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I'm sorry so many here don't see the need for the Government to Act on the Market.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:43 PM
Original message
I'm sorry so many here don't see the need for the Government to Act on the Market.
This truly is a crisis of epic proportions. Many people here don't understand what is at stake if Congress does not act to remove a significant portion of the illiquid debt that has been taken on by these institutions.

This crisis is a direct result of banks giving out too much credit to too many people who were not able to manage that credit. It is both the banks faults and the individuals' faults for partaknig in this bad behavior. But more importantly, it is the fault of a Republican led Congress that relaxed most of the restraints on the lending practices of financial institutions.

Yes, there are plenty of problems stemming from the fact that the working class has taken the brunt of the Bush/GOP policies over the last eight years. The Average Savings Rate of the American Citizen has been negative for more than 2 years. This was an early indicator that we were in trouble. Jobs have been sent overseas, social working programs have been decimated and affordibility indexes and cost of living has skyrocketted, putting many in poverty.

The consumer base, basically has been decimated by the GOP Congress for the last 8 years. And at the same time, financial safegaurds and protections for the individual and consumer have been removed. This has all been a setup for the current financial crisis. You could say it was deliberately engineered by the GOP.

And we could continue to fault the GOP and the rich Wall Street CEO's all we want. But that doesn't make the problem go away.

Let's look at what is happening. The current loans that have been defaulted on have grown into the 100's of billions of dollars. The record number of foreclosures last year built this up to unprecedented proportions. And yes, this problem could have been predicted a year ago. What does this mean to banks? Well first, they must sell the property or call a loss on the loan. Initially that is what happened. Then they sell it, using the same bad practice to another individual who can't afford it. Do this two or three times and the banks can no longer use this property as an asset. It's been leveraged multiple times. And it's exchanged hands from one bank to another like a seriously hot potato. What are the repurcussions:

1. Eventually, some bank(s) gets left with the bad loans. These banks end up failing. If these banks manage deposit accounts, either another bank must purchase their deposit accounts or FDIC kicks in. There are only so many banks to acquire and so many failures FDIC can handle.

2. Credit becomes scarce. As I noted in my journal earlier today, there are only a handful of companies left handing out Mortgages. And these are not the kind of mortgages that are easily affordable by new home buyers. Interest rates go way up on these (up over 1.5 in two weeks) because supply is extremely low.

3. Businesses can't borrow money. This will affect how CFO's manage the cash flow. Not only will consumer spending drop off dramatically, but business spending will drop significantly, leading to an economic slow down, higher unemployment and the beginning of a depression.

4. Markets will crash. This will affect everyone. Many people are living their retirements off of their 401Ks and pensions which are invested in relatively safe funds, which now, are no longer safe. Some funds will completely demonitize leaving many people selling their funds at a loss and living off far less than they imagined. This is also setting back the retirements of people who were near retirement (well, those who are still working) and it will cause many people in the 30-50 range rethinking their long-term plans.

What happens if the Government doesn't act to basically absolve this bad debt, there will be more bank failures, less available credit and higher costs to individuals. So much so, that a depression is unavoidable. No one is talking about bailing out stock-holders or CEO's. This is a protection of epic proportions for the American people to preserve the financial industry and prevent a depression.

If the Government acts to remove some of this bad debt, then credit will be restored both to individual and businesses. It will still be bad for the American people, but not nearly as bad as a depression.

We need to get over the 'class warefare' mentality here and recognize the problem our Nation faces. It faces this great disaster in the wake of Republican Rule. We must join together to solve the problem, not to divide the party over it. This problem was caused by partisanship. It can only be ended with unity.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Jesus man, for the millionth time NOBODY here is advocating inaction.
THIS was not necessarily the right plan though.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Indeed. And most importantly, it's AGAINST the public will.
When a party thinks it can pass something and convince voters the party was right and they are wrong, that's a bad position to be in a month before the election.
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Venceremos Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Exactly
The bill that was killed today was horrid. Killing it now paves the way for a decent bill.
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doyourealize1 Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. That's incorrect
I've heard many people (psychopaths, imo) who have advocated that we "let the house of cards fall".
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Sorry, but the majority of posts today have been anti-action.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you Berni!
Well said.

:kick:
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soulcore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. it's corporate welfare, plain and simple.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 01:47 PM by soulcore
700 billion with NO OVERSIGHT, NO REGULATIONS, and NO CAP on golden parachutes is not a "solution".

What about people like me? I'm self employed, no savings, no retirement, no 401k to speak of. I live paycheck to paycheck, and have already been living this "depression" everyone is afraid is on the way.

This bailout package helps no one but the richest of the rich.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Well, the fact that you live paycheck to paycheck, and you
are self employed, is reason enough for people to not take your opinion on anything. Apparently you can't manage your own business, let alone, make an educated statement on the repercussions this will have on the rest of the businesses in this country.

I don't think I would be proudly touting that I was a business owner living paycheck to paycheck, but maybe that's just me...
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soulcore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Maybe I should clarify then....
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 01:58 PM by soulcore
I'm a freelance artist, working on several projects and contracts. Self-employed in the sense that I'm my own boss, choose my own jobs, and have the privilege of doing something I love for a living.

