We Need To Make Stuff Again

[Syrinx]

I think Barack should make this a major theme.

We don't make stuff anymore!

The prosperity of the nineties was due mostly to the web bubble.

And, of the prosperity we've had this decade, it was mostly based on the real estate bubble.

We don't need bubbles. We don't need peaks and valleys.

We can't base our economy on paper pushing.

We need to make stuff again.

[ColbertWatcher]

1. Agreed! When we make stuff, we have jobs.

When we don't make stuff, are servants.

[pam4water]

2. No, we are the might nation of

dog groomers and aroma therapist. Just kidding. We so need an industrial base, and not just a military one.

[Cobalt-60]

3. Agreed

We need to stop coddling multi national corporations because they were American companies.
If their headquarters isn't here, if their manufacturing isn't here, if their money isn't here, then they're not American companies. Period.
The Republicans that have eviscerated our manufacturing capacity in search of slave labor are common traitors. Manufacturing capacity is a matter of national security.
Part of a Brand New Deal might well be the regeneration of important industries.
I submit that many major corporations have outlived their usefulness.
All they're good for is scamming money. Instead of quality products and services we get failure and excuses. And since they all act together, that's all we can expect from them.
The multi nationals that provide our automobiles, for example, have proven remarkably unresponsive to consumers. That arrogant ass at GM has basically said we'll take what they give us.
This is intolerable, particularly from a non American corporation.
They need to be replaced with new American companies. If the state has to launch them, so be it.
First law on the new corporate charter limits executive pay and compensation to ten times what the lowest paid regular employee or contractor employed by that company gets.
There's nothing special about the upholstered assholes thumbing their noses at us. They're skilled thieves, thumbing their noses at us from luxury spas paid for by bailout money. Their services are no longer required.

[DainBramaged]

4. Maybe if America was weaned off of cheap imported crap we'd have a manufacturing base again

And a LOT of the blame falls on the doorstep of WalMart for injecting 'low prices' into the lexicon and not quality.

And maybe if Americans didn't buy imported cars we'd have a better chance at selling Domestics

And if they had bought Union made clothing from America instead of schmatas from Thailand and India.

I can go on, but all you have to do is look at the labels of everything in your home to realize we are a Nation of lazy bastards who just want cheap shit. Even our furniture industry is threatened by crap from Ikea and China.

[tucsonlib]

8. I Agree, But....

First you call out WalMart for emphasizing low cost over quality - Absolutely! But then you turn around and chastise the American consumer for buying foreign cars, when the blame should fall on GM, Ford and Chrysler for pushing "style" over quality and innovation. I haven't bought an American car in 30 years. I'd like to, but I still haven't found one in my price range that comes anywhere close to Japanese vehicles in reliability, efficiency, ergonomics or overall value. It's not the workers' fault. The blame should be laid squarely at the feet of the pencil-pushing, number-crunching boobs at the top.

BTW, aren't we in the wrong forum here?.......

[DainBramaged]

11. WRONG, Domestic are as good as if not better, have been for OVER a decade

and the point that you HAVEN'T bought an American car in over 30 years EXCLUDES you from making a judgement aboout the business or it's products. You have no idea what you are talking about, none.:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[tucsonlib]

17. Re: "Domestic are as good as if not better"

Please show me the data upon which you base this assertion. And as for "that you HAVEN'T bought an American car in over 30 years EXCLUDES you from making a judgement" - I HAVEN'T bought an American car BECAUSE after test driving numerous cars, both foreign and domestic, and after extensive research on competing vehicles (reliability ratings, customer satisfaction surveys, road test reviews, resale values, etc.) the domestics just always fell short. Way short. The domestics are, admittedly, improving. But Detroit is still playing catch-up. Sad, but true. So you see, I DO have some idea what I'm talking about. And BTW, smilies won't magically transform your mindless rant into intelligent discourse.

[DainBramaged]

18. Remember what the Slim Jim guy used to say?

Ah, the power of the Big red X, purifies the screen and wipes away anti-Union/anti-Domestic twits.

Ta ta

[tucsonlib]

21. Still Waiting to See Some Facts

I was a member of AFSCME for 15 years and I am PRO-Union. My complaints are in no way meant to reflect negatively on the UAW or its members. The short-sightedness and ignorance of your management is to blame. And this "twit" is still waiting for you to back up your opinion with a few facts.

[LooseWilly]

59. Uhhm.

I've been buying nothing but American cars, because I only buy used pieces of shit that no one wants anymore.
Said pieces of shit are always American (except for a Datsun I bought, which some lunatic had sawed a support bar out of, and which I needed to use a bungee cord to hold the drivers' side door closed on... truly a piece of shit... but hardly representative of Japanese workmanship).
I gotta side against American car manufacturers... if they weren't making such pile of shit cars, people wouldn't be selling them off used at such an incredible rate. Foreign cars, especially Japanese and German, people seem to drive until they disintegrate (unfortunately for me), while American cars start falling apart at the seams much sooner, and much more drastically...

[quakerboy]

37. I have read and agreed with a lot of your posts

I have bought Exlusively American cars, my entire life. Its a tradition my father passed on to me. Most of those around me have bought whatever they felt like and could afford. I believe that by your criteria, I do have the perspective to make a judgment in this matter.

My cars generaly end up costing as much for repairs as purchase. And they seem to be done with their useful life at about 10 years. Thats not true of my friends Honda, or my old roommates VW.

There is a reason that people are still driving 40 year old Beatles, but you don't see too many old Fiesta's. There is a reason that my sister still drives her 84 Volvo, where my 02 pontiac is on its last legs. There is a reason that her 24 year old car has the same retail as an 8 year old ford with half the miles.

I buy American. I will buy American. But saying that domestics are better is wishful thinking. I hope that someday that will be turned around.

[DainBramaged]

40. I own and drive a 95 Cavalier, which is in great shape

There aee A LOT of old Escorts and Pintos driving around NJ, there are A LOT of old OLD Chevy's and HIGHLY RESTORED PRISTINE antiques and muscle cars (how many restored Volvo's, Honda's and Toyota's do you see? And there were MILLIONS of VW Beetles built, so yes, you occasionally see a preserved one driving around), 70s Ciations, 70's and 80's Impalas and Monte Carlos, Oldsmobile's, Pontiac's, Cadillacs more numerous than you can count, I see them ALL the time in NJ, LL the time. The Japanese cars I see that are even close to 20 years old are rusted hulks, paint splotches, or just faded junks.

I respectfully disagree, but it's the karma.




:hi:


Hope you and yours are well.

[quakerboy]

41. maybe its a coastal thing

Here in Oregon, I am seeing a completely different set of cars on the road.

I will give you that I don't see anything but domestics on the restored car front. But I don't see all that many restored cars period. And I think restoring a Volvo would lack a little in the mystique dept.

What do you think of your Cavalier in general?

[DainBramaged]

43. 29.6 MPG combined, has needed minimal repairs through it's lifetime

(I am the second owner) and I have spent less than $100 on parts, which consisted of front brake pads (still original rotors) front strut bar and custom air cleaner assembly, performance muffler, coolant flush, and a detailing. ZERO rust. I may splurge on a new stereo and speakers soon.

:hi:

OH, AC works ice cold too. Bought it with new tires and front struts installed. Original owner just wanted a new Cobalt.

[TooRaLoo]

46. Sorry, I have to disagree with you.

How many Hondas and Toyotas NEED to be restored? LOL

I don't say this to be snarky.

I had a freaking '82 Civic that was pristine, until my stupid ex at the time wrecked it. The only problem I have ever had with a Japanese car is replacing an alternator once (which they're kinda known for). But other than that, they were perfect.

I've also had 2 different older Ford Escorts. They seemed to last forever, but they did have a lot of problems. My '91 Pontiac Grand Prix was almost dead in 3 years. I will probably never buy a Ford or GM again.

[DainBramaged]

47. Who would want to restore a Japanese transport appliance?

Japanese cars have NO soul, spirt, or passion. They are utilitarian pieces of metal and plastic. There are NO antique Japanese cars, but there are PLENTY of antique American cars you can own AND drive. Do you wonder why that is? Don't bother, I don't think I will ever own a Japanese car.



We thank you for supporting Union workers and their products. :eyes:

[tucsonlib]

55. My "Japanese Transport Appliance"

No soul, spirt or passion? Utilitarian pieces of metal and plastic?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TooRaLoo]

63. They don't need a soul. They're utilitarian for a reason.

I buy cars that will get me from point A to point B for a very long time, and that won't cost me an arm and a leg in repairs. Even used Japanese cars last for a long time. There's a reason they hold Blue Book value. That would be quality.

When American cars do that, I'll consider putting some of my modest income toward one. It's not my fault that someone else makes a better product.

[Poseidan]

44. my father is a mechanic

He's always told me American cars are cheap and they break constantly. American's tried to make a quick buck while foreign companies, like Honda, tried to make good cars.

[DainBramaged]

50. (sigh)

[Coexist]

10. you are absolutely correct.

[DainBramaged]

12. I try very hard when it comes to MY industry

:hi:

[Raineyb]

31. Our trade agreements don't help any either

We used to have a tariff based trade system. Now anyone can import goods made overseas cheaper than it costs to pay people to make it here. What's worse, I don't really think the items are necessarily any cheaper than they were back in the day when they were made here. However, the profit margin has gone up because the difference between what it cost to manufacture and the retail price has widened with the cheaper labor.

The expectations for what is a profitable company needs to change as well. Having 20% growth every year should not be considered reasonable it's not sustainable without chicanery as we should have already learned. (Enron anyone?)

Regards

[stolivodka]

45. Maybe if American* companies sold cars that were worth a shit..

Just sayin'!

Also, my friend's Mazda 6 has a UAW sticker on it. Are we supposed to be supporting American autoworkers or American executives?

[tularetom]

5. And we need to fix our infrastructure

So we can move the stuff we make. We have to make an enormous investment in public works to compensate for years of deferred maintenance. Which will have the added benefit of creating a shitload of job opportunities and get money circulating through the economy again.

Then we need to restore tariffs on imports so that our domestic manufacturers can compete on a level playing field.

[Tallison]

6. Alternative energy!

Since we have the supply of R&D infrastructure, technology, and brains, and the demand is unlimited. CNN response lines run high when he hammers that concept.

[Vinca]

7. I heard a 'puke on the tube last week saying we do make stuff.

Guess you missed it. According to him, we make "ideas" and have them "executed elsewhere." It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[Iris]

14. omg! That's crazy talk. Our educational system is a shambles, yet we "make ideas"

What a bunch of crap.

[HughBeaumont]

62. "ideas" don't feed families NOW.

[90-percent]

9. Anomaly

I am in the CNC machine tool business. I work for one of the biggest builders in the world and I gotta tell you all our business is thriving. Setting sales records in 2008 and all that.

I do not get what's going on now, as high capital investments like CNC machine tools are usually the first to feel a recession and the last to recover when a recession ends.

When I listen to the news it seems like we're all going to flip each others burgers for an economy. But when I go to work I'm busy all day helping out people using our equipment.

So from my seat American manufacturing is thriving and setting records. I guess it's all from the segments that are currently prospering - energy, medical, oil field, aerospace. Auto and home construction, not so much.

-90% Jimmy

[DevonRex]

13. I agree completely. We have nothing tangible to back up our

"worth."

To me it's kind of like the difference between owning an RV versus a house on a bit of land. Sure, if we have an RV we have something to sleep IN but we don't have anything to park it ON.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. Solar panels not submarines.

Windmills not warplanes.
Hydro power not Hydrogen bombs.

[NotThisTime]

16. You are so right....

[ogneopasno]

19. Agree -- as I said elsewhere,

When you invest companies that move money around, instead of investing in companies that make things, you're going to get into trouble

[frickaline]

20. Not just this, we need to innovate

The tech bubble created a higher market due to the fact that we were innovating. The problem with it was some of the innovations were 'vapor-ware' -- worthless software sold to unwitting buyers who never really understood the technology to begin with. However, many of the tech bubble innovations were sound and valuable, particularly in the communications and networking markets which tended to be more hardware oriented.

We need to have goods we manufacture but more than that, we need to create. We need to invent and use our education and our minds and create valuable solutions to our current set of issues.

[NMDemDist2]

22. correct, I have a journal entry from 1/22/07 where I addressed this very thing

that is exactly the point. and we used to pay our hard earned wages for products made with pride by our neighbors and we didn't toss them when they broke (which they rarely did) we had them repaired and we cared for them and handed them down to our children.

pieces and parts of our lives that knit our communities together with our labor and with our interdependence. we would no more make a shoddy product for our neighbor as we would feed our family poison.

it was the pride and strength that built our homes, families, communities and nation.

how far we have fallen that we'll allow our neighbors lose their livelyhood so we can have cheap foreign doo dads that clutter our lives and add nothing to our spirits. we turn our backs on community and kill our country with every piece of crap from WallyMart while our Chinese brethren poison their land and water in the chase to make it for us.

