Did anyone catch Biden on CNN a couple of minutes ago about McCain raising taxes

[Peacetrain]

on the middle class. According to Biden, McCains health plan, figures people who currently have a health care plan ie blue cross etc, that the health care benefit will be taxed as income. Example you make 50,000 a year, your health care benefit package is 12,000. so now you will be taxed for 62,000 a year.

Biden said this will be the largest tax hike on the middle class ever.!

I am dumbfounded, if it is as Biden describes it, McCain just shot the hole in his own boat.

[Hope And Change]

1. Biden has hit McCain a lot on this issue lately.

[Peacetrain]

3. I must have been asleep at the wheel, this is the first time I heard it..

[KewlKat]

4. Obama mentioned it in last nights debate n/t

[Peacetrain]

6. That must have been after I turned the tv off.. I just could not listen

to McCain anymore..

[Realityhack]

11. Unfortunately he screwed up who the burdon would fall on. n/t

[bettyellen]

42. did he say it would fall on the employer? i assumed that to mean employers

would then shrink benefits. but taxing employees so much more is so much worse.

[1corona4u]

12. Exactly...

he did.

[Grateful for Hope]

38. Yes he did

and, McCain had no answer.

[nc4bo]

2. Holy cow - whole nother tax bracket for many people!

I've only generally heard of the repukes health care plan, never the specifics and never broken down in real $$ layman's terms like that.

[grantcart]

5. this is not new

McCain is going to tax employers for the health benefits which are now considered a business expense.


This is to be offset by a personal deduction for each American for what they pay.


It is a colossally stupid idea and undermines the whole philosophical idea of social insurance by having 'shared risk of large numbers'.

It will end up with lower rates for people that are very healthy and more expensive rates or no insurance for people with health problems.

It creates a disincentive for companies to buy insurance.


But there is no chance for any of this shit to pass because we are going to have a Democratic Congress.

[Peacetrain]

10. I never fully understood what McCain meant by the 5000 tax credit

Because for many people, that would be meaningless, to have a credit on money the do not have..but now I see the light. McCain wants to increase the middle class taxes, then say here is a partial credit..

If I did not get it grantcart, the full implication, trust me, alot of America is not getting that.

The press is not clearing that up either, apparently they don't get the full ramifications yet.

Amazing isn't it, just amazing .. no wonder he did not mention the middle class once last night.


aii yii yii

[KewlKat]

7. Obama covered this in Dover NH

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama hammered John McCain on the issue of taxes today, while speaking in Dover, NH. Obama specifically pointed out that McCain’s healthcare plan would tax workers’ health insurance benefits.

“And I can make a firm pledge: under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase – not your income taxes, not your payroll taxes, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes. My opponent can’t make that pledge, and here’s why: for the first time in American history, he wants to tax your health benefits Apparently, Senator McCain doesn’t think it’s enough that your health premiums have doubled, he thinks you should have to pay taxes on them too. That’s a $3.6 trillion tax increase on middle class families. That will eventually leave tens of millions of you paying higher taxes. That’s his idea of change,” Obama said.

[BattyDem]

8. I know several people who were stunned when Obama mentioned it.

The reaction was ... "Wait a minute. Is that right? Is he really going to tax our benefits? Well... FUCK THAT!"

Obama and Biden really need to repeat this over and over again. Put it in a national ad.

[MadrasT]

13. Yep, I got at least two "on the fence" people to flip over to our side

after I told them about that one. It is a big deal.

[Peacetrain]

28. I think this is huge!! Especially since we are being asked to bail out wall street

who the republicans let run amok.. Let us not forget K street initiative. And now this..

[Realityhack]

31. I will have to mention this to a few people.

I know it would spike taxes for everyone I work with. We are fortunate enough to have fully paid health insurance.

[Jennicut]

9. I heard Biden mention this the other day as well

Hope they keep hammering McTroll and co on this, its terrible for the middle class.

[high density]

14. This is an important issue

Everybody's taxable income would go up immediately but they'd have no extra money in their pocket.

[Allyoop]

15. Taxing health care benefits

Try this:



http://blog.thehill.com/2008/09/16/mccain-secretly-plans-new-tax-on-middle-class

Sorry, I copied and pasted and it doesn't come out as a link, but the info is here.

[Allyoop]

17. Well I'll be darned

Shows I don't post very often - the link is there!

[Peacetrain]

18. Thankyou for the link Alleyoop, I brought some of it out for people to read

McCain Secretly Plans New Tax on Middle Class
September 16th, 2008

John McCain should not be traveling in a bus called the Straight Talk Express. No, that equivocating multimillionaire who kowtows constantly to the wealthy should be riding in one of those private, gilded railroad cars.

That would be symbolically appropriate as well since he is trying to railroad the middle class on taxes.

He is actually proposing a brand new tax on the middle class.

This has gotten so little attention it is astounding. And frightening, frankly, as television reporters and commentators focus instead on inane incidents like the lipstick-on-pigs remark.

McCain intends to tax workers for the value of health insurance that they receive from their employers.

Really.

Although it’s not included in the description of his plan on his web site. It is, however, on the site of the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, a non-profit organization that specializes in health policy.

I understand McCain neglecting to mention this new tax on the middle class. If I were proposing this shocking tax increase, one that will cost the average American worker an additional $110 a month in taxes out of the blue, I would conceal it as best I could too.

[MaineProgressive]

16. Oops

I think Joe was incorrect about this.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/29815459.html

[Peacetrain]

20. Now I am more confused, I just figured my out, and my

employer pays 14,400, that I would be taxed on, and i teach, so trust me, I am not in anyones upper brackets.

[PA Democrat]

26. The thing is that by going form a group plan to an individual plan

you will lose coverage for preexisting conditions and McCain's plan has no requirement for coverage of anything preexisting. Most companies will not issue insurance at any cost to cancer survivors or people with chronic conditions.

McCain himself would not be able to get private insurance under his plan.

[Peacetrain]

29. Oh this is just getting worse by the moment.

[Peacetrain]

22. Take a look at this MaineProgressive

http://blog.thehill.com/2008/09/16/mccain-secretly-plans-new-tax-on-middle-class

This is the link from alleyoop

[No Passaran]

19. That's the best kept secret of the McCain camp. Something I'm sure Obama will bring up soon

[PA Democrat]

21. Good article linked below. McCain's plan would result in MORE uninsured & higher costs for families

as well as fewer protections for consumers. In other word, good luck getting the greedy SOBs to pay for your health care. If you have a preexisting condition, you are completely screwed.

ABSTRACT:

Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) health plan would eliminate the current tax exclusion of employer payments for health coverage, replace the exclusion with a refundable tax credit for those who purchase coverage, and encourage Americans to move to a national market for nongroup insurance. Middle-range estimates suggest that initially this change will have little impact on the number of uninsured people, although within five years this number will likely grow as the value of the tax credit falls relative to rising health care costs. Moving toward a relatively unregulated nongroup market will tend to raise costs, reduce the generosity of benefits, and leave people with fewer consumer protections.

<snip>

The tax exclusion for employer-sponsored health insurance provides a subsidy to people who obtain coverage through their jobs. A sizable economics literature shows that the tax subsidy greatly increases employers' offers of health benefits.2 Some of this research indicates that employers' decisions are most responsive to the "tax price" faced by their more highly compensated workers.3 However, to qualify for the tax subsidy, employers must abide by IRS nondiscrimination rules, which require firms to provide similar benefits to high- and low-wage employees. These rules have the effect of increasing the health insurance coverage of less skilled workers who work in firms that also employ highly skilled workers.4 The tax exclusion also strengthens risk pooling by creating an incentive for younger, healthier people to remain in employer-sponsored groups, where they effectively subsidize higher-risk workers.5 For these reasons, the tax exclusion has been described as "part of the glue that holds employment groups together as risk pools for purchasing health benefits."6

Eliminating the tax exclusion would greatly reduce the number of people who obtain health insurance through their employers.7 This decline would be driven by three factors: the effective price of employer-sponsored coverage would increase, the nondiscrimination rules would no longer apply, and low-risk employees would have less incentive to remain in employer-sponsored groups.

