700 Billion. That's almost $3000 for every man woman and child in America

[walldude]

Now I have explained this in other threads but I figured one more time so I'd have a link to post instead of having to repeat myself... over and over...

I am truly sorry if this economic crisis is affecting you. But do you really feel it is right to take $15000 from me to fix it (3 grand for each person in my house)? I work hard for my money. The only debt I have is unavoidable medical bills. I have never taken money I didn't earn. Never took welfare or unemployment, no matter how desperate I was. I never borrowed money(unless you count all those 20's I borrowed from XOKcowboy), I don't use credit cards and I don't own a house. My car is paid for, my landlord is in good shape, I have no investments as I have said in previous threads there is no way this bailout can "help" me. So can someone explain to me why I am an "asshole" or a "freeper" for not wanting someone to STEAL $15000 of money that I earned with the sweat on my brow to fix someone else's financial problems? I understand that all people are not like me, that people like to take risks, like to borrow money they don't have. I have no problem with that. But a RISK is just that a RISK. You MAY LOSE. Now it seems to me that I am being berated for not being a good little American overspending consumer, and for not wanting to bailout the people who were.

Life is truly hilarious. You do the right thing. You live within your means, you stay out of debt, you make sure you don't owe anyone anything, and you end up bailing out the people who like to gamble and end up losing.

All this talk of job losses, home foreclosures and businesses going under is just speculation. Why don't we just wait and see what happens. Then if these things actually happen LET THE GOVERNMENT BAIL THEM OUT FOR A CHANGE. Let the government bail out the hard working little guy for a change. Maybe some of that money will "Volcano" up to the upper class. They are all about trickle down, how about Volcano up?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Do you have a job?

If you do, that's what you risk losing. And all of those BS statements about never owing anyone money or taking handouts would very, very soon be at an end.

[walldude]

50. Self employed with good job security.. should have put that in the OP

[anneboleyn]

54. Do you really expect your self employment to survive a serious depression? Highly optimistic, if so

[walldude]

85. No but no ones job will survive a serious depression.

And we aren't in a serious depression. I don't see one coming either. My gig will survive almost anything else though. That's not the point though. The point is give the bailout to the people not Wall Street. I bet all these defaulted loans could have been paid off for much less that 300 billion.

[soulcore]

2. Here, here!

This sentence says it all, "You do the right thing. You live within your means, you stay out of debt, you make sure you don't owe anyone anything, and you end up bailing out the people who like to gamble and end up losing."

[Occam Bandage]

7. It isn't the people who rubber-stamped subprime mortgages who are going to suffer.

It's America at large. Depressions hurt *everyone,* and the rich least of all.

[soulcore]

11. Please show me the proof that this will lead to a depression.

It will break Wall Street, yes. And some people will lose investments, hence the RISK of investing.

In the long run it will be much less painful than sticking a $700 Billion band-aid on a crumbling system, taken from the pockets of the poorest among us.

[Occam Bandage]

13. Wait. You admit that it will break Wall Street, and then ask

for evidence that destroying the financial core of the economy will lead to damage to the economic health of the nation? Again: Wall Street is not in a vacuum. When financial companies go down, so do the businesses that rely on their credit, and so do the workers who have retirement programs.

[soulcore]

20. Maybe our economy shouldn't be based on credit then. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

23. Feel free to come up with and implement such a system.

Please do it in another country, though. I happen to like having a job, and would prefer not losing it because you have issues with capitalism.

[soulcore]

24. Credit does not equal capitalism.

Under your logic the FED should just print more money and hand it out on Wall Street.

That should solve everything, no?

[Occam Bandage]

25. No, it's simply the foundation of the entire world economy, and has been for centuries.

At this point, what you're doing is akin to a doctor looking at a hemorrhaging patient, and saying, "you know, I think blood is the problem here. Let's get him a system of oxygen perfusion that doesn't involve blood."

