CQ Politics...Some Clinton supporters plan to get rid of Reid, Dean...and mad at Pelosi.

[madfloridian]

CQ Politics has really been giving a lot of free media time to the assorted PUMA groups. They are forming new groups all the time, so they need the extra attention.

The group is also smearing "liberal radio host Ed Schultz, Washington Post columnist Sally Quinn and CNN correspondent John Roberts" for not being nice to Sarah Palin.

Here are a couple of their goals. Not sure why CQ gives them so much continued coverage. Maybe a good idea to be aware.

Feldman says she is now rallying support to have Clinton elevated to Senate majority leader next year, in place of Harry Reid of Nevada, and to have Dean removed as chairman of the DNC. All the energy the group put into winning Clinton a convention vote "is now going to be channeled into making sure the Democratic Party does not inherit such incompetent leadership as we have had to endure this election season," she says.

CQ Politics

Incompetent leadership? More on it. Feldman says they intimidated delegates into voting for Obama.

Heidi Li Feldman, a Georgetown University Law School professor who co-founded the group, ran ads in major Washington publications, including CQ Today, in advance of the Democrats' Denver convention to pressure party leaders to give Clinton a vote at the convention. Ultimately party leaders acquiesced, but Feldman says Dean and the Obama campaign intimidated Clinton delegates and pressured the New York senator to release her supporters from their obligation to vote for her. The vote was short-circuited when Clinton called for Obama's nomination by acclamation.

I really can't totally blame them, because they got it from a former president...the idea that delegates were intimidated.

Blaming the DNC for what two states did.

Today, at the first of five campaign events in Kentucky, just days ahead of the May 20 primary here, the former president said the lack of attention to the unseated Michigan and Florida delegates was proof that the party and the political pundits are trying to force Democrats to get in line behind Obama.

....."What did the Democratic National Committee do? They obliterated them. Who cares if you wanted to get up there with these other states because you've been broken by this economic policy of the current administration. We're gonna show you who's boss. We are obliterating you from the face of the earth and pretending that your voters did not vote. You just have to know, that is the position of your national party. Nobody quarrels with their right to discipline them. They made a decision they did not have to make. And do you seriously believe, if the votes had been the other way, that they would have made the same decision?" Clinton asked a crowd in Owensboro.

It is hard to take back words that accuse others. The supporters who took this to heart are not listening to the pleas of unity.

Here is more on their membership, their financial capability, and who they are going after.

The group includes a number of female business executives, including Susie Tompkins Buell, founder of the clothing label Esprit; Stacy Mason, a former Washington, D.C., newspaper editor and publisher; and Amy Rao, founder of the tech firm Integrated Archive Systems. And it is supporting a number of Democratic women running for Congress, among them Jeanne Shaheen, the former New Hampshire governor trying to unseat Republican Sen. John E. Sununu .

Camposano says WomenCount's biggest campaign this fall will be titled "Stop the Silence on Sexism." She won't talk about details, but the group is still hopping mad at Howard Dean, the Democratic National Committee chairman, and at House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for not doing more to defend Clinton from what Camposano calls "outright bashing." Both party leaders, she said, were "incredibly disloyal."

Where I live it is now impossible to hold a decent conversation about the election. The harm done is enormous, and the truth has never been admitted to....that there was an honest and true primary in which rules were scrupulously followed.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Great... we have our own Rovian asscarrots...

:thumbsdown:

[blm]

2. In Massachusetts, they're working WITH crossover voting GOPs to try and take out Kerry this Tuesday

because he supported Obama early with his national organization that had been in place, outperforming the Clintons' national network. They have been hoping for low turnout so their 'stealth' campaign for O'Reilly will succeed.

O'Reilly has been going on the RW talk shows and doing RW media interviews regularly.

NEVER trust anyone just claiming to be a Democrat, especially when they say they want a low turnout of voters.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/politics/view.bg?articleid=1118525

Democratic primary challenger Ed O’Reilly predicts he can upset incumbent Sen. John F. Kerry next week, saying his stealth campaign coupled with low voter turnout will take Kerry by surprise.

“I need to stay under the radar screen,” O’Reilly told Herald reporters and editors yesterday, noting the Sept. 16 election isn’t expected to bring out many voters. “A low turnout is better for me. The people coming out next week know who they are voting for.”
>>>>

[Abugface]

3. Republican shills

smells of rovian poop.

[madfloridian]

4. That is just horrible, blm. I am so sorry about that.

I suspect some here of undermining, no proof except this.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2594

But he is only the vice chair of the FL party....:sarcasm:

[blm]

6. Well, mf, when we both predicted this back in 2005 I wish we were proved wrong. Unfortunately,

our instincts were DEAD ON.

[madfloridian]

62. Yep

And we often got in hot water for saying it.

I wish Kerry the best of luck....he's a good man. I hope the party is aware and standing behind him. He's a good spokesman for Obama.

[Nikki Stone1]

7. We need to send Kerry $$$ for GOTV and right away.

I'll bet O'Reilly is getting lots of GOP funding. This is just a disaster.

[karynnj]

126. Actually, O'Reilly has very little money

He destroyed any chance of raising money on DKos, as others like Lamont and Tasini did to challenge Leiberman and HRC, by arguing that Kerry needed to answer some of the SBVT comments and other incredibly asinine things. He has put about $400,000 (and he is running as the working class guy) of his own money in. A few months ago, he claimed he was not fund raising because it took time away from campaigning - but he actually raised very very little.

If you go to Kerry's johnkerryforsenatecom website you will see he has what looks like every union's endorsement. He has Kennedy and Patrick strongly backing him. His biggest danger is people not knowing there is a primary - but that may be hard to miss as Kerry has had ads out, including a great one that Gore did endorsing him and a very nice one that includes a soldier who requested Kerry give him the purple heart he earned at Fenway Park - he was joking, but Kerry made it happen.

[Tutonic]

72. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. If the Boston Herald has figured

out what O'Reilly is doing, I'm gonna venture to guess that Kerry and the Democratic machine in Massachusetts knows what he is doing. A low turnout is better for him? Hahhhaaa! Now we know why PUMA has only 17 members. This dolt is a fool. Low turnout means the loyal voters would come out to vote. High turnout means that he has created enthusiasm for his candidacy. I'm gonna predict that after September 16th we won't hear much from Ed.

[karynnj]

104. The polls have showed that O'reilly has little support

I volunteered to do some phone banking and I phone banked long enough to get 20 people saying they would vote for Kerry, many interrupting to say that as soon as I said who I was calling for, many adding a nice comment. There were also 2 lean Kerry 1 undecided, 1 Republican, and 5 refused to say (15 hung up before the call even started) Even if you assume that all the refused simply didn't want to tell me they were for O'Reilly, that's less than 20%.

I can't believe he was dumb enough to tell the Boston Herald that his strategy was to go under the wire, hoping for a low turn out - so he could win. If it were his strategy doesn't he get that he has to quiet about it? In fact, he spent the last 2 months demanding 23 debates with Kerry and refusing to meet with anyone but Kerry to set them up. 2 weeks ago he relented and one short debate was set up which they had. Then he complained that they should debate every day until the election. I guess so he could again tell the Senator that his committee assignments were poor.

[karynnj]

129. Great points

It's like he knows his numbers are low,so he hopes that Kerry gets fewer out because no one knows there's an election. Is his strategy, "Pay no attention to those Kerry ads - there's no election."

I for one would prefer never hearing of this jerk again.

[YvonneCa]

139. Tha's awful. I didn't know ...

....this. Can we help?

[blm]

140. I have no doubt Kerry will prevail, but, it's the attempt to take him down that is disgusting and

pretty damn unpatriotic considering Kerry's key (and lonely)role in the last 35 yrs of fighting the fascism agemda.

[YvonneCa]

146. I think most people see the Democrats as monolithic...

...on policy. For sure, that's how we are portrayed. I understand that it's important to present a unified front. But there is a real struggle going on in the party now that more people need to understand and become a part of.

We're not monlithic...there is definitely push/pull within the party on party direction and on big issues. That struggle was very apparent after 2004...as we searched for understanding what had happened and looked for a new direction. Some said we should become more centrist and 'go along to get along'. In order to win, some said, we had to become more like the Republicans. Others said we needed to stand up for what we believe...clearly and loudly...and not be afraid to be authentic.

When we selected Dean to lead (over McAuliffe) the direction was clearly change over status quo. It was authenticity over Rove-style politics. It was 'fight for what we believe' over, 'going along to get along.' I was REALLY glad about that...not just because of the 50 state strategy, but because I knew Dean understood that the future of the party depended upon us getting straight with our real values, understanding what REAL changes were needed, and FIGHTING for those changes...not compromising them away. (Not to say I don't believe in compromise. :) )

We are really, still, in a struggle over this. The Clinton, McAuliffe, DLC, centrist side fought a primary with old tactics and they compromised their values. I don't think the Clinton camp ever really understood what it was that was missing for some of us...Hillary Clinton NEVER made the case for how we Democrats, AND what we authentically believe, are better for the country (even though I am sure she knows this). She discussed important issues...education, health care, the economy, etc...that I agree with her on, but stopped there. She didn't take the discussion to the higher plane of "Our party's positions on these issues are right because...". At least not enough. She stayed at the nuts and bolts level, instead of a new vision level. She used the Rovian tactics, which was a red flag for some of us that she didn't get it. And that's also why she could never be on an Obama ticket.

The Obama/Biden, Dean, Kennedy/Kerry progressive side of the party spoke authentically to audiences of a new direction and what our party SHOULD be and stand for. They didn't just do 'sound-bite' politics...Obama explained, in depth, the change the country needs on issues from religion and race, to health care, to Iraq and economic policy. He clearly struck a nerve, as the crowds grew to unprecented proportions and young people became involved in ways never before seen. I think the American public was hungry for this kind of message and leadership.

If it is true that the Clintons are still trying to consolidate power in Congress...which is actually not surprising to me, then our struggle continues. If people are trying to force Dean out, then our struggle continues. If McCain is allowed to win...sadly...our struggle continues. But a lot will have been lost...and we may not recover. JMHO.

So, I hope progressive Democrats will continue the fight begun in 2004 with the election of Howard Dean as DNC chairman (and before :) ). We need to support Howard Dean. We need to get behind Obama/Biden (and Kennedy and Kerry) and fight hard...as they have been fighting for us. As they all have said from time to time...they cannot do this alone. This is NOT about them. If we progressive Democrats really want to 'perfect our union' (to use Obama's words) then we have to fight for it. Now is NOT the time to falter.

This isn't over...not yet.

:patriot:

[Nikki Stone1]

5. Madflo, face it, some people don't like Howard Dean

I personally think he wasted a lot of time with his 50-state strategy and would like to see more more strategic thinker in charge.

That said, we've got to get the rank and files PUMAs back into the fold. And that means that the Democrats will have to offer hope to these women and not insult them. Insults will just push them more into whatever Rovian plot this damned thing ultimately is.

[blm]

8. Face it - the fascist supporting wing of the Democratic party wants ALOT of our best Dem lawmakers

and leaders out of DC and out of the picture. And have for much longer than the last 4 years of Dean's chairmanship of the party.

[Nikki Stone1]

9. A non-sequitur is better than no sequitur at all, eh blm?

And, look it up.

[blm]

10. I know EXACTLY what I'm saying. And more Dems are waking up. Deal with it.

You may not like WHY I craft my replies the way I do, but, posts like yours NEED slapping down by those of us who side with open government Democrats. You can take your non sequitor claim and stick it so far up Rove's ass that James Carville couldn't find it.

[Nikki Stone1]

12. And that is not a non-sequitur how?

Careful, there's a double negative in there.

[blm]

26. If some people were bought for WHAT they know and sold for what they THINK they know

this nation could be out of debt in a matter of days.

[Nikki Stone1]

28. So you are suggesting we sell Howard Dean?

Or maybe one or both of the Clintons? :)

[blm]

33. Closed government protecting Democrats who aren't smart enough to realize they work against

this nation and FOR the fascist agenda whenever they target open government Democrats. Whoever fits into those shoes....

[Nikki Stone1]

36. Congratulations on your non sequiturs.

They are stunningly fabulous! :D

[blm]

41. non sequitors only to the deliberately obtuse. There are plenty of Dems here who understand

perfectly why I replied to you the way I did.

Unfortunately, there are also plenty of Dems here who side with the fascist wing of the party and enjoy patterning themselves like Republicans as they mock the good government wing of the party.

[Nikki Stone1]

45. If you don't the courage to fight directly, then go back to watching CSPAN.

Veiled insults are cowardly.

[blm]

51. This is direct - direct to you and the rest of the closed government apologists...

or are you being deliberately obtuse about that, too?

[Nikki Stone1]

63. I don't know what a closed government apologist is, so how about you enlighten me.

And stop being a coward.

[AuntPatsy]

15. I looked it up, it states it means a Non Follower, how is that helpful?

[Nikki Stone1]

20. Definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur

[AuntPatsy]

23. I got mine from the enclyopedia.....again,

[Nikki Stone1]

27. Read the wiki definition. It'll clear it up for you.

Then we can talk.

[AuntPatsy]

37. Isn't it true that wiki is not always accurate enough to use when something

is really important?

[Nikki Stone1]

40. I picked the easiest site for you, and you still can't go read it?

Give it a shot. Read it.

[AuntPatsy]

44. I find the encyclopedia to be pretty accurate when looking for definations...sorry just not a wiki

fan...

[Nikki Stone1]

47. I have been an English teacher for 14 years. I'll vouch for the Wiki definition.

Go read it.

[AuntPatsy]

52. Okay, so according to wiki, what your saying is that there are some that are not following

by using logic? Thats your argument with blm?

[blm]

54. She's saying my post wasn't a proper reply to hers. It was. Only someone in denial or deliberately

obtuse would hang their hat on the non sequitor dodge.

[Nikki Stone1]

69. Aunt Patsy, a non sequitur is an argument or remark which does not logically follow what preceded it

It comes from the Latin expression "non sequitur" which literally means "It does not follow." (The verb is in 3rd person passive voice present tense.)

blm's remarks do not follow from what I logically said. All I said was that some people don't like Howard Dean. blm immediately made assumptions about what I meant and her posts do not follow logically from mine, but from her own thoughts and her own ideas about the motives she ascribes to me. That is why I said "A non sequitur is better than no sequitur at all." It's a little joke, meaning any response (no matter how illogical) is better than none.

BLM has decided to follow me around with accusations. They are veiled to be sure, and I read them literally as non sequiturs. If blm really wants to accuse me of whatever horrible behavior she thinks I have, then she can have the courage to come out and say so directly.

Otherwise she should go back to watching CSPAN.

And why am I telling you all this? Because blm has a habit of reading and responding to posts that are not addressed to her. So I figure if I put this in a post to you, she'll respond. :)

[AuntPatsy]

70. Well thank you, honestly, I was not trying to be obtuse you know...but why don't you like Dean?

He was my original choice so I have followed him though not dilligently these last few years...

[Nikki Stone1]

74. I think he wasted a lot of time and money this year.

I also think he tends to be quite stubborn and doesn't read the handwriting on the wall until it is too late. He was taken on mostly for his fundraising abilities, but now that this race is getting close, and the Democratic ticket has turned down public campaign financing, it is stressing the Obama campaign when he least needs it.

[madfloridian]

81. Dean far outraised McAuliffe

Aha, I was right. Dean did indeed outraise McAuliffe.

From Jan. 1, 2001, when Terence R. McAuliffe took over the committee, through March 31, 2004, the DNC raised approximately $127 million in funds that could be spent directly on campaign activities. Between Jan. 1, 2005, and March 2008, the DNC raised $190 million, considerably more.

Dean became chair in Feb. 2005.

So don't tell stories about that. He spent it differently on building state parties...and the elite in DC did not like that.

[Nikki Stone1]

84. But we're down to the wire and Obama/Biden needs money.

I think a lot money was wasted on things that didn't help.

[madfloridian]

91. Did you know the Clinton big donors threatened Dean? Got money back?

Here you go...

True faces of the money men behind the curtain are showing now...threats to Dean and Pelosi.

Read it and stop spreading stories that are not true.

MORE:

Threats toward Howard Dean by Clinton's big donors this week should alarm us greatly.

I have more.

I am tired of the big money control of the party.

[Nikki Stone1]

99. Dean needed to handle this like the head of the DNC

In other words, he had to think strategically. Should he have suggested (strongly) that Obama put Hillary on the ticket? I don't know. And quite frankly, that's neither here nor there. The important thing is that Dean needed to think ahead and he didn't.

The links you sent me are "threats" but not actual records of what was donated by whom. Get me some real figures and we'll talk.

But all this has nothing to do with why I don't Howard Dean. I JUST DON'T LIKE HIM, OK?

[madfloridian]

107. Your attitude is awful. I will say good by.

I don't especially like what the Clintons have wrought. They lied about a good man who was trying to build the party

Now their supporters are stil here calling me a liar.

Sick of it...good by.

[Nikki Stone1]

125. Your attitude is completely incomprehensible, so goodbye.

Thank you for a trip down the rabbit hole. I wish I could say I enjoyed it.

:shrug:

[sniffa]

157. Bit of a nasty piece of work in this thread

You did yourself a favor. :hi:

[Raineyb]

132. I'm sorry but what you're suggesting would have been out of line

Obama had every right to choose whoever he wanted for is Vice-President. It was not up to Dean or any of Clinton's followers for that matter to make demands as to whom Obama should run with. It would have been out of line for Dean to have done it and it showed utter disrespect by the party members who actually did it. I doubt if the shoe was on the other foot that you'd make such a suggestion about Dean suggesting (strongly) that Clinton put Obama on her ticket when she had every right to choose who she wanted.

And Dean is a hell of a lot better than the Clinton flunk McAwful who never saw a corporatist he couldn't suck up to. It's no wonder we'd lost for so many years.

Regards

[Nikki Stone1]

155. Actually, no. Dean would have been in a position to broker a deal, especially

with a party in shambles.

Power is not just in the hands of one person. There are many Democratic party officials with individual bailywicks and fiefdoms.

[blm]

134. Clinton camp acts like a pack of EXTORTIONISTS holding their party loyalty for RANSOM.

Fock them. They are only as loyal as the Clintons, and that means....not much.

[dansolo]

94. Why do you claim that it didn't help?

Don't you think that the spending of that money helped us to pick up all three recent special election House seats in extremely red districts? We would have never picked up those seats if things were done the way you would have liked. That is what the 50-state strategy is all about. In some areas, it make take a few election cycles to shift things, but you must make the investment.

[Nikki Stone1]

100. Because down-ticket Democrats are having problems right now, which reminds me

DONATE to you local candidates. They need it.

[Doremus]

124. This, the day after the announcement of record donations.

You're trying awfully hard to slime the efforts of good people.

"Trouble down ticket"
"Campaign needs money"

Neither of those things are true, yet here you are repeating them over and over.

You don't like the 50-state strategy; Dean didn't strategize effectively, etc., etc.

The FACTS are that Dr. Dean has outperformed and outstrategized the DLC in every respect:

1. Raised more money than McAuliffe
2. Invested in infrastructure that previous short-sighted corporatist party leaders had allowed to crumble
3. Said infrastructure has borne fruit already; midterms and special Congressional elections
4. More individual donors, more volunteers by a magnitude of 10X, more voter registrations

Now, tell us about that superior HRC strategy. I'll wait.

[AuntPatsy]

85. I thought that the Obama campaign was accepting public financing?

And since it's obvious that Dean raised quite a bit of funds why would he be in the way that with the race being close though my own feeling is that Obama is much more ahead than the polls are stating...I've never been one for poll watching...polls are way to easy to tamper with....

[blm]

138. My post had appropriate logic to it and YOU are pretending it doesn't so YOU can ignore its content.

You created the dodge and then play dumb. Typical.

[Nikki Stone1]

143. Your post was a non sequitur to a comment that wasn't even addressed to you.

I'll bet you're a bad party guest too. :)

[blm]

53. I've been an anti-corruption, open government Democrat for over 14yrs.

You should read the BCCI report. If you are able to comprehend it you will likely switch sides and join the rest of us open government Democrats.

[AuntPatsy]

58. I happen to love Dean and agree with everything he has done so far, what I was not understanding

was why she or he seemed so angry, so I can assume it has to do with what is occuring to the party in Florida, all the infighting and their attempt to ensure Dean is kaput?

[Nikki Stone1]

77. If you are able to comprehend my question above, perhaps you will answer it.

If not, enjoy the rerun on CSPAN. :)

[Cha]

43. blm knows what she's saying and I agree..

Everyone likes Howard Dean except the dlc, james carville types.

[Nikki Stone1]

75. Nonsense.

Dean tends to be quite stubborn and doesn't read the handwriting on the wall until it is too late. He was put in charge of the DNC mostly for his fundraising abilities, but now that this race is getting close, and the Democratic ticket has turned down public campaign financing, it is stressing the Obama campaign when he least needs it.

[madfloridian]

89. Perhaps you did not see the fundraising for August. New records.

"From Jan. 1, 2001, when Terence R. McAuliffe took over the committee, through March 31, 2004, the DNC raised approximately $127 million in funds that could be spent directly on campaign activities. Between Jan. 1, 2005, and March 2008, the DNC raised $190 million, considerably more."

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2565

[Nikki Stone1]

95. Madflo, perhaps you do not see that our ticket is stuggling when it shouldn't be

because Howard Dean was totally unprepared for the Rovian tactics of the GOP this year. He was unprepared for Sarah Palin and took it for granted that this year was a win.

I am angry at Dean that my body hangs in the balance (with that whackadoodle Palin and the neocons) because he was too busy spending money on building up a 50-state apparatus and not on winning this election.

If you want to continue to adulate Dean as your hero, be my guest. You can even put long hair on him and pretend he's Fabio.

But women's lives are in the balance here and Dean was too busy playing "Build a party" to give a damn about that.

[madfloridian]

108. Good by.... I despise what the Clintons did to this party.

I will never forgive them for lying about it.

[Nikki Stone1]

122. All this because I don't like Howard Dean?

I never liked him. That's such a crime?

[Starry Messenger]

116. Where is the ticket struggling?

I just don't see where you are getting this stuff. Links. Not truthiness. :)

MPK

[Cha]

101. You're long winded but nothing comes out except

nonsensical tripe. Dean was elected to bring us structure and stability in 50 states.

I see facts aren't your forte.

[Nikki Stone1]

105. firmg['sdp dfsapiugqvn 4[ ofi[f]d5655 klo'

Enjoy!
:D

[madfloridian]

14. Those who don't want all states included have their own agenda.

Face it, Nikki...some don't like the Clintons after what they did in the primary.

Tit for tat. How long will it go on.

I don't effing care if they LIKE Dean....They are accusing him of cheating. That is unforgivable.

Why do you defend their lies?

[Nikki Stone1]

21. Where have I defended anyone's lies?

Please show me. I'd be quite interested.

[madfloridian]

30. What you did is really awful.

You turned what I posted from the fact that Bill Clinton said Dean and Obama were forcing delegates to vote for Obama....you turned that to "a lot of people don't like Dean."

NOW that is not being honest because you turned it from accusations of throwing the election to "not liking."

I don't know what you call that. I call it accepting lies by a former president and by the former supporters.

This is sad to me because we are no longer welcome among Democrats here because of those lies. We stood for the DNC, told them they were wrong to try to hurt Dean and crash his fundraising. They laughed.

These movements could be stopped, but people like you are still excusing them.

You as much as equated not "liking" Dean with the fact he was accused.

That's just awful.

[Nikki Stone1]

35. Apparently so awful you had to post it twice. Except there's nothing awful there.

All I said is that a lot of people don't like Howard Dean. Some people have never liked Howard Dean. How is this "supporting lies"? I personally know people who have never liked Howard Dean. He doesn't appeal to everyone. Personally, I can take him or leave him, although I think his strategy this year wasted a lot of time in states where we don't have a chance anyway.

How does that equate as awful?

Does it break your heart that I am not enamored of Howard Dean?

I feel like I have insulted your God instead of just making a political observation. That scares me a bit.

[madfloridian]

57. Well, that's fine then. I feel much freer now to state how i feel

about the Clintons and their supporters.

Instead of putting the country first, they put themselves first. Now their supporters are carrying on with this.

I don't like them, especially, but how does that change that they accused an honorable chairman of cheating?

See, what you did was twist the topic to try to hurt my feeling by saying you did not like Dean. I don't give a flying flip about your opinions about him or me or anything else.

I am tired of this bunch, but they are only saying things the Clintons previously said. They can stop it if they so desire.

Do you feel better now? No one who leads is really liked...that's part of the game.

I am not well-like here at all. The Hillary supporters wish me ill quite often.

But I post truth, and I am one of the few who did tell the truth during the primaries.

So you play the childish game of "I don't like Howard Dean"....and let others see you do it.

[Nikki Stone1]

66. Madflo, you clearly have taken this way beyond the original comment.

I don't understand all the emotion here. All I figure is that you adore Howard Dean. That's ok. But don't accuse me of things I haven't done.

I am a Democrat, I supporting Obama/Biden. I have no desire for the fundamentalist Christians to turn my country into "The Handmaid's Tale." And while I understand why some Democrats are angry at the primaries, I do not think that voting for an anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-corporate platform is the way to address this anger. I am trying to be open minded so that we can get some of these voters back. It's CRUCIAL.

With me so far?

However, I don't like Howard Dean. Sorry about that. But I don't. I think he wasted a lot of time and money, and I think we are suffering for it now.

Howard Dean is not God, and I'm going to get struck by lightning if I don't like him.

[madfloridian]

83. Well, then you don't see my point. Not liking someone is different than accusing them.

And sadly you don't seem to care about the difference.

I don't like the Clintons, but I want them on board because I want party unity.

Tit for tat, my friend. You want it you got it.

You never got my point....you were too busy making sure I knew you did not like Dean. I don't care who you like.

I am tired of being told we have to be nice and get you guys on effing board.

Catharsis time is over. Time to get to work.

[Nikki Stone1]

87. Hello? Is this thing on?

I didn't accuse Howard Dean of any nefarious activities. I said I didn't like him. When pressed, I said I said I didn't like his strategies.

IT'S OK IF I DON'T LIKE HOWARD DEAN!

I bet you don't like me, and that's ok!


But here you make an accusation (veiled): "I am tired of being told we have to be nice and get you guys on effing board."

What guys on effing board? Careful here.

I think it's you who can't tell the difference between not liking someone and accusing them.

[madfloridian]

93. Catharsis time is over. Stop stamping your feet and pouting.

.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

Dupe...deleted.

[madfloridian]

17. Nikki, how do you feel about their going after Kerry?

Do you see nothing wrong in any of this at all?

NO, probably not.

I don't care who you like...it ain't a matter of LIKE...it's a matter of decency.

[Nikki Stone1]

22. Post #7

Read first. It was posted before your response.

[Doremus]

38. WASTED time with the 50-state strategy? I'm shaking my head here.

Because that's the first time in quite a while I've heard anyone say that.

The last time was the great defender of liberalism, James Carville. :puke:



Personally, I couldn't care less who the PUMA's support. They and their country clubbing network of faux Democrats can kiss my ass. And if that insult pushes them over the cliff into the open arms of their fellow repukes, all the better.

[Nikki Stone1]

42. Look at where the battleground states are.

Lots of money and time was wasted in states that are not going blue or even tend blue. I wish Dean had targeted his spending better. Just my opinion.

[Doremus]

55. That's your opinion. Mine is that a campaign by, of and for the people

should actually attempt to reach people in more than a handful of states. A foolish waste of money? I'll bet the Dems in Indiana and Colorado and Virginia (and others) would disagree with you and your cynical predictions of the outcome thereof.

But you go right ahead and wring your hands over a handful of repuke operative poseurs. They, and you, have become all too transparent.

Just stay out of the way. The rest of us have work to do.

[Nikki Stone1]

67. Virginia's not a waste--it's a state that's turning, especially Northern VA.

Virginia counts as a battleground state. But Wyoming? Come on.

[Doremus]

86. Virginia is in play because of the effort being invested there.

But according to you and the DLC we shouldn't "waste" money on lost causes, remember? You sound just like Carville taking credit for the successes while discrediting the methods used to achieve them. You can't have it both ways.

And that Wyoming office? It's a real budget killer, yeah. :eyes:

[Nikki Stone1]

98. Virginia is in play because of population shifts

30 years ago, the state of Virginia was very Republican, including the military industrial complex Northern Virginia. But in recent years, Northern Virginia has gone from a white, middle class, Republican stronghold to a diverse population, in terms of both ethnicity and social class. Northern Virginia is getting Bluer every year, and is growing to the extent that it is competing for dominance with the rest of the state.

I agree with spending time and money there because the demographic has shifted dramatically, especially in the past 15 years. But this isn't Howard Dean's doing: this is just population patterns.

[justinaforjustice]

64. Your Opinion Very short-Sighted.

The 50 State strategy has been very effective in electing Democrats at every level of government. The increase in the number of Democratic office holders at lower levels increasing the ability of the party to win congressional seats. Without real Democratic majorities in Congress, even a Democratic President won't be able to implement Democratic policies.

Dean has been absolutely brilliant at building the Democratic Party after it was demolished under the DLC leadership by the Clintons. The Clintons, with the help of Carville and his ilk, reduced the party to a corporate fund raising agency for big ticket office holders. They gave no support whatever to local grass roots Democratic organization. Dean, and now Obama, are re-building the Democratic Party at every level.

Dean is not only a brilliant Democrat, but a very fair one. He did nothing to hurt Clinton. What hurt Clinton's campaign was her reliance on the DLC-type strategists who, in some cases, didn't even know the delegate selection rules. They poured Clinton's vast campaign funds into expensive TV ads in populous states, ignoring the caucus states. Her expensive consultants knew nothing about building the ground organizations that win delegates.

She ran a poorly managed DLC-based campaign and lost to a well-organized Democratic Party based campaign. Sexism had nothing whatever to do with it.

[Nikki Stone1]

82. From what I have read, down ticket Democrats are having a hard time right now.

That indicates to me that Dean's strategy is not working and may have been over ambitious.

[madfloridian]

92. That is not true. The DCCC does down ticket race, not Dean. Stop the untruths.

And the DSCC..

[Balderdash]

102. What!?

Then what is the 50 state plan? You're contradicting yourself.

[Nikki Stone1]

103. Thanks for pointing that out, Balderdash.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

111. No...those two committees fund the candidates. House and Senate.

The DNC does not fund house and senate seats except in very close races.

Please stop the accusations. This is awful tonight.

[Balderdash]

117. I'm not accusing.

I'm asking. You need to get a grip because you're the one accusing and you can't seem to handle any debate, at all. Take a fucking breath or something. Sheesh!

[madfloridian]

123. I have been accused 4 times in this thread of not telling the truth.

If you don't know what the committees do, you are the one who needs to go and study and "get a grip."

Don't blame me that you don't know.

[madfloridian]

112. No...those two committees fund the candidates. House and Senate.

The DNC does not fund house and senate seats except in very close races.

Please stop the accusations. This is awful tonight.

[Starry Messenger]

106. Links?

Thank you.

MPK

[wisteria]

68. Making inroads take time. We were never going to turn a majority of red states blue in four years.

We have at least begun the slow process of transition.
The Clinton's never liked Gov. Dean because he wasn't a Clinton person and they tried damn hard to fight against his election. Then, as the primaries were beginning Mr. Carville,a Clinton surrogate from way back, started attacking Dean for being incompetent.
Sadly, I believe the Clinton's are more concerned about holding onto their power then they are about what is best for this country. If we are ever going to get back to being united we need to bring our message into places that up until now have only been hearing one side.

[Nikki Stone1]

90. I agree. But this was a crucial election.

We needed to win this one. Then we could spend time building up the 50-state strategy.

Maybe he tried to do too much, was over ambitious, and underestimated the competition. Remember, before the primaries, it seemed that the Republican brand was in tatters, and the election seemed like a no-lose for Democrats. But Rove has been working this thing since he left the White House and for the first time this election, McCain has a shot. I hope and pray that the American public sees through this Sarah Palin crap, but until they do, I am justifiably antsy. But in my opinion, Dean chose building up the party apparatus over winning this year. That is a real problem for me.

[Starry Messenger]

115. "We needed to win this one."

Yes. I missed the part where we voted. Did we lose?

MPK

[Nikki Stone1]

142. That's just worry talking.

And yes, we still have a chance.

[Chloroplast]

119. Come on...

The 50 state campaign was brilliant! Even if a state is a dyed in the wool red, there are Democrats everywhere. To act as if they only exist to the DNC is they can bring a blue state is ludicrous and elite in nature. Dr. Dean inspired something wonderful in our Party: a chance for ALL voters to feel represented and heard. Even if you consider it a waste of money, the gain in voters is priceless.

[Nikki Stone1]

154. If the popular vote won elections then I would agree with you.

Unfortunately, it is the electoral vote that is crucial. We found that out in 2000.

[karynnj]

121. Without the 50 state strategy, we could not have capitalized

on the 2006 opportunities - there would not have been candidates, who had the support needed earlier so they could be ready.

I know we have to reach out to include the disaffected PUMAs, but that does not mean that we sacrifice people who were team players.

[ieoeja]

148. So winning back the House was a waste of time?

The strategic thinkers who opposed the 50-State Strategy wanted to limit our efforts to House seats they judged vulnerable. Had we won every single one of those seats -- and ZERO of the seats they judged as safe for the Republicans -- then the House would have remained under Republican control.

It is not some matter of opinion that your strategic thinkers were wrong. It is a matter of fact. We won elections where your strategic thinkers said we could not win. And in doing so took over the House.

[Sebastian Doyle]

151. In my experience, there are two kinds of people who don't like Howard Dean

1) Republicans
2) DLC'ers.

Neither group has the best interests of the Democratic party or the American people in mind, so who gives a fuck what they think?

Howard Dean was the ONLY one showing any leadership in this party until Barack Obama showed up. And Obama's campaign - from the small donors and internet organizing to the 50 state strategy - owes a lot to Dr. Dean.

The DNC chair should remain his as long as he's willing to serve, and I can't think of any reason President Obama should replace him.

[dsc]

11. I actually hope Dean is out

because that will only happen if Obama wins (the Democratic President replaces the Chair). As for Pelosi frankly Hillary supporters have every right to be angry with her. She was supposed to be, and claimed to be, neutral in the primary and wasn't. I would have respected her far more if she had endorsed Obama instead of being a sneak.

[w4rma]

13. Can't please everybody, all of the time. Hillary obviously stired up bad vibes towards the end of

the primary in some of her supporters who have stopped supporting what she says for them to do.

[dsc]

16. the way the race went did that all by itself.

the fact is she behaved far better than Gary Hart, Ted Kennedy, or Gerry Brown did all of whom lost more decisively than she did. Given both the closeness of the race and the way Florida and Texas went down she was very fair minded.

[madfloridian]

18. You are excusing them for blaming someone else for their failure.

[dsc]

31. No

Florida was a disgrace as was Texas. A party which has historically supported 1 man one vote and counting all votes threw out both principles when it was expedient for Obama. Florida should have lost half, not all, of its delegates, which was the punishment everyone expected at the time the rules were written. Texas ended up under valuing, in a systematic way, Hispanic voters. While much of that was due to redrawing the state senate seats which we didn't control we should have adjusted the districts in some rational way. Imagine if it was say DC or MS that had had its delegates taken away and if say VA counted white votes 1.5 times as highly as black ones. If Hillary had won due to that, Hell would freeze over before we say party unity.

[madfloridian]

34. That is not true. The rules were done. It said lose ALL delegates.

So you are not telling the truth.

[dsc]

39. sorry but you are dead wrong

the rule was written with a minimum punishment of half the delegates, and all previous enforcement was half the delegates. It should also be noted that not only did Florida and Michigan break the rule so did South Carolina and Nevada (with no penalty it should be noted). The fact is that no one, no one, suggested that a total loss of delegates would be the penalty until it was too late to reverse the change. It should also be noted, that Florida's Democrats went along with the primary date change to get a paper trail for the ballot machines. Something I think was worth the price.

[madfloridian]

59. That is not true. I will be off for a while, but I have all the facts in my journal.

DO NOT accuse me of lying. The rules were set...that is a fact.

I will find it and post it for you.

I am going to update my list again because you do this to me everytime. If I say the sky is effing blue, you argue. I get tired of pointless argument when I am telling the truth. Back to you later, then I will say good by again.

[w4rma]

60. Hillary agreed to those rules until she started grasping at any straw that might help her win.

Don't blame Dean for enforcing the rules that he didn't set. Then the other 48 states would have a problem with him, instead of just the rule breakers in two. Blame everyone who supported breaking the rules.

[dsc]

80. that would include NV and SC

neither of which were punished. I am all for following the rules but I prefer the rules as written and as understood by the potential rule breakers. I teach for a living. Say tomorrow I decide that the first person to talk in my room shall be suspended for 10 days and sight some rule, which I am sure exists, permitting teachers to set such a punishment in 'unusual' circumstances. Just what do you think would happen? The rule as it had been enforced in every single, solitary, past instance was a loss of half of the delegates (and all supers).

[madfloridian]

114. NV and SC were voted in to the pre-window...even Hillary agreed.

[dsc]

149. regardless of who did or didn't agree

they did have their primaries (NV had a caucus) before the rules said they could (though in the order the rules said they could). My point is that the rules, as written, were broken by those states too. If we are going to get technical about rules, they should have been punished as well.

[joshcryer]

71. I love how you're still obsessed with the whole delegate thing.

It shows just how incredibly asinine those posts were back then.

[dsc]

76. I apologize for discussing history

but I am sick to death of people telling bald faced untruths. I guess I am funny that way. Incidently, I didn't bring it up, the OP did. But once the OP did, yes, I am going to insist on telling the truth. Go ahead, search the last say two months. Find one, just one OP I started on this subject.

[madfloridian]

110. I am getting things together since you said I was lying. I found the

report to the senate that states all of it. I have other testimony that makes it clear Florida knew it was breaking the rules and what would happen.

But for now...good by. I don't like being called a liar.

[dsc]

150. as usual you can't even report accurately on what is directly in front of you

I didn't say you lied, I said you were telling untruths, for all I know you believe the untruths which wouldn't make them lies.

[madfloridian]

158. That is a personal attack on me.

I am working up the post I promised you....I will update links and sources. You just attacked me personally.

[Alter Ego]

135. Well, not necessarily...Obama could say "You're good where you are--stay there."

[WCGreen]

19. Well, the president usually get's to pick who is going to be the

head of the Democratic Party.

I mean, Obama, not McCain.

So of course, the HRC crowd would have little to do with the selection. Unless, of course, Obama should lose and then that would be a whole new ball game.

Are HRC supporters hoping for McCain to win just so they can control the party...

[Doremus]

46. I think we have a winner here folks. n/t

[madfloridian]

50. Dean said that the DNC becomes a political arm of the party...

when a Democrat is president. He did not sound like he would be interested. In effect, he filled a vacuum of leadership at the time with various factions angry at each other.

Obama asked him to stay on, but another change will be in February 09. I would like to see him stay, but he can speak out better elsewhere. He has had to mute his voice too much.

[MaineDem]

137. Absolutely correct

I expect Dean will not be Chair come the January DNC meeting.

However, both Clinton and Obama pledged to continue the 50-state strategy.

[Sam Ervin jret]

24. If PUMA people want motivation to vote for Obama, think about the incumbent President Palin our

Hillary will be running against in 2012 or 2016.

The skit on SNL hit the nail on the head as far as I can see. Hillary has worked her whole life to get where she is. She played by the rules. She worked along side her husband to redefine the role of first lady. She then worked on her own to get into the Senate and represent her people. She fought a tough primary race and but for the fact that the American people would not be able to take a black man and a woman on the same ticket at the same time she, I feel, would be the vice presidential choice.

Now a cynical politically motivated move by McCain to get votes of people who think a woman's place is at home pregnant, subservient to her husband has given this woman Palin a chance she herself would have denied herself if she had been around during the era of the suffragettes.

The irony is only outdone by the hypocrisy.

Obama was not my first choice. He was not my second choice. But he damned sure is my choice in November.

[Jennicut]

25. PUMAS can go kiss my white womanly ass, seriously

As a 32 year old woman and mother of 3 and 4 year old girls I am sickened and disgusted by these actions. Its almost like they think all woman are better than any man. Its almost reverse sexism. I voted for Obama and will vote for Obama and Biden. These PUMAS don't realize that they are being used for Rethugicans' gain. Unseating John fing Kerry??? He has supported woman's rights for years and years. I guess I don't get it. A man in power can do just as much good for women as a women in power and in Palin's case she will do much much much worse then a man could. Taking womens' right to choose away is fine cause she is a women, right? I have never seen such idiotic thinking before. Geraldine Ferraro is another one. Ridiculous. If Obama lost the primary, these PUMAS would say Hillary had every right to pick whom she felt comfortable with as a VP. These PUMAS are so obsessive to the point of not being a Democrat any more. Sickening. At least they are a small nutty group. Vote for McCain PUMAS and don't expect a thank you.

[BlooInBloo]

29. Exactly how do people with no power "plan" to do this?

:rofl:

[Hippo_Tron]

32. You do realize that CQ, The Hill, and Politico are like college newspapers for the beltway

Nobody in the real world knows who Heidi Feldman is or gives a shit one way or another. Washington insiders love reading about drama between their own and that's why CQ writes about this garbage. This is the equivalent of a college newspaper talking about people that don't like the student government President.

[madfloridian]

65. I don't agree. I think they are widely read and quoted.

Their voices are heard on air frequently.

They are quite relevant.

[joshcryer]

73. It's an attempt to stir up right wing decisive BS. The very few "Hillary supporters" who act out...

...are mere delusions and incredibly irrelevant.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sebastian Doyle]

48. Reid and Pelosi definitely need to be replaced, but not because the sweatshop shoe gang says so

They apparently don't think those two did enough for Hillary, but the reality is, they haven't done enough for Democrats, period. Hillary as Senate Majority leader? better than Reid, probably. But I'd prefer a non-DLC'er.

As for Howard Dean, he was the first true leader this party had this decade, and he's done a damn fine job. The DNC chair should be his as long as he wants the job. The DLC has been trying to stop him from day one of his Presidential run, and they still won't back off.

Does any SANE person really want Harold Ford or some other Repuke suckup running this party??

[Raineyb]

136. I agree with you 100% here

Reid and Pelosi must go but not because the PUMA punks are sore losers. These two control the legislative agenda. Anything Bush wants should never in any way ever come up for a vote and they put up FISA? Why? They need to go. Get leaders who will stand up to Republicans and put the Democratic agenda forward.

Regards

[Sebastian Doyle]

49. **browser hiccup**

self-delete.

[Lord Helmet]

56. they've got a franchise but aren't cooperating with the home office

[adoraz]

61. "And it is supporting a number of Democratic women running for Congress"

morons. I guess there is a problem with Democratic men... or men in general.

Anyone who can't see what is really going on here is stupid. They vote with their you know what. That's all there is to it.

Just a bunch of bitter women.

[mccain_pwned]

78. I love Dean as a candidate. As chairman he has been horrible

He really dropped the ball. And the current poll results in Florida are a testimony to his failed leadership.

There is no reason that Florida should have been punished at full-rate for voting FOR a paper trail for electronic voting machines. Especially, given the fact that previous states have been docked half in the past.

Dean was dead set on setting a precedent and pushing the issue and had no way of dealing with the outcome. I waited week after week for Dean to show some sort of leadership on the issue to come to some kind of compromise, but he was dead-set on disenfranchising Florida so Iowa and New Hampshire could have ultimate power.

Fuck Iowa and New Hampshire and Fuck Dean.

[Starry Messenger]

118. Links?

cause this is what I'm seeing:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23499719/

MPK

[madfloridian]

120. What a great 34th post. You just f***ed everyone.

Wow, not many new folks do that so well.

I must have struck a nerve.

[Sebastian Doyle]

153. Fuck Florida.

Seriously, how many elections does one corrupt, Bush Crime Family owned state get to fuck up anyway?

[polichick]

79. They can have Reid and Pelosi, but we're keeping Dean.

[FVZA_Colonel]

88. I'd actually like to see Senator Clinton as the Senate Majority Leader.

Considering our current one would be better classified as an invertebrate, she's exactly what we need.

[madfloridian]

113. She will get whatever she wants.

:shrug:

[AZBlue]

127. It's pretty funny that they believe they are in charge of the party.

What hubris!

[mmonk]

128. Anyone who votes for McCain/Palin is a righwing republican.

They can lie all they want about who they are. They are my enemy for life.

[AtomicKitten]

130. To the Greatest Page.

This malignant growth of the party seems to be always plotting a coup.

Thanks for putting this important information out there. Forewarned is fair-warned.

K&R

[SIMPLYB1980]

131. Rove is laughing at all of you in this thread.

[AmyCamus]

133. Huh?

"Where I live it is now impossible to hold a decent conversation about the election. The harm done is enormous, and the truth has never been admitted to....that there was an honest and true primary in which rules were scrupulously followed."

So, you don't live in Florida after all?

[amborin]

141. Pushover Pelosi should be replaced n/t

[timeoutofjoint]

144. I tend to agree.

[Overseas]

145. I will oppose any attempt to remove Dean and withdraw my support. He has been great.

I have loved