Almost everybody here supports the right of same sex couples to marry, why give us a hard time?

[CreekDog]

:shrug:

i'm not your enemy, but i am supporting Obama and Biden because i think they will move civil rights in the right direction and they are the only candidates in this contest who will do that this time around by getting elected.

[Pisces]

1. I support same sex marriage, and I also support Obama/ Biden

[Solon]

2. I have yet to see evidence of this...

I see plenty of people who say the government should "get out of the marriage business" others who support civil unions but not marriage, etc.

Also, its the entire attitude of DU's Straight-Only contingent to marginalize the concerns of GLBT people as often as possible. Frankly, YOU are the enemy.

[CreekDog]

3. I SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE.

ARE YOU UNABLE TO READ?

[Solon]

10. OK, fine, then let me show you a quote and the advice you should follow in it...

This quote is from the Zapatistas of Mexico:

“To those of you who are wondering if Marcos is homosexual: Marcos is a gay person in San Francisco, a black person in South Africa, an Asian person in Europe, a Chicano in San Isidro, an anarchist in Spain, a Palestinian in Israel, a Jew in Nazi Germany, an indigenous person in the streets of San Cristóbal… He is every minority who is now beginning to speak and every majority that must shut up and listen. He is every untolerated group searching for a way to speak, their way to speak. Everything that makes Power and the good consciences of those in power uncomfortable – this is Marcos."

The only change is that I bolded a part of this quote. I'm a member of the majority, and I've shut up for a time, and listened, why don't you do the same?

[CreekDog]

15. i never told you to shut up, what the hell is wrong with you?

.

[Solon]

18. No, I'm telling YOU to shut up...

Talk about misreading a post! :eyes:

[CreekDog]

21. why? why should i shut up?

because someone else told you to shut up? then it's fair to treat me as if i'm them?

can i fight for every gay person's rights except for yours? i want nothing to do with you.

[Solon]

27. Well, you did support the point of a poster who called gay people "Stupid Queers"...

If I called you a stupid fucking breeder, would you mind that?

[CreekDog]

29. yes because i don't breed

and i never even knew that term "st... q..." was used or i would be flaming them like you are doing to me.

and you are flaming me for something i didnt even know and didn't even do.

[Solon]

31. You didn't even read the thread title of a thread you responded too?

Why do I find that hard to believe. :eyes:

[CreekDog]

33. well go look at my post again

just look. and you're right, there's no right way to say that, i misspoke badly, but i never agreed with the OP there.

[Solon]

39. OK, maybe I flew off the handle, but then again, today is just the latest in a pattern on DU...

of outright hostility towards GLBT people, this has been going on for almost a year now, at least more overtly, and while I'm not blaming you personally, perhaps I did overreact because of your OP. Its kinda like a white person complaining about "reverse racism" it sounds silly and can be offensive.

[CreekDog]

45. okay. i hear you.

i wish my first idea was the "I support same sex marriage" poll (with only the yes choice), but it only came to mind after i started this thread.

[Solon]

53. Its just so frustrating at times for many people...

Think of not being able to vent without being attacked constantly, on ALL sides, day in and day out. Your life, the life of your loved ones, isn't valued by society, you are marginalized, your rights are denied you, and then, when you try to go to the one place you think is a safe haven to vent as needed, you still get slapped down.

Don't be so defensive, you and I are the majority, frankly the only reason why I'm arguing with you is that I've seen, with my own eyes, how GLBT people are treated so badly they try to attempt suicide to end it all! Its horrible, and to see an attitude such as so many on DU display, it infuriates me to no end.

[CreekDog]

54. i belong to a more marginalized group

believe me i know. don't assume i don't know.

[Peacetrain]

4. Okay, I have been watching this all day, and had a thread on it...

so what is the difference between civil unions and marriage? All state sanctioned marriages are civil unions. I went back and read and re-read what Biden said, and basically he said the marriages that are faith based, in churches (which for those who do not know, are not legal civil marriages) is the province of that faith community.

In other words, the government cannot force a faith body to change its belief system

sooo what am I missing??

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. The difference is the same as between "Whites Only" and "For Coloreds"

Jim Crow is Jim Crow, and separation is inherently unequal. If they are to have the exact same benefits, then call them the same thing. In this country, it has been "marriage" for more than three hundred years, so why not just call it "marriage"?

Added: No one is asking religious groups to change their rules. Catholic churches are still allowed not to marry divorced people or unbelievers, correct? Orthodox rabbis are not required to perform goyim weddings, right? ALLOWING same-sex couples to have the full range of rights that are granted by legal marriage does not, in any possible manner, require anyone to perform a ceremony that is against his or her religious teachings.

