

If you can't convince yourself that the answer to that question is "no", then there's nothing anyone on this board can say that will convince you.

[wyldwolf]

3. You mean your feelings are hurt because Kerry's new (?) dem party...

...doesn't represent you exclusively? It doesn't satisfy all of your wants and needs?

Welcome to politics.

You're only real options are to bow out of the process all together or start your own party where your will is the way.

[Julien Sorel]

4. This post makes no sense.

If you have something to say, spit it out.

[nomaco-10]

12. Billy, Billy, Billy ....

I knew that my thread would never make sense to you, that is the sadness of it and the looming question, "Where do good dems like me belong?

I know you have a reply, just like dblhobbit, but please speak forthright, don't mince words.

[vetwife]

49. None of us will fit anywhere, if we don't get the maniac out..then we can

deal with Kerry. We would be the base. Its politics. We cannot even begin to fathom what this country will look like in 4 more years. There is no choice but to get Bush out. Something else to think about. When Cheney was building that Bunker and disturbing neighbors and I have been a guest at the VP's residence..when Gore was VP...Trust me...it is a long way from anybody..so to disturb neighbors ,,there had to be major blasting. Tells me they are not gonna go easily. What do these maniac war mongers have in mind? You are one of We the People. you have to think for the good of the whole Country. ITs Kerry or Bush Period. You know what you have had with Bush. As far as where you fit....You can't plant a new row of tomatoes when the old ones are still rotting in the rows. Get rid of Bush and then we go from there.

[eridani]

104. Changing the composition at the party starting at the lowest levels

Getting more people who see it your way involved. Registering as many voters as possible. Pushing progressive issues in your precinct and state legislative districts. If you can't get more of your neigbors feeling the way you do, ask yourself what you could do differently. The direction of the presidential campaign is out of your hands.

[KC21304]

6. I didn't know Kerry was starting a " New " Democratic party .

And I thought I was getting all his emails and mailings.

[cheshire]

7. I think what you are saying is if you post you get crap just like you have

on here. Some people are so cruel. I could be wrong.

[Gman]

9. Now is NOT the time for this

don't start this now.

[mzmolly]

10. Hi Nomaco, great to see you! I went to my local fair today and saw

alot of Kerry buttons, all sorts of people all ages, colors, etc... I am encouraged.

I think we will make the party what it is and Kerry and Edwards will hopefully bring the party back closer to it's roots.

I was also encouraged when I called the Kerry campaign and they listened to my suggestions. I even saw what many of us are saying in a press release from the campaign in recent days.

Hope you'll stick around ... :hi: I for one have missed your posts.

As to why you should vote for Kerry, it's an individual decision.

I think he'll obviously not take us into Iran as Bush is preparing to do, he'll actually create jobs, expand health care, provide funding for education etc...

I'm voting for Kerry for my daughter, that's about all I can say.

[nomaco-10]

17. mzmolly, of all the posters I have sifted thru, you were the most hopeful.

I have seen your decline into the abyss. I still support you, but I don't SUPPORT your new logic. You of all people, I think you are the most disappointing to encounter tonight.

I am really shocked, take care my friend.
nomaco

[mzmolly]

19. I guess I have disapointed a few people, along with Howard Dean.

That's ok, I'm a partisan Democrat, who hoped Dean would win, but he didn't and I'm still committed to beating Bush. If that makes me "disapointing" so be it. :shrug:

By the way, I've always been OUT with my ABB-ness, I don't know why people are shocked? I fought like hell for Dean, and I'll fight like hell for Kerry. I am proud to do both, but I can't continue mourning Dean's loss because it's counter productive.

Take care yourself. :)

[nomaco-10]

26. No, my darling, it just made your turn a puzzlement, not a scenario to put

down at this late date. I have no problem with your current political views, I have been just rather suprised as of late.

I guess your quest about ABB, was more fortelling than I ever thought several months ago.

Take care and prosper.

[mzmolly]

33. Like I said, I have no idea why I surprised anyone. I have no idea why

Dean surprised anyone.

The ultimate political goal is to beat Bush, I've been open about that always, so has Howard Dean.

Adding, I'm disapointed in any progressive who isn't working to get Bush the H out of office. I guess we all have our disapointments?

[nomaco-10]

36. You're every post and subsequent support for Kerry is what suprised me the

most. Surely?, you can't think that that was NOT A SUPRISE to alot of people?

You keep to your princibles, and I'll keep searching for the truth in mine.

I will still remember you as an unaffected idealist in the olden days and often wonder what the hell happened to your opptimism.

[mzmolly]

45. I am optimistic that Dean will become head of the DNC and Kerry

will Beat Bush.

I think many former Deaniacs support Kerry as I do, but some have been banned and others are probably "in the closet."

I gotta be me Nomaco, which is why I fought to keep the Deaniacs together, we should all be entitled to be who we are. The group is almost non-existent from what I hear, and full of back door Bush supporters. As I said, that surprises ME.

In a nutshell, Dean has my heart, Kerry has my head.