[soulcore]

31. That's a strawman argument.

The president himself said they have had the legislation for months. Everyone saw this coming. And they were greedy. This isn't a surprise for Wall Street, they are simply making it a big deal and threatenign "the little guy" to get what they want.

Wall Street wants free money, no oversight, no regulation, and no cap on executive compensation.

Explain to me how trading THAT for $700 Billion makes any sense.

PS - Up until 1913 we traded on GOLD, not credit.

[Occam Bandage]

37. No, it is not. "Credit is important" is not a straw man.

I don't even know what you mean by that. I have no idea what you mean by your repeated figure of $7 billion. And I have no idea what you're talking about on "no oversight/no regulation/no cap," since none of those were in the bill that was voted on today. And I certainly don't know what the gold standard has to do with my point about the importance of loans in the post-Industrial-Revolution world economy. I'm getting the notion that you don't know shit.

[soulcore]

42. my mistake, I forgot the two zeros.

It's so much money even I can't believe it. If an economic collapse is SO imminent then why not halt spending on the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a few billion a day we would have left over.

Why not temporarily freeze all wages and prices? Why take off for a fucking holiday if it's SO bad.

Because it's a bluff.

They are holding us hostage, with the threat of a great depression and job loss, in order to fleece the American Taxpayer one more time before "their" man leave office.

[msallied]

41. That is a beautiful analogy. Do you mind if I borrow it?

[Occam Bandage]

43. Go right ahead.

[soulcore]

44. And I see it as so...

The patient has a parasitic infection. This parasite eats blood (money).

This infection is effectively eating up all the blood inside the patient. Your solution is to line up blood donors to feed the parasites more blood.

It's not gonna' work, you are only prolonging the inevitable.

[torbird]

68. Gold Standard?

1. credit is what built this country. In fact, many historians credit Alexander Hamilton with inventing the first international debt market when he sold US debt to finance the early government. Later, it was the sale of American debt to Britain that gave the United States the money to purchase Louisiana. Suck on that, for a minute.

2. We did NOT "trade in gold" up to 1913. We traded in currency. That was theoretically backed by gold. But, and you may have heard of this, most business was (and is) done by means of credit. Accounts. Letters from banks. Checks. Personal guarantees. You know...credit. (just as a --French-- literary example, did you ever wonder how the Count of Monte Cristo would have exacted his revenge on the banker if he'd had to guarantee all his funds in gold?)

3. "maybe we should have an economy without credit." Are you serious? NO! Do you not get that all of us are able to live better lives through the magnified purchasing power of our personal credit???

Do you own a home? Did you pay for it in gold?? How about a car? Have you ever financed anything?? Do you believe that 99% of the people in America could afford to buy everything in cash? What would the alternative look like...?

Anyway, to the original poster: you're a bit of a self-satisfied prig. As the child of two self-employed people who will be hit very, very hard by this financial crisis, let me say "fuck you," you gloating prick.

[walldude]

78. No fuck you you pathetic little fucking weenie

Go borrow some more money, it's done so well so far. Asshole. I'm sure you can get a credit card with 28% interest. :rofl:

Only on DU and FR can a man be called a fucking prick for being honest and living within his means. :rofl: :rofl:

[redqueen]

84. Jesus.

Not singling you out... just... *sigh*

[walldude]

86. Did you read the post that I responded to?

THe guy did single me out and told me to go fuck myself.


Anyway, to the original poster: you're a bit of a self-satisfied prig. As the child of two self-employed people who will be hit very, very hard by this financial crisis, let me say "fuck you," you gloating prick.

[redqueen]

88. Yes, I did...

like I said... not singling you out... the whole exchange is what I meant to refer to... not just one side or the other.

Oh and by the way... don't want you to miss this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4124428

[walldude]

94. Thanks...

I'll read that and head out of here. I can't do this as much as I used to. Too much animosity, and I hate what it does to me. I think I'll go play my guitar, maybe I can get a song out of this... Peace

[redqueen]

57. Hear hear.

I've seen that same kind of "logic" used to argue for NOT voting. The system is bad, so just don't vote! Don't "legitimize" it!

:wtf: :crazy:

*sigh*

[redqueen]

12. "Depressions hurt *everyone,* and the rich least of all."

Hell, they *benefit* the rich. They get to load up on all those assets which will be available at fire-sale prices.

[martymar64]

60. Theyll' suffer too, but in a different way

The fat cats will have to worry about the next Depression's growth industry, kidnapping!
When the rich have all the money, they and their families will become targets for kidnappers for ransom.

"What Mr. Hilton? You won't pay ransom to free Paris? How about if we send you her ears and fingers in a box, will that change your mind?"

[redqueen]

3. Yes. Bubble up.

And it actually works, unlike Voodoo Economics.

The consumer dollar is 3/4 of the engine that drives the economy. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that investment dollars do MUCH less than dollars actually SPENT by people who NEED the money.

*sigh*

[Eric J in MN]

4. I agree. $700 billion is too much to spend because maybe...

...something bad will happen if we don't.

Maybe it won't.

[Occam Bandage]

5. "Fuck you. I've got mine."

Hope you don't lose your job. It's not like depressions lead to unemployment or anything.

[soulcore]

9. You're fear-mongering. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

10. Pointing out that actions have consequences is not "fear-mongering."

Did you fail to notice the 777-point drop today? Did you fail to notice the collapses of WaMu, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros, Wachovia, AIG, and Merrill Lynch? Did you think all of that was happening in a vacuum, and that financial crises didn't affect main street?

[soulcore]

16. Main street has felt the pinch longer than anyone.

Now that Wall Street is feeling it too, they want free money from the taxpayer.

It's economic ransom, as described beautifully in Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine".

[Occam Bandage]

21. The fact that average Americans have seen a recession is not an excuse to make things worse.

[martymar64]

66. The Bailout will lead to hyperinflation

The Fed will print more money and the value of the dollar will plummet to below peso level.
Then say hello to $200 loaves of bread and $500/gal gasoline.
Credit won't matter because everything will be too expensive to buy, regardless of "cash" on hand. The only growth industry will be kidnapping, ala 1970's Brazil.

[Occam Bandage]

108. No, it will not. Ron Paul is an idiot. Yesterday over a trillion dollars were lost when the market

dropped 700 points. Is that leading to hyperdeflation? No. 0.7T wouldn't make up that one day's losses when it comes to the amount of currency in circulation.

[TNMOM]

27. 'actions have consequences' --- so do risks.

Are the risks you've taken in the market or with credit cards/debt consequence-free?

[Occam Bandage]

36. Indeed they do. However, we're moving beyond the point where the people being hurt

are the people who set up bad loans. How many people do you think should lose their jobs to "teach risky investors a lesson?" One million? Five million? How many months of nationwide recession do you think would add up to a good "punishment" for lenders who disguised subprime loans as AA securities?

[walldude]

53. So your solution is to bail out both the people who got screwed and

the people who did the screwing?

[Occam Bandage]

109. Saying "let's not fix the economy because it would help the people who did the screwing too,"

is a bit like saying "let's not have a health-care system because that would help both people who got hurt and people who hurt other people."

[TNMOM]

28. 'actions have consequences' --- so do risks.

Are the risks you've taken in the market or with credit cards/debt consequence-free?

[redqueen]

29. I'm not even arguing anymore.

I've seen so many people saying "whatever, I'm fine"... I guess they think their measley little job is safe.

*sigh*

[PVnRT]

48. The more I read, the more I think

"I hope these little fuckers lose their jobs and everything they own."

This is how ugly it's getting. It's only going to get worse.

[redqueen]

55. Very ugly... and unnecessarily so.

I guess it's impossible for those types to disagree with someone without dehumanizing, insulting and belittling the other person in the process.