More at link:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.27.6.w472/DC1

[livetohike]

23. I don't think Obama explained this in much detail the way

you just did last night. He mentioned the $5,000, but he said the corporation would be taxed and he should have said it will be added to your taxable income. Maybe he will clarify this in the economic debate.

[dansolo]

32. Perhaps he was saving it for the other debates

Since this debate the focus was supposed to be on foreign policy, he probably wasn't planning on going into it.

[gateley]

24. I never truly understood the 'taxing health care benefits' until Biden

explained it. He even describes the situations abroad in a way I can understand.

And it IS just as Biden describes it. He usually lays it out in his campaign speeches/appearances, but unfortunately the media doesn't cover him much. And, unfortunately, most of those in the audience are Obama supporters, anyway.

They should make a 30 second TV spot with that explanation. And flood the airways.

[Peacetrain]

25. Exactly ..This is the first time, that the 5000 tax credit, which

just was mush to me, this is the first time I understand what they were talking about. And I am not a stupid person.

So my thoughts are that most of America does not have a good understanding of what Uncle John wants to do to us.

[VIC in MO]

27. It Makes a difference

I can tell you firsthand that this will hurt. Since my partner was recently laid off, I had her added to my employer insurance. But, since legally relationship not recognized, etc., the benefit is treated as "non-qualified", the value of the benefit is added to pre-tax income and the monthly deductible is taken post-tax. Result? About $190 less per month in take-home pay. The bulk of the lost income is from additional taxes created.

This sounds like exactly what McLame is proposing.

[unblock]

33. welcome to du!

:hi:

[VIC in MO]

41. Thank you so much!

I've been lurking since 2004. Glad to be here!

[Peacetrain]

37. Yes it does, and sorry that you are fighting that insurance

devil. I wish we had a simpler system, something more akin to the Canadian system, with a choice component. Basically what Obama is talking about..But with this GOD awful bailout, I am not sure there will be any money left to get it up and running

[Brundle_Fly]

30. He explained it so perfectly.

dumbed down so anyone can understand.

[wildflowergardener]

34. Tax

Would this still have to go through the house and senate - could they vote no on this, even if (God Forbid) we have a McCain presidency?

Meg

[Peacetrain]

35. Haven't a clue, One would think so, but the way the republicans

have twisted things the last 8 years, heck 30 years, up is down and down is up, you just don't know!

[Coexist]

36. K & R!

[iiibbb]

39. Don't forget the 5000 tax credit....

Not that people won't still be screwed because it's unlikely they're paying a total of 5000 in taxes.

[Peacetrain]

40. Here is the problem as I see it iiibbb...

I looked at my health benefit, and it is 14,400 a year. Now that will be considered income. That boosts me into a brand new tax bracket. I am not seeing how a 5,000 credit is going to help me in the long run. It might in the short, but these things always expand out, and insurance goes up every year, every time we get a raise, the insurance goes up to eat that raise up almost exactly, and that tax credit, will start being an additional tax burden very quickly.

If some companies completely drop their insurance component, now others who have lower income brackets, are going to be up ship creek. That 5,000 credit is worthless when you need family insurance.

[seabeyond]

43. i use this one ALL the time. people dont know about it. healthcare before taxed is one of the few

things that make the hardworking people feel good. to tell them that they will now be taxed on it is PAINFUL for the.

[secondwind]

44. I knew about this all along, and we have been trying to convince family

members in NC to vote Obama, since they say they are "voting their wallet"........but still, no dice. Even if they will pay taxes on their health insurance.

It's the Bubba factor, unfortunately. :puke: