I understand that marriage equality is political suicide in this election.

[last1standing]

But will all the Democrats who say they believe in equal rights stand up for us in the GLBT community after the election is over? Or will we again see our rights pushed to the back of the bus because there's another election in 2010?

I'm all for Obama/Biden winning this election but when are the Democrats in office going to stand up for us the way we've stood up for them? How many more election cycles do we have to listen to our "friends" in the party tell us to shut up? How many times am I going to be told this is just a single issue?

Our civil rights aren't an "issue". They are a freedom that we have been denied our entire lives. This isn't something that we just want because you have it, it's something we need as human beings who live and love just like everyone else. This is our separate restrooms. This is our Dredd Scott decision.

So will you support our rights after this election is over in a tangible, honest manner or will you go back to telling us to shut up about our single issue?

[TTUBatfan2008]

1. It's political suicide in pretty much any election...

outside of the bluest states. It's an ignorant country and unfortunately people can't get it through their heads that it is discrimination.

[last1standing]

7. Are you implying that we should just shut up then?

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but I'd like clarification if you don't mind.

[TTUBatfan2008]

13. No, I'm not...

I'm pointing out the political reality. It's not just in the Presidential election that it's political suicide. It's in pretty much every other election. It's a societal problem. One thing that needs to change besides the politicians is the media. The media needs to do their job on this and educate people. Meanwhile, the politicians need to grow a pair and stand up for what's right regardless of whether it's political suicide. If enough of them stand up against it, the truth will eventually get through to average Americans.

Now, I want to point out something I have noticed today. People complaining about Obama and Biden while admitting they were Clinton supporters. This isn't about the Obama/Clinton thing so much as it's about supporting a corporate candidate who has a history of triangulating on these issues and then turning around and criticizing her opponent during the general election. I find this insanely hypocritical. If people are really serious about this issue, they had no business supporting Obama, Biden, Clinton, Edwards, or any of the other big names in the party. They're all a bunch of triangulators on a number of issues. Kucinich or someone like that is who these people should have been supporting, not Clinton.

[last1standing]

19. I'm glad you clarified.

Yes, some posters here tonight are just trying to demoralize but most of us aren't in that group. We supported our candidates (Edwards here) because we felt they were the best on several issues and we knew that none of them was going to come out for marriage equality before the election. I'm fine with that.

I'm asking if on November 5th, after Obama is safely elected, the members of DU and the Democratic party are going to come out and support us or are you going to tell us to shut up because we might rock the boat?

African-Americans did not get their civil rights by waiting until it was popular with a majority of the country. They got them because of the support of good people who were willing to stand up for a cause that was not their own and join hands in solidarity.

Where is our solidarity?

[TTUBatfan2008]

23. I hope...

something gets done, but then again I am cynical. I don't support Obama because I believe he's going to be such a huge agent of change. I support him because he's level-headed about foreign policy (my #1 issue as a young voter concerned about the draft, which WILL be coming back under McCain if he's elected), has more class in his bones than many politicians out there, and because I feel the Republicans have fucked our country over to the point that we simply cannot afford them. I'm also in a fairly racist part of the country so it always puts a smile on my face when I think about how much these people will be whining when Obama is President.

Let's hope that the Dems stand up for equality after this election, or at least in Obama's second term when he can do whatever he wants with no "fear" of not getting re-elected. The main thing here is speaking to the public in an honest fashion about this issue instead of letting the right wingers frame the issue. This issue is similar to abortion for me. It's none of the government's business, just like the government shouldn't be spying on its citizens.

[uppityperson]

17. That used to be said about giving women the right to vote, freeing slaves.

Times are changing, and we can make it happen.

[TTUBatfan2008]

18. That's the point I'm getting at...

it's always been political suicide and will be for a while longer, so the politicians should simply say "fuck it" and stand up for what's right. If enough of them stand up and show some strength on this issue, perhaps people will finally begin understanding the core discrimination involved here. The media also needs to take a stand on this. It's shameful that the media have pretty much EXCUSED ignorant voters by slapping a label on them ("blue collar values voters") instead of speaking to those people and trying to get through to them with the truth.

[Eric J in MN]

2. Obama opposes the proposition in California to ban gay marriage. NT

NT

[msallied]

3. I have never not supported GLBT rights. Ever.

But I don't like punching holes in the boat when we're just a mile from the shore either. I'm not saying you're doing this, but I'm seeing a lot of this today and it's disconcerting. I don't want the democrats to be the agents of their own defeat here. The tide is turning. We just have to get these theo-fascists out of fucking office first.

[last1standing]

4. I'm fully on board with Obama/Biden.

I just want to know if the party is going to support us when this election is over.

[msallied]

11. Oh hell yes I'll support you. I would love nothing more than to see fundies' heads explode.

It would make my life, in fact.

[LiberalHeart]

16. How's it punching holes in the boat? Folks will get mad at Obama/Biden and rush over to....

...McCain/Palin because they're oh-so-supportive of gay marriage? Puh-leze. Makes no sense to jump all over people who are being sent to the back of the bus because it isn't seemly to make a scene or the time isn't, um, right (just when is the time right? when everyone's attention is off the question of who'll lead us into a better future?). It's obvious that no one running this time around is right on this issue and they should all be called out on that failure.

[msallied]

20. Have you been reading all of these posts today?

I don't like to come right out and assume that they are trolls, but a lot of folks have been threatening to pull support over this, and yeah it concerns me a little bit. Not that they'll support McCain, but that they simply won't vote at all, which is essentially a vote for McCain.

I didn't say it wasn't "seemly" and I really wish people would fucking STOP trying to confuse what I'm saying with me trying to send you to the back of the bus. Jesus.

What's obvious is this. Some of you are on the verge of shooting us ALL in the foot because you can't wait a little bit longer to remove the cancer that is in the oval office before you start bashing the guy who is probably the BEST hope for the GLBT community that we've ever had in office. It's ridiculous. John McCain is no friend to the gay community and neither is Sarah Palin. I hope enough people who are deciding to pick NOW to get outraged about this keep that in mind on election day. This is fucking ridiculous.

[LiberalHeart]

25. Nope, I haven't been reading all the posts. But what I've seen looks like folks are piling on gays.

I don't like that.

If this issue is something that causes someone to feel they can't cast a vote, then that's how they feel. I don't think the way to persuade them to vote, and to vote for our guy, is by invalidating what is for them the largest issue. All that does is make people angry and offended.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. My response to you was regarding the holes in the boat remark. I didn't know you were talking about people who were going to stay home on election day. Knowing that now helps me see what you meant, though my reaction to someone saying they aren't going to vote is different from yours. My view is that our freedom to vote includes the freedom not to, and in a very real way not voting IS voting in this instance. It's protest against the available choices. Taken to the extreme, if all of us -- all liberals -- refused to vote until our candidates supported same sex marriage, you can be sure that we'd see that support emerge. So while you may think folks should set aside this important issue and concentrate on victory for our side, those who don't see it that way are probably thinking it wouldn't be a victory for their side because there's zero sign that any progress is being made. Quite the contrary: a vote for our candidates rewards those candidates for the stands they're taking. It would be extremely difficult for some to hand over that reward, and that's something I can both understand and respect.

Edited to fix typo.

[grantcart]

5. Yes the Obama/Biden team should address GLBT issues very early on.

I don't think that they should make it the very first issue but April is too late. We should expect some positive movement in February/March. I don't care which issue it is, whether it is supporting Federal employees that have same sex marriages or full equality in the military. Start early be consistent, persistent and smart.

[msallied]

8. I'd like to first see DOMA done away with for good.

That will make a LOT of headway, I think.

[justiceischeap]

12. Rumor has it that the first "gay issue" to be dealt with if Obama is elected

is Hate Crimes legislation.

[SwampG8r]

14. there you go again

how do you find so many ways into my brain?
i never even thought about the federal implications of this issue
obama as president could issue one executive order granting equal rights to all federal employees
it would be likened to truman desegregating the military

why cant i be smart too?:cry:

[rpannier]

6. The problem you will run into is...

they're constantly running for re-election.
No sooner will the election be over this November, that we'll be deluged with stories about 2010 and 2012.

They need to close down all the 24-hour news networks.

[msallied]

10. Oh my god would that not be the most amazing thing ever?

Probably the best thing that could ever happen for America second only to Obama winning the Presidency.

[SwampG8r]

9. put the pressure on

the first day they are in office for equal rights
its frankly not a disruptive change
it just acknowledges the facts of life
and if they address it early it will be less of a football
if it is left undone until the election cycle restarts
it will be left undone completely
so jump in early on this issue
i think a lot of the posters today accusing their fellow DUers of intolerance
will find themselves with a lot of company on this issue
but not til after hes elected

[LeftyMom]

15. I understand that civil rights are more important than this election.

If Obama/Biden don't, they don't deserve the responsibility of high office.

[msallied]

21. And what makes you think that Obama/Biden don't care about civil rights?

[LeftyMom]

24. Thier statements on marriage equality, for one.

When Sarah "Dominionist Party Doll" Palin agrees with your position, that should be a hint that you're completely fucking wrong.

[msallied]

26. Here's the problem with that.

Sarah Palin DOESN'T agree. In fact, she has no fucking idea what she's talking about and never said that she believed in granting civil rights. She blathered on about "tolerance," blah blah blah. This particular argument is so fucking disingenuous, it's almost like people are LOOKING for something to complain about here.

[Hippo_Tron]

22. Equal benefits, ENDA, and repeal of don't ask don't tell have to come before marriage equality

We've been out of power for 8 years and haven't had the chance to pass any of these things. Obama and Biden will take all of these steps in the right direction. After they do that, gay marriage might be more politically viable.

[No Elephants]

27. Advances for gays have come from state and federal courts, not from

Presidents or Governors or legislatures Get into the Oval Office and Governor's mansions people who will appoint liberal judges, then bring a test case.

BTW, why are you so sure hetero Dems are NOT standing by gays? Frankly, I don't think Clinton did, with his "Don't ask, don't tell" and his signing of the DOMA. However, some hetero rank and file Dems have been in the trenches along with you, donating, marching, writing our state legislators, marching, etc. I hope more and more will see the light and you are right to ask for more. However, please don't assume there are none now.

On edit: I should have written that the most dramatic advances for gays have come from state and federal courts. Some advances, like including gays in hate crime legislation, have indeed come from legislatures.

Also, for those who do want to help, but are not sure how, please define what "standing with you" means in terms of actual action items.

[Yuugal]

28. always been there, always will

Until everyone has equal rights....none of us does.

[IndianaJones]

29. it will fall by the wayside with nary a peep from the "base". nt.

[Honeycombe8]

30. The Prez of the U.S. is not in control of who gets married. Why are people obsessed

with the personal beliefs of the executive branch, as long as they are against amendments banning gay marriage and gay rights?

An official position on an issue is fair game. Trying to diss someone for a personal belief is beyond the pale and has little to do with governing the country.

My key issue is the environment and alternative energy. All I care about is that Obama is officially on board with that. Whether he personally believes in it, I don't care. As long as his official position is to do what his office needs to do to further that cause.

[Festivito]

31. Do you really understand what you say you understand?

Because, that's not what I'm seeing.

The day after our election we start another election cycle. Ask, how long did Clinton's Don't ask don't tell policy dog him. Eight years? Longer.

What you're attempting is to get a promise to possibly destroy our chances next time using cute expressions like back of the bus in return for your semi-pseudo-silence before election time. And, for what? So you can show your friends how you got someone to do something they should not have done?

You want how many election cycles added up for you. Then you add up the number of election cycles abolitionists had to endure, how many shut-ups, how many single-issue denigrations, how many civil-rights denials.

You don't have to shut up now or later. But, trying to coerce people in doing what is not good for the country or its people will damage everyone, including yourselves.

[treestar]

32. It'll probably be political suicide for quite a while

Maybe by 2020 a candidate for President can come straight out for it.

I don't know the answer, but we're having doubts about electing an African American! We're getting there, but it's not like it's so easy.

I say support Obama, he's more likely to have an attitude that will lead to better policies, but don't expect him to make it a priority and get elected!

And nobody says "shut up," that's overdramatizing. Or even so, what is so hard about putting it aside for the next five weeks, anyway, in your own interest. There are other people with issues too, Obama is not perfect on a lot of things, take health care.

I voted for Kucinich and Obama is a little to the right for my tastes, but I'm going to shut up about those things for now! Everyone should be like that about where they are pretty far left on any of the issues.