Sad.

[walldude]

58. Pot meet kettle.

What are you kidding me?

[redqueen]

63. Are you taking my "measley job" as a direct attack on you?

:wtf:

[walldude]

82. Yes but having re-read that I guess I could have taken it wrong and did!

Actually I should apologize because you are the one person in this thread who actually read the whole post and understood what I was saying. That was my bad and I apologize. There have been too many "fuck you's to me in this thread. I never thought being honest and living within my means would piss so many people off. Damn internet.

[redqueen]

87. I don't know why so many people are being so nasty...

I've done it before myself, and am ashamed of that.

Hopefully those incidents will be fewer and farther between as time goes on. I do like to learn from mistakes.

Good luck with your discussion. Peace.

[walldude]

56. So that's how you see this? You see a person who lived honestly

and within his means all his life and you berate them for not wanting to cough up their money to pay for people who didn't? I'm all for bailing out retirement accounts and people who are losing their homes, I'll give anything I can to help them. But the people who caused this, can go shit in their hats.

Oh and my "measly little job" that I spent 26 years building up is quite safe. I apologize for working hard and building up my knowledge and skills to the point where I can support myself with out the help of others. I know it's a crime.

[redqueen]

59. Where did I berate you?

No, I'm talking about people who are oversimplifiying this and seemingly not realizing that in asking that we just "let it burn", that they themselves (and everyone else who isn't already pretty wealthy) will suffer for it.

Or maybe not though, right? Let's just let it burn, and see what happens.

Honestly, after all the ugliiness and viciousness that's come out in this "debate", I don't even care anymore. I've lived in third-world conditions before. My kids can learn to do the same. Whatever. (Sorry, don't mean to be "fearmongering".)

[walldude]

83. You didn't... my bad...

After defending myself so many times I automatically judge things before getting the full context. Which I guess should make me be a bit nicer to the people who are doing that very thing to me.

[lukasahero]

112. I am so right there with you

Now I'm just reading in appalled horror at all the "it's all about me" threads...

:hug:

[anneboleyn]

45. Yes, atiitudes like the op's are what make my hubbie and I want to move to Europe where "community"

is valued more than "ME ME ME." That's why they have the NHS in England, etc. -- and say what you will about the NHS, at least they have health care, excellent public transportation, and other services for residents like childcare.

These are more mature cultures than the U.S. where "I got mine" rules the day, to the detriment of the health of the society as a whole. There is a concern there (Western Europe) for the whole of the community that there isn't here.

[anneboleyn]

47. Oops, should be "attitudes!" Typo. n/t

[walldude]

61. Try reading the OP. I advocated helping out the people who got screwed

and blowing off those that did the screwing. But don't let the fact that I advocated helping out people who lost retirement accounts and had their homes foreclosed on ruin your little diatribe. If you are for bailing out wall street, more power to you. Just don't do it with my money.

[walldude]

51. I won't and it's not fuck you unless you got us into this situation..

I advocated bailing out the people. Not the people who will bail out the people. And it's funny how you try to live right without owing someone and some smart ass thinks that that means fuck you when you aren't willing to pay for someone elses mistakes.

[Barack_America]

6. If we can get some serious Wall Street regulation into it, it'll be the best $3000 I've ever spent.

[Eric J in MN]

8. Today's bill didn't regulate Wall St.

It just gave it $700 billion.

[msallied]

22. Um, actually it was $250 billion with heavy Congressional oversights and WH approval needed

for additional $$. But maybe you missed that part.

[Eric J in MN]

30. Oversight of a fund which gives money to Wall Street...

...isn't regulation of Wall Street.

They didn't ban any risky financial products, or anything like that.

[msallied]

38. It was a damn sight better than the carte blanche Paulson bill!

Was it perfect? NO. But without any intervention, we're FUCKED.

