Why on earth would anyone want to go negative today?

[MrBenchley]

Especially after the GOP's negative campaigning has made them a laughing stock?

I can't imagine what kind of person saw the hatefest at Madison Square Garden and sincerely said to him- or herself, "Wow, I wish we had vicious unhinged pinheads like that on our side."

An incumbent president in the ruling party just had four days of television, and showed the nation they had nothing but hate and bitter rage to offer....and you think we ought to abandon real issues like jobs and health care and national security to show we can be as spiteful and ugly as them?

For shame.

[DenverDem]

1. Yeah, why use the truth of the busholini family sociopathology?

We should just be nice and continue to let the publicans assault us with lies and not fight back. We may lose the election and our country, but then noone will be able to accuse us of not being nice.

[jjmalonejr]

5. Busholini Family Sociopathology?

It's not a matter of "being nice," it's a matter of not sounding like wild-eyed freaks. Let the GOP do that.

Kerry can attack Bush without over-the-top rhetoric like "Busholini Family Sociopathology." Do you really think that's persuasive, or is it just self-satisfying?

[DenverDem]

7. Yeah, just play nice and talk about wonkinsh policy proposals.

That is really persuasive.

I got your "self satisfying", swinging.

[MrBenchley]

20. Gee, better that than piss off Italian-Americans

"I got your "self satisfying", swinging."
Seems like you've been stroking it, too.

[MrBenchley]

9. Geeze-louise....

You fight back by focusing on issues...not by sniveling about the "busholini family" (nice to see somebody openly insulting Italian Americans, by the way....)

[EnfantTerrible]

11. I agree

This debate is on-goin on another thread right now and the view point we share was not taken to kindly.

[MrBenchley]

21. Guess they think Obama should challenge someone to a duel

so we can see which of the keynote speakers is a better shot, or something...

[EnfantTerrible]

34. Exactly

Obama was so dead on... alas a lone voice in the wilderness it would seem. There are many here among us who have been successfully poisoned by the machine of chim-chim and spin doctors. Rove may be a genius.

[thebigidea]

53. Italian Americans are insulted by the mocking of Mussolini?

[OneBlueSky]

2. with BushCo, just telling the truth is sufficiently negative . . .

there's a difference between going negative with lies and innuendo, and going negative by pointing out the real failures of the Bush administration . . . forcefully and repeatedly . . .

[blondeatlast]

13. Agreed, indeed. It seems we need to make that distinction lately.

But it ought to be obvious.

I just discussed this with my husband, and he's absolutely right. It's time to use their own failed punches against them.

[MrBenchley]

24. But it has to focus on issues

not crap like "sociopathology"

and it has to offer real alternatives. It's not enough to just say "Bush lost 2 million jobs." Kerry has to continue to say "Bush lost 2 million jobs by pushing outsourcing, I will propose changes in the tax code to discourage outsourcing and give incentives to create jobs here."

And saying "Bush lost 2 million jobs and his family has sociopathology" is just plain loony-tunes.

[papau]

3. Perhaps because negative works?

Folks fell and say that hate negative campaigning and that it turns them off and makes them less likely to vote for the negative speaking person -

but the secret of the GOP has been to realize that the media gives no time to Dems when we are positive - so the GOP has the media tell us the value of staying positive. They don't mention that only fellow running for Pres must look the optimist who will not go THAT negative - only a little negative.

And that the more negative the rest of the pack gets the more likely that they will win - as the GOP say - politics isn't beanbag!

[MrBenchley]

19. The only chance the GOP has now

is to make both parties go negative and turn off voters. Any sort of decent turnout and they're cooked.

They need to be able to say, "See, both parties are the same." That's why you're already beginning to see folks running around saying that what the slimeboatters did is no different than what Michael Moore did.

[blondeatlast]

4. Not negative, but definitely more aggressive.

Pointing out the truth of Bunnypant's administration isn't negative, but in order to get heard by the media, it's got to be AGGRESSIVE.

We didn't like Zell and Gropenator's speeches, but they certainly have gotten media play.

[MrBenchley]

10. Yeah,. but people laughing about them is not the media play

that is useful to them....

"Dun't be an economic girlyman" is going to bite them in the ass big time....and Zell is too.