Also, consider churches that DO wish to perform same-sex marriages -- the Unitarian Universalist Association, the Metropolitan Community Churches, the United Church of Christ -- to finally act upon their religious beliefs. But they don't count, I suppose.

[Peacetrain]

19. That is right, some churches do.. I am a member of the UCC'S

But most churches don't. The problem right now is the lack of a unified civil code for all state. Heterosexual couples can get married in any state, move to another state, divorce there, sue for custody etc.. but gay couples cannot.

Marriage laws are state laws. The problem is getting the states to recognize other states marriage laws.

We could do a federal civil union, but that has never been a part of our constitution.

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. Respectfully, you may wish to learn something of the Constitution and the law

"The lack of a unified civil code for all states." The Founders were quite aware of what they were doing when they created a republic of states and not a unified central government. Had their wisdom guided us, I doubt very much that we would be faced with the worst constitutional crisis this country has ever known: an executive that has claimed unilateral authority and a Congress that is only too happy to abrogate it's own responsibility and allow the executive to excercise unilateral authority. The lack of a unified civil code for all states is the last protection we have against the tyranny of people like George W. Bush and his cronies. You should fall to your knees in gratitude.

As for "the problem" of getting the states to recognize other states' marriage laws, that is not a problem at all:

Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof. -- Article IV, Section 1, United States Constitution. For more than two centuries under the Constitution, Congress has recongized "marriage" as nationwide, with every state and the federal government accepting and acknowledging as valid the marriages of every other state, territory and posession. Until the "Defense" of Marriage Act -- signed into law by President Clinton rather than vetoed -- is upheld by the US Supreme Court, more than two hundred years of judicial precedent holds that a legal marriage enacted in one state is legal everywhere and under every set of laws at all levels. There is no problem.

And no, we could not do a federal civil union. Article I, Section 8 gives a very detailed list of what Congress is allowed to do. The Tenth Amendment states very clearly that what power Congress is not expressly given by the Constitution rests with the states and with the people. Unless you wish to trash the US Constitution and start all over again, a federal civil union cannot happen because it would be patently illegal.

[Peacetrain]

43. There is a lot I don't know, I will be the first to admit,, but

Iowa judge causes stir in granting gay divorce

By Kathleen Burge, Globe Staff, 12/13/2003

A judge in Sioux City, Iowa, has granted a divorce to two women legally united in Vermont, becoming one of the first judges outside that state to dissolve a civil union.
ADVERTISEMENT


Judges in the rest of the country have tentatively tackled the thorny issue of how to dissolve Vermont civil unions in states that do not recognize legal partnerships for gay and lesbian couples -- but so far, most same-sex divorces have survived legal challenges.

In Massachusetts, where the state's highest court ruled last month that homosexual couples have the legal right to wed, analysts predict that married same-sex couples could face the same legal obstacles if they move away and wish to divorce.

In Iowa's Woodbury County District Court, Jeffrey A. Neary's decision to grant the lesbian couple a divorce was quickly criticized as judicial activism. But Neary, a recently appointed judge, said he wasn't trying to expand rights for same-sex couples.

"At least in my way of seeing it, I'm not changing state law here," he said in an interview. "I'm not recognizing marriages. I'm recognizing that Vermont has recognized this ."

Neary said he drew on legal principles of fairness when he allowed the divorce of two women, who had both agreed to the settlement before him and did not have any children.

But when the divorce became public, Neary was attacked by some state politicians. Iowa is one of 37 states that have adopted the Defense of Marriage Act, which restricts marriage to the union of one man and one woman.

"The judge was wrong," said state Senator Neal Schuerer, a Republican. "If judges want to flout the law like this, I can guarantee you we will move to recall them."

[leftofcool]

8. "faith based"?

All marriages are based on faith, even if that is simply faith in one another. Marriages performed in either churches or outside or in the judges chamber still requires a marriage license issued by the state of residence.

[Peacetrain]

13. No you can be married in a church without a license..

but it is not a legal civil union. Now 999.9% of people who are getting married in churches are getting licenses to have a civil union also for legal rights, which by the way, all people should be able to do.

[leftofcool]

16. Then it would not re recognized by the state

unless of course, it is a common law state which I think has sort of gone by the wayside.

[Peacetrain]

22. That is right. In order to have your faith union recognized

outside of the church, the minister has to be registered to do marriages. And you have to get a civil license from the state. There are no civil rights guaranteed in the faith community marriages, it is tradition

[leftofcool]

23. Then which "faith communities" was Biden taking about?

Even most Amish communities now get marriage license from their respective states. The Wiccan communities who perform handfastings instead of weddings also make sure the couple have a license

[Peacetrain]

25. See that is what has me so confused by this. I went back and read

Bidens statement, and I am not seeing what everyone is upset about. Biden was totally supportive of civil unions.

