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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:18 PM
Original message
Combating criticisms of Kerry
I have a lot of people in my social circle who are, as they put it, "not terribly impressed with Kerry," even though they're not exactly fond of Bush either. A lot of the reasons they've given me are the same myths(?) that I've heard regurgitated over and over again by the media. For these reasons, people seem reluctant to give their vote to Kerry.

Can anyone help me with how to respond to several of these criticisms that voters (or potential voters) have about Kerry?

1.) Kerry is a "flip-flopper" because he voted for the Iraq War Resolution but then he voted against funding the military operation in Iraq.

2.) Kerry has a record in the U.S. Senate (especially during the Reagan/Bush Administrations) of voting against defense spending and voting to close military bases.

3.) Kerry will raise taxes.

4.) Kerry's health care plan doesn't significantly help single people (particularly younger adults) without children.

5.) In Vietnam, Kerry initially was fleeing from VietCong fire, and only turned around and saved the lives of his men because he got chased back down the river.

6.) Kerry requested his own nomination for some of the medals he was awarded.

7.) Kerry was "unpatriotic" by speaking out against Vietnam vets after he came home from the war.

8.) Kerry opposes outsourcing and moving American businesses overseas, yet his own wife's Heinz business empire has a majority of its factories overseas. If he gets in office, will Teresa Heinz practice what she and her husband preach by moving a majority of Heinz factories back to the U.S.?

9.) There are no legitimate proposals or plans in the works (aside from the infamous Charlie Rangel legislation) to "bring back the draft." So young people shouldn't have to worry about being drafted under a second Bush term.

I'm afraid that because I'm not prepared for these arguments when trying to persuade undecideds and new voters to support Kerry, I won't look very credible.

Please someone help me rebut these arguments, because these are the types of accusations that are making Kerry look bad as a candidate.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. More innocent questions
from a democrat who needs help defending democrats.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm not a Democrat
I'm an Independent voter, and I'm trying to figure out how to explain all of the MISinformation about Kerry to those who are gullible and buy into the Right-Wing's lies. I'm personally inclined to believe that those are trumped-up charges against Kerry, but I have no proof to defend that assumption when talking with others.

How would you explain the above myths about Kerry, if you were confronted by a confused voter?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I would tell them what I think
just as I did in my earlier post.

Do you really need someone to tell you why YOU are voting for Kerry?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. And here's a link to help you do some research
www.democraticunderground.com
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. LMFAO ....
For some reason: that just cracked my arse up ...
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. It's not about *ME*...
No, you don't.

But other voters don't exactly view the world the same way I do. If these allegations concern them, we have to be ready to respond.

So far, Trajan is the only person who has bothered to give my post any responses with actual substance, so maybe you should be more concerned with persuading those who don't know what to believe due to the conflicting accusations from both sides (rather than expecting ALL VOTERS to automatically believe us, with no explanation to address their doubts).

If our best response is to tell swing voters, "They're lying, believe us," then we're going to be in serious trouble.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. No, it's about *US*
doing research for *YOU*
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. wow, someone sure is bitter...
All I want is some help finding an informed starting point for each of these issues, so I can have a solid direction to investigate them further on my own.

I tried to use the Search function on DU, but you have to be a donor to access it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Wow....
I sure hope your local Kerry campaign isn't sending you out to canvass amongst the undecideds. Your standoffish attitude will turn off potential Kerry supporters for certain.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. You'll be glad to hear that...
The times I've had the time to volunteer at my local Kerry headquarters, I've been doing mostly data entry and making phone calls (from a script) to advertise events, at my local headquarters. Our field directors are all super-busy, and I've been reluctant to ask them about this since they have enough to worry about already.

The people whom I've talked with are friends and acquaintances who have doubts about Kerry. The talking points and campaign literature (and yes, I did check out johnkerry.com before returning to DU) don't fully address the reservations I've been hearing.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. So where are the gaps?
The talking points and campaign literature (and yes, I did check out johnkerry.com before returning to DU) don't fully address the reservations I've been hearing.

If you need assistance, you should put some effort into making the request as easy as possible on your benefactors. Instead of asking general questions about issues that have had books written about them, you might want to consider asking some specific questions about specific issues. This way, the people who are going to go out of their way to help you won't waste their time writing about stuff you already know.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Well, as I told blm...
...if you'd bothered to read his response to me, I plan to do exactly that. My post may have been premature, but I would hardly say that clearing up such confusion for the benefit of voters is "wasting" time.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I guess my problem is
Edited on Wed Sep-01-04 04:48 PM by sangh0
that I have trouble understanding how you'd have trouble responding to some of the points you mention. For example,

5.) In Vietnam, Kerry initially was fleeing from VietCong fire, and only turned around and saved the lives of his men because he got chased back down the river.

Do you really need help responding to this fiction? Is there any response other than "It's just not true. What makes you think it's true?" and then respond to the points your freinds raise?

Also, Kerry's website goes into detail about the lies the SBVT's have been telling. I don't see how you could have found the Kerry website deficient on this issue.

7.) Kerry was "unpatriotic" by speaking out against Vietnam vets after he came home from the war.

Do you think it's "unpatriotic" to speak out against a war? Why do you need help with this? The answer has nothing to do with Kerry.

The answer is "Dissent is patriotic"

8.) Kerry opposes outsourcing and moving American businesses overseas, yet his own wife's Heinz business empire has a majority of its factories overseas. If he gets in office, will Teresa Heinz practice what she and her husband preach by moving a majority of Heinz factories back to the U.S.?

Since you were active before the summer, you should know that Theresa doesn't own the Heinz Corp. because it was mentioned, repeatedly, on DU. This is also on the Kerry website. Snopes knows this, too.

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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Responses...
Do you really need help responding to this fiction? Is there any response other than "It's just not true. What makes you think it's true?" and then respond to the points your freinds raise?

I thought maybe it was based on fabrications of actual events.

Also, Kerry's website goes into detail about the lies the SBVT's have been telling. I don't see how you could have found the Kerry website deficient on this issue.

I knew about the Swift Boats' connections to Bush/Cheney. It was particular details that *supposedly* happened during his Vietnam service that I needed cleared up.

Do you think it's "unpatriotic" to speak out against a war? Why do you need help with this? The answer has nothing to do with Kerry.

I don't think it's "unpatriotic" at all. But I didn't know if whether or not Kerry had misspoke while he was testifying (and if that is what fueled the RW's allegations of being "unpatriotic")

Since you were active before the summer, you should know that Theresa doesn't own the Heinz Corp. because it was mentioned, repeatedly, on DU. This is also on the Kerry website. Snopes knows this, too.

No, I didn't know how much of it she owned, or how much influence she has. But I do now, thanks to the quality information mentioned by the people who took the time to make some thoughtful replies to my post here.

Apparently, I'm expected to be some sort of Kerry expert all by myself, in light of personal conflicts I've had arise over the past several months. I hope you don't expect that from every American voter, because not every American combs over every square inch of Democratic Underground every day of the week.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Since you requested help
I thought maybe it was based on fabrications of actual events.

The first rule of debating is "Make them prove it!"

Never take someone at their word. Ask them where they got that info. It's up to the person making a claim to back it up. If they say "I heard it somewhere, but I don't remember exactly where", then gently ask them if they believe EVERYTHING they hear spoken by SOMEONE is an unknown SOME PLACE? Ask them how they expect you , Kerry, or anybody else to respond to SOMETHING....SOMEONE....SAID....SOMEWHERE.

I don't think it's "unpatriotic" at all. But I didn't know if whether or not Kerry had misspoke while he was testifying (and if that is what fueled the RW's allegations of being "unpatriotic")

To be honest, I'm surprised by your response. Why do you assume the Republicans need something (such as Kerry misspeaking) to base their lies on? Why do you assume anything beyond the issue that was raised...that Kerry's criticism was unpatriotic?

A corrolary to the first rule of debating is "Don't make it hard for yourself". Don't put obstacles in your path. The person said that speaking out against the war was unpatriotic. Take them at their word. If they have other concerns, they will raise them. Don't make your task unnecesarily difficult by feeling you need to address points that havent been raised, and will probably never be raised.

No, I didn't know how much of it she owned, or how much influence she has. But I do now, thanks to the quality information mentioned by the people who took the time to make some thoughtful replies to my post here.

If you want thoughtful replies, you should ask thoughtful questions. Your questions indicate that you've done little thinking about this.

Apparently, I'm expected to be some sort of Kerry expert all by myself, in light of personal conflicts I've had arise over the past several months. I hope you don't expect that from every American voter, because not every American combs over every square inch of Democratic Underground every day of the week.

