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Debate analysis: Palin spoke at 10th-grade level, Biden at eighth

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:23 AM
Original message
Debate analysis: Palin spoke at 10th-grade level, Biden at eighth
Source: CNN

An analysis carried out by a language monitoring service said Friday that Gov. Sarah Palin spoke at a more than ninth-grade level and Sen. Joseph Biden spoke at a nearly eighth-grade level in Thursday night's debate between the vice presidential candidates.

...

But higher grade level doesn't necessarily mean better sentence, Payack said. He pointed to Palin's second-to-last sentence in the debate, which the formula put at a grade level of 18.3:

"What I would do, also, if that were ever to happen, though, is to continue the good work he is so committed to of putting government back on the side of the people and get rid of the greed and corruption on Wall Street and in Washington," Palin said.

"When she said it, it sounded good, but on paper it's a completely different animal," Payack said. "It's like, what is that?"

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/debate.words/?iref=mpstoryview




Could it be that truth is easier to speak than obfuscation?
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Tallison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. When the object is undecideds,...
to whom the best candidate isn't already obvious, the more dumbed down the better.
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Unfortunately, this is the truth. As sad as it is, Biden did the right thing by speaking more simply
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. If you want to connect with the public you have to speak at an 8th-grade level.
Advertisers know this, and apparently so does Joe Biden. Keep your sentences simple and clear. Miss Mooseburger was likely trying to impress the audience with her erudition (ha!). Biden knew the whole point was to communicate.
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Don't even get me started...
Edited on Sat Oct-04-08 09:28 AM by Juneboarder
"Wait how long have I been at this? Oh yea... FIVE WEEKS"!!

Palin is freakin' stupid and we all know it. CNN, you don't have to make your lies so blatant, geeze!

:kick:
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eshfemme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Don't forget the retarded wink she threw in there too.
What's even sadder is that her body language would probably be graded at a kindergarten level-- crude and immature.

It's just the worst combination ever.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. so how many 8th graders do you know that speak like Joe Biden? nt
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Nambe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Sign me up.
I should have gone there straight out of university.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't get that at all..
was the debate a recital?
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
6.  "It's like, what is that?" - Like...for real? Totally.
Edited on Sat Oct-04-08 09:36 AM by Solly Mack
lololololol
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. Biden should have spoken at 4th grade levels
to reach the mouth-breathers...
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. What?? "You betcha" vs. "The past is prologue"??
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Again, I believe a mistake that we Democrats often make
is to believe that people are moved and convinced to make their decisions based upon rational and logical arguments back up by facts. They are not swayed by cogent arguments, but by their emotions and often cannot a reason for their decision, only that is how they "felt". Republicans know this and that is why they make emotional appeals that are not based upon reasoning. For them, "stupid" works because it is unlikely to go over anyone's head and it tends to appeal to a basic emotion, emotional belief, or prejudice.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. Grade 18.3 my ass, "...and get rid of the greed and corruption..."
should be "getting rid..." to agree with the previous verb tense "...putting ".

Who's their language monitoring "service", that paper clip that pops up in Microsoft Word?!

:rofl:
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Bushies gotta go Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. without a doubt
That is the same thing I was thinking, this was some sort of MS Word rating.... I write technical reports that have to be explained to lawyers later in person because they think it is "too hard to understand" even though Word gives it a 6th-10th grade rating.... those things are worthless. And, it would be interesting to see if the person entering the Palin data used whole or proper words instead of "you betcha" and leaving off every g and the end of "ing". Those would certainly be misspellings and affect the rating of the sentence, you would think.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. It has to be explained to THOSE lawyers cause they read at the 5th grade level.
There is a reason why I stated THOSE lawyers. Not labeling ALL lawyers the same.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. There'a another reading.
Of course, it's more difficult to get at, given a preference
for low attachment.  "Low attachment" is a technical
term in psycholinguistics ... compare the following kinds of
structures.  

I hope DU interprets blank spaces as blank spaces and not null
characters.  Note that I'll ellipt parenthetical statements. 
I'll put numbers in parentheses to explicate the trees I'll
draw.  I'll also fudge messy syntactic bits like opening with
a topicalized free relative and having traces (if you buy GB
theory), and just deal with large syntactic chunks.

I'll also use an old fashioned way of looking at
"and", and treat it as just a linking element
between two equal phrases.  * = ungrammatical or ill-formed.

"What I would do, also, if that were ever to happen,
though, is to continue the good work he is so committed to of
putting government back on the side of the people and get rid
of the greed and corruption on Wall Street and in
Washington."

1.
*What (1) I would do ... is 
(2) to continue the good work (3)he is so committed to of (4)
putting government back on the side of the people and (5) get
rid of the greed and corruption on Wall Street and in
Washington.

          (1)
            | 
           (2)    
            |
           (3)
            |  
           and
          /   \
        (4)   (5)

Note how simple the tree is.  Every complement (object of verb
or preposition or of "and") is neatly attached to
what comes immediately before it; and what comes immediately
before it is always lower in the tree--it usually attaches to
the lowest thing it can attach to.  "And" is an
exception--it doesn't attach to "people", the
appropriate phrase isn't "people and get rid of"
where a noun and a verb are joined, so the listener/reader
gets to search for what it can attach to, what "and"
can link.  For that you need two verbs, or at least two like
things.  The closest place that allows linking like things is
whatever kind of thing you think "committed to" has
as its complement--certainly they're nouns of some sort, not
tensed verbs.  So McCain is "committed to (1) putting ...
AND (2) get rid...."  Since "and" would require
both elements linked to be tenseless deverbal nouns,
"get" (which looks like an infinitive, also
untensed) must be an error with "getting" the
intended form.  McCain would then be committed to
"putting ... and getting rid of...."

But that requires asserting that the sentence is ungrammatical
because there's no grammatical reading.  A decent heuristic
showing a bit of humility and good will is to assume that the
sentence is grammatical and look higher in the tree to see if
there's a reading that makes sense.  (These things, humility
and good will are, of course, problems--so it's a good thing
that they're largely erased from American political discourse.
 But humor me.)

Is there a second reading?  Sure.

2.
What (1) I would do ... is  to
(2) continue the good work (3)he is so committed to (4) of
putting government back on the side of the people 
AND 
(5) get rid of the greed and corruption on Wall Street and in
Washington.

In this reading, we need two infinitives, which, by definition
(in English at least) are tenseless.  Stylistically you can
drop the "to" before the second one.  "Today I
want to go to the store and visit my mother" sounds much
better to my ears than "Today I want to go to the store
and to visit my mother," although the latter is more
pleasing to the eye.

But if we assume that we're talking infinitives and not verbal
nouns, where could "and" find another infinitive? 
That first "to" is the signal:  "get"
isn't paired with "putting", but with
"continue".

                (1)
                 \
                 and 
              /       \
             /         \
           (2)          (5)
             \
              (3)
                \
                (4)

Palin would "continue McCain's putting-work" and
would "get rid of corruption."  Fully grammatical,
although best heard, not read.  There'd be an intonation
contour, in the best of all possible worlds, signalling
something about attachment, about how large a syntactic break
there is between syntactic chunks.  

Stylistically, including a second "to" after
"and" is all but necessary when writing.  It might
be nice when speaking, too, but I'm open on the question. 
Lots of things I've read which looked horrible and struck me
as gibberish came across as quite nice and easily intelligible
when I consulted the recording, a good example of the primacy
of spoken language in linguistic analysis.  In any event, this
was spoken, not written.  I suppose I should consult the video
in this case to check for pauses and intonation, but the
reason I had to write "in teh best of all possible
worlds" is that speakers not infrequently leave them out.

Now, we can easily argue that the VP position isn't the best
one to hold "to get rid of corruption" on Wall
Street ... or for remedying health care or working on
environmental concerns, for that matter.  Only after showing
that she couldn't mean that would we be have shown that the
second reading is impossible, leaving us with a choice--she
either intended for the sentence to have no meaning or she
intended for it to have the meaning in (1).  If she intended
the meaning in (1), we're left with its being ungrammatical. 
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GhostofRichardRorty Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. software program misleading/bad methodology
There is a methodological flaw at work here that evaluates easily quantified aspects of discourse, such as how many words in a sentence and how "complex" the sentence is based on how many meaningful phrases are found in it. That is a very crude measure. First, it relies on the transcript's punctuation, which can make a HUGE difference (a well-place semicolon, instead of so many commas, would score quite differently). Second, it is not evaluating "sense" or what we might just call "content" except at the very crudest level (was there a subject and verb?).

A good example is her "high scoring" answer: ""What I would do, also, if that were ever to happen, though, is to continue the good work he is so committed to of putting government back on the side of the people and get rid of the greed and corruption on Wall Street and in Washington," Palin said. This was graded at about a graduate student level at 18.3? As a college prof, I don't think so.

In short, this is a case where we need to be sure not to be blinded by science. The researcher's own qualitative assessment "what is that?" is more insightful that the program's results.

To conclude that Palin spoke at a more sophisticated level than Biden is just silly. A good example of a really poorly applied software program to produce pseudoscience, in my opinion.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. The software didn't understand the content.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. I agree
I'm not sure there's much "science" to grade level analysis of a debate.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. "When she said it, it sounded good, but on paper..." Sorry, but no
No, to CNN anchors maybe it looked good all wrapped up in a purty package and winkin' at ya. But it sounded like a ridiculous muddle of tossed word salad. Yes, obfuscation and strained segues running away from the actual question and off toward some pre-fabbed topic on energy or maverickism creates more complicated syntax. But being a smokin' hot babe doesn't make up for a candidate who can talk with conviction while never straying from stale platititudes and bumper sticker slogans.
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cyndensco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
17. As I listened to Sarah Palin during the debate,
I often had difficulty following what she was saying. If my 8th grade English teacher would have corrected the transcript, she would have handed it back with an "awk" (awkward) after almost every sentence.

What struck me most was HOW she was saying what she was saying. Her habit of dropping the "g" from present participle verbs, saying "ya" instead of "you", and using words like "doggone", was written off as being folksy. Delivered by someone else, it would have been considered Ebonics.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
18. Misleading. What the grade-level analysis does is determine the minimum level of
linguistic competence required to fluently read a given body of work, with respect solely to sentence and word length, and with no respect whatsoever to content. Her sentences were longer. When you speak in garbled "also, and, also, of, but" sentences like she does when off-balance, you can expect that it would require a 10th-grader's level of linguistic competence to unravel your meaning.

Saying "she spoke at a 10th-grade level" implies that she spoke as well as a 10th-grader could. That is completely and utterly unsupported. The grade-level analysis has absolutely nothing to do with the competence of the speaker; it's aimed purely at estimating how difficult a text would be to read.

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. There you go again! Explaining it so simply that an idiot can understand it.
Well most idiots that still have a brain.

Yep! Even a 2 year could talk at the 10th grade or higher level if it is defined at the level a person needs to understand the person. Just like saying that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Sarah Palin has the IQ of Elmo or Big Bird.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Elmo and Big Bird are probably smarter than Palin.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. That's right - when you ramble on like without punctuation like an absynthed James Joyce on speed,
your theoretical grade level is gonna way up.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. You gotta make them FEEL your msg
it's how people FEEL that guides their choices NOT what they think. I've realized this watching life in general for about 20 years; it's why the right makes their Sesame Street 'faces' & tone of voice when selling their poisons. The truth IS important enough to speak thru the feelings channel.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. (shrug) Shows the limits of purely syntactical analysis.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. Her grammar sucked and she made up words. She memorized passages they taught her.
That is the reason for the abnormally high grade level. Parts of her speeches came straight of out textbooks. Analysis of speech for grade level measures the length of words, stuff like that but it does not measure whether you use the words correctly and it does not measure the elegance of your discourse. For instance, Biden is much more skilled in his use of rhetoric to emphasize points, devises like repetition---which will give him points off in a test of grade level but which will make his speech more persuasive and memorable for the audience.

I could cut and paste passages from famous philosophers at random and a test of grade level would rate it high, even if the result made no sense at all.
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