Criminal.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/AZDemDist6/13

[DainBramaged]

24. Back in the Nineties (wow so long ago) I supplemented my income

by doing repairs at an Appliance store on TVs, VCR, you name it. It was COMMON for people to bring in a VCR for cleaning or repair, same as a TV, even Microwave ovens. It was a BIG part of the guy's income. Try and find a TV or electronics repair shop now. A phone book from 20 years ago would list DOZENS in your area, now there are none.

Then the cheap shit started coming in from Taiwan and Mexico. When VCR became $99 commodities, and TVs were so low priced and started using LSI"s (Large scale integrated circuits) they became irreparable, hence disposable. I changed my supplementary craft to fixing computers in 1998, but even now, most people just throw them away every two or three years. Our recycling center has 40' CONTAINERS full of them and other electronics every week.

[NMDemDist2]

26. we had a guy down the street in PHX that repaired TVs

an old European guy (Austrian? German? something) and he's just shake his head. "Cheaper to buy a new one, parts hard to get and expensive" he'd say

We bought a new TV a couple years ago when we moved here, and we had to fight with Sony tooth and nail to replace the light engine in a 14 month old TV!!

14 months for a $2500 TV!!!

:wow:

[DainBramaged]

28. He is right, they made it into a disposable economy, with a limited lifetime

[Gregorian]

23. True. We need to make our own stuff. However, we need less.

No one is talking about LIMITS. It's as though there are only ten of us on the planet. 400 horsepower cars. Traveling around the planet. New subdivisions.

Why is no one talking about limits? Because they threaten our comfort. That's why.

Yes we need to make stuff ourselves. Chickens, butter, milk, soap, clothing. Things we don't and can't make any more. And not 400 hp cars. In fact, not cars at all. Now that one's really threatening. How dare I say that. My Prius will save the planet. NOT.

In a nutshell, WE WENT TOO FAR. Homo Sapiens, the animal that didn't know when to stop. Well, the planet is telling us to stop. And now we're trying to figure out ways to sustain our lifestyle without killing the planet. Clean coal, nuclear, solar, wind. Forget it! It's time to go backwards. And no one wants that.

The truth is, in 1898 there was a challenge to inventors to come up with a way to create more nitrogen. The prediction was that by 1930 there would be massive starvation due to lack of food. And it was true. But we found a way to make more nitrogen. And we supercharged the soil. And we polluted the waters of the world. And it's so bad now that when it rains in Alaska there is enough fertilizer in the rain that it's equivalent to what wheat farmers use for spring crops. And the ecosystems are changing due to it. It's the other "global warming" that no one is talking about. Nobody even knows about it. Half the nitrogen in your body came out of a factory machine.

We are artificially huge in numbers. What we are doing is WRONG. And we're going to pay for it. It's no different than the economic problem we're in. Keep feeding it, and it'll only crash that much worse.

Whatever. No one's listening.

[cabluedem]

38. No one wants to talk about or stop overpopulation, even lots of progressives..

how many people stop at one child? Not many.

[Gregorian]

51. The dialogue is limited.

And the solutions will be limited as well. It's a real shame. And it's that part that moralizes it that makes it even more difficult.

We have ten years to stop burning fuel. I'm very unoptimistic.

[cabluedem]

57. Me too. I was a ZPG believer and I always will be. No children here.

I can hardly believe the mess that 3 children _plus_ has created, just like Sarah Palins' **5** children are wreaking upon this poor planet.

She had birth control options, but decided not to use them. A typical Rethugylican "baby-momma", of course.

They care not for their grand-kids, only themselves. When thing get real ugly I expect they wont be able to care anymore, due to death or severe dementia, as we will see in McShame, soon enough.

[Every Man A King]

25. "Free Trade" is the root of the problem

Things will have to get worse before everyone realizes it though.

[rcrush]

27. We make debt!

And not very good at it.

[TheKentuckian]

29. As soon as we can back off this crazy growth based economy

we can slow the population boom and eventually things will normalize.

Clean renewable power.

A stable economic philosophy.

A high level of education.

Drastic reduction in population.

A stake for everyone.

Increased focus on science and exploration of the oceans and space.

Conservation.

and most ills will be squared away.

[Erin Elizabeth]

30. Americans are addicted to cheap shit.

You can buy more cheap shit and we want more stuff, even if it's cheap, rather than less stuff that's good.

I think we should all follow my in-law's example--they don't buy anything on credit, and if they can't afford a high quality, well made ______________, then they wait until they can.

For that reason, they've had the same really nice living room furniture for more than 20 years (classic in style), and their house isn't filled with crap. They've never had to have a garage sale, because they wouldn't even have enough stuff to put in a garage sale. They use the library and only buy books they know they want to own forever (classics, their absolute favorites, etc). And so on and so on. And they weren't always well-off (they are now, but when they were younger, they struggled a lot).

[SmileyRose]

32. All we have to do is stay out of the box stores.

A lot of employees of low economic means would lose their jobs at first though.

[Eric J in MN]

33. Yes, Dennis Kucinich called for the "re-industrialization" of America...

...as an alternative to the bailout.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

34. We manufacture hamburgers - it's our heavy-duty industrial base

[volstork]

35. Alternative energy R&D

can and should generate literally millions of new jobs for Americans.

[BumRushDaShow]

36. Paperwork Elimination Act of 1998 was supposed to eliminate the paper-pushing.

So that should tell you part of why we are where we are now. :rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

39. Totally! 20-odd days from the election, with Obama the prohibitive favorite....

HE NEEDS TO COMPLETELY CHANGE HIS CAMPAIGN!!!

:rofl:

You fucking fail.

[Syrinx]

48. who said anything about a fundamental change in his campaign?

I think an emphasis on rebuilding the American manufacturing base would be entirely consistent with his campaign. An amplification maybe, but entirely consistent.

I'm laughing at you, not with you.

:rofl:

[Cha]

42. Keep those jobs here.."Alternate Energy

jobs can't be outsourced"..Barack Obama

[truthisfreedom]

49. I make stuff. I've had a manufacturing company for 13 years, with 30%/year growth.

It can be done. You just have to be a bit imaginative.

[OwnedByFerrets]

52. Thom Hartmann preaches it daily.....as well as tariffs...nt

[treestar]

53. And producing food

We have the capacity to provide that one product everybody needs.

[cali]

54. my hardscrabble town is leading the way for cooperative

and creative food production. The NYT did a piece about it last week. We have farmers, cheese makers and a tofu producer. People are lending each other capitol. Some folks opened a localvore restaurant last year with 100 investors each investing a thousand bucks. Investors get paid off with meals. What's happening is very, very cool.

[DainBramaged]

56. Sounds Progressive to me!

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

58. I said these EXACT words---not similar; EXACT---to my husband today!

I live in the Former Land of Bethlehem Steel and Mack Trucks.

[demokatgurrl]

60. I could not agree more, this is something I feel SO strongly

about. We are addicted to foreign- made cheap crap, and have been trained to want more more more QUANTITY, which means the stuff has to be cheap.

Here's how little ol' us can help.

If you can possibly afford it, when you have an option to buy something made in the U.S., do it. It WILL cost a bit more. But do it in the spirit that you are helping to save someone's job and, ultimately,maybe even your own.
It's not always possible, but it often is. There are a few clothing brands that manufacture at least some things in the U.S. For example, New Balance makes SOME of their shoes here. There are web sites that link to companies that sell U.S. made goods directly. Sadly, we no longer make electronics, which are such a big portion of consumer goods, but we do make some household goods. I recently bought a small rug, a glass pitcher, a purse and wallet, and some kitchen items that were made here. Just take a minute when shopping and look for the label that tells where it's made.

If the cost of the U.S. item is too prohibitive, maybe you can choose something made somewhere besides China, which pays poor wages, exploits child labor and owns much of this country in terms of debt and trade deficit. If you can't afford Italian shoes, go for Brazil or Portugal... or even U.S. Buy a car from a U.S. manufacturer- even if some are made overseas and/or contain parts from many places, at least some of the money stays here.

[VoodooGuru]

61. This was a big Edwards theme.

Unfortunately I don't have an answer for how to rebuild an industrial base under these conditions. It will take a long, long time, and I suspect one of the things we will have to do is encourage unionization abroad in order to narrow the gap between labor costs overseas and Stateside. When you have a vast pool of workers with virtually no rights, the free market will naturally go exploit them. It's an unthinking, unfeeling creature that way. But when they get the right to organize, minimum wages, 40-hour work weeks, the protections that you and I have come to enjoy, then the costs of labor go up in developing nations, and there's less reason to relocate offshore.

I guess that's part of the "development" in "developing nations", or at the very least it should be, no?