[blondeatlast]

14. Precisely--we need to use those. nt

[MrBenchley]

27. I thought Mary Beth Cahill did a nice job yesterday

Judy Woodruff asked a question about the Republicans ridiculing Kerry on flip-flopping, and instead of bothering with the "flip-flopping" nonsense, she said "That's all they have is ridicule because they can't talk about real issues."

[blondeatlast]

32. I didn't see it... Did she spell the issues out, I hope?

WE, the Dems, need to be framing the debate NOW.

[MrBenchley]

38. As much as she could...

The issue is not whether Junior Flyboy ever turned up in Alabama in 1973....the issues are that jobs are flying out of the country in 2004 and that we are less safe in 2004 than we were on September 10, 2001.

[mbali]

50. Here's the Transcript:

JUDY WOODRUFF: I spoke during the last half hour with the chairman of the Bush/Cheney campaign. I am joined now by John Kerry's campaign manager, Mary Beth Cahill.

Mary Beth Cahill, first of all, this new "TIME" magazine poll showing that George Bush has moved into an 11 point lead, higher than anything we've seen in this campaign.

What's your reaction?

MARY BETH CAHILL, KERRY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: My reaction to that, Judy, is that there are three polls that I know of out today, one of which has us even, one of which has the president two points ahead and then this.

I don't think we know yet what the real poll numbers are going to be, as we go forward, but I think that, you know, a bounce is a bounce. You go up and then you go down. And this race will go back to where it's been, even and with both campaigns fighting over the undecided voters.

WOODRUFF: Well, let's talk about this convention. Today, John Kerry has already hit back at the criticism that he said he received during the campaign.

Among other things he's talked about how dare they, in essence, challenge me on being commander in chief when Vice President Cheney didn't even serve at all in Vietnam?

Is this a line of attack that your campaign is going to continue to rely on?

CAHILL: You know, actually, I think it's a line of attack that we have been exposed to over the last six weeks or a month. And this is the first time that we've responded to it.

It's -- Obviously, John Kerry wants to talk about the future. He wants to talk about the economy. He wants to talk about healthcare. He wants to talk about keeping jobs in this country.

But you know, the Bush/Cheney campaign and their allies want to talk about the past, and they want to talk about fitness for service. John Kerry takes a back seat to nobody in this country in his devotion to patriotism and leading this country.

WOODRUFF: You said he wants to talk about the economy. Let's talk about these new numbers out today.

The Bush campaign is saying 144,000 new jobs. They're saying 1.7 million new jobs added in the last year. The rate of unemployment is down, and they're saying President Bush's tax cuts are largely responsible for this.

CAHILL: You know, this is actually fewer jobs created this month than it is people coming to the work force. Once again, it's a net job loss for this president.

I think, you know, as -- with 60 days to go to the election, there's a scorecard on the Bush economic plan. And it's an "F."

WOODRUFF: Well, let me ask you about one of the themes, Mary Beth Cahill, coming out of the Republican convention. And that is that John Kerry does not take consistent positions.

They not only criticized him, they ridiculed him. For example, New York governor, George Pataki, I just want to read you very briefly what he said last night in introducing President Bush, talking about John Kerry and the voting for and against the war.

He said, "He was for it, and he wouldn't fund it. He would fund it but he wasn't for it. He was for the Patriot Act until he was against it, or was he against it?" In sort of a singsong delivery.

Are you concerned that this is an impression setting in with voters or could set in, and if not, how do you turn it around?

CAHILL: I think, actually, that is that tactic on the part of the Bush/Cheney administration, because they don't want to talk about the real issues.

And they certainly don't want to talk about their own record: a net job loss, people unable to pay for their health care, people concerned about children's education, the real issues that affect people in America day-to-day in their lives.

I think that ridicule is something that they fall -- they fall to because they can't talk proactively about a positive agenda. John Kerry and John Edwards can, and that's what they'll do from now until election day.

WOODRUFF: So when Vice President Cheney himself says that John Kerry's liveliest disagreement, he said, is with himself, and he talks about a habit of indecision, I mean, these are very tough charges. And again, if that "TIME" magazine poll, you know, holds up, some of this must be taking hold on the public.

CAHILL: Well, as I said previously, there are two other polls that I know out today that disagreed violently with this poll. We'll see what happens. We've heard that, you know, there are problems inside of this poll.

But regardless, this election is about the future. And the thing is, voters think that elections are about them and about their choices, not about what a vice president might charge in a convention.

WOODRUFF: Very quickly, Mary Beth Cahill, the reports this week of possible staff changes in the Kerry campaign. You're staying where you are?