I still can't afford proper healthcare, savings or a 401k.

Thanks for the unwarranted attack and mass assumptions though!
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Maybe you should choose more jobs, so you don't have to live paycheck to paycheck.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 02:13 PM by 1corona4u
Just a thought.
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soulcore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Maybe if I didn't work 7 days a week already I could.
Those of us who play by the rules, live within our means and don't make risky investments are the ones that are going to pay the taxes that will fund this bill.

Without oversight, caps on CEO compensation, and DIRECT help to the middle class and poor, I won't support it.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Maybe you should charge more then.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Nice Liberal bit of understanding there, mate.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 02:11 PM by Forkboy
:thumbsup:

Now, people are supposed to have sympathy for YOUR plight because?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. wrong spot.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 02:14 PM by Forkboy
:silly:
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. The democrats had changed the fucking bill
You are repeating old talking points.
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Doityourself Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. HUH? There is oversight and regulation..it has been added..and no parachutes
You chose your profession...live with your choices. Sounds like I'm suffering so fuck everybody else too.

Misery loves company!
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is the wrong bill, but I support A bailout bill
This bill, while not as bad as the Paulson bill, does not meet the test for helping regular folks DIRECTLY in addition to the big banks and corporations.

Let's start over again on a new bill.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. We understand, but this is
not the action that many of us are willing to take. I'm certainly not arguing for inaction, but I can't get behind a bail out of these proportions either. I'm willing to accept the consequences of waiting a little to come up with the right plan too. I have 5 children that will be footing the bill for this bullshit.

The govt. has seen this crisis coming and they presented it to us at the last minute in order to push through what they wanted. Now people are going to have to calm down, see a little fallout and come up with more solutions that just a simply bail out that will only act as a bandaid anyway.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Well said... this bit is worth repeating over and over and over...
"The govt. has seen this crisis coming and they presented it to us at the last minute in order to push through what they wanted. Now people are going to have to calm down, see a little fallout and come up with more solutions that just a simply bail out that will only act as a bandaid anyway."
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. This action is only 1/10th of the bill your (and my) kids have to pay for.
But if no action is taken in the next 48 hours, it's our Grandchildren who will end up paying for it because our kids will be too poor to pay for anything.
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Doityourself Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. I agree with you
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. This has gone global...
It really doesn't matter one way or the other at this point. The time to argue this was years ago.

The US cannot bail out the world. Two European banks have failed today, and more are on the horizon. This isn't just us anymore.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. For most against this that's a strawman.
I've seen only a couple of people saying that. The vast majority haven't made that claim at all. They aren't against government action, just this action. There's a difference there, whether you agree with that position or not. :shrug:
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LeFleur1 Donating Member (973 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Anyone Who Thinks...
The Republicans who voted this down are going to come up with a 'better' bill, a bill that protects the taxpayer, a bill that regulates and has oversight is loony.

They won't admit it is their crazy deregulation plan that has put us in this predicament. You can't fix what you won't admit is wrong.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I don't see anyone making that argument either, though.
:shrug:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. I've seen far too many do-nothing posts. It's disgusting.
And as far as *this* action goes, it was better than *no* action, which is what is happening now and the Markets are already reacting.


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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I'll take your word for it then, because I haven't been around much the last few days.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 03:20 PM by Forkboy
My own feeling is that I'm highly suspicious of all this, and I'll try to explain why.

It's not hard to create a crisis, or to exploit an existing one to manipulate people through fear to agree to things without using much foresight, decisions that can have ramifications that in some ways are even worse than the crisis they were in response too. The Patriot Act being the best example in recent history. People were scared shitless at the time, and psychologically people not only wanted to see something done, they needed something to be done. We've seen the results of that in the near destruction of the Constitution since then.

This crisis has a different context, but it's being driven as much by that same fear as the Patriot Act was. In this environment manipulation is extremely easy, and in this Administration we've seen the tendency over and over to use fear to their advantage. That doesn't mean the fear is necessarily unjustified, but it does lend itself to outside influence more than any other human emotion. The people who are scared can be offered pretty much anything that looks like help and their going to reach for it. Human nature as it's most basic. People who feel like their drowning rarely turn down a life preserver.

I feel in this case the crisis has snowballed, whether due to outside manipulation or not, to a point where the bailout would help the psychological aspect, and on both Wall St and Main St that's most of the battle.

I'd be tempted vote for the bill because I understand the need for that psychological lift for regular folks, that sense that something is being done (shit or get off the pot is a pretty common phrase for a reason). But I have to be honest, it wouldn't be a confident vote, because I can't shake the feeling that this is just the final fleecing of the taxpayer by the Bush Administration, or more accurately, those in that upper circle with a like mind as the Bush Administration.



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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. It'll pass in the next few days
The kleptocracy that runs this country is facing the loss of trillions in personal wealth and they will rein in their little republican buttboys tonight.

Otherwise we are in for an economic depression, literally and not figuratively
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