[martymar64]

69. Congressional oversight? That's the biggest joke of the day!

They can't oversee shit. They are the most toothless bunch of cowards I've ever seen. They should predicate the bailout on death penalties for all the CEO's and speculators that got us in this mess. That's the way China would deal with it. Kill all those motherfuckers and seize all of their assets for the bailout fund.

[walldude]

64. GIANT IF! That's like my example of "trickle down" we have been following

Reagans trickle down economy for 20 years and the fact is the people with the money don't let any of it go anywhere but in their pockets. We need some damn trickle up for a change.

[msallied]

14. I'll pony up my share if it means my husband can keep his job.

I don't want to eat the rich. I just want to make sure my family can eat.

[Stuart G]

15. So What....?

If that were inflation adjusted...If 500 dollars for every man, woman and child in the U.S. in l939 could have avoided WWII and the carnage that followed..would it have been worth that?
..Now no one knows what the fall out will be. No one..but it could be a world wide depression which could lead to chaos..
..Are you willing to take the chance???

and I might add............it is not someone else's financial problems..it is our financial problem..our, not someone else's} Perhaps this is not clear to you... but this, or something like this will pass by the end of this week.. It is the credit of the U.S.A what is at stake...sorry, but that is it, and 47 trillion in investments behind it..everywhere in the world..

[msallied]

19. Oh but don't you know? He's got his. As long as he's okay, the rest of us can be sold down the river

No problemo. That's American "individualism" for ya.

[anneboleyn]

49. EXCELLENT POINT! Weak U.S. economy is BAD news on so many levels.

[martymar64]

72. Well,, I'm broke, so I'm not paying shit!

And if any Federal stooge comes to try to shake me down, they'll be coming away empty handed and likely with a fat lip.

[scheming daemons]

17. It wouldn't have cost $700B.... the Treasury would've gotten most, if not all, back

Over time.


Just like with the S&L bailout.

[chicagoexpat]

35. & they wait, & it's not 700 BILLION they need, but 700 TRILLION... & then it's 1929 all over again

I cannot believe how ignorant the most educated country in the world is

[martymar64]

74. Just like the $ we sent to Iraq?

How much of that just disappeared? $9-10 Billion? You neocons and economic royalists are a real hoot. You pissed your cash away on bad investments and expect us to cover you? Fuck that.

I've read you're posts all day but you never mention hyperinflation that will be the direct result of the bailout. Well, if you're so gung ho for the bailout, you can pay my share, I'm broke already and have no investments or equity.

Why don't you just come over and try to get my money from me?

[high density]

18. I'd rather have it in McDonalds apple pies!

[Left Is Write]

26. You never took money you didn't earn. Like unemployment.

I took unemployment benefits in 1992, and I'll have you know, I earned every fucking penny of it, pal. Paid taxes on it too.

[weezie1317]

40. OP doesn't seem to know that unemployment is insurance based and not paid by tax dollars. ()

[walldude]

65. Yeah the OP is an idiot.

The OP also works for a fucking living. Never took anything he didn't work for. I may have paid into unemployment but never needed it.

[Left Is Write]

111. So be thankful you didn't need unemployment.

But don't you dare suggest I didn't work for or earn my unemployment benefits, and I paid taxes right back into the system. Unemployment benefits are not welfare.

[chicagoexpat]

32. I wish there was a way that only people like u would lose their job for throwing bombs

Such rampant ignorance has consequences

[anneboleyn]

52. Does OP expect to ever draw on social security? What if you become disabled, OP? Or do you have

millions set aside to account for such possibilities?

[martymar64]

76. You got it wrong.

The neocon plan is to hand over all of our cash so they can claim there is no more for SS or for any other social programs. Think of IMF/World Bank loan terms imposed on the Third World. The "investor class" is raping the people and you're the one prying our legs open.

[chicagoexpat]

89. I'll stand w/ Warren Buffet & Obama; you can stand with Rush Limbaugh & the Freepers

[martymar64]

96. No, you stand with Bush/ Cheney

They want this money for their last big score before they leave. If you want to give them all you money, go right ahead. Just don't promise them mine as well.
If you want my money, come on down and try to take it.

[chicagoexpat]

99. It's mind-boggling stupid to think Bush & Cheney WANTED this bill... they fought tooth & nail

against the Democratic provisions, but were forced to support it to avoid meltdown

How can you have a discussion w/ such ignorance?

[walldude]

92. What does any of that have to do with the bailout?

Or my op? If I become disabled I'm fucked. If anyone in my family gets hurt I'm fucked. Read between the lines. I have lived as honestly and debt free as I could and it's put me constantly one big injury away from doom. Funny though, I bet if something bad happens the government isn't going to come and BAIL ME OUT.

[walldude]

81. I see, honest hard workers should lose their jobs.

Good plan.

Such rampant stupidity is amazing.

[chicagoexpat]

90. GOP Congressmand & their supporters deserve to lose ur jobs, if it can save the rest of us who care

about America, rather than ideological nonsense

[musicblind]

33. By your theory, people who don't have kids shouldn't have to help pay for school systems n/t

[walldude]

71. Wrong. By my theory the schools should get all the money they need.

So should health care, homeless should be fed and housed no child should go without medical attention they need . People losing their homes should get grants, CEO's who collapse companies should have their money taken from them to refill the retirement coffers they drained. My theory is I'm happy to help people who need it. But people who spend their lives gambling on the markets, making stupid bad investments, and screwing anyone they can get their hands on ought to have to pay when they lose their bets. But don't let that get in the way of your point.

[bunnies]

34. Many people have already lost more than 3k per person.

You know.. in the little things like their 401k's. And many of them didnt do anything "wrong" either. Oh well, fuck em.

[mzmolly]

39. We did not accept the original terms of the bailout. We implemented

an equity stake which, according to people like Warren Buffet would pay off in the long run.

[JuniperLea]

46. I've lost half of everything I had...

My 401k is less than half what it was, and I don't expect to see any of it now. I have an IRA in the same situation. My house has lost ALL of its equity. My car is paid off.

I stand to lose everything, and probably will.

I'm against the bailout because I don't believe it will work. This has gone global with two European banks failing today and several more in line... and many more US banks are on the short list too.

We were lied into a war, lied into less regulation, now fear-mongers are clamoring to kiss the collective ass of those who lied to us. I call bullshit.

If BushCo told me the sky was blue, I'd bet my last dollar that it wasn't. These people have robbed us blind, and now we're supposed to give them even more money because they are telling us to be afraid? And all of this happened just now? Puhleese!

This has been a long time coming. And it will be a long time before things settle down.

We would have to borrow the $700 Billion anyway because we don't have it! Why should we do that?

[seabeyond]

62. WHY doesnt your side ever talk about the money being paid BACK. i keep hearing

this argument with no mention that the money can be paid back in full, at profit or half. they dont know but it is NOT 700b given away

if you cant argue honestly then you have a losing position

[walldude]

67. Yeah it can be "paid back"

and Iraq has WMD's. The economy is fundamentally strong. We don't torture. You are in no danger of a warrentless wiretap. Hell lets go on. Valerie Plame was not an agent. The justice department firings had nothing to do with politics. Sorry if I don't buy the bullshit that comes out of washington anymore. I've had enough.

[seabeyond]

70. you want to state an unkown as fact. but there is history for the other side, and there is history

for this position.

you want to claim to know for a fact there is not this crisis and the 700b wont be paid back. history shows us when banks in this situation there is a problem. great depression. bush lies. we cant believe shit. another fact which causes problems. other situations like this in our history it has been paid back.

obama wins it wont be anoth bush which cant use the argument you present on past lies

if we do this bail out there is history. recently japan. and it was paid back and made profit.

but there is the unknown of whether it will be or not

you position is as much unknown as the other position

it is a matter of having an honest argument or a repug argument

[walldude]

73. you position is as much unknown as the other positio

So you are saying that both positions are really unknowns but mine is a "freeper" argument and yours is honest? Nice.

Oh and I never claimed there is no crisis. I claimed it doesn't affect me personally. And what history "shows us" is you can live on a goddamn yacht with gold faucets while you run your goddamn bank into the ground but you have nothing to worry about because the only people who will lose are the customers and the taxpayers who have to foot the bill.

[seabeyond]

93. no. i do state it is unknown. i also state the facts that we have.

as fairly and accurately as i can. hence my original comment that i continue to hear argument of "giving" the money when history and bill states it will be paid back, but that is never mention

the freeper part is not telling the whole story

of course they are all unknown.... that is what happens when one predicts future. we can only go off past and present.

[martymar64]

79. Bullshit

We're still paying for the S &L's. Also when are we going to get back the $9-10 Billion that went missing in Iraq?

Sorry, what you're selling, we ain't buying.

[seabeyond]

95. so when you argue you say said to pay back, not buying. that is at least honest

otherwise..... hey.... it is as DISHONEST of an argument as repugs

[martymar64]

98. So because I refuse to reward predatory capitalism, I'm dishonest?

If you give this money away, we'll never see it again. It'll end in secret accounts in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands.
Remember the Iraq War and the Patriot Act? This bailout plan is advocated by those VERY SAME PEOPLE! They have no intention to do anything with that money except steal it.
The American taxpayers are being raped and you're prying our legs open.

I hope you're proud of what you're advocating doing to your fellow Americans. But then, they probably paid you well, in Euros.

[seabeyond]

100. no...you talk about a 700b give away, it is a probability we will make an unknown amount

back. it is called lying by ommission.

this is really not a huge concept here.

[martymar64]

101. Tell me then, how will we make it back?

How much will come back to us? 1% ? 2%?
How much of it will just go missing due to lack of accountability? 50% ? 75%?


Forgive me for being incredulous. I know who we are dealing with, the same bastards that rushed us into the Iraq War and the Patriot Act.
I'm a little hot right now about this, so I've probably been a little more sharp with people than I normally would. But in all honesty, I see nothing good coming out of this. The SS America is sinking fast and there is nothing you or I or anybody else can do about it. I don't want anybody hurt because of this and I'm sure you don't either, but it is going to happen and in a big way and we are all powerless to stop it. The bailout won't stop or even slow it down. Neither will inaction, either. My point is NOTHING WILL SAVE US NOW. Shit, we'll be lucky if the US survives as a nation. I knew something this bad would happen before Bush left, and my prediction has come true.
So my suggestion is to hug your loved ones close and pray that you and yours survive the rapidly approaching Dark Age, because not everybody is going to make it out of this alive.

[seabeyond]

103. they are only in office another 6 months. i believe obama steps in. i also believe

that both the senate and house are going to do a good job picking up dems

again unknown.... but that is what happens when talking the future

[martymar64]

104. That's our only hope . . . thin though it may be

What we will need to is a massive public works program, bigger than the New Deal, to repair our physical infrastructure and put people to work. Banks and Wall Street will need to be brought to heel in a big way with severe criminal penalties, including capital punishment for malfeasance and nationalization of the banks and the petroleum companies and our medical system. We need to adopt a protectionist policy in regard to trade in order to rebuild our manufacturing base and enforce a monetary and energy policy that keeps dollars in the US. Also we need to leave Iraq and Afghanistan NOW, regardless of what happens over there and pull our troops out of foreign bases around the world including Germany, Korea and Japan and adopt an isolationist foreign policy.
Those are some suggestions, but the big goal is to contract our interests to only secure the Homeland and repair what 30 years of Reaganomics has done to our country.
You may not agree with some of those ideas and that's OK. But I'm sure we can both concur that something radical has to be done, and if we can hold on and delay any bailouts until after Obama is safely in the WH, then we actually may have a chance at survival.

[seabeyond]

105. i think the republicans taught us well. agree with your post....

i have always been a capital and free trade person adn it made NO sense to me to deregulate and not have stipulation on free trade comparatively with other countries.

there was not a sense of logic in it

[walldude]

75. Ok last post..

It's a sad day when a man works hard, tries to stay honest and out of debt, and advocates helping out the people who need it instead of the people who fucked it up, gets berated for the way he lived. I make no apologies for what I have said today or for the way I have lived my life. I have tried to be honest and live within my means. That's what brought me to the perspective that caused this OP.
I'm sorry if you are insulted or if the way I live pisses you off but really that's not my problem. The people who actually read the OP and understood it know what I mean. The rest of you, well, good luck with your bailout, because you will get it eventually and I hope it's you who are right and not me. I hope that when you put your trust in the government you don't get fucked over... again

[PVnRT]

77. You know, reading that,

I hear the same argument every right-winger has ever used when bitching about taxes going to people on welfare.

I worked hard, got laid off, and had to take unemployment to pay bills for two months until moving back in with my parents for lack of a better option or job. I'm guess I'm one of the leeches in your eyes.

[walldude]

80. Nope happy to help an honest hard working man.

Maybe you ought to reread the part about Volcanoing up before you make a judgement based on other things you have read today. I am happy to help people who need it. I am not willing to give a single fucking red cent to anyone who gambled away their company. Work hard be honest I'll hale you any way I can. Sit behind a desk gambling with honest peoples money and you can go fuck yourself. That clear enough for you?

[redqueen]

91. The difference is, in walldude's case, he's contrasting his situation against the fatcats

who fed and will profit from this fiasco, should the bailout bill not force them to drain all capital from shares before any help is given.

The 'pukes contrast themselves with the poor... not fatcats. BIG difference.

[OwnedByFerrets]

97. With interest, its over $9000

[Medusa]

102. I lost $3000 today in my 401K.

The OP's reasoning on this score is severely flawed. For starters, the job losses, home foreclosures and businesses going under is NOT speculation. It's already begun to happen. Secondly, no one is going to come to your house, hold a gun to your head and demand $3,000 in cash.

[soulcore]

106. You could have just as easily put that money into a no-risk savings account.

Instead, people GAMBLE with their money and wonder why they lose value when stocks plummet.

I'm not saying it's your fault, and I'm not saying I WANT you to lose money, but you knew the terms when you signed the dotted line.

The stock market is a sham, fake money being traded back and forth by greedy fat cats, making a dollar any way they can, and now we're ALL going to pay for their greed.

It's all ghost money worth less than the paper it's trading on.

[Marrah_G]

110. You can't retire on a no risk savings account

People are counting on their 401k plans. Pensions are a rare thing these days.

[TheKentuckian]

107. People want to retire

the Republicans allowed the pension programs that Social Security was supposed to supplement and replaced them with the 401ks. The only way to get your employer to pay up is to pay up to.

Stop acting like people are putting 5-10% of their wages on the craps table. Saving is a net loss, interest doesn't keep pace with inflation and you don't get a cent. 401's are part of a lot of people's packages. These people are trying to be responsible and not have to leech of their kids or live on the streets.

[ShortnFiery]

113. Exactly! I for one hope and pray that our progressive democrats "stay strong" and continue to oppoe

robbing the middle class tax payers in order to GIVE our HARD EARNED MONEY to the *filthy* rich. :grr:

[chicagoexpat]

114. Yeah, we only lost 1.4 TRILLION in the market yesterday, so let's not use

700 BILLION to shore things up in a rescue package

Oh, & ur share of that 1.4 trillion came straight out of your 401k & will come in the jobs lost over the next year.

Enjoy your sunset years as a Wal Mart greeter -- IF you're lucky enough to land that plum job

& maybe you'll be happy when the Democrats are blamed for this as badly as the Republicans are doing now