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I Wish The Ds' Would Refer To Our Armed Service Members As "Soldiers," Rather Than Troops

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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:31 PM
Original message
I Wish The Ds' Would Refer To Our Armed Service Members As "Soldiers," Rather Than Troops
Troops is so impersonal. It derives from a French word for "herd."

Soldier is personal and individual. It derives from the French word "sou," which is the base word for money, which implies that a soldier is WORTH something.

Rs like "troops" because it is impersonal. We shouldn't buy into this linguistic trap.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. The term "troops"
is all-inclusive, referring to Army, AF, Marines, Navy, etc. The term "soldier" refers to the Army. At least that's the way we used it when I was in the Navy.
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Cattledog Donating Member (695 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. They're not all soldiers
A Marine would tale umbrage at being called a soldier. Also sailors are not soldiers.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's actually more correct
depending on whether you are referring to the Army or not.

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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. They aren't all soldiers, some are sailors, still others marines. Dems are correct.
Edited on Wed Oct-08-08 04:40 PM by xultar
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Thanks. That's an important distinction.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. What about the sailors? And the airmen/women?
The Rs wouldn't recognize a linguistic trap if it hit them on the head. :rofl:
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. I feel the same way
Though I'm trying to find a more all-inclusive word than soldier.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Our troops include soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, and officers in the event the first four
words are limited to enlisted personnel.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. Troops also implied an "elite" type unit, being the traditional term for Calvary units.
Calvary were formed into "Troops" while Infantrymen were organized as "Companies" (With Artillery organized into "Batteries"). Since Calvary were viewed as the "premium" unit of the Army, the term "Troop" implies a more elite status then "Soldier".

Thus the term "Troop" has with it the implication we are dealing with people we view with more esteem then a mere "Soldier". More of a hang over from pre-motor vehicle days but the term "Troop" brings with it that higher status that goes with the old Horse Calvary, that the regular soldiers of the old leg Infantry did NOT have.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Hmmm. Maybe . . . except it's "cavalry".
Artillery is the King of Battle traditionally.

Infantry is the Queen of Battle.

Don't know where the cavalry fits in, don't know that I've ever heard.

And the notion of 'premium' might be more in the mind of the recruiting sergeant than in the actual status of flyboys, tank drivers etc.

:patriot:




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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Cavalry = Eyes of Battle
and if someone in a Cav outfit called you "Soldier" instead of "Trooper"; nine times out of ten you had messed up and they were demeaning you.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Makes sense.

That would reflect the 'light' horse cavalry and is the roll handled by recon companies today I guess.

Versus the more common equivalence made between the shock and speed of 'heavy' horse cavalry and today's armored regiments.


And if General Lee had General Stuart during all of Gettysburg . . . :shrug:


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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Probably would have starved troops
Remember Stuart had captured a wagon train of supplies for the Northern Army and was escorting to Lee's Lines. Stuart did show up on the Second and Third days of the Battle and fought as dismounted Calvary (The US Tactics of the day and stayed the Tactic till Calvary was finally phased out in 1951, yes during the Korean War, through mounted unit were shipped out with horses during WWI, WWII or Korea, through the 26th Calvary did fight on horseback in the Philippines in early 1942 during the Japanese Invasion).

Back to Stuart. Lee needed those supplies more then he needed Stuart's "Eye". I like the comments Eisenhower and De Gaulle made when De Gaulle visited Eisenhower at Eisenhower's home in Gettysburg after both were NO longer President. They discussed the Battle and reviewed the mistakes of both Generals and would have REPLACED BOTH GENERALS. Lee should have continued Longstreet's flanking actions, instead Lee tried to outdo Napoleon at Auschwitz, by making a charge right up the middle (Picket's Charge). With the improvements in weaponry from the Napoleonic wars such a charge was foolish, the Percussion cap had eliminated most mis-fires so long range consistent fire was possible from ALL weapons on the Battlefield. Napoleon only had to worry about the last 100 yards as to Musket fire, Lee's troops came under effective Musket fire at 600 yards (I am referring to firing against a group of soldiers NOT individuals, that would come later with the invention of Smokeless powder).

Furthermore why was Lee in Pennsylvania? What was his goal? The Main Union army was still between him and Washington and he was in an area HOSTILE to his troops. One Corp did get to Harrisburg, which would have cut the Pennsylvania Railroad in half, but the New York Central was up and running as was the canal between Pittsburgh and Lake Erie, which meant transport would have been made difficult but not impossible. The Claim he went to Pennsylvania to get shoes for his men made sense, till you realized all the North has to do is leave with the workers, burn or bury the shoes and that reason falls apart.

The only mission that seems to make sense is the one advocated by Stonewall Jackson, terrorized the North, show them the cost of fighting and maybe the North would give up and leave the south leave the Union. This was undermined by Lee's Order NOT to loot (Through that Order could be viewed as one to protect Lee, himself, from accusations he was encouraging looting by NOT punishing it). Thus the reason Lee invaded Pennsylvania was to terrorized the North. The other reasons make no sense, terror does. Stuart's action to take the supply train supports that rationale, for it was more important for Lee to get those supplies then to know where the Northern Army was. Lee knew he would have to face it sooner or later, but the aim of such a fight was to destroy the Northern Army. Such a destruction in Pennsylvania would be a double blow to the North (At least in Southern Eyes), free hand to loot Pennsylvania and a huge death toll.

The problem is such a defeat has the habit of causing people demand for a renew effort. The South could NOT hold Pennsylvania so sooner or later the South would have to leave, and then the North would demand revenge. Look at how the South view Northern Occupation from 1865 to 1877. The North DID have the troops to occupy the South and could rely on a huge segment of the population to support its occupation of the South (I.e. the Former Slaves and the people in the Appalachian Mountains that supported the north during the Civil War, mostly do to local politics, but was a factor). Thus the ability to have a larger army in hostile territory AND the support of over 1/3 of the population (And in the Deep South over 50% of the Population and in many "Black belt Cotton districts 905 of the population) made the North's occupation of the South easier then any Southern Occupation of Pennsylvania would have been. Thus long term occupation was NOT an option for the South, and without the ability to hold Pennsylvania WHY attack to the North?

I like the one historian who said the reason to attack the North was to show the North who was boss is a reflection of the old Slave holding outlook, show the slaves who was boss at the slightest hint of rebellion. Hang some every so often to show other what will happen if they even talk about revolt (or even suspected of such thoughts let alone talk) and suppress any revolt with compete savagery (i.e. Kill any slave that was involved even if forced to become involved). This might makes right works as long as you have the upper hand, the problem is if you lose that upper hand, you lose everything. That is what happen to the Shah when he lost the ability to control Iran as while as various other right wing dictators in the third world (Thus how Castro came to rule Cuba, Batista was as savage as any slave holder to any group of his people who revolted).

Yes, a rant, but one for one point, Mention of Stuart at Gettysburg, lead to why the Question why was Lee in Gettysburg, to one of the use of Terror as a Military weapon (And a weapon of rule). Mot often these are viewed as separate issues, but as you can see they are interrelated.
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Bad Thoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. No such thing as a single "troop"
I agree with other posters that the term soldiers cannot cover sailors, marines, airmen. However, troop is, by definition, a collective concept, and we cannot talk about an individual as being a "troop." Perhaps "our fighting men and women" would be better, both inclusive and personal.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Troops is correct per "Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms"
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp1_02.pdf

"troops — A collective term for uniformed military personnel (usually not applicable to naval personnel afloat). See also airborne troops; combat service support elements; combat support troops; service troops; tactical troops."
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. Don't call Marines "soldiers."
You'll tick off soldiers, and once it's explained to them, Marines. :evilgrin:

Same goes for the Navy and the Air Farce. We must admit that these are military organization, but we don't have to confuse 'em with my beloved Army!

(No serious offense meant to other veterans; I invite you all to hurl these taunts back in my lean, mean, green face.)
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Bubbha Jo Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. There's also airmen, sailors, Marines..... troops is an appropriate term.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. The fully correct term of address, as I've heard Wesley Clark give it more than once:

Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Airwomen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen and Coast Guardswomen.

"Troops" is shorthand for that, although Republicans use the term "suckers".

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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. The correct terms are "soldier"....
...."squid", "jarhead", and "airhead"...Oh yeah, and "coasties" whom we couldn't even bother to insult...
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Doesn't "soldier" connote "Army" ?
I think "troops" is used as a catch-all.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines.
Those are the proper terms for the four branches and most members of each branch would bristle at being called the wrong thing.

I get the sentiment, though.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. Troops is correct, as it covers sailors, marines, and airmen as well as soldiers.
Etymology ain't worth shit.
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