CAHILL: I'm staying where I am, happily stay right where I am.

[Rageneau]

54. Meat Puppet Woodruff Can't Distinguish Between Acuality and Accusation

WOODRUFF: So when Vice President Cheney himself says that John Kerry's liveliest disagreement, he said, is with himself, and he talks about a habit of indecision, I mean, these are very tough charges.

Cheney makes malicious assertions against Kerry's character and Woodruff treats them as if they were official indictments. An objective and competent journalist woud have said (at minimum): "Those are strong words ... or 'Those are serious accusations.'"

But not our pandering Judy.

[Joe the Revelator]

Laughing Stock??

Lets be real, they're up double digits

[MrBenchley]

15. Who do you think you're kidding....

Do they act like they're up double digits? Do you see them running around waving Zell's speech proudly?

No, you don't....because their multi-million dollar smear campaign flopped....

Read some of the other threads and you'll see how those polls were manipulated to give Junior Flyboy the appearance of a lead.

Meanwhile people who believe what Time Magazine has to say are still waiting for Nixon's secret strategy to pay off with victory in Saigon and for that Watergate distraction to blow over.

[Joe the Revelator]

6. double

[seabeyond]

8. that is what i thought, to my surprise, the preacher of baptist

school during chapel thurs morning didnt talk about jesus. he talked to the kids about bush. and how proud he was of bush. what a christian bush is. how hard bush works. how we must pray for him to win so he can lead us and keep us safe

boys both told me thursday afternoon when i picked them up

yesterday the first grade teacher talked to my 6 year old about the school in russia. the hundreds of children being killed by iraqi's

[MrBenchley]

17. Did you complain?

"how hard bush works"
Lots of luck selling that proposition to grown ups....

[elperromagico]

12. We don't have to give 'em hell. We just have to tell the truth,

and they'll think it's hell. :D

[blondeatlast]

16. EXACTLY. And the sooner, the better. nt

[MrBenchley]

18. Exactly...

And when Truman said that he was telling the truth about ISSUES...not about what a sleazeball Tom Dewey was....

And you can look it up.

[elperromagico]

22. I know. And there's plenty in the records of Bush and Cheney

that can nail them to the wall.

They wanna talk about Kerry's record in the Senate? Okay. Let's talk about Bush's record as President. Let's talk about his record as governor of Texas. Let's talk about Cheney's Halliburton connections.

There's plenty to get these guys on - and you wouldn't have to tell a single lie or make a single personal attack to do it.

[blondeatlast]

29. I'm so ready--Where do I sign?!

YES!

[MrBenchley]

30. But it has to focus on issues...

People want to know their own jobs will be there, more than they want to know about Dick Cheney's right now

[elperromagico]

37. What do you propose, then? n/t

[EnfantTerrible]

28. Why don't people realize that the issues

like education (hence the inordinate number of ignaorant people who support the chimp)...

separation of church and state (preaching politics from the pulpit to children) ...

abuses and distortions of the Framers intentions (Patriot Act)...

etc etc are at the root of the problem... you dont' kill a weed by pulling it's head off. You've got to go to the roots.

[MrBenchley]

39. And people are worried about their jobs going away

or their health care costs eating their future here in 2004....

Not about who did what last century....

[UdoKier]

23. Laughingstock?

A laughingstock with a supposed 11 pt. lead...


Kerry should slam Bush and lay out his plan too.

[blondeatlast]

26. Remember Bunny before the Dem convention? "Less than 15

points is a failure."

Like I say, use Bunny's record against him.

[MrBenchley]

31. You said it: "a supposed 11 pt. lead"

And wasn't it brave of him to risk personal injury when he threw out that baseball? Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight.

If you're going to swing like a weather vane whenever Time magazine lies to you, you're going to get very dizzy.

[UdoKier]

36. I'm not swinging because of Time's poll.

I've been getting more and more annoyed at Kerry's disinterest in fighting back against the Swift Boat crap for weeks now.

[MrBenchley]

41. Because the issue isn't 1971...it's 2004

the slimeboat crap has sunk on its own.....

[UdoKier]

45. According to the MSNBC poll, a lot of people believed it.

Kerry's lackluster response to what was a pack of lies did not help. Why did he rely on the media to debunk it? I thought he handled the "intern affair" rumor by Matt Drudge much better. He flat-out denied it, nipped it in the bud and moved on.