I still wish Dean were the nominee, of course, ;) but it does me no good to beat that drum day after day, because he's not ... and I have moved on, continuing to support his organization.

I remain optimistic that we will have real change in the future. But for now that change starts with a Bush exit.

In the words of Jim Hightower:

"...now we face the reality of an Administration that is absolutely nutty. There's that old country song, "It felt so good when it stopped hurting." So we've got to stop the pain. But in doing so, we should not fool ourselves that we have gained some progressive victory. What we will have done is to get us back to a ground level where we can build again for a progressive victory that is several years down the road."

http://changein04.com/kerryRecord/qOnKerry.php

Peace

[madfloridian]

101. You think we are?

You seem to keep assuming that my hubby and I are not working for Kerry.

I never post bad things about him, but I am damn tired of being called a loser by fellow Democrats.

[mzmolly]

114. What? Sorry I don't know what your talking about MF?

:shrug:

I was addressing another poster. I know you and yours work for Kerry. I know you support him. Thankfully you haven't endured the "oh your such a disapointment" like I have ... for ALSO supporting him.

Apparently I'm not bitter enough about the Dean loss (several months later) to have my views respected.

[sangh0]

23. You don't have to support anyone's logic

This is not the republican party. We have a big tent, and if you think the party should change, you are welcome to try and change it.

[nomaco-10]

47. Listen up mzmolly, sangho will protect you and attack on your behalf....

is that what you have been reduced to?

Anybody can be attacked by SANGHO, is that really what you want to aspire to?

[sangh0]

52. You are a very sensitive person

if you think being told your welcome to change the party is an attack

[mzmolly]

54. What? I wrangled with sangho all afternoon myself.

;)

And, I don't pay attention to who "defends" me or not.

I don't fit neatly into the *everything Kerry does is ok with me camp* Nomaco, as it appears you assume?

I have plenty of criticism/suggestion for Kerry ...

[sangh0]

59. mzmolly can stand on her own

and I consider her as much a Dem as me.

you should try it sometime

[nomaco-10]

64. I only make an observation on your most current posts......

I'm sorry, I don't do juvenile graemlins.

I still say, I'm sorry for the way you've ended up here, but I still give you a pass, you must have drank tons of kool-aid since May.

[mzmolly]

67. If you were observing my current posts, you'd see that I don't fit ...

into a box.

I am not the imbittered holier than thou Dean supporter, nor am I the pie in the sky Kerry fan.

I am somewhere in between. I resent your characterization that because I support the anti-Bush I drank koolaid? It's as bad as being called a Dean follower vs. supporter. I have a mind of my own Nomaco.

I can allow you and I to disagree without getting personal, shame you can't do the same.

The way I've ended up? I've ended up ABB, which is where I began.

Same as Howard Dean.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

72. .

.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

77. I alerted the post in question

If that's what your talking about.

No offense, but I don't like gossiping about anyone within a thread personally.

[seaglass]

55. It's sad when someone has seen the light while you're still

stumbling around in the dark, isn't it?

[progressivebydesign]

43. In Tacoma, Washington today.. they lined the streetcorners!

There were so many Kerry supporters out today around the mall area. They were on every street corner for miles! Smiling! Waving! And people were responding!! I waved at each and every one of them! It was heartening...

[sadiesworld]

11. I don't know what your particular issue(s) of concern are...

but I, for one, will be loaded for bear on 11/3 regarding trade/outsourcing, the theft of our SS, the destruction of the social safety nets, universal healthcare and the Iraq War.

I don't consider Kerry's election the end-all-be-all of ANYTHING, but maybe it is a beginning. We don't have a chance under *.

[PassingFair]

27. Don't wait til 11/3...

the election's on 11/2

[Kanary]

32. Yours is the most hopeful post I've read since the primaries

You're the first one I've actually "heard" say they will fight for the safety net.

I thank you for that.

You are a rarity here.

:toast:

Kanary

[noamnety]

14. The new party platform

I'm pretty new on the site, and I will admit to engaging in some Kerry love. The platform appears to be:

The environment is being abused, we can't allow this to go on.
Civil rights are being abused, we can't allow this to go on.
Women's rights, the right to chose, too important to let them slide.
Workers deserve a living wage.
People have a right to health care.
Imperialism is bad, diplomacy is good.
This should be a government by, for, of the people, not the corporations.


What was the platform of the old party?

[Dob Bole]

18. You don't have to fit in....it's an issue of common enemies...

I'm torn as to whether I fit in the Democratic Party too, with its "neoliberalism." But I am supporting Kerry because the Democrats and people like us have a common enemy this year, and we need to band together to save our country from this madness.

[0rganism]

20. Get ACTIVE! Volunteer for the Kerry campaign and you will see that you fit

I was grumpy about Kerry winning the primaries at first, too. But dammit, I forced myself to go down to Kerry HQ to help out. And I saw people there who are a lot like me. I saw Kucinich supporters and Dean supporters and Edwards supporters and college students and senior citizens and veterans and parents and children and immigrants and farmers and rich people and poor people and carpenters and computer programmers and people of all races and ethnicities and Christians and Jews and Moslems and atheists and everyone in between.

If you can't find a place to fit in this diverse bunch, I pity your iconoclastic life. Pull up a chair at the table and make yourself at home. John Kerry is a big enough man to tolerate dissent from within his party as well as from those outside it.

[nomaco-10]

21. This is great, and I know SKINNER will not delete this post......

because this discussion must take place and is long over due. It's too long in coming and I am more than sure that this convosation has to take place.
GOOD FOR YOU SKINNER.

Let us get this out in the open once and for all.

[PassingFair]

29. Three word, Nomaco

Democracy for America.
Find a chapter and get to work.

[BillZBubb]

22. So, it's all about you?

I take it you have problems with the IWR vote. Hell, so do I. Kerry was wrong. Every comment he's made about since then hasn't made me happy either. That's a big negative.

But, you know what? That's too bad. He did it, it's done.

We are now required to think about the future. If you think Kerry would be as bad a president as Bush* surely would continue to be, then don't vote for him. It's that simple.

If you think Kerry would be a better president, even if it's only marginally better in your estimation, wouldn't it still be the right thing to do to vote for him? You do care about this country I'm sure.

[nomaco-10]

39. NO! The whole point of my post would be that we could discuss this in a

rational and productive way. So, how did I know that this would not happen with you? Think about it!!!!

[lakemonster11]

108. IWR vote and John Kerry

If it makes anyone feel better, my dad told me that he saw Kerry speak in person just before the IWR vote. Apparently, when someone from the audience asked him how he would vote, he said that he was planning to vote yes, but that he was worried that Bush would abuse the power it would give him---that he would take the country to war, not as a last resort with the help of the UN, but through unilateral action.

So, although I disagree with Kerry's vote (particularly in retrospect), I can't argue that he made his decision blindly or claim that he supported the war as Bush executed it and then "flip-flopped" when he saw which way the wind was blowing. John Kerry believes in diplomacy and understands the importance of allies. He's not a full-time pacifist (and neither am I), but he's certainly not the warmonger that so many people try to make him out to be.

I was a Deaniac, and, sure, part of me wishes that Dean were our candidate, but I have a lot of respect for John Kerry and I think that he is in no way just a "lesser of two evils."

I want Bush out of the White House, and in that way I suppose I'm in the Anybody But Bush camp, but that doesn't mean that I hold Kerry in contempt.

John Kerry is a good candidate and I like him and his family. I agree with him on a wide range of issues (though not on every issue). I understand that he cannot give outspoken support to every liberal ideal I hold dear for fear of alienating blocs of voters. That doesn't change the fact that he is a good, thoughtful man, who, if we can just get him into the White House, will at least have a shot at undoing some of the damage George W. Bush has done in the last four years.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

61. I am a democrat

I agree with the original poster, I belong here. Read the rules.

[nomaco-10]

71. You sound like GW, ""you're with us or against us". Think about it. NT

[stepnw1f]

25. I bBelieve In Taking Every Possible Action To Dump Bush

He is a fanatical fascist puppet who will surely dump us into WWIII if we don't get Kerry elected. With Kerry we have a solid chance at peace. With Bush you have Death. Plain and simple.

[JI7]

28. i really don't care

[Rabelais]

30. you are asking people to comprehend how fragile the unity is

good luck.

[nomaco-10]

31. This post is positive PLUS as far as I'm concerned...The very fact that..

the mods and Skinner let it stand is more than I could have ever hoped for. DEMOCRACY is alive and well at du.

this post was edited for grammer not for content.

[seabeyond]

34. i dont know where you fit in, and i dont know what the new

democrat is.

i am not really a democrat, not a republican, not really anything. so i dont nuch make the old democrat or the new democrat. i do know i dont want bush to be president. and i do know that i am excited to see what kerry can do as a president. i like the core of who kerry is, as far as a human being. i know he is smart and when looking at an issue looks all different directions, willing to be creative in finding a solution. it appears as if he has integrity.

it isnt hard for me to vote for kerry

[indie_voter]

35. you shouldn't try to "fit"

This particular election isn't about the two party system.

I belong to neither party.

Most on-line "tests" I've taken pegs me as a left leaning libertarian. What this means, I don't know..

Kerry wasn't my first choice, Clark was.

Regardless, we have a choice between two men. Bush or Kerry.

The question is, imho, if you vote against Kerry, what do you get?

Bush.

Then what?

Kerry is the far better alternative. MHO!

[progressivebydesign]

40. Kerry is a good, decent, man.

I would trust him with my life. THAT is what I want in a leader. The Democratic Party is something we all shape as we go along. Did anyone ever believe that someone like Howard Dean would change the country? He did. He changed the Democrats, too. Remember when the DNC was afraid to utter criticism of the war? One firebrand like Howard Dean changed that. Other candidates were solidly anti-war, but none put it in your face the way Dean did. I mention Dean because HE embodies what can change in the Democratic Party, if we stay in the game.

You cannot change the world from the sidelines. If you don't see your issues being addressed, stay in the game... and work harder.