I expect, at a minimum, a minimal familiarity with Kerry's record. Also, the two points I referred to do not require you to have ANY knowledge of Kerry's record.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Maybe it would be easier if you state what YOU think the answer is
and we'll help tweak your answer appropriately. That way we won't waste TOO much time with the info you already know.

So, what answers are you giving now? Surely you must know quite a bit with such a high post count. Surely you must have posted on threads discussing these issues which are proving troublesome to you.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. No...
Like I said, I've been absent for most of the summer, and I realized the impossibility of wading through thousands of posts looking for the answers I need.

That said, I'll do what you suggest and tonight I'll post a general statement of what I've tried telling people to defend Kerry so far - - and that way DUers can help me improve my responses.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Most of those issues were dicussed before the summer
And you could try www.JohnKerry.com

Just a suggestion for such a reasonable person like you.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. You do realize that...
www.johnkerry.com can't anticipate every criticism that's going to arise.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. You do realize
that neither can we.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Which is why...
I specifically asked for help regarding the intricacies of what I'm trying to find, in my original post (which you proceeded to harp on).
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cheshire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. get James Carville's book Had enough. It has all the answers.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Every one of these bullshit claims have been rebutted here at DU hundreds
of times. You never noticed any of the threads discussing them?

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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Actually...
I've been on sabbatical for awhile, and I just returned to Democratic Underground to post regularly (due to a conflict in my personal life, I've been only able to pop in and out occasionally).

At any rate, I haven't seen the rebuttals for myself.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'll do 1 ....
Edited on Wed Sep-01-04 03:26 PM by Trajan
Twas actually the GOP who voted AGAINST the war, and then for it .... The devil is in the details: Kerry and others wanted the burden of spending 87 BILLION dollars of our collective treasure to be shared by the rich, and expected the rich to give back a part of their 'tax cut' to help fund the war ....

Of course, the GOP can have NONE of that: ... they voted down the specific legislation that would have reduced the tax cut to the wealthy to help fund the war ... and instead passed a bill that permitted the greater burden to be placed on middle class and the poor to fund George's adventures in the Middle East ....

Hence: Kerry "Voted FOR the war funding, then voted AGAINST it" ....

But in actuality: The GOP voted AGAINST funding the war, then they voted for it ....

The GOP understandably omit the fact that THEY voted the previous resolution DOWN before Kerry voted against their resolution ....
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. thank you
Thanks Trajan! :)
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mbali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. To add to Tranjan's answer . . .
The President also purposely attached about $20 billion of boondoggle money to the $67 billion that was actually needed to carry out the war and then demanded that the entire package be voted on in one piece. The Democrats attempted to split this two parts - they would have immediately voted for the money needed for the war (the money for body armor, equipment, etc.) and then given closer scrutiny to the money for rebuilding that was going to flow mostly to Halliburton, et al in no-contract deals.

The Republicans knew that, if they combined the two measures, the bill would pass since most members would not want to be accused of "voting against money for the troops." The last thing they wanted was any public scrutiny of the war profiteering that was and is taking place.

They also knew that the combined bill would pose a difficult dilemma to all of the members who were running in the Democratic primary. If they voted for it, after having voted for the IWR resolution, Bush could insist that they were trying to have it both ways - supporting what he was doing in Congress while beating him up for it in the campaign. If, on the other hand, they voted against it, after voting for the IWR, he could say they "flip-flopped," knowing that much of the electorate wouldn't really understand what this spending measure was all about.

So the president used the perfectly reasonable and necessary funding as a trojan horse for the the $20 bilion corporate welfare scheme and told the Democrats: "Take it or leave it! You either swallow the whole damned thing and act like you like it or I'll tell everyone you hate the troops!" The sad thing is that it was the PRESIDENT who shamelessly used the troops to get what he wanted his and Cheney's buddies. Political opportunism at its worst.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Thanks
:)
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. www.johnkerry.com
www.johnkerry.com
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. As one who is unimpressed with Kerry myself, ...
the best part I liked about Kerry was when he spoke out against the Vietnam War. He wasn't being unpatriotic doing that and he wasn't bashing his fellow comrades in arms. He was lambasting the politicians who sent young men to die in wars that should not have been fought. What is unpatriotic about that?

Teddy Roosevelt thought behaving like sheep was unpatriotic.
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Here's a few
General advice:

Don't try too hard to refute point-by-point. Slam the big one and slam it hard.

