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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:13 AM
Original message
Round One: Obama!



A prize fighter in a corner is told
Hit where it hurts for silver and gold
Silver and gold …..
--U2; Silver and Gold; from Rattle and Hum

{1} I scored the first round of the Barack Obama versus John McCain debates for Obama. Before we take a look at why, I think that it is interesting to note that more of the journalists on the cable news shows were correctly comparing the debate to a boxing match, rather than other analogies that are far less accurate. Both Obama and McCain are boxing fans, and each identifies Muhammad Ali as their favorite fighter. Thus, I was pleased when both Chris Matthews and Patrick Buchanan compared Obama’s performance last night to Ali.

Now let’s take a brief look at how political debates are "scored."

{2} I frequently talk about the "three groups" in any and every political contest. It is a model that I was taught decades ago, and which is useful for any person who is either actively engaged on some level in a campaign, or who is simply watching from the sidelines. It’s interesting to note that Chris Matthews includes this model as one of the most important lessons taught by those who head up the national campaigns out of Washington, DC (see "Life’s a Campaign"; Random House; 2007).

The three groups are: {a} those who always support you; {b} those who always oppose you; and {c} the undecided, who tend to decide every close election.

In the Obama vs McCain campaign, most of the polls indicate that going into the debate, that Obama had a lead. It was not a huge lead, but it was still a significant lead, largely because it was closely related to the current economic crisis. Thus, last night’s debate was aimed largely at the Group C "undecided" voters, in hopes of increasing Obama’s lead.

Within Group C, there are three important, sometimes overlapping, sub-groups. These include independents, democrats, and women. Each of the three sub-groups had identified two questions that were important to them: first, which candidate was most capable of dealing with the economic problems facing our country; and second, is Barack Obama qualified to serve as our President, especially in the context of Commander-in-Chief?

{3} Now let’s take a ringside seat. We won’t sit with the Obama fans, or the McCain fans. Instead, we will look at this through the eyes of the Group C people. Keep in mind that all of the Group C people were wondering earlier in the day if John McCain was going to enter the ring, or try to postpone the fight.

This first debate was supposed to be about foreign policy. This has been advertised as McCain’s strongest area. However, the economic crisis was the first topic of discussion. For more than twenty minutes, it was obvious that McCain was ill at ease. He sounded nervous when he spoke, and had difficulty finding the words to express himself. Obama was confident and articulate. He spoke about McCain’s supporting the policies of the Bush administration, which have contributed to the crisis, 90% of the time.

McCain never said the words "middle class." He said he would likely place a freeze on all non-military spending. Obama spoke of main street concerns, including education.

When the debate turned to foreign policy, the Group C people wanted to see if McCain would overpower Obama, or if the younger fighter could hold his own. David Gergen said afterward that McCain was not able to score the points he needed to during these exchanges. This was, of course, a common experience for those who fought Muhammad Ali: they went into the fight thinking they could hit Ali, but found out it was nearly impossible inside the ring.

{4} The most important punch in boxing is the jab. Those who follow the sport of boxing know that there are actually several variations of that punch – the jab can be a defensive or offensive weapon, it can be used to measure distance, and it can be used to stun the opposition. But everything starts with the jab. So, in the first round of any fight, a boxer begins with the jab.

Group C spectators saw Obama measuring McCain with some early jabs. Then, he began to snap McCain’s head back with hard jabs, when he nailed his slower opponent with comments about Spain, "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran," four errors McCain made on the invasion of Iraq, and then a quote about our not needing to concentrate on Afghanistan.

{5} The Group C people saw McCain becoming angry, frustrated, and refusing to look at Barack Obama. They heard him repeatedly saying that Obama "just doesn’t understand," and then heard Obama’s responses that proved he absolutely grasped the complex world we live in. A CNN group, which included both democrats and republicans, reacted negatively when McCain brought up the POW bit; it seems likely that the majority of Group C people also viewed this as a cheap attempt to exploit his military experiences.

The polls on CNN and MSNBC, like all polls, represent a snapshot of a constantly changing public perception of the election contest. Yet a few things stood out. Among the Group C people responding, almost twice as many thought Obama won than McCain. Women favored Obama by about 61% to 39%. People over 55 years of age, who tend to vote conservatively, actually found Obama to be more able to represent their economic concerns than McCain. Finally, when asked which candidate they thought would win in November, 65% said Obama.

Finally, in the televised coverage after the debate, Group C saw Joseph Biden speaking about Obama, and Rudy 9/11 speaking for McCain. Where was Sarah?

This is why I think we can agree that Barack Obama won round one. Certainly, all of us wish that Obama hit McCain with one line or another. But this is a three round fight. Obama was not going to throw everything last night.

The debate increased interest in the election. The general public will be watching the next two rounds closely. More, this has stirred up interest in the "under card" bout, between Joseph Biden and Sarah Palin. So I leave you with this thought: one can easily imagine Joseph Biden keeping pace in a debate like last night’s ….but how do you imagine that Sarah Palin will do?
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not a boxing fan, but I agree. Obama danced around McCain. McCain was stodgy,
slow and clumsy. Seemed to come in with a pre-scripted fight that didn't meet the realities of the engagement well. Obama eas much more fluid and sharp - in real time, where it counts.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Right.
I understand that some people do not like boxing, for a variety of reasons. Corrupt officials, parasites as promoters and even managers, and the injuries that the sport can inflict on those who participate. About half the time, I find that I love boxers, but hate boxing ..... because for the most part, with some exceptions, boxers are gentle souls who engage in a sometimes violent sport for the strangest reasons. As long as DUers are okay with an old pug who types away on this forum, it's all good.

It seemed to everyone in my house last night that Obama appeared more "presidential" than his opponent. During the first half-hour, my oldest son, a pacifist, kept laughing, then saying, "Sorry, don't mean to laugh, but this seems like a mismatch."
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. As usual, you're spot on.
You're right about that whole McCain constantly saying Obama "doesn't understand" nonsense. People could clearly see that Obama DID understand. McCain's script of painting Obama as naive and not understanding the world didn't work last night.
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gblady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. yes,
and John is too insensitive, inflexible, and uncreative
to realize it wasn't working and change strategies...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. He tried the line
too often. It was apparent to everyone what his goal was. He failed to reach that goal on so many levels .... he really doesn't have a good delivery in that format.
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. I watched this without talking head intervention and I have to confess
I have too much emotionally at stake in this race so I actually came away a little disappointed that McCain wasn't knocked to the mat in the 1st round. I am glad to see that the consensus seems to be that in the view of the independents, he was once again, meeting his objectives with laser accuracy.

thanks for another great assessment
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Thanks.
I find myself spending a lot of time thinking about what Barack Obama needs to do in each of the three debates, in order to best communicate his message with the public at large. One of the difficulties that I see is that, in some ways, Obama is unlike what we look for in a debate/confrontation. The best example from last night would be his responses to McCain that take a "yes, but ..." route. In the western world, we are used to a politician reacting to every statement from his/her opponent with a "no, because ...." But eastern thought (and I realize these are general terms) often attempts to be less confrontational, and so there is the initial "agreement," to signify that "I hear and understand you," followed by the "but," which is "and here is what I think." Obama has variations on this, of course, but it is one of the constants in his debating style. And the majority of journalists really do not understand it.

He did a good job of communicating the areas that he disagrees with McCain, without being disagreeable. McCain, on the other hand, showed the unattractive side of his personality. Obama's jabs were scoring, and each one created a deeper sense of resentment and frustration on McCain's part.

I'll say something that might not be popular with the entire DU community, but which I am convinced is true. During the entire democratic primary process, some of the candidates felt a little resentment towards Barack, from time to time. But in the greater sense, all of them ended up feeling like what Senator Clinton expressed, "It is an honor to be here with Barack Obama." Another example being Joseph Biden's being eager to be selected as Obama's vice president.

Well, John McCain does not feel that way. Deep down, he does not like Barack Obama. It's not as if he simply used old debating tricks last night, or told a few whoopers. Rather, he expressed his strong dislike for Obama, both in words and in his physical communications.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. Temperament definitely was a factor here
Obama showed clarity of purpose, adaptability (especially when he changed both physical stance and phrasing to directly address McCain) and calm, thoughtful perspective. He showed respect for an opponent's point of view when he when he agreed with aspects before specifying his differences, but also showed grit in raising issues like McCain's bomb Iran and Spain gaffes, which were surprise jabs.


McCain's body language showed his discomfort. As you note, you could see his frustration and his dislike of Obama through that. He kept shifting uncomfortable while pulling up a patently false smile as an attempt to cover a fuming inside. He looked ready to blow at times. And what he said was similar to what people say during an argument - repeating a point over and over as if you think that will change someone's mind.


A large part of foreign policy is the ability to negotiate with someone with whom you disagree, to use diplomacy to change the relationship and situation to one more favorable. And this is something people get, both on a personal and a national or international level.

Obama ably demonstrated that ability and McCain clearly did not.


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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Clearly I thought Obama won too!

:)

It bothered my that McCain wouldn't look at Obama.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. If it was an
attempt to use a new debate tactic to show contempt for Obama, McCain's failure to look at him failed. And if it was actually a window to allow the public a glimpse of the inner essence of John McCain's being, it helped convince people that he is a bitter, angry man.
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FightingIrish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. McCain was the pathetic old club fighter, way past his prime
Obama's blows were surgically precise and he never took his eyes off his opponent. McCain went into a clinch from the beginning, afraid to even look at his superior opponent. It may have been a TKO, but a win is a win.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. John could'a been a contender,
if Budd Schulberg were writing the play.

"I went to the fights two and sometimes three times a week. I preferred them to most of the pictures I was making." -- Budd Schulberg; Forty Odd Years
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. The back pedaling into the ropes to hold Obama in a clinch
while McCain tried to catch his breath was when McCain started using
old history and stories which had no bearing on the questions or subject
of the debate.

Everyone I talked to saw that was delaying tactic while
trying to hit Obama in the back on the kidneys with meager blows.

Obama broke up the clinch with his "I have a bracelet too john" and scored a solid blow
to McCain's ego. He was physically damaged if you can watch McCain's
reaction to it.

Yeah, I like the boxing analogy in debates too.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes, I heard that too, great comeback
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. My Take
Was that it was his strategy to come into this, easy. Yes, we wanted a knockout but I think Obama is acutely aware of the 'angry black man' meme that's been around. He put that to rest last night, when you have Buchanan saying over and over that he's a really nice guy, you can bet that a lot of the ridiculous fears people had about him were put to rest. I also think he's doing a bait and switch on McSame's campaign. I'd bet any money they think they still have a shot after last night. I think they expected him to be loaded for bear and when he finessed the evening, it raised their expectations. This is a group who, especially in the case of their leader, has a tendency towards arrogance and over-confidence. A trap was laid and I expect that in round 3 they will find themselves face down on the mat. Obama is out there today and you can sense his confidence. He accomplished exactly what he wanted.

It will also be interesting to see what strategy they have for Palin.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Kick
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Good point.
When he was a teen-ager, Obama studied the works of Malcolm X. Of course, Malcolm was famous for, among other things, saying that black people in America were angry, and that he was the angriest one of all. Oh, he was good!

There are a series of Malcolm's speeches that have been recorded. Some on film clips, and others are available on old 33 LPs. Years ago, many a young man looking to master the skills of public speaking would listen to Malcolm, over and over, to learn some tricks. (I can say this, from not only reading about others who did, but from my own youthful experiences.)

From when I first listened to this young man Obama, four years ago, to last night, I recognize Malcolm's influence. (I remember saying that the night he delivered his speech at the '04 convention, right here on DU.) But he has not included the "angry" parts. I am sure that Malcolm would be proud of Barack Obama.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Interesting...That
Obama having studied Malcolm. He was a good student.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. I agree. It was just Round one
If he opened up on him and laid him out where would he go from there? He definitely connected a number of blows but completely annihilating McCain was not last night's goal. He wanted to communicate a number of messages to the public at large and hold his own. He never let McCain get away with anything but he never sunk to his level. I've begun to trust Obama and his wisdom. He anticpates and is methodical. Could this be a rope-a dope and we will get the TKO in the last round? I bet we will and until then he builds the tension and suspense. It's Rocky 2. :D
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R. Thanks for this analysis.
You surely helped me understand what took place. I have recognized Obama's counter punching skills -- I called him a jiu-jitsu master. I see that you think he is holding something in reserve. It appears that McCain does not. This is reassuring.