I don't expect the Democratic Party, or ANY Party to fit my ever need and concern.. there are millions of people that make up the Democratic Party, how could I expect that they all think the way I do?

I'm solidly behind Kerry, after being a Deaniac, because I learned more about Kerry when the time came to decide whether to simply vote my ticket, or work to put Kerry in the White House. Kerry surprised me. I let the primary candidates define him for me, and I was wrong. I love being a Democrat, and what it stands for, and what it always WILL stand for.. the people.

[searchingforlight]

44. Kerry is the bridge to where we want to be.

We have to be realistic here. There is no one running who has a chance of beating this cancer in our country right now but Kerry. He is the only game in town.

I don't agree with him on many of the issues. I am much more liberal than he is but I know that the kind of candidate I want is not the candidate that would win right now.

Once Kerry is in we cannot stop. We have to get interested and involved in the local community politics. We have to do the same thing that the conservatives did. It will take ten years or more but we must strategize and push them back.

We have the world order on our side. As the world becomes smaller, other counries and peoples will demand that we not be such a hungry giant. The things that we see as necessary will come because they are the only answer.

[Rowdyboy]

46. Are you pro-Bush or anti-Bush? Those are the two parties...Choose

You'll either vote for Bush, Kerry, Nader, or stay home. Those are your only options. Who cares where you fit in? It will take over 52 million voters to elect the next president....If you still need convincing at this late date, with four supreme court seats and the future of our country at stake, you really are in the wrong place.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[searchingforlight]

57. I don't think that is what he is saying.

What are your options? Are you just throwing this out for the sake of arguement? \

Considering what you have stated as your position, you must be leaning toward a choice - vote for Bush? vote for Kerry? vote for Nader? don't vote? Which one is it?

[asjr]

62. That is a dumb statement!

I am voting for America. That means Kerry. You will have to define what you want yourself. This is the craziest thread I have seen yet. We are patriots here and we want our country back. It is that simple.

[Rowdyboy]

75. Indeed, you are either for the election of Bush or against the election

of Bush. What other outcomes do you anticipate? Its not "simpleminded", its painfully obvious. Do you support four more years of George Bush or not. Hard as it may be to believe, 98% of the people here share the simple, all-important goal of removing Bush and restoring democracy.

Do you?

[nomaco-10]

80. Good lord, another "Your'e with us or you're against us" post....

Please try to be more original. That has so been done.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fovea]

79. You cannot escape the fact

that this is a winner take all executive branch.
Bush will either win, or he will be reselected.
The key is what happens after that. If it is close, I predict
insurrection. We will leave the war on terrah in exactly that Russia left WWI.

Progressives had the compelling message, but not the apparatus to effect change this election cycle.


But I would like to say that
we are running John Kerry/Edwards, and not Edwards/Kucinich, which was by far the best matchup to run against George. We would have burned the Rove machine out with that, and the debates would have looked like a 14 rounder between Muhammed Ali, and Karl Rove.

For Goddess' sake, let's let Edwards have his own front of attack. Let's call it Cheney, for want of a better term.
Cheney is not only the co-president, and as such hard to jettison. But he is being currently investigated all over the world. Let's hear the trial lawyer do his stuff on Dirty Dick.

Let's hear Wes vamp on Rummy and PNAC regional strategy, and its fatal flaws. Let's hear about the backdoor draft send that message out on MTV.

And while we are at it, will Mr. Soros please buy a few AAR stations in battleground and even Red state markets. St. Louis, KC, Austin, Wichita,Des Moines, Omaha, Springfield IL, Louisville, Cleveland OH, Cheyenne WY. you get the idea.

There is time to make a big difference yet. But the money and the fight must progress steadily from here. It can't be even close. It has to be a stomp to keep it un-assailable. Otherwise it will be 2000 on steriods.

In the 20's and 30's folks were shot at Kansas City polling places.
I fully expect that to happen in Florida this year. If it is close, they will try to steal it-- and that will precipitate the Second American Civil war. So Let's Not.

[TheRovingGourmet]

73. You forgot Badnarak and LaRousch. :)

[Proud liberal Kat]

53. I am going to give this a shot without reading all the posts

Unfortunately the reality that those who are not in favor of Kerry but hate Bush at this point in time is one or the other. Your options are to drop out, pick one or the other, or go for the third party. That is it. We can't make up another option, nor make the Kerry option into one it isn't.

It is up to you to determine where you fit into those. I won't make up a batch of Kool-Aid to make Kerry seem to be something he isn't for anyone, I hate when BUSHCO does it and I like to think I am better than that. He doesn't embody in his campaign or politics the totally progressive side of the Democratic party, perhaps it is because he really doesn't, perhaps it is because it is because it is what he feels he needs to be to win. None of us will ever really know until he has a chance to show us.

I don't know what the point is 2 months before the election of trying to get Kerry made into something that would please someone he doesn't. If he said Y after he has said and voted X, would that suit you? I would think not because the Y before he pandered to you with X still stands.

I don't know why I should try to convince you to still be a Democrat or to vote for Kerry (other than I feel that Kerry rather than being Bush being President is a pivotal moment in the balance of our souls, not to say Kerry is perfection, but is on the saved side of the precipice of damnation). It is up to you. You have the same access to facts as the rest of us. Look at them, look into your mind and soul and determine your course. If you can just not vote or vote third party knowing that might help Bush get elected and live OK with that, well than that is the right decision for you. Everyone's vote is their own, their voice and their power. Do what you need to with yours.

What I will do with mine is vote for Kerry and to vote for Progressives in every election I can. And then to hound them to do what is right until my dying day. It is to me the choice that fits me and fits the best options out of all in front of me. It is not an option to make a candidate who I dream of, because she isn't running.

Do what you think is best, but don't put the burden on me to convince you to be a Democrat, it is hard enough that I am burdened with convincing Republicans to vote Democrat.
Kathy

[Proud liberal Kat]

63. OK I am new to this

I went out had a cigarette and thought about it

I understand the conundrum people are in and the frustration and the anger of not having an additional viable option. And perhaps the thought of buying into one of two if both are against or seem to be against your core values the inherent wrongness to give either credence.

My reason for voting for Kerry and doing so proudly is I believe in him, I really do. There are things that bother me, the IWR vote being one, I am still royally pissed at every last one who voted for it as I think it was an abdication of Congressional powers and you had to be blind to not see where BUSHCO was going with it. But I live in this world and I have a baby who will grow up in it. I must dream big, but work within the system and its limitations to make those dreams real. I must not rest on November 3rd (well OK maybe on November 3rd and 4th!) but not after. I must remember where we stand and the precipice we are in and work incrementally and doggedly to change the system. I see no hope in Bush, I see hope in Kerry, I see no other option.
Kathy

[xrepub]

56. I don't know where you fit in anything.

You are never going to have a candidate who fits you perfectly, I won't either. Aside from the repugs, the democratic party is the only viable one. That alone should be enough for anyone. This country has moved way to the right. If we allow the repugs to win this one Lieberman will look like a flaming radical leftist. You belong to the only viable party that is within a hundred miles of sanity. Let that guide you.

[Only Me]

58. *

[nomaco-10]

60. Oh hell, an open mind!... and speaks it on a messageboard....

Thank You and for god's sake and keep posting!. It couldn't hurt, in fact it may be one of the only redeeming qualities left to democracy.
You go girl/guy! Don't stop, because if you do, we may all be in trouble.

[nomaco-10]

97. An entire self delete! Thought better of it did you? NT

[Only Me]

103. Did you not see the post below this one?

[Only Me]

65. Nomac-10 I 'm sorry I tried to edit a little and lost it!

It was not deliberate! I do believe you are a Democrat otherwise I don't think you would be going thru all this if you weren't. It would be easier to sign up at freeper land. I personally believe in Kerry that is why I will vote for him.
I don't like reading things anti-kerry because we see and hear so much from the other side. I think that is kind of why I come here.
To find like minded people. I understand if you don't feel that way. If I thought you were a repug crashing the board I'd give you real talkin' too. But I don't. You are intitled to what ever opinions you have. Again, sorry about the first post.

[nomaco-10]

66. YOU WIN!!! This was a test and you all passed with flying colors.....

I asked the question and I got the answers.

I am more convinced than ever that I am no longer welcome in the party that has been hi-jacked and taken over as the "real dem party". You win, it is the party of "VOTE FOR ME! I"M JUST LIKE bush, BUT ONLY BETTER".

This board has become officially MODERATE and proud of it. Good luck to you all, you will surely need it in the decades to come when all your votes will make the dem party as obsolete as a messageboard on the internet.

god (should be kept out of it), but he should help us all.

[seabeyond]

76. for my childrens future i am sorry you cannot see difference

between bush and kerry

there may no longer be a great space between the democrat and republican party but there certainly is between bush and kerry. if gore had won we may not have had this war with iraq and 9/11 may not have even happen.

3000 lives in one event and over 40,000 lives in another event.

if that isnt significant to you, i surely do not know what is

[Proud liberal Kat]

78. You have me thoroughly confused

You set up a question as a test and then when people to the best of their ability (well at least some) answer your cryptic question, you then sweep down from on high and deemed they failed and go on about us needing God's help because of our failings in your eyes. Were you surprised, you baited a question and got the answer you baited for. What point did your post serve? I answered your question as honestly as someone new to this forum can and I am sure others did the same, then you come down into a second short and less cryptic post and slam all who responded. I don't know I took your question seriously, I answered it seriously and then your last pose proves you were never looking for a discussion, you were waiting to watch those less pure and convicted than you to fail your test.
Kathy

[cheshire]

84. Well if Dean can't win I'm taking my ball and going home. I can't believe

that a whiney little shit is a Dem so go back to Texas with Bush cause that's what you deserve.

[hansolsen]

85. Nomaco: Let me have a try at this. I am a Dean supporter who left 1500

posts on the DFA Open Forum, and what attracted me to him was his willingness to oppose the war and stand up to George Bush. I despised Kerry and Edwards, and all the rest, for their vote in favor of IWR.

So it is that I have come to support the Kerry candidacy only with great reservations. Here is how I reconcile that support, without simply falling into the ABB camp:

I have waged, and continue to wage, an all out war, here and in the Kerry forum, for the campaign to adopt a strategy of opposing the war in Iraq. Kerry has resisted that, but is gradually coming closer to my position. The campaign has apparently taken a highly tactical strategy to take the base for granted and go after moderate swing voters. This has been a losing strategy, IMO, and cedes the high moral ground to George Bush, the Prince of Abu Ghraib.

I want Kerry to attack Bush for what he is: a war mongering modern day Caligula in training pants, and the least Christian man to ever hold the Oval Office.

I could use your help in this little effort of mine. Will you help me?

[democracyindanger]

89. Yay!

Congrats winners!

[MercutioATC]

68. Think of Kerry as a temporary filling...

...you know, not something you want permanently, just something to stop the pain until you can fix it right.

[bushwakker]

70. who cares

[The Straight Story]

82. Kerry = bush lite

Is perhaps what I think I am seeing some people saying here (over time from the primaries to now). That is, they are afraid he won't change enough things fast enough and in 4 years the rich will still be richer and the poor poorer and we will still be in iraq, etc.

Sure he will handle some key things differently, new mindset and all that, but will he make needed radical changes or play the politician and ease into the job and not make waves. Folks here saw dean and others as wanting big changes but see kerry as having been in some power for a long time and not doing anything major (or very few things) to change government. When he came back from nam he spoke out, worked hard to enact change, got into politics and realized change is never easy and you can't always do the right thing each time.

He is a realist and knows how the game is played. A president is not all powerful and neither is a senator/et al. Radical mass change will not happen as no one person can make it all happen, it takes a lot of work from a lot of people with a good leader to make things change. Kerry will need us to help pressure congress critters, keep the big stories in the news and on the web, and to keep active in all ways helping things move along. He cannot go in and re-write all the laws and make things different. Dean and others had the spunk to do it, and the vision, but they still could not do it alone. So the party goes with kerry who can lead and hopefully inspire others into service to work hard on the cause overall. He has experience and has built up contacts and friends along the way to help make his job easier.

We may want a bigger change sooner, and you may well feel left out because the way the party has chosen is slower and more main stream, but that is the nature of how things get done inside the beltway. Even with 8 years kerry won't be able to get things where many would like (and it all needs work on the local levels as well), when you run a company as huge as the US government changes go slow - but changes moving in the right direction are a helluva lot better than the alternative.

You can move the party certain directions if you get active, get others to see your view, press it, educate, call and keep working. Like anything else, may well be slow going.

[Rowdyboy]

83. Hmmm...Bush or Kerry? I think, since I'm a Democrat, I'll vote Kerry

Lots of us on DU (that stands for Democratic Underground) pretty much are determined to beat George Bush and restore democracy in this country.

Do you share our common goal? Very simple question. A yes or no will do nicely.

[nomaco-10]

87. "QUOTE" " "I think since I"M a DEMOCRAT"........

pretty much says it all. Are we all on the same page? Do we really all think alike?
Something to think about, that's all I'm asking....

I'm just questioning my place in the dem party, I certainly didn't expect to be attacked by true dem partyists. GO FIGURE?

[Rowdyboy]

88. Of course we don't think alike...Democrats have never thought alike...

The coalition that elected FDR included Dixiecrats and socialists, farmer and labor unionist. Jimmy Carter got a majority of the evangelical "born again" vote in 1976. Clinton drew a mix of center-right, center and center-left Democrats. Its all about coalition.

Its not necessary to think alike. I don't care if you're a Lieberman conservative, a Gephart laborite, or a Wellstone leftist-I just care that you help depose George Bush. Your personal politics are irrelevent. You simply need to group with people who share common goals. We, here, have a common goal which is getting our country back. Its an extremely emotional issue to most of us. I'm sorry if I appear unconcerned by your qualms about the Democratic ticket, but its just too late to bitch and moan. Its decided.

Its an up or down vote on four more years for George Bush. Everything else is irrelevent.

[TexasSissy]

86. What are you talking about? You don't say what your

platform is, to make us understand why yours is so different from the current Dem. platform.

I have major differences with the Dem. Party, but even more differences with the Repub Party. So here I am. Could be I'll re-register as an Independent. Maybe that's what you should do.

Are you far left? Is that what you're saying? Or are you more moderate than the current platform?

[nomaco-10]

91. Happy to answer you....I am a life long dem, but am questioning.....

my affiliation to the dem party at this point in time.
I will not, nor can I, with any kind of good conscience vote for Nader either, he is not an option for me.

The whole purpose of my post was to see and try to figure out, just exactly what my role is in the "NEW" dem party.

I am on a quest as far as this is concerned. I'm finding out that my take on Kerry is not welcome here and that disturbs me more than anything else.


I was a yellow dawg dem up until now, and I think there are more of disenchanted people like me, and we should be addressed.

[Proud liberal Kat]

92. But you didn't answer

Why are you disenchanted, what do you want to be addressed about? Or is this some other test!

[nomaco-10]

95. Gee whiz, you guess. Could it be his vote for the IWR.. or could it be....

his all around voting record, or lack there of, for the last 30 years that make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

Yes, accuse me of being one of those voters that just can't reconcile pulling the lever for Kerry after long and considerable study of his voting record for the last 25 years. It's a ping of conscience on my part or a weekness according to some here. Anybody on this messageboard that has really studied the issues must come to realize that any good, true dem has got to be conflicted and John Kerry is way past due to even make an effort to kwell our issues. That's all.

[Proud liberal Kat]

96. Well then don't vote for him

Seriously he is who he is, his record is what it is, and he is the candidate. Nothing can change that. I am not belittling your issues, it is just too late to morph the candidate into something he is not. He is who he is, what is in his heart and what he will fight for is there, whether it is exactly what we see or something covered by political expediency to a degree we will find out when he wins.

I just don't understand what you want if you want anything, you have to vote your conscience wherever that may lead you, vote it as everyone will all vote theirs. I mean that in all seriousness if your questions and doubts run so deep that you can't vote for Kerry, well than that is the right option for you and nothing anyone here says will convince you nor should it. It is too late to change the options for Nov. 2nd, what we each do that day is rather limited. What we do from that day forward to effect what we want is wide open.
Kathy

[saracat]

102. Really? I am fascinated. Seriously.

His all around voting record for the last 25 years? He has one of the best voting records in the Senate. I gather you supported Dean who certainly (check his evaluation by his fellow governors as the fifth most conservative governor in the nation!)was more conservative than Kerry and doesn't have anything remotely approaching his record on the environment. What do you find ,beside the IRQWAR vote so awful ? I am not being facetious, I really would like to know.I didn't support Dean because he wasn't liberal enough for me.We are two opposite sides of the coin it seems.BTW, other than a Dem gone mad such as Zell, I'm not sure that anyone has the right to define a Dem in any particular way amongst the many variables that are available under the big tent. Your interpretation of what it means to be a Democrat might be different than mine ,but it is nonetheless as valid!

[TexasSissy]

111. The League of Conservation Voters rates him as 96% on his voting

record for the environment. So maybe you disagree with some other issues he's voted on, but even objectively speaking, he has shown up and voted 96% of the time for environmental issues. That's very important to me.

He voted against drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. That's important to me.

As for other issues, he says that in some instances, he voted against some things because the bill had other things wrapped up in it. That's the way it works in Congress. I am disappointed about his votes on both the Gulf War and the Iraq War. I think they were politically motivated, and not votes of his conscience. But given the choice between Kerry and Bush, Kerry is the better choice. And he will definitely be good for clean air, clean water, alternative fuel sources, job creation, stopping or slowing outsourcing through taking away tax incentives that currently exist to outsource, and other things.

I don't think it's a "new" Democratic Party, except in the sense that it seems more liberal now. I, too, have been a registered Dem. for over 30 years. I, too, am thinking of re-registering as an Independent. But I will openly tell you it's because I don't fit in with the far left, the very liberal. I am like most of the country....somewhere in the middle (except that I'm left of center a bit). I noticed that you never said whether you were more moderate than your perceived "new" Dem. Party, or more liberal. I can only wonder why. Oh, well. None of my business, except that you raised the issue, so I thought I'd ask.:shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

94. I am responding to these particular words of yours...

You - The whole purpose of my post was to see and try to figure out, just exactly what my role is in the "NEW" dem party.

By attacking others when you seem to find them attacking you offensive, you are in effect becoming what you say you abhore..

You - I am on a quest as far as this is concerned. I'm finding out that my take on Kerry is not welcome here and that disturbs me more than anything else.

To me your take is welcome and obviously to this board or you would have been removed don't you think? So because a few don't exactly agree with your stance, and they haven't all mine either, you then attack the whole party as being responsible?

Think about it please..your really wrong..

[AuntPatsy]

93. I'm not so sure after reading every single post on this particular

thread that you get it either? I promise I am not being self defeating as to aligning myself with any one individual, for to do so will always leave one wanting.

I thought at first that I understand why you posted this thread. I had thought you were trying to get people on this board to understand that we don't all have to think exactly the same to be excepted and not denied free speech.

But then you backtracked, many did try to brave this discussion and you in turn attacked them. I saw it as many did.

So as to what your point was all along, only you seem to know it...

I am registered as an idependent, I believe not one such political party be they dems, reps, indep, greens, etc, and there is more as I am sure you are well aware of, to believe and think exactly like myself...

My thoughts at this point on the Democratic party is that at this time and that includes those parties outside the highlighted two party system is that they and they alone come close enough to how I believe democracy should be run, by allowing everyone a voice, and at least attempting to please each issue as best a country can taking into account the size and diverse population that defines America...

What you seem to be proposing is to find one such party or candidate to follow your particular agendas, safe yourself the trouble, no such party exists.

Your defeating yourself and your fellow countryman with your questionable accusations against this particular party...

Just my opinion though and I hope you don't take it personaly. I value your continued freedom to be able to express your views even when the differ from others...

[nomaco-10]

98. Dear Aunt Patsy, I challenge you to specify exactly where I backtracked or

attacked any one poster on this thread, especially since my thoughts were expressed in a general intent and were never intended to slam, slander or bad mouth any individual poster. Your post is exactly what I'm talking about. You might as well take the position of Tom Delay, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly if you want to condemn my words without taking into consideration my heartfelt and open minded opinions about John Kerry in general and the election of 2004.

I cast my first vote in the Carter election in 1975 at the age of 18 and I have voted straight dem since. I can only tell you this, I am as unhappy to be questioning the dem party at this point in my life as I am in posting about it here.

[AuntPatsy]

99. I surely see this post as backtracking to not like being attacked.

Just my opinion though and I do stand by it...

nomaco-10 (1000+ posts) Sat Sep-04-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message

66. YOU WIN!!! This was a test and you all passed with flying colors.....


I asked the question and I got the answers.

I am more convinced than ever that I am no longer welcome in the party that has been hi-jacked and taken over as the "real dem party". You win, it is the party of "VOTE FOR ME! I"M JUST LIKE bush, BUT ONLY BETTER".

This board has become officially MODERATE and proud of it. Good luck to you all, you will surely need it in the decades to come when all your votes will make the dem party as obsolete as a messageboard on the internet.

god (should be kept out of it), but he should help us all.

[AuntPatsy]

100. One more thing, as a fairly recent political activist unlike

so many of you, I take alot of time and research when voting since I try to keep my options open and refuse to be held down to one party, maybe that was your mistake?

I don't just say, hey I was born a democrat Ill die one, things change and people change and as is fairly obvious, parties change. But the facts are no matter how much it might distress me at times, you cannot trust anyone particular party to hold onto your personal values as to what America should be like to be consistant..

Way too many fanatics out there screaming they and they alone should have their personal issues written down as law and set in stone for the whole nation..

I don't agree with that, as I said before we are much too diverse and I happen to like that about us. The democratic party attempts to reach out to everyone, can you say the same about any other party today? You cannot please everyone nor can you find true pleasure for yourself trying...

But you can show them respect...so many do not..I might not like you, or even what you believe in even if it is one particular issue, but I will fight for your right to be heard and seen even if that one particular issue cannot be addressed as it would take another's freedoms away, which is surely an end result for many such issues..

Don't languish now in this campaign, this is really too important to ignore, and I am sure you are well aware that you cannot trust anyone politician or even any American to be completely and utterly without fault..

That the nature of us supreme beings that supposedly have been put here to rule all, we are not infallible...

[DemBones DemBones]

105. You seem to assume that we are all completely contented

about the direction of our party. We're not. But this is not the time to argue about that. This is the time to try to save our country from going down the tubes. I've got a few years' experience on you and I see this as the most critical election of my lifetime. Why are you not getting it?

There are only two candidates to choose between since Nader has no chance of winning. I think it should be beyond obvious why Democrats and others are voting for Kerry instead of for Bush*. What don't you get about it?

At this point in history, you are either with us, the forces of sanity, or with them, and I could care less if that sounds like a Bush* statement. On November 2, there are only two choices: Kerry or Bush*. Why don't you get it?

If you don't vote for Kerry, and Bush* gets to continue his dismantling of America, you'll have to live with the knowledge that you facilitated that. Got it?

[jonnyblitz]

106. you talk like Kerry would break some great cycle of "leftism"

in the Democratic Party. BWAHAHAHAHA. The party has been moderate/centrist for awhile, Kerry would just continue the cycle. Sad but true. :shrug:

[DemBones DemBones]

107. You're correct, and I'd like the party to move left.

Right now, though, the focus has to be on getting Bush* out of office and breaking this cycle of far-right lunacy.

[wyldwolf]

110. For a while?

I don't recall the democratic party ever being too much further left than it is now.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

109. I'll take a shot at this, it's happened before

It is between Bush and Kerry. Period.

Allowing Bush to appoint Supreme Court Justices is permanently damaging to this country. So, if for no other reason, SCOTUS is a FANTASTIC reason for voting for Kerry.

Another reason for voting for Kerry is perception with the rest of the world. If Bush is re-elected, we can just forget about any kind of coalition with the world. It's important that we show the world that we have not completely lost our minds. World Leaders will give Kerry the benefit of a doubt and work with him, I believe.

[TexasSissy]

112. Good points. Esp. the Supreme Court.

[EndElectoral]

113. Kerry is the first Dem Ive been excited about voting for

Look at his 71 speech, his service, his watchdog attitude in Congress helping initiate Iran Contra and the BCCI..his record on the environment..his fight for people rather than corporations....

I agree the demonization of the man by the Rove machine is affecting people, and its a damn shame.

Especially with such an incompetent man in office and an entourage of evil around him.