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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:09 AM
Original message
Debates are generally defined by one event.
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 01:14 AM by Drunken Irishman
Something that may fly under the radar to most viewers, but then gets a ton of scrutiny when the media harps on it.

In 2000, it was Gore entering Bush's personal space, which looked awkward and Bush, unfortunately, responded great, with a slight nod of the head. Gore also stumbled with the annoying sighs. While they didn't change the race, they've become the defining moment of the 2000 debates. No one remembers that public polls after each debate showed Gore won the first and third. What they do remember is that he became a real life SNL skit.

In 1992, it was Bush glancing at his watch. I bet many Americans didn't even realize what he was doing, but it got a lot of play and essentially ended any comeback hopes by reinforcing how out of touch he was.

In 1988, it was Dukakis' calculated answer to the question about his wife being raped and murdered. Had Dukakis answered that with emotion, slamming the question as completely over the line, he probably would have scored a ton more points. But that became the narrative and it hurt his chances, even though most voters by an overwhelming margin thought he won both debates.

In 1984, Reagan stumbled badly in his first debate with Mondale, nearly giving away the entire election with a confused final ramble. Mondale's misfortune was agreeing to a second debate, as Reagan had a canned line about Mondale's experience ready to go at the beginning, slamming Mondale and regaining control of the narrative and subsequently the election.

In 1980, it was the "There you go again..." Reagan line, coupled with the question asking if Americans were better off than they were four years ago. This damaged Carter and turned a very tight race into a Reagan blowout.

In 1976, Carter was in trouble. He was slipping nationally, Ford had outperformed him in the first debate and had all the momentum heading into the final stretch of the campaign. However, in the second debate, Ford stumbled probably more than any candidate ever could. He said there was no Soviet control of Eastern Europe. His momentum stalled and Carter barely won. Had that not happened, Ford probably carries the momentum back into the White House.

The point, these debates have one moment that everyone remembers. Since the debates are often long, Americans forget much of what is said even hours after the debate ends, but they don't forget these little things. Tonight, McCain not even giving Obama a glance, his weird grin and hunched over look will be the narrative. This is what people will discuss the rest of the week, how cold and mean and disrespectful he looked toward Obama. To many voters, that will be a turnoff because it plays into McCain's biggest weakness, the fact he's perceived to be an angry man. Moreover, it undercuts his likeability factor, which has always been higher than other candidates.

What voters will take from this is that Obama looked presidential, calm and sincere. McCain looked lifeless, trollish and disrespectful. Not the image they want, especially when it comes to those suburban soccer moms everyone thought McCain could lock up. McCain lived up to the stereotype that he's the angry old man who lives down the street and yells at the kids to get off his lawn. That is not the image McCain wants because it won't win over moderate voters looking for responsibility, security and most importantly, calmness in the face of trouble.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. McCain looked like a petty man who's been lying and knows it!
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. He looked uncomfortable, ineffectual, and weary at times
He looked all scrunched up. It was quite a juxtaposition: a short, uptight, at times querulous, old man next to an elegant, articulate, and relaxed young man (who would frequently break out into his spontaneous smiles).
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think you're right. It's getting a lot of airplay. He did look very rude
and petulant and childish, and his failure to look at Senator Obama was so indicative of his discomfort and disrespect. What a loser.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think people saw subliminally what I saw clearly....no eye contact from McCain
He's weak, he's scared, he's trying to avoid getting angry, he's too good to look Obama in the eyes.

Any of these reasons, or combination of them, might be the impressions given to people who watched.

It's said that 90% of communication is non-verbal; eye contact, gestures, tone of voice.

I know what John communicated to me, it think it spoke quite clearly.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. I agree--although it may not be an event, but an overall impression
that simply sticks after all the questions and answers have faded from memory.
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blossomstar Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. I've been waiting all night for this
THANK YOU. Now, I understand what Obama was doing and the thinking behind all the compliments to McCain. It has been hard to understand why he would stand there and smile when McCain was being so very rude and obnoxious. I was just furious that he did not bring McCain down to his size. If he had, he would have took McCain's bait, which is what the rude behavior was about. Thank you so very much, now I can go to sleep in peace. Obama HAS to win this election.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think McCain wanted it to turn into a hostel debate.
Bring Obama down to his level, because it's his only chance. He didn't take the bait, though.
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Omnibus Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. That's how idiots win arguments.
They drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience!


It's inspiring to see a politician who won't be dragged down.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. The Word Is Hostile Not Hostel
A hostel is an inexpensive inn or hotel.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Yeah, I caught that after the edit time ran out.
It's late here, 1:30 almost. :P
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Well you know... a lot of Republicans are in the closet...
and Obama is pretty sexy.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. I was at the 1980 debate, here in Cleveland...
Te power went out for a good bit of time and the two just stood there for what seemed like an eternity.

When the power came back on, Ronnie seemed rejuvenated and Carter was off his game.

That's how I remember that one.

I wasn't on the floor but in a hall next to the hall where the debate was going on. We had a close circuit set-up.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent synopsis!
K&R

:patriot:
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. what was brilliant was he looked exactly like 1 of Obama's best ads->
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 01:35 AM by barack the house
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Omnibus Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. He was starring in an Obama ad tonight.
He may not have known it at the time, but he WILL be.
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canichelouis Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. Yikes!
Forgot about that one.
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. Good comments
The media talking heads are not making a big deal about it now, but a lot of people will comment on his behavior. This along with Obama coming out with the lead in the polls will make them analyze why Obama won, and they will go back to McCain's non verbal gaffes.

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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. I thought it might be the "you were wrong" line...
...but I'm tending to agree with the general consensus about the lack of eye contact.

The final piece of data pushing me in that direction was a conversation I had with my 89-year-old mother down in San Diego. She doesn't know how to use a computer, so doesn't follow the blogosphere like we do, or do web searches for instant reactions from CNN or other news services. In other words, she's not going to pick up any of the Internet(s) "echo chamber" like most of us did tonight. She watched the debate along with her caregiver (politics unknown), and probably didn't even watch any of the post-debate analysis. And she told me, without my bringing it up, that the one thing both of them noticed during the debate was that McCain wouldn't look at Obama.

My thought is that, if two such non-politics-junkies noticed it, lots of other people did, too...without getting that message through news sources. This may turn out to be big.

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
14. Minor quibble:
Reagan's 'weird ramble' came in the SECOND debate, not the first. But his line in the SAME debate about 'not holding my opponent's youth and inexperience against him' was what people remembered.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. No...
It was in the first debate during their closing remarks. Reagan went on about the first four years of his administration, trying to bring up facts, but looked really out of touch. It was the second debate where he unleashed that line.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. No...
the 'weird ramble' referred to above (described by Time as 'barely coherent', about writing a letter to be placed in a time capsule and driving down the Pacific Coast Highway and meeting the 'sons and daughters of America' while campaigning with Bush) came in the second debate. (You can look at the transcript, if you want.)
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. I am not talking about the Time article.
I never read that. I am talking about his final answer in the first debate, which was some weird rambling about nothing.

Go watch it on YouTube, it's very awkward to watch.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. That was the SECOND DEBATE, not the first.
I have no idea why everyone here seems to be remembering it incorrectly. Transcripts here, the first Reagan-Mondale debate: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/showdebate.php?debateid=11

And the second: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/showdebate.php?debateid=12

Note that Reagan's weird rambling is in the second and NOT the first. He was bad in the first one, yes. But he was wandering and obviously, in retrospect, senile in the second.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. No, it is in the first.
Maybe he rambled in both, but what I am talking about comes from your first link.

Four years ago in similar circumstances to this I asked you, the American people, a question. I asked, are you better off than you were four years before? The answer to that obviously was no, and as a result I was elected to this office and promised a new beginning. Now, maybe I'm, expected to ask that same question again. I'm not going to because I think that all of you or, not everyone, those people that have - are in those pockets of poverty and haven't caught up, they couldn't answer the way I would want them to. But I think that most of the people in this country would say yes they are better off than they were four years ago.

The question I think should be enlarged. Is America better off than it was four years ago? And I believe the answer to that has to also be yes.

I promised a new beginning. So far it is only a beginning. If the job were finished, I might have thought twice about seeking reelection to this job. But we now have an economy that for the first time - well, let's put it this way, in the first half of 1980 gross national product was down a minus 3.7 percent. The first half of '84 it's up 8.5 percent. Productivity in the first half of 1980 was down a minus percent. Today it is up a plus 4 percent. Personal earnings after taxes per capita have gone up almost $3,000 in these four years. In 1980 or 1979 the person with a fixed income of $8,000 was $500 above the poverty line, and this maybe explains why there are the numbers still in poverty. By 1980 that same person was $500 below the poverty line.

We have restored much of our economy with regard to a business investment. It is higher than it has been since 1949. So there seems to be no shortage of investment capital. We have, as I said, cut the taxes but we have reduced inflation and for two years not it has stayed down there not a double digit but in the range of 4 or below.

We believe that we had also promised that we would make our country more secure. Yes, we have an increase in the defense budget. But back then we had planes that couldn't fly for lack of spare parts or pilots. We had navy vessels that couldn't leave harbor, because of lack of crew or again, lack of spare parts. Today we're well on our way to a 600-ship navy. We have 543 at present. We have - our military, the morale is high, I think the people should understand that two-thirds of the defense budget pays for pay and salary - or pay and pension. And then you add to that food and wardrobe and all the other things and you only have a small portion going for weapons. But I am determined that if ever our men are called on they should have the best that we can provide in the manner of tools and weapons. There has been reference to expensive spare parts, hammers costing $500. Well, we re the nes who found those.

I think we've given the American people back their spirit. I think there is an optimism in the land and a patriotism and I think that we're in a position once again to heed the words of Thomas Paine who said: ''We have it in our power to begin the world over again.''

It doesn't sound bad when reading it, but the way Reagan said it was very weird. He rambled, stumbled and looked lost through nearly much of it. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6I9nXPh66w

Watch it. He drops the ball big time in the closing remarks.

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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
16. This year it's:
"horse shit".
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. dang, you beat me to it!
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. I wish it was a 24/7 showing of Kissinger saying just what Obama said he said,
and McCain saying it wasn't so.

THAT would be nice! :evilgrin:
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
18. Only for people who don't look at the web. Online, it'll be a battle of all the minutiae.
On YouTube, and elsewhere. We tend to excel in that area.

I'll have to pore over the transcript to refresh my memory, but Obama got in a lot of under the radar zingers on McCain that aren't being mentioned anywhere.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Most people aren't information junkies.
The average voter is someone who 'doesn't look at the web'.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. They do have kids or younger relatives who are, though. It'll seep through.
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
21. My Obama voting mother-in-law
said a few weeks ago, while she disagreed with McAngry's policies and wants a change of party, thought JM was a nice man. I'm certain her opinion has changed tonight.

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eshfemme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm curious to see what SNL's distillation of this debate is.
I'm thinking that there's more comedic humor in caricaturing McCain's steadfast refusal to meet Obama's eyes. Obama's caricature always seems to be more of a straight man rather than a buffoon while McCain definitely befits the clown archetype.
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CampLo Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
27. very good
and on point.
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patomime Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
31. I've replied ...
with these same statements all over the threads tonight and this a.m. It's the little things - and his disposition will come out in the coming days.

Obama passed his threshold on foreign policy. Joe Biden was everywhere, backing Obama up like a good VP to tell everyone how great he was.

---And where was Sarah Palin? On some bar stool, doing nothing.

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wildflowergardener Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
32. defining moment
Maybe it's just me, but I didn't notice the lack of eye contact. What I focused on after awhile was how he kept saying over and over that Obama didn't understand with such a condescending tone as if he was talking down to him, when Obama clearly proved him wrong with intelligent answers. That's what stuck with me.

Meg
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
33. McCain came off as mean and nasty. He really does seem like
the old man in the neighborhood who yells at kids to stay off the lawn.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
36. Don't forget Lloyd Bentson's "You're no John Kennedy" to Quayle
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 12:50 PM by ailsagirl
Superb!! (though a VP debate)
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holiday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
38. McCain reminded me of your almost senile Grandpa talking
about politics and history
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