[leftofcool]

30. But, he is against "gay marriage"

And therein lies the problem

[Peacetrain]

36. leftofcool what is the difference?

If a hetro civil union is a marriage, and a gay civil union is a marriage, outside of what the churches define as marriage which no politician has any province over, what is the difference.

I am just flummoxed, outside of church traditions, that are available in a few churches, what is the difference?

If they both acknowledge the commitment of two people, and the legal rights involved, what is the difference.

Now there are real issues of state by state acknowledgment of a marriage in one state being recognized in another. That is a real problem.

[leftofcool]

41. I think the gay community sees it as a problem

when candidates say, "I am for civil unions but I am against gay marriage." Or, "I am for civil unions but marriage is between a man and a woman." For you and I, civil unions and marriage may mean the same thing, but I believe those in the gay community feel, the bias is still there.

[Peacetrain]

46. I see what you mean.. words do matter.. and that word "marriage"

even if it is the same thing..

[dickthegrouch]

58. This is Marriage....

This is what we are talking about that is denied to same sex couples:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm

Repeat after me: "Civil Unions are not marriage".

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. No such thing as a "legal civil union" to begin with

Under the laws of every state, territory and posession, it is called "marriage." That religious institutions use the same word is irrelevant.

[cliffordu]

60. If I believed people here were the enemy, I sure the fuck find a new place to hate.

[liberalmuse]

5. I support gay marriage, and gays just fucking, no strings attached...

but I sure as hell don't want McCain for Preznit. Please don't ask me to choose! I cringed when Biden said that at the debate. I wish he and Obama had the guts to say 'I believe in gay marriage.', but it could be, they don't. They don't believe in demonizing gays like the right does, so I guess I'll give them that. We have a long way to go, but we aren't going to get there expecting nothing less than Ivory soap candidates in a country that just got done with 8 years of George W-fucking Bush.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. "Almost everybody"?

No, they do not. I think all the pissing and moaning about "Oh, shut up about your special interests, we are tired of your whining" makes that crystal clear.

[leftofcool]

9. It does appear so.

[CreekDog]

11. that doesn't mean they don't support them

we can have a candidate that supports everything dear to us, or we can have a winning candidate.

we don't have a society yet where we can have both right now.

and i am in a group that is more screwed over than any of the others here. so there.

[Jersey Devil]

12. Thanks for realizing that. Now STFU or we might change our minds

Shit, we feel awful that gays and lesbians do not have equal rights with other Americans, but do you have to beat the people who agree with you over the head with it 24/7 and fill page after page with it every forken time you are offended?

Enough! We have serious work to do between now and November 4th.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grantcart]

20. The reason is that people feel frustrated that the Democratic Party cannot lead

with what is a clear civil rights issue like it did when it was on race.


People know that to make it a major issue would lose us CD and some Senate seats, it could cost us the presidency.


Everyone knows that we have to think strategically but it is still frustrating that we live in a country where there is such a religious Taliban that we even have to use such calculations, but that is where it is.


The main difference between same sex marriages and your favorite issue which you may have had to leave behind (like better gun control or elimination of capital punishment) is that Gay Americans have to live with this civil rights deprivation every single day. It is frustrating and I understand it.


Of course we cannot make it the issue it should be and have to work on other fronts, including the courts. People are going to be upset. They should be upset. And the sooner we win the sooner we put this issue in the ground permanently.

[Pithlet]

34. I agree with you.

I think you nailed it. And it's why it's so awful to see DUers lash out and flail at our GLBT DUers. They have every right to be upset. I know that the political atmosphere means that sometimes our Dem leaders have to be calculating for us to have a chance. But I don't feel good about it. It burns me when I see people flapping at them and screaming "Shut up! Shut up!", and worse things.

It's bad enough we can't or won't treat their issues with the importance they deserve. I can't imagine going through that level of hate and discrimination, and seeing my own party abandon me because it would be political suicide not to, and then when my feelings are hurt and I express that dismay, get screamed and shouted at. I can't fathom it.

[grantcart]

57. yes and on the other hand we have to be smart and not push the politicians

to get too far ahead of the public sentiment.

I am very hopeful that settling it in the courts will bring it to a speedy resolution.

[markevil]

24. I'm not gay.....not that theres anything wrong with that

It is never justifiable to deny someone who differs from the majority the EXACT same rights as the majority... Even changing the name separates people. It is done out of fear and a sense that we need to categorize people and place them on rungs in society..
I challenge anyone here ( I'm new so go easy on me ) to tell me how two gay people marrying diminishes my 13 year marriage to my wife in any way.

[TexasObserver]

26. I support same sex marriage, and I also support Obama/Biden

[Fran Kubelik]

28. I'm not giving you a hard time.

Most of us are just explaining why we are hurting today. And then sadly there's a bunch of people telling us they don't want to hear it - we should just shut the fuck up. And that frankly is dismaying.

[CreekDog]

35. don't shut up

:hug:

[Beregond2]

37. You know what?

I'm gay, and the loud-mouth gays who get their panties in a twist every time a politician doesn't say exactly what they want make me want to slap the shit out of them. I am embarrased to be in the same minority. They have no historical perspective, no concern for anything but the giant chip on their shoulder.

Equal rights? Sure. That means civil unions. Then you can define your "relationship" any way you want. All this wailing over a word and squealing about "seperate but equal" degrades our movement. How dare you compare the current situation of gays with that of blacks before the civil rights movement? There is NO comparison. I am ashamed for you.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fran Kubelik]

40. Not from this squawker.

:shrug:

Not at all. I'm sorry you feel that way. You're wrong about that.

[PeaceNikki]

42. Bullshit. The "squawkers" are also some of the people that are supporting Obama in REAL life

by giving their time, money and efforts to get him elected. They have a right to be disappointed that their civil rights are being tossed aside as some afterthought that isn't worthy of discussion. They don't deserve to be told to shut up. We should all stand behind them and fight for their rights.

[apocalypsehow]

47. Your response tells me two things: you didn't read my reply, and my reply is spot-on.

Thank you for the affirmation. :thumbsup:

[PeaceNikki]

48. Not even sure what you mean by that. But please don't injure your arm patting yourself on the back

for whatever awesome zinger you think you threw at me.

[apocalypsehow]

49. It'll be alright, promise. Obama/Biden 2008.

Don't forget to vote!

Peace.

:hug:

[PeaceNikki]

51. Oh, I'll be there and I'll bring 10 of my friends

And I'll work hard for the campaign in the upcoming weeks, I assure you.

I felt the energy of this momentum firsthand here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6872177

I'm fully on board.

[last1standing]

44. Maybe because it hurts to know that no major party is willing to treat you as a whole human being.

How would you feel if you were told that you couldn't marry the person you love because of your skin color or your religion? And what if you were forced to support and vote for someone who told you that because the other person running wanted to take even more rights away?

Look, there aren't many people who aren't going to vote for Obama/Biden based on Joe's comment last night, but it still hurts to know that you can't marry the person you love because of hatred and intolerance.

[CreekDog]

50. i know, but don't take it out on me (you haven't but some people here have)

ever since Harvey Milk and Mayor Moscone were shot and my mom sat me down and told me to accept all people period I have tried to do just that.

[last1standing]

56. Just like every time before, this will die down.

For the GLBT community, it really does come down to a choice between the guy who won't support us and the guy who will persecute us. We'll support Obama but it doesn't stop us from wanting our civil rights movement. We want to know that our jobs can't be taken away just because we love someone of the same sex and that we can't lose our homes because of our orientation.

And we would like to feel that the party that we give so much to cares enough about us to help us force the change on the top of the ticket after the election. We need to know that we're not just being taken for granted year after year. As we've seen tonight, there are way too many Democrats, even here at DU, who don't think our rights are important.

It's all just more salt in the wound.

[LiberalHeart]

52. Don't you know that same sex marriage threatens my fucked up, broken straight marriage?

[amborin]

55. i'm not gay; i support same-sex marriage; to push for this during the campaign means a sure loss

[treestar]

59. Exactly. Obama doesn't go far enough for me on health care

and I haven't made main posts accusing him of "throwing us under the bus."

Yeah, it's a matter of civil rights, but geez, we have to work with the electorate we have. They still think singer payer health care is "socialist" so I don't expect Obama could win with it. I support Kucinich on that too, but I know that if her were the nominee, he could not have won.

You've got to work towards the right things, but there is no progress, and even regression, where you yell at the people helping you for not getting there fast enough.

[Froward69]

61. I am Divorced...

...the beginning of the end result of marriage. alimony child support, over compensation for your ex's bashing of your reputation with your kids. Dragging out all the pain and agony of a fairy tale turned to a horror flick.

So I wonder why any one wants to get married in the first place... To me, it's like getting in line to give away half of your self.
Believing things will remain the same is a farce!
So I believe everyone has the right to fuck up their lives as much as they want.
I could care less about what you do in a bedroom. with whom or with what body parts.
:rant:
there fore Gay couples have (to me) and should be given the legal right to be as miserable as the rest of society.

no joke, fuck up as much as you want. please just stop complaining about it.

I am hetero, too old and tired of chasing pussy. Unconditional love with your partner, (such as with your kids) is ideal. however unattainable.
:mad: