Tom Brokaw is full of s***

[ProSense]

Hillary made Obama a much better candidate than he would have ever been? He owes her a debt of gratitude?

You know Hillary is doing some wonderful campaigning for Obama, but this claim is complete nonsense.

Why on earth are people pushing this line?

What makes some people believe claiming that Obama was running around with domestic terrorists in the primary noble, but completely evil and despicable now?

A lot of people were upset with the tone of this primary. It's BS logic to claim it was a good thing, and somehow Obama owes Hillary something for her having dragged his name through the mud.

[Clio the Leo]

1. Defeating Hillary has made beating John a piece of cake...

... and you can substitute "will make beating John" if you're superstitous.

[Cosmocat]

44. Maybe, maybe not, but he still is marginalizing BO ...

We can debate about whether the primary race made BO a better candidate this fall, there are pluses and minuses to that thesis.

But, that isn't what Brokaw was doing. Brokaw as, as usual, and as the Blitzers and all other esblishment MSM whore do, was cutting BO down.

Bring it up, maybe, but the text of it takes credit AWAY from BO more than anything else.

[Clio the Leo]

47. Barack is fine .....

.... if Hillary had dropped out in March, would Barack be ahead now by 20 pts instead of 10? Not likely.

Tom is doing his job, he's trying to keep an audience. It's what they all do. Keith O (whom I adore) does the same thing, he just has a different audience.

[anonymous171]

2. I have to say this. Hillary immunized Obama to a lot of the RWers attacks.

And the long campaign really helped Obama in certain swing states, especially PA.

[ProSense]

6. Nonsense. It wasn't good then and it isn't good now.

Had Hillary won, she would have done significant damage to Obama's political career because people would have attributed his loss to those attacks.

[BzaDem]

38. The attacks worked then, and because of that they are not working now.

His favorability rating dropped over 10 points in and after mid-March, at the peak of Rev Wright and company. Because of that, it does not have an affect now (right now, his favorability rating is at an all time high).

[justiceischeap]

3. I can see your point but I can also see Brokaw's

The time he spent butting heads with Hillary in the primaries gave him a great education to take into this current campaign against McKlan. His team learned how to fight against that nastiness in a more effective manner. And let's face it, it was close in the primaries for a while and that has to be an educational experience as well.

To say that the Obama camp couldn't have learned anything from the primaries that they can apply to the current campaign is like looking at the world through one eye. You're not getting the full image.

[Whisp]

49. you are looking at this like Obama is some fresh green guy

that doesn't know much.

that's just not true.

He won the primary and will win the election not becuase someone else gave him some breaks - HE HAD TO BE SMARTER AND WORK HIS ASS OFF THREE TIMES AS HARD - like most super successful minories and women.

[justiceischeap]

53. I'm not saying anyone gave him breaks

And if you think running at the National level is anything like running at the state level, then you're just naive. Yes, he had to be smarter and he has had to work his ass off but to think he didn't learn anything that would aid his campaign now during the primary is just silly.

[PBS Poll-435]

4. Wright and Ayers don't matter now.

Old freaking news.

The extended primary season was the best thing that could have ever happened to the Democrats.

McCain had the nod in March. And he was old news for three whole months.

[kennetha]

5. Plus the extended primary season with its hard-fought and engaging contest

drove democratic registration and participation to record levels. Obama is now reaping the fruit of that record participation.

[ProSense]

7. Hard-fought doesn't mean smear. n/t

[FreakinDJ]

8. Those were Obama's own words too

"Hillary made Obama a much better candidate than he would have ever been? He owes her a debt of gratitude"

Almost word for word with the exception of pretense

[ProSense]

9. Nonsense.

Obama has always taken the high road, doesn't make the smear legitimate.

You actually believe Obama welcomed his patriotism being questioned and charges that he associated with terrorists?

[endthewar]

19. Who doesn't enjoy being smeared by other people?

:sarcasm:

[SoFlaJet]

21. "with friends like these...."

well you know the rest

[endthewar]

22. Are you calling me a know-it-all?!?

:rofl:

[SoFlaJet]

23. hey you GOTTA be smart

you're a democrat and on this site

[endthewar]

24. gotta be smart because I'm on this site

YAY! :bounce:

Now what political cartoon does that "high" standard remind me of:



:rofl:

[PassingFair]

41. He's not a muslim....

"as far as I know."

Hillary's jabs were MUCH worse than
anything McCain and Mooselini are
throwing at him.

"3:00 am calls" and all that....

"Hard working white voters" who will
NEVER vote for someone named "Obama"...

And it WAS working, she just started
up too late. Just like McCain.

[goclark]

43. Those words still cut like a knife around this house -

[PassingFair]

46. Here too.

Vicious attacks when THEY do it.

Solid campaigning when HILLARY did it.

:crazy:

[David Zephyr]

10. Wrong. Brokaw isn't full of shit. He is shit. But, then again, he's full of himself...

so he is full of shit. Never mind. LOL.

[PretzelWarrior]

11. I do agree. She was an AWESOME sparring partner. additionally

the excitement and frenzy for people on both sides of that primary got way more people registered and way more people voting. Those same people by a LARGE MARGIN will vote Obama--PUMAs notwithstanding.

Obama definitely is a better candidate after the closely fought primary.

[silverojo]

12. You just noticed he's full of shit?

[Kahuna]

13. I've been saying the same thing since the primaries. Hillary whipped him

into shape. If you see the Barack that started the race compared to the Barack standing on the stage now, his tough contest with the Clintons no doubt got him prepared for the rough and tumble of going up against the Rove machine.

[Whisp]

51. o those selfless Clintons - how noble of them.

:eyesroll:

[LooseWilly]

14. "When they first came, they were a wad of cookie dough, within weeks..."

"... they were like chiselled blocks of wood."

Or something like that.

Ed Norton's character in Fight Club. (the other Tyler Dyrden).

Let's face it PS, McCain took 3/4 of his campaign strategy straight off the HRC playbooks... (ironically, he even seems to have taken the eventual implosion out of her playbook). Obama has literally seen this whole general election and most of its variations already... and in that sense, YES, HRC did indeed prepare him quite well for the campaign.
I don't mean to suggest she or her cmpaign did it out of the kindness of their collective heart. They "knew" the Repubs would hit like this... and they seemed all along to be using that suspicion to justify doing it first themselves... just in case. As it turns out, they were right (though, there's no guarantee the McCain campaign, which sure seems to largely have its head up its collective ass, would've thought of quite so many dirty ways to attack, had not HRC showed them possible attacks).
Whatever the case... this is now nothing particularly nerve rattling for the Obama campaign, I would think, since its just "more of the same". Hence he's able to stay cool. Hence he is able to think about other things while McCain tries to dream up versions of the same old attacks that will work as well as the Hillary attacks worked back in the day... As a result Obama is coming up with policy speeches, while McCain flails away... and when he sees an opening Obama takes a quick counter shot... then goes back to real issues.

"Tall, skinny guys fight until they're pulp..." again from Fight Club. Pitt's Dyrden this time, I think.

[Awsi Dooger]

15. Your instincts flunk

I saw Brokaw's comment and he was spot on. The earliest Obama supporters isolated the winning candidate but they were dead wrong for months to fret and whine about the extended primary.

Obama couldn't have bought that type of benefit for billions of dollars. It made McCain all but irrelevant, like he had fought on the undercard. He was paralyzed to attack because the opponent hadn't been isolated. The Democrats were the focus and Obama received enormous credit for defeating someone as high caliber and well known as Hillary. In fact, it helped that Hillary found her stride late in the primaries and won several big states late in the game. That made Obama's triumph even more significant, since she was looking great in the final rounds and her reputation improved.

I don't know why any of that was concealed at the time. I was posting it repeatedly. The registration frenzy throughout the spring as the primary battle continued, piling up the cash, more campaigning and more debates, and getting all the Wright stuff in the open, was almost a residual benefit. Notice how ineffective the GOP attacks have been? Have you ever seen anything like that before? We could only dream of replicating that two-headed dynamic into June every open cycle forever.

Besides, Obama's one major prior race was a farce, versus Alan Keyes. He hit a rookie wall late in the primaries against Hillary. His own campaign operatives whispered that. It was glaring, no variance in his speeches. There's been no sign of that this time, and the elongated primary lasting almost 5 months from first ballot cast to Puerto Rico made this convention through early November stretch seem like a 6 furlong sprint.

[ProSense]

25. Your spin is silly

The earliest Obama supporters isolated the winning candidate but they were dead wrong for months to fret and whine about the extended primary.

See, there you go equating the length of the primary season with smear tactics. Typical nonsensical logic.

If Hillary had pulled out a win, Obama's loss would have been attributed to those smears. He would have been brought down by questions about his patriotism and ties to terrorists, and at the hands of a fellow Democrat (even more damning).

The tactics were despicable, and no amount of revisionism changes that. What you and Brokaw are trying to do is justify the ends with the means. So the next time a Democrat pulls this shit people like Brokaw will chock it up to a "hard-fought campaign."

Question: Is McCain fighting a "hard-fought campaign"?

Your logic fails.

[my3boyz]

16. I despised Hillary's tactics during the primary and I

still despise them. However, I will admit that she did make Obama a stronger candidate. When you go through the tough things that Obama went through during the primary, it makes you stronger. ALSO, even though Hillary did not bring out the Wright stuff it is so good that it came out earlier. Just imagine if the whole Wright thing broke right now in the middle of August? Just think of what it as like during Wright and the media was playing it non-stop. McCain's numbers would be going up. Even though I was thoroughly pissed during the primaries, if it had to come out then it was better to come out then. It only broke because the GOP was TERRIFIED of having to run against Obama. So they were willing to blow what would have been a perfect October surprise for them to keep from running against Obama. The telling thing is despite what Hillary or the GOP did Obama still won despite being attacked by both.

[Undercurrent]

17. By the time the general started

Obama was battle hardened. He had survived the primary crucible. That experience is an advantage in the general where the heat is even more intense.

Hillary didn't do this as a favor. It was a knock down, drag out fight to win, and she fought with every weapon she could find. Fair or not.

It's history now. Books will be written, and pundits will jabber on and on. We all forget the jabbering, but it will be interesting to read some of those books in ten or twenty years.

[Waiting For Everyman]

18. Yes, it was nice of HRC to make McC's ads for him in advance.

She should've known better. Obama would be ahead by a lot more now, if it wasn't for her tactics.

Brokes doesn't want to admit to himself how damn bright Obama is.

[endthewar]

20. McCain is even trying to turn himself into a "fighter" right now

I swear it seems like Hillary is advising his campaign. :rofl:

[Waiting For Everyman]

26. Maybe he'll cry next. :)

That isn't so farfetched, is it?

[spanone]

27. i saw him say that bs...it makes obama look smaller....his only point

[jpgray]

28. Would NC be competitive today without the extended primary?

Would Obama have the sort of wide-ranging state organization he has today without it? Would he be as able a debater or campaigner without having faced one of the most experienced political machines around? There were plenty of negatives to the long primary, but let's not forget the positives--they doubtless helped Obama in the aforementioned areas.

[GarbagemanLB]

30. Bingo. We are seeing the late primary campaigning pay off right now.

[jpgray]

31. Ha! Beat you by a minute

:D

[ProSense]

32. Utter nonsense

What does the length of the primary season have to do with smear tactics?

If Hillary had pulled out a win, Obama's loss would have been attributed to those smears. He would have been brought down by questions about his patriotism and ties to terrorists, and at the hands of a fellow Democrat (even more damning).

The tactics were despicable, and no amount of revisionism changes that. Just as they're despicable now that McCain is using them.

What you and Brokaw are trying to do is justify the ends with the means. So the next time a Democrat pulls this shit people like Brokaw will chock it up to a "hard-fought campaign."

The notion that Obama owe his campaign win to Hillary is ludicrous.

He would have done fine no matter who the opposition was. The fact is his campaign succeeded despite Hillary's smear.

[GarbagemanLB]

33. Are you arguing that the late campaigning gave him an advantage in certain battleground states?

[jpgray]

34. Nonsense?

Please note that triumphing over smears once leaves one better prepared to defeat them the second time. Building up a state presence in areas like NC during the primary likewise helps during the GE. One can recognize this without condoning the smears. One can also recognize this without making the claim that Obama's success is solely attributable to Hillary.

If I were arguing those latter two points, wouldn't I have actually posted them?

[ProSense]

35. "Please note that triumphing over smears once leaves one prepared to defeat them the second time."

He owes Hillary for triumphing over smear?

Yes, nonsense.

[jpgray]

36. Where do you get this "owes" nonsense? The above is just a simple fact

Given the attention span of the media and the necessity of rapid-response, a smear once failed is largely a paper tiger the second time it comes around. How does recognizing this condone the smear in any way?

[ProSense]

37. Did you read the OP? Are you responding to something other than Brokaw's flawed logic? n/t

[jpgray]

39. Yes. I simply posted my thoughts on the subject

Note that nowhere in my post did I agree with Brokaw that Obama "owes" Hillary. Should I have directly repudiated him in my post? I'm curious as to how you can assume I agreed with everything Brokaw said based on the text of my reply.

[GarbagemanLB]

29. I'm sorry, but it is true. And I was never a Hillary supporter.

I frankly used to think that the 'extended' primary was bad for the party, but it actually made Obama a better candidate, in my opinion. It allowed him time to hone his debate and campaigning skills, and it allowed him to build up organizations in late primary states that are now paying off handsomely (North Carolina for one).

[Colobo]

40. Hillary made Obama fight 15 hard rounds. McCain has been easy thanks to that.

[ClarkUSA]

52. MCCain 's smear and fear campaign against Obama has been Hillary Redux. Both played Rovian tactics.

We owe Hillary no "thanks to that" -- Hillaryland did nothing but try to cripple Obama for the general election as best they could
after they figured out they couldn't win. And they inspired Bill's "good friend" and that "great man" McCain to pick up where they
left off.

The need around here to put lipstick on a pig is tiresome. We should only owe thanks to Team Obama for staying on their
game and never wavering in the face of the unremitting ugliness flung from both the Clinton and McCain campaigns.

Hillaryland deserves nothing but our scorn for the fear-based, contempt-filled, race-tinged attacks they waged against
Obama from beginning to end. The idea that we should be "thankful" is laughable. Lipstick, anyone? :eyes:

[DevonRex]

42. I didn't like that either. There is one good thing, though.

The BS is old news now. Not gonna list the BS, because we all know what I'm talking about. But it is definitely old news and nobody's gonna listen to it. I'm going to assume that if the BS hadn't come out during hte primaries then McKKK would have put it out.

But Obama was always an excellent candidate. His organization was always the best we've ever seen. His demeanor hasn't changed one whit from the beginning: calm, cool, reassuring.

I really dislike Brokaw. He said a few things that got my blood boiling. Like that both candidates were behind the curve on the economy.

[ProSense]

45. "The BS is old news now."

You know, McCain would have had a seriously hard time pulling this out. That he's doing it now is a sign of sheer desperation.

Obama would have had to fight back the way he fought Hillary, but because McCain is a Republican, it would have been deemed vicious partisan smear. I think he would have survived. McCain is a lousy candidate.

With Hillary, because she is a Democrat, the smears could have resulted in a significant hit to Obama's career had she won the primary.

Hillary knew of this because of Bill Clinton pardons.

[Whisp]

48. what tripe - Clinton's looking for credit on this? yah, sure...

but one thing that I do find intresting are the pararells and similarities between the Clinton and McCain campaigns - and how they both made some of the same fatal mistakes...

over confidence in their popularity and abilities (who is this one that we don't know anything about, phftt!?)

both show poor leadership - the candidate runs the , not the managers, they can't blame anyone but themselves

shuffling around after months of campaigning still trying to find their 'voice'

stealing Obama's theme of change and 'I will fight fo ryou!'.

Obama is a master of sitting back and watching his opponents self destruct.
:)

[ClarkUSA]

50. He sounds more and more like Pat Buchanan, the Fox News crew, and PUMAs everywhere

There's never a good word for the best run presidential campaign EVER.