[blondeatlast]

44. We need to show the voters what a poor record Bunny has, not rehash

what has pretty much become a dead issue.

It was pretty well crushed to death a couple of weeks agao.

[MrBenchley]

47. Limbaugh is telling dittoheads the slimeboatters are a Clinton trick

to discredit the GOP...that tells you that the ad campaign spectacularly backfired.

The GOP has a terrible record on jobs, a terrible record on national security, a terrible record on health care, a terrible record on education, a terrible record on Social Security and pensions, a terrible record on policing corporate responsibility, a terrible record on the environment, a terrible record on energy policy, and a terrible record on foreign relations. We need to stay focus on how Kerry and the Democrats are going to fix those problems...not just piss and moan that the other side stinks.

[UdoKier]

49. Whatever. The ads are still running & a lot of idiots have been convinced

Now they are focusing on his protests, and his testimony to the congress. They are presenting some of the testimony of others that he read as though it was accusations he had made himself, and glossing over the FACT that the atrocities Kerry talked about DID happen.

They are still mad at Kerry for telling the truth, and making it look like he slandered the troops to a public who are very ignorant of the history of the Vietnam war.

I'm 35. I know about Me Ly, but most people my age do not. Not answering this stuff leaves the impression that he was against the troops, when he was actually a whistleblower who wanted to get them out of there.

[blondeatlast]

25. Not negative--aggressive. It's time to come out swinging.

We need Dean and Carville everywhere attacking Bunny's RECORD.

Bush's record is the best weapon we have.

LET'S GO WITH IT.

[roseBudd]

35. a perfect example of bush's record of incompetence

Please print and distribute the image above. Put them on car windows. Hand them out on street corners. We don't need TV buys to get some attention on this issue. We have to undermine Bushs perceived strength. We all are potential disseminators of printed media. We do not need newspapers permission or lots of money for commercials. We need viral grass roots marketing. We need to create a buzz. If we create a buzz with massive distribution of printed ads we will get media coverage. If these start miraculously appearing and no one knows where they are coming from it will start to get media attention.

INCOMPETENCE is key

high resolution version for printing here:
http://somnamblst.tripod.com/

[Walt Starr]

33. Hmmm, let's see....maybe because

BUSH WENT UP 17 POINTS AFTER THEY WENT NEGATIVE???

COULD THAT HAVE SOMETHING TO FUCKING DO WITH IT???

Mr. Niceguy ain't working and if it continues, we lose in a landslide and freedom dies.

[blondeatlast]

40. We can be aggressive without going negative. All we need is

Bunnypants and the Crony Conservatives "Best of" album.

As in "record."

I'm mad, my pathetic attempt at humor cheers me up...

[roseBudd]

43. but we need it in a yada yada version like this:

Please print and distribute the image above. Put them on car windows. Hand them out on street corners. We don't need TV buys to get some attention on this issue. We have to undermine Bush's perceived strength. We all are potential disseminators of printed media. We do not need a newspapers permission or lots of money for TV commercials. We need viral grass roots marketing. We need to create a buzz. If we create a buzz with massive distribution of printed ads we will get media coverage. If these start miraculously appearing and no one knows where they are coming from it will start to get media attention. now someone create a Condi ad and an Ashcroft.

INCOMPETENCE is key

high resolution version for printing here:
http://somnamblst.tripod.com/

[MrBenchley]

42. Did he really?

He sure doesn't act like a guy who's going up in the polls.....

"Mr. Niceguy ain't working"
The hell it isn't. If it wasn't....Chimpy wouldn't be flying around the country trying to do the same act...

[MUSTANG_2004]

51. Negative is good

As long as they're true, I think negative ads are useful. There's nothing wrong with pointing out reasons to vote against the opposition.

Personally, I wish we'd see more negative ads from Kerry.

[jbm]

46. we do need a meme though..

like maybe "except it's a lie" cause we can't just ignore the attacks. If we could spread a nationwide slogan to counter all the existing and potential negatives that have and will come from the right, maybe we can neutralize them without even having to attempt an explanation. Plus, we get to drive home the point that they are liars.

We need the equivalent of 'read my lips' or it's 'the economy stupid' but we need it to serve as a response without having to get into the mud.

[MrBenchley]

48. Issues in THIS century....

not last....

[jbm]

52. I like it! ..n/t

.