--IMM
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. There are two
choices when one engages in a series of three televised debates. The first is to unload early, then keep hammering the same message home, over and over. The potential advantage of that is having the message serve as something of a commercial that sticks in the audience's head. The potential problem, as Senator McCain so generously shared with his "he just doesn't understand" bit, is that what sticks in the audience's head is that you are trying to score cheap points.

The other option is to build up the attack in each of the three rounds. This takes into consideration that the media highlights certain sound bytes, and that these stick in the public's mind. Obama is using this option, which I believe is the best way to approach the task at hand.

Joseph Biden has a different circumstance, in that he has but one round to debate Sarah Palin. He will do his thing at a very different pace.

Both the presidential and vice presidential debates are fascinating this year.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. You reminded me that for years I wouldn't buy Whisk! detergent...
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 06:42 PM by IMModerate
because their advertising incessantly repeated the phrase, "Ring around the collar!" McCain's lines are like that. He is annoying.

Bad taste is timeless, H2O.

--IMM
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. The "Spain" jab was so skillful
because McCain had no good way to counter it.

He could have admitted he had misunderstood the interviewer, or he could have said that he didn't recognize the name of Spain's prime minister, or he could have said that of course he knew Spain was an ally...all of which would have just made things worse for him.

He was pinned in a corner. Brilliant move by Obama, especially because it visibly provoked McCain's temper.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. My favorite was when he brought up "Singing songs about bombing Iran"
I guess I enjoyed it because I wanted him to bring it up after McCain talked about what you "should say in public" in a condescending tone. As if he is one to preach that? Mr Diplomacy? Please!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Right.
It caught him solidly, and there wasn't a darned thing he could do about it.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. It made McCain say "horseshit".
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Advantage Obama! n/t
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. About everything starting with the jab, actually...
If memory serves, Ali was one of the few who could actually hit with you a right hook or cross without leading with a job. That's how fast he was.

Obama is as well. I loved his line in response to McCain saying he would consider a freeze on everything except Veteran spending and military. Obama said that that would be like using a hatchet when a scalpel is needed. Was that a jab or a lead-off right hook, I wonder?

Thanks. Kicked and recommended.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. There was a famous
series of photographs in Sports Illustrated, years ago, showing how fast Ali's punches were. The "old timers" of the day used to say that he wasn't as fast as the great welterweight champion, Sugar Ray Robinson. SI showed that Ali was actually a much faster puncher, and that he could put his punches together in combinations unlike any other fighter.

I thought the best thing about the hatchet & scalpel line was how it created such clear mental imagery. It is, in my opinion, a wonderful example of a counter-punch: McCain led with what he believed was a telling blow, and Obama blocked it and hit back in a single move that McCain never saw coming.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. Fantastic analysis.
In addition, McCain was using "inside baseball" Senatorial procedural language which conflicted with this "change and reform washington" message, whereas Obama used clear, persuasive language, spoken by average Americans. Obama engaged his audience by looking into the camera, as well as looking at his opponent, but McCain looked angry, petulant, defensive and contemptuous of his opponent. Obama look Presidential, with grace and gravitas under pressure, but McCain looked like he was angry because he was in over his head. I could see why Obama would be the clear winner for group "C".

I've never seen Jim Lehrer so excited before. I think his eyes were dancing. I was fun to watch him.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. I think that
Jim Lehrer had extended eye contact with Barack Obama. This was one of the most interesting things: while McCain was rambling on and on, the television audience could see Obama smiling and signaling to Lehrer that he wanted to respond.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. I thoroughly enjoyed this analysis. A little story about last night...
Thank you for that, H20Man. I've been away most of the day and haven't gotten a good feel for the response post-debate. Thank you for providing such great insight and a nice, neat summary. I'm not a boxing fan, but I see this analogy is perfect in this scenario.

I was watching with my SO who is a lifelong Republican - it's ingrained and very, very hard for this age group (mid-40s) to detach from their parents' beliefs. This is someone who grew up in a traditional Republican environment/family and, even though Bushco/neocons are not traditional Republican whatsoever, people like my SO can't IMAGINE voting for a Democrat. They'd rather stay home.

Even though I was raised in a similar environment, I rebelled against it at an early age and have always been the black sheep -- proudly so. :)

Over the last few years, my SO has gradually learned that the word "liberal" isn't a bad word, nor is the word "conservative" - I've slowly exposed him to different viewpoints and those pesky things called facts and truth, and he has seen the criminal behavior of Bushco, and how we're now reaping much of what was sown back in the Reagan era.

Still, I know voting for Obama would be a HUGE stretch for him. This type of person has blinders on...the willful ignorance thing is a hard habit to break.

(BTW, he said something this afternoon which shocked me. After returning from errands, I said, "I'm seeing 10 to 1 McCain signs" -- I'm in Raleigh, NC, south of the city in the moral rural, redneck area. He said, "They must not have watched the debate. Republicans don't usually watch the debates or pay attention to what's going on.") LOLOL

We watched the debate together and, afterward, he said, "I think it was pretty much a tie. McCain said a lot of what people like me want to hear, but the truth is that he hasn't lived up to that talk for the last 8 years . And, I have to give it up to Obama. I've NEVER seen a Democrat stand up and be strong like that. He showed he's not going to take any crap and THAT impresses me. If anyone was paying attention, they saw a LOT of good stuff from Obama tonight. I'm no longer afraid of him being president."

BAM!!!!!!!!!

:)




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Ozma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Wow what a wonderful personal story to share! and
It must be hard for you at times to live with a lifelong Republican. Thank GAWD he's starting to open up, to look at all sides, and respects our candidate as much as he does!!!

Move to New England or Northern Illinois, or Oregon, and he's bound to become a moderate independent, and someone we'll ALL be glad you're married to. Until then, hang in there!
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. LOL! I know....
I really want to get away from the South...I just don't belong here (nor does he)...and will probably move back to where he is from: Wisconsin.

I hear wonderful things about how progressive the Milwaukee area is. When my daughter graduates in a couple of years, I'm northward bound once more!!! Yay!



:)

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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. welcome to DU, Ozma!
and be sure to read more of H20's rants, along with several other treasures- Rants by Nance, Frenchiecat, madfloridians Journals, etc. There are simply too many talented people on this board.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. There is a great
team on DU. It includes a variety of talented writers and dedicated activists. I'm proud to be on the same team with people here. Best darned site on the internet, in my opinion.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Very good!
Thank you for sharing this. I think it is a good example of how Obama is changing the public perception of what is involved in this election.
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eshfemme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
27. This is a nice extrapolation on what undecided voters saw
Thanks for the nice breakdown too-- it was easy to read and I agree with your points.

It's also true that this is only the first round. It is obvious that Obama wasn't aiming for a knockout this round and I wish people would quit screaming about how he was being too nice.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Thank you.
I think that DUers will be happy with how the three debates progress.

And I'm really looking forward to the VP debate!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. Excellent, H20 Man~ I'm
not a fan of boxing, either, but I love the way you use the analogies.

"This is why I think we can agree that Barack Obama won round one. Certainly, all of us wish that Obama hit McCain with one line or another. But this is a three round fight. Obama was not going to throw everything last night.:

I think in light of the group that Obama was speaking more to last night.. that he jabbed just right.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. My daughters
are watching the debate again. I'm able to watch it as I am on DU. It convinces me that Obama indeed jabbed just right.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
37. Yes sireee!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. It was a good debate.
Can't wait until the VP debate!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
40. "Now lets take a ringside seat" - next time their is a fight I dibs next to you

BTW if you read Malcom X carefully you see that he was a much more moderate and even conservative person than his persona is represented as.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Yes, he was.
Malcolm, in a very real sense, was a reflection of the American experience, and he showed what was best in this country. Although his unique way of expressing himself made some folks nervous, he was never associated with violence -- except when he and his family were victims of violence.

On the night that Barack Obama spoke to the DNC in '04, I remember logging on to DU, and quoting the part of Malcolm's autobiography, where he told about when he was speaking at Harvard, and looked out a window and realized how far he had come. I then quoted the final pages of the book, where Malcolm said he sometimes wondered what his life would have been, had he had the option of an education early in life. You will recall the teacher who insulted him when as a teenager, Malcolm said he wanted to become a lawyer. Even at the end of his life, Malcolm still wondered what he might have accomplished, had he gone to law school. I ended that post by saying that after watching Obama speak, that question had been answered.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. I saw Alex Haley in an airport a few months before he died I just looked
at him and marveled - occassionally somebody would come up to him and he was very gracious.