Attack first; defense is almost never effective. Make your defense a counter-sound-bite and keep hitting your opponent. Attack, keep on attacking, attack some more, and when you're just about done, kick the corpse. Hard.
1.) "Kerry is a "flip-flopper" because he voted for the Iraq War Resolution but then he voted against funding the military operation in Iraq."

You're half right. If Bush hadn't LIED to the country, Kerry would have certainly voted AGAINST the IWR. The only way Bush could get the IWR to pass was to LIE and to LIE repeatedly.

2.) "Kerry has a record in the U.S. Senate (especially during the Reagan/Bush Administrations) of voting against defense spending and voting to close military bases."

He also has a record of voting FOR defense spending and AGAINST defense appropriations bills that are Corportate Welfare payouts for companies like Halliburton.

3.) "Kerry will raise taxes."

Sez you. By the way, how deeply in debt is the USA now? If I recall, a certain hated Democratic president left office with a $250B budget surplus.

4.) "Kerry's health care plan doesn't significantly help single people (particularly younger adults) without children."

And Bush's health care plan is all smoke-and-mirrors. Care to back up that lame-brained assertion?

5.) "In Vietnam, Kerry initially was fleeing from VietCong fire, and only turned around and saved the lives of his men because he got chased back down the river."

You guys are pathetic. You're supporting a military deserter for president, yet you have the cheek to slag veterans who fought for this country in an earlier dirty war? You and your Republican yellow-bellied Chickenhawks have achieved the impossible -- you've made Jane Fonda look like a flag-waver.

6.) "Kerry requested his own nomination for some of the medals he was awarded."

Bullshit. Everything in the Military goes through channels. It's like they say -- there's the right way, there's the Military way, and there's bullshit. The CO (Commanding Officer) does the nominating. So you're talking bullshit and insulting every veteran who won an award.

7.) "Kerry was "unpatriotic" by speaking out against Vietnam vets after he came home from the war."

How dare he exercise the rights he fought for!

Incidentally, war crimes are against the UMCJ. Reporting war crimes is the duty of any soldier who witnesses them. What part of the word "duty" escapes you?

8.) "Kerry opposes outsourcing and moving American businesses overseas, yet his own wife's Heinz business empire has a majority of its factories overseas. If he gets in office, will Teresa Heinz practice what she and her husband preach by moving a majority of Heinz factories back to the U.S.?"

Teresa Heinz does not own the Heinz company. She doesn't even own a controlling bloc of the capital -- it's actually close to 5%. Once again, another Republican bullshit excuse.

9.) "There are no legitimate proposals or plans in the works (aside from the infamous Charlie Rangel legislation) to "bring back the draft." So young people shouldn't have to worry about being drafted under a second Bush term."

The Bush administration has already broken nearly all its promises already. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. They can, and will, revive the draft at the pleasure of the pResident.
Good luck! And remember, if you're not drawing blood, you're not really trying.

--bkl
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Awesome!!!
Excellent!! - - this will definitely help me in starting my research on these silly allegations against Kerry.

Thanks, BareKnuckledLiberal! You rock!!
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TheRovingGourmet Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I talked to one of the Vets Against Kerry guys the other day
and #2 was a big issue with him but I have not checked THOMAS to see what he was talking about.

For #6, wouldn't you have to request most of your medals? Or at least make someone aware of what happened so you can be considered for a medal?
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. no
I was in the military and on a couple of occasions I was awarded medals while standing in formation in the morning and had not a clue that I was up for anything. That (#6) my friend is total and complete bullshit.
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topanga Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. The NeoCons would be able to understand your answers anyway..
So why bother? I can't wait until we can just ignore them again, it was so much more pleasant with Bill Clinton in office.

Here's to wishing for a three'fer, house, senate and presidency!
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Except it isn't "NeoCons" who I'm talking with...
I'm not going to bother trying to change the minds of partisan Republicans. My dad, for example, is a lost cause.

Others, like my mom, have just been fed constant misinformation from the media. They could be swayed, but I'm only familiar with very general details to rebut.

I have no doubts about my own vote (for Kerry), but I need to help others reach the same point.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Take these suggestions
and check out the posts in DU for a while. You might also want to try listening to Air America or checking out some of the other blogs. A great place for information and ammunition is The Center For American Progress, a progressive think tank with an excellent website that you can't go on living without: http://www.centerforamericanprogress.org

Good luck! :toast:
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. It is a big problem
The bush propaganda machine is very effective. I know people who are voting for Kerry who believe some of the lies. We have been told so many times he is a flip flopper that people are willing to vote for him in spite of that, but still believe it.

