Has anyone met a Viet Nam vet that disputes Kerry's 71 testimony?

[hexola]

Every old Nam guy I ask about this...agrees with everything. A few have even told me stories about killing people, killing children and just generally foul behaviour...truly sad stuff. Some of these conversations occured 10 years ago - well in advance of the current shit storm...

I've been told the Kerry's movement was much more popular than is being described. It was the tiny minority that were perturbed by his testimony...

And here's a few comments from non-vets about that era:

poppa writes:

Kerry was highly visible until about 1971. At that time Kovac became one of the heads of V VAW(Vietnam Veterans Against the War}.He of "Born on the Fourth of July" fame. I loved those guys, they saved my ass at the Republican Convention in Miami Beach in 1972. The cops were coming to bash the Hippies' heads and out of the Pepper Gas and Tear Gas came marching those guys, some in wheelchairs. The cops took one look and retreated. It was F--KING beautiful. I was slightly more radical then than I am now.

djgtrmon writes:

Okay... I remember him as one of the guys that was in line with most Vietnam vets that came back... they were against the war, they thought it was wrong, and they understood us being looked at as aggressors and killers of family by the locals... they understood that everyone had a cousin, a brother, a wife and we were turning locals into "Viet Cong" all on our own... Kerry was a tremendous validation for the way these guys felt, and he was speaking about the way they felt... I think his testimony was more about how they felt than expressing his own feelings... they were screwed by their country, dismissed by the Veterans Administration; the V V A W (Vietnam Veterans Against The War) did more for them than the Veterans Administration.... Kerry was one of many... very few came back feeling the war is right... no one that I knew actually... the older vets were pissed at the Vietnam Vets for not going along mindlessly to a certain extent, but many of the older guys seemed to know the truth as something other than the administration line... as you know later many Vietnam Vets felt ignored and screwed by the American public at large and by the administration... Vietnam Vet biker clubs flourished... Kerry was one of many and this was understood... he was sort of a surprise in that there wasn't much that could be denied at that time about his service and he wasn't excoriated to the extent that Republican serving boys are trying to do now with their lies and innuendo that he wasn't a hero... they didn't try that shit back then... I was gonna stay calm about this cause I'll undoubtedly get some guys pissed at me but hey, that's how I remember it. I remember guys coming back and talking excitedly about directing cannon to hit garbage dumps instead of villages and so on and I remember them coming back with duffel bags full of good shit... hippies might have started turning on America but the Vietnam Vets pitched in wholeheartedly... this is more than just about Kerry of course. Many Vietnam Vets became the hippiest of the hippies, and these were hippies you didn't fuck with cause they knew what was up and had validation from the front line... war is a tough nut all around, only the rich and powerful see it as a way to go really...
Once again, Kerry was one of many and this was understood.

[ROC]

1. Yes nt

[Southern Patriot]

2. Yes. It depends on where they served and what duty.

You're sadly mistaken if you think that there is some mass of Vietnam Vets who silently support Kerry's version.

The Repubs are mischaracterizing Kerry's testimony to some extent. He didn't say that every American soldier in Vietnam was a war criminal. But his statements, typical of that era of bitter conflict, were somewhat hyperbolic.

Kerry needs to clarify his anti-war record and seek reconciliation with the vets. It won't be instantaneous or easy but in the end it would benefit the nation as well as his campaign.

[Bandit]

10. I support Kerry's version and I have personal knowledge

I have been silent for over thirty years. I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I am not alone

[hexola]

3. Is it a war of anecdotes?

It seems everyone wants to typify the war based on their experience. Some saw this stuff - some didn't.

I know one fellow I used to work with carried a picture of a man he had to kill with his bare hands. The picture was in the dead man's wallet. This same guy told me the final straw for him was killing children. That's the stuff that haunted him the most. If I didn't kill them - they would kill me...he said.

He was Navy Seal...

[Hepburn]

4. No...

...and what some have told me is absolutely sickening. The only ones who seem to dispute that atrocities took place are those who are anti-Kerry and seem to have another agenda.

The fact that My Lai took place, IMO, diputes any vet who attempts to say that there were no atrocities.

[GOPAgainstGW]

5. Did You Know Colin Powell Covered Up My Lai when he was a Major in Nam!!

It's true and been well doucmented in public military records.

Send Fox News over to the Sec of State's office and see if Powell can pass a polygraph test on the subject!

Powell ain't alone either as to big names that participated in U.S. atrocities against civilians over in Nam.

The guy that know everything is Seymour Hersh at the New Yorker magazine that broke both My Lai in 69 and the Abu Ghraib prison torture Iraq scandal in May 2004. Seys got a Pulizer Prize for his My Lai little jewel!

Oh and Seymour hates Bush! When Seys broke the Abu Ghraib scandal, Bush called him a liar and a phoney at a press conference. Ended up Bush was the liar and the phoney, but Seymour is really gunning for Bush and he is probably the best connected journalist in DC.

Maybe Seys will have his own October surprise for Bush & Cheney. LOL.

[wicket]

6. No, in fact, they back up his claims

n/t

[Sparkly]

7. Two Words: Tiger Force

It's way too late for people to continue to contend these things didn't happen.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=711339&mesg_id=711339

[PA Democrat]

8. Toledo Blade did a Pulitzer Prize winning series on Vietnam atrocities

Known as Tiger Force, the platoon was created by a U.S. Army engaged in a new kind of war - one defined by ambushes, booby traps, and a nearly invisible enemy.

Promising victory to an anxious American public, military leaders in 1967 sent a task force - including Tiger Force - to fight the enemy in one of the most highly contested areas of South Vietnam: the Central Highlands.

But the platoon's mission did not go as planned, with some soldiers breaking the rules of war.

Women and children were intentionally blown up in underground bunkers. Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for their gold fillings.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031022/SRTIGERFORCE/110190168

[brentspeak]

19. Tiger Force's atrocities are almost word-for-word what Kerry described

And it wasn't until LAST YEAR that the actions of Tiger Force were revealed to the public. Some guy who's doing a study of Vietnam War atrocities says that there's hundreds of more incidents similar to Tiger Force in the military records that have never been prosecuted, let alone made known public.

[Minimus]

9. .. doth protest too much, methinks (apologies to WS)

I said it before. It seems the sbv guys have a guilt complex or something. Why protest so much about something you did not do?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. As a counselor, I dealt with VietVets regularly.

Combat vets. They bragged about atrocities, or were injured at the memory of what they saw and/or did. I wasn't seeing them because they were doing well in life.

But, Americans love to cling to the belief that they were noble guys defending freedom and passing out candy bars.

[trogdor]

12. Somebody needs to ask...

...how does one go about committing high treason by testifying to a committee of the United States Senate? If there were any sensitive topics being discussed, the committee could have insisted upon having the hearing closed to the public, like much of the 9/11 hearings. They weren't. CBS News was there and everything. It wasn't about betraying the troops, it was about dropping a roll of dimes on the Nixon administration. Kerry is a grave threat to the VRWF in many ways, so the shitstorm that is now ensuing doesn't surprise me one bit.

[Leilani]

13. There are as many different stories

as there are Vietnam Vets.

It varied so much.

What branch of service?
What was the mission?
Where were they stationed?
When were they there?

The war was not a static thing, it changed over the years, & varied from person to person.

Obviously, those handling 5:00 follies in Saigon, differed from Seal Team missions.

[Ready4Change]

14. Yes.

I've met some who firmly believe Kerry's a liar a traitor. I've met some who think he said ALL vets committed atrocities, and agree with him. And for the most part, these vets with extreme views, in EITHER direction, never saw direct combat.

Vets who saw actual combat seem to come more from the middle views, claiming greater or lesser percentages commited atrocities. Whether they agree with Kerry seems to vary with what version of his remarks they've heard. Those who listened to, or read, his full speach agree with him that atrocities were committed.

Those who didn't really listen, or who have just heard or read the blurbs that make it sound like Kerry accuses ALL vets of atrocities, disagree with him. This latter group is VERY angry with him, and it's very hard to get them to consider the entirety of Kerry's message.

[DURHAM D]

18. Amen - I work with a man who served two tours in Vietnam and

has constant contact with former vets. He was telling me just yesterday his recent encounters with various men which mirrors your account.

However, what upsets him very much is the number of people who claim to have served in Vietnam and are very vocal about their views (anti-Kerry) yet it is clear to him they never left the states or were never in the military and definitely did not serve in Vietnam. He just walks away but it is getting harder and harder for him to do so. He does not want to fight this war again.

Neither do I and I certainly don't want to hear crap out of the mouths of people like Joe Scarborough who got overly, dishonestly, emotional last night about a matter in which he has no personal experience, just personal propaganda. If one was not at least in their late teens by 1970 they can not possibly understand what was really going on in the collective emotions of this country.

[marlakay]

15. No no no no no no no!!!

My husband was in nam war he said kerry telling the truth. My best friends husband was navy seal in nam and he was messed up for years because of having to kill women and kids. Having I say. They told him to do it!!!

They are divorced for many years and I have no contact with him but I wish I did now.

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Spoke to an old friend the other day

who did two tours in Vietnam.

He said when he came back, he was very confused. When he heard Kerry's Senate Testimony back in 1971, it pulled it all together for him. He said that what Kerry told the Senate was true. He himself had committed such atrocities. For him, Kerry's testimony helped him heal, because then he knew he wasn't the only feeling the things he felt. He credits Kerry with motivating him to join Vets for Peace way back then, when they first started out.

He's come a long way since then, and after lot's of therapy, he can now talk about what he went through with his close friends.

[TheRovingGourmet]

17. I have never met a Vietnam Vet that disputes the things that

Kerry talked about but I have met many that hate him for talking out of school. My understanding is that talking about the war being wrong and protesting it was okay, but "talking shop" in a public way was not. I talked to one man that always has his Vets Against Kerry "booth" set up and some of what he said sounded similar to what I already had heard.

I was very little during that war and that era and am aware that I can only minimally truly understand the "forces" that were at work during those years. That is one thing I hate about Vietnam being an issue this campaign season; the number of people that truly understand the era are shrinking.

[Karenina]

20. It's all about DENIAL

the continuous thread running through the American body politic. Each and every one of the intractible problems facing America today has this thread at its core. "We're the GOOD GUYS! WE HELP people! We're NOT racist," und so weiter und sofort... NO CLUE about the history of American foreign policy. How many American military actions in the last 50 years have resulted in "democracies" being "installed"? -0-

The dynamic you are seeing TRG is similar to what one sees in a family where child abuse is rampant. The kid who speaks out becomes the "target." If you have not viewed Kerry's testimony before the Congressional Committe, I ask that you do so and get back to me on the parallels you pick up. I'd be really interested in your take on it.

I lived through those times as a post-adolescent. We girls in my Manhattan 'hood generally avoided dating Vets. One too many stories about waking up with hands around the neck... (I hope I don't hit anyone's reflexes with that memory, but truth be told, the stories of guys going OFF in their sleep or otherwise were LEGION). Many too many boys from my generation were SO FUCKED UP BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION by what they saw and were forced to do... :cry: :cry: :cry: They dodged booby-trapped tunnels in a jungle one day and were unceremoniously dumped at an American airport the next. NO SUPPORT SYTEMS IN PLACE.

Viet Nam was a travesty. People are still dying TODAY from that clusterfuck, poisoned by the chemicals America used or "walking dead..." just so much detritus on Main Street U.S.A. Check your local dumpster or homeless shelter. Film at 11.... NOT.

If after so many decades and so much INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF of the incredibly devastating error, "miscalculations," OUTRIGHT LIES (Do also check Ladybird's diaries. Lyndon did NOT sleep well and SHE had little sympathy for him knowing HE KNEW it was a LIE), the horrific neglect of those who returned "alive" but in reality NEVER GOT BACK, America cannot accept the TRUTH, what hope in hell is there that the Iraq Redux can be seen for the unholy HORROR that it is?

Just wondering. :shrug:

Blowback coming to a Main Street near you. These kids in Iraq have seen up close and personal how they've been *ROYALLY FUCKED OVER. Some may be in denial, FORCED to believe their blown off limbs contributed to some "good cause." Read "Stars and Stripes." Lebkuchen often posts links. Where's that ANGER gonna go? ACHTUNG!!! Paß auf!