I just looked at him and wondered what kind of a person could sit in total isolation in a ship at sea and over 20 years teach himself to be such a great writer. Twenty years of serving the country and then writing books that will be read for hundreds of years and always deflecting the fame to others. He also reminds me of Obama. What a country we live in that people like this find their way onto the world stage. (For those following the thread but might not understand the reference Alex Haley who gained fame as the author of Roots was also the author of The Autobiography of Malcom X from Wikipedia:

One of Haley's most famous interviews was a 1963 interview with Malcolm X for Playboy, which led to their collaboration on the activist's autobiography The Autobiography of Malcolm X, based on interviews conducted over the course of two years prior to Malcolm's death (and with an epilogue). Published in 1965, the book sold well and was later named by Time magazine as one of the ten most important nonfiction books of the 20th century.

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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
41. This is an excellent synopsis
and, accurately reflects my own views of the debate (although, much more eloquently than I ever could).

Thank you for posting this.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Thank you.
One of my best friends on DU asked me yesterday to do a post on the contest between Obama and McCain, using a boxing analogy. The debate provided a good vehicle for that.

Normally, the things that I post on DU are pretty much off the top of my head. In this case, my daughter and I were talking about some discussions in her political science class, regarding the election. I gave her an outline of what Obama's goals were last night, and then decided to combine it with the boxing.
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. You did a great job, H2O Man.
Again, thank you.
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
47. thanks for an interesting observation, H20 man!
My knowledge of boxing is pretty dismal, but you brought some of it to life for me. The only thing that I regret is that Obama didn't knock him out for the count of 10- I suspect that he is waiting until debate number 3!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. The thing about Obama
that stands out for me is that he is the best natural politician that I've ever had the pleasure to see. And a big part of it is his decency. That comes through in the debates.
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bagimin Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
48. I thought Mac was nervous, early on..
cold,condescending and repetitive with that ridiculous "Miss congeniality" line that I think he fell back on THREE times.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. I was wondering
if it was more than just nerves. Even 20 minutes into the debate, he was having trouble finding the words he wanted .... they weren't going from mind to mouth well .... and that struck me as too long for a person to settle down and relax.

One of my late friends told me that in person, McCain was a "people person," and had a really decent side. I think that in the last decade, that side of him has withered on the vine. He seems like a bitter person to me.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
51. Mosely OR Mayorga? Tonite on HBO? n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I did an OP
on this on the sports forum. Mosley should pick him apart for four or five rounds, and take him out in the 6th. But anything can happen in that ring, especially considering how hard Mayorga punches. Mosley doesn't have the speed he once did, and Mayorga's wild shots are not always that easy to avoid.

The better fight, on paper, is on the undercard. Berto is a tough young man, but relatively untested against top fighters. Forbes is smaller, but is a seasoned professional. I was near ringside a little more than a year ago, when Berto was decked and badly hurt on ESPN's FNFs. If his corner hadn't pulled an old Dundee trick with his glove between rounds, Berto would have suffered his first loss. However, he is much improved since then.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Berto outclassed Forbes, the Mosley fight just started...
Mayorga is physically bigger than I expected.

I doubt it will go the distance.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Classic? Mosley KOs Mayorga with 1 sec left in final round of fight. n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kick~
Awesome analysis.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
59. It is obvious that Obama has study the "Rope-a-Dope"
McDownForTheCount never got a shot in.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
60. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!
Obama had just the right tone for the debate...and I loved the little jabs he interjected...like Spain, the bracelet, and bomb Iran song.

And...he just smiled his grand old smile as he jabbed...not mean spirited, nasty, arrogant ~~ he just smacked down exactly the right way.

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LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
61. Great post and discussion.
I am sorry I did not read it in time to give it a rec. H2O Man, you said you admire Obama's decency. I am also convinced that he is a decent and honorable human being, and that is one of the main reasons I have confidence that he will do his utmost as President to be an advocate for the American people. He will do it without denigrating his opponents or tearing down their supporters. He will be willing and able to negotiate reasonable compromises without "selling out" and will rein in the tendency to excess that may result if his own party gains a supermajority.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
62. And that was supposed to be Obama's hardest one.
:toast:
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