One tack I take is t o give examples of how Bush and his minions lie and distort the truth. And to tell people that they have been fed a steady stream of these lies. If everyone in Congress votes against a bill that has one defense cut in it, the GOP will claim this is a defense bill Kerry voted against and therefore he is weak on defense. They use a grain of truth but twist it to infer things that aren't true.

Then turn it around. The real flip flopper is bush. First for then against: campaign finance, 9/11 commission, Dept of Homeland Security, WMD's as a reason to get Saddam, etc. Then we had tax cuts because we have a surplus, tax cuts because we have a deficit, etc.
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. On the taxes point
Check this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x712773

The Wall Street Journal reports that there is no difference between what taxes would be on married couples until over $190k a year. This means no change (or less taxes) for 95% of Americans.

Kerry's intention is to roll back the tax cuts on extremely wealthy taxpayers.

Taxpayers Income Current Kerry Difference
--------- ------ ------- ----- ----------

Married $190K 30,500 $30,500 0


Single $275K 59,800 62,300 2,500


Married $500k 111,350 118,450 7,100

Married $750k 167,250 190,450 23,200

Married $1Million 215,250 250,100 34,580


Source: Deloit & Touche
WSJ page D2 8/26/04
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. This is great!
I never believed the whole "raising taxes" myth, but now I have the numbers to back it up.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
33. 7 & 8
7 - He didn't speak out _against_ vets, he spoke out _for_ them. Get the quotes from any of the places that have the transcripts of the testimony. There were unquestionably atrocities committed in Viet Nam, but Kerry never held vets as a group responsible for them - he just reported that they occurred. In many more ways he was reporting to congress what vets thought.

8 - Heinz sells the majority of its products overseas, something like 60%. Once again, you can find the backup for that yourself if you care to, but that's the fact. Note also that THK controls less than 4% of Heinz stock and hasn't had any operational input for years.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Quotes
Kerry, the Congressional Record, 1971:

"Mr. Kerry: Well, Senator, frankly it does not appeal to me if American men have to continue to die when they don't have to, particularly when it seems the Government of this country is more concerned with the legality of where men sleep than it is with the legality of where they drop bombs. (Applause.)...

...But at the present moment that is not going to happen, so we are talking about men continuing to die for nothing and I think there is a tremendous moral question here which the Congress of the United States is ignoring...

...But I think if we can talk in this legislative body about filibustering for porkbarrel programs, then we should start now to talk about filibustering for the saving of lives and of our country. (Applause.)

And this, Mr. Chairman, is what we are trying to convey

********

Hey Richard, I was just in Jackson Hole a couple weeks ago. Wore my Kerry button on my hat (with some trepidation at first), and FIVE people came up and commented on how it was the best thing they'd seen that day, including one salesgirl who chased me down and begged me to tell her where to get one. I gave her one of mine.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Thanks
:)
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. You're welcome
And I'm glad you didn't let the pissiness in this thread turn you off.

We all sit around the DU hothouse and gripe. ;-) Gets a little close in here sometimes.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. I doubt we can carry Wyoming
but I'm beginning to think we've got a shot up here in Teton County. This is the most Democratic leaning area of the state - we tell people we've got most of the trees and most of the Democrats in the Wyoming. I live in the town of Wilson where we've sent out a Dem (Ladd) to fight the good fight against Barbara Cubin for Wyoming's ONE House seat.

I've got some of the TwoUnemployedDemocrats.com stickers on my Pathfinder - a couple of months ago I got physically accosted in a parking lot about them (it's OK, I'm old and I cheated - he ended up on the ground and I walked away :-). In the last couple of weeks I'm far more likely to get asked if I've got any extras.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Thanks for the info
Good to know the truth.
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
45. Here is an idea
Tell all critics to go on the intenet and watch Kerry's speech to the VFW. Or if it is repeated again on CSPAN, better to have them watch it on TV. All the crticisms of him being weak or flip floppy just melt away whey you hear him. This was a terrific speech.
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. You probably mean the American Legion speech
The one he gave today?

I agree, it was an excellent speech.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I will
Thank you :)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. Hoo
CLIP-FLOP
Paid for by Kerry-Edwards 2004, Inc. CLIP-FLOP Republicans Creative Editing Distorts of Kerrys Iraq Position 1. Face the Nation, 9/23/2001 Republican video: Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/pr_2004_0728.pdf


John Kerry for President - Kerry Calls for Halt to Work of Base-Closing Panel
...presidential nominee, called Friday for a halt to the work of the Bush administration's commission on closing military bases, saying it "is driven more by ideology than by careful planning." "There's a terrible disconnect...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0313b.html


John Kerry for President - A Military Family Bill Of Rights
...A Military Family Bill Of Rights John Kerry and John Edwards believe that military families must be treated with the respect they deserve. As president, John Kerry will propose a Military Family Bill of Rights that will provide...
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/veterans/milfamilies.html


John Kerry for President - Kerry Seeks Tax Fairness for Hard Working Americans
...Kerry Seeks Tax Fairness for Hard Working Americans Middle Class and Working Families Are Taxed More Under Bush For Immediate Release "Tax Fairness for Americans" Read the Speech Chicago, IL - After meeting...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0310.html


John Kerry for President - Bush Tax Plan: Would Levy New Tax on Middle Class on Top of State & Local Taxes
...Bush Tax Plan: Would Levy New Tax on Middle Class on Top of State & Local Taxes For Immediate Release complete text hereThis week, George Bush said that he is interested in implementing a national sales tax, a move that would...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0812d.html


The Kerry-Edwards Pro-Jobs Tax Reform Plan
THE KERRY-EDWARDS PRO-JOBS TAX REFORM PLAN The Most Sweeping International Tax Reform in Over Four Decades In Order to Encourage Companies to Create Jobs in America and Stop Shifting Jobs Overseas for Tax Reasons The Kerry-Edwards...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/tax_reform.pdf


John Kerry for President - Kerry Will End Overseas Tax Breaks
...End Overseas Tax Breaks Associated Press By Ron Fournier Washington, DC - John Kerry, promising to create 10 million jobs and keep them in America, said Friday he would cut corporate taxes by 5 percent and eliminate tax...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0326.html


JOHN KERRY AND JOHN EDWARDS PRO-JOBS, PRO-FAMILY TAX CUTS
...KERRY AND JOHN EDWARDS PRO-JOBS, PRO-FAMILY TAX CUTS More than Twice as Much in New Tax Cuts than Bush-Cheney John Kerry and John Edwards are proposing a major package of pro-jobs, pro-family tax cuts to help create good-paying...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/pr_2004_0812.pdf


John Kerry for President - Bush falsely accuses Kerry of voting 350 times for tax increases
...Bush campaign falsely accuses Kerry of voting 350 times for tax increases. Bushs own words mislead reporters. FactCheck.org (Annenberg Political Fact Check) Summary The President misled voters and reporters in a March 20...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0324.html


John Kerry for President - Bushs Top Econ Advisor Calls for 50 Cent Gas Tax
...Bushs Top Econ Advisor Calls for 50 Cent Gas Tax For Immediate Release President Bushs top economic advisor, Gregory Mankiw, advocates a 50 cent gas tax as a way to strengthen the economy. Gas prices already are at an all-time...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0330b.html


John Kerry for President - Tax Fairness for Americans
...Tax Fairness for Americans Remarks of John Kerry Thank you John, Rich, Linda, and members of the Executive Council, for inviting me to spend a few minutes talking with you about whats at stake in this election. I want to...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0310.html


John Kerry for President - Bush Administration Leads the Charge for Higher Gas Taxes
...Leads the Charge for Higher Gas Taxes For Immediate Release The Bush Campaign is playing fast and loose with the facts. John Kerry never introduced, co-sponsored or passed a fifty-cent gas tax. But George Bushs...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0518a.html


John Kerry for President - Kerry Highlights Economic Plan to Create Jobs, Cut Taxes and Strengthen the Middle Class
...Kerry Highlights Economic Plan to Create Jobs, Cut Taxes and Strengthen the Middle Class Kicks Off Two Week A Stronger America Begins at Home: The Path to Prosperity Focus on the Kerry-Edwards Plan for a Stronger Economy For...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0812.html


JOHN KERRYS PLAN TO MAKE QUALITY HEALTH COVERAGE AFFORDABLE FOR AMERICA
...www.JohnKerry.com JOHN KERRYS PLAN TO MAKE QUALITY HEALTH COVERAGE AFFORDABLE FOR AMERICA Highlights Importance of Real Patient Protections At SEIU Convention Skyrocketing health care costs not only make it difficult for...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/pr_2004_0623.pdf


John Kerry for President - Kerry Focuses on the Fundamental Choice on Health Care in Town Hall with Undecided Voters
...Health Care Energy Independence Homeland Security Education Environment More Issues... Take Action Contribute to DNC Be a Volunteer Volunteer Center Recruit Friends Voter Outreach Contact Media Raise Money...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0826.html


John Kerry for President - Vietnam lessons shape Kerry as a leader
...Vietnam lessons shape Kerry as a leader USA TODAY Andrea Stone John Kerry stood in the pilothouse of his swift boat as it churned noisily up the mangrove-choked Dong Cung River in Vietnam's Ca Mau Peninsula. The young...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0413.html


John Kerry for President - John Kerry's Vietnam Service Timeline
...John Kerry's Vietnam Service Timeline February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy August 22, 1966 Kerry reports for Naval Officer Candidate School at the U.S. Naval Training Center in Newport, Rhode...
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html


Vietnam Service Medal
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Vietnam_Service_Medal.pdf


John Kerry for President - Kerry Campaign Announces Significant New Ad Buy Introducing John Kerrys Lifetime of Service and Strength
...crewmates lives in Vietnam; fighting for victims rights as a prosecutor; and serving America in the Senate as a strong voice for issues that make a difference in the lives of every day Americans. In Heart, Kerry Vietnam...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0503d.html


John Kerry for President - Nixon impressed by Kerry, tried to derail him
...hitting him, Mr. President," White House special counsel Charles Colson told Nixon a week after Kerry led a protest of Vietnam veterans against the war. Later, according to an MSNBC report on the old tapes, Nixon Chief of Staff...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0316c.html


John Kerry for President - Kerry counting on veterans to help him win
...Navy service in Vietnam defined John Kerry's life, and now it's defining his presidential campaign against a wartime commander in chief. More than any other candidate since John F. Kennedy, another Democratic senator from...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0407.html


John Kerry for President - Why Kerry threw his ribbons
...wanted to wake up their country to the disastrous tragedy of Vietnam. Salon by Douglas Brinkley Just days before Christmas in 2002, I interviewed Sen. John Kerry about his Vietnam combat experiences at his cluttered study high...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0428b.html


John Kerry for President - Nixon impressed by Kerry, tried to derail him
...hitting him, Mr. President," White House special counsel Charles Colson told Nixon a week after Kerry led a protest of Vietnam veterans against the war. Later, according to an MSNBC report on the old tapes, Nixon Chief of Staff...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0316c.html


John Kerry for President - Kerry-Edwards Campaign Debunks False Swift Boat Attacks; Sets the Record Straight With New Ad
...to John Kerry's heroic and honorable service in Vietnam. In the ad, long-time registered Republican, former Lt. Jim Rassmann relives his experience on the Mekong Delta in Vietnam the day that Lt. John Kerry saved his life. The...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0819.html


John Kerry for President - Jim Rassmann: John Kerry saved my life. Now his heroism is being questioned.
...lieutenant with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, served with the U.S. Army 5th Special Forces Group in Vietnam 1968-69. I came to know Lt. John Kerry during the spring of 1969. He and his swift boat crew assisted in...
http://www.johnkerry.com/commentary/081004_rassmann.html


Hand-in-Glove: The Bush-Cheney Ties to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
...has been providing legal advice for a veterans group that is challenging Democratic Sen. John Kerrys account of his Vietnam War service. Benjamin Ginsberg's acknowledgment marks the second time in days that an individual associated...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/pr_2004_0825f.pdf


John Kerry for President - Veterans see Kerry as powerful symbol
...Scorned, spat upon and ignored when they returned home from battle, Vietnam veterans are finding vindication and a voice in Sen. John Kerry three decades later, several veterans said yesterday. Its a renaissance for us, said...
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0124d.html


BushDraft.com Exposing the truth behind the Bush plan to bring back the draft
Details the plan Bush has to reinstate the military draft by June 2005 ... would like to help spread the message about Bush's draft plans, you can download an A4 sized flyer ... help spread the message about Bush's draft plans, you can download an ...
http://www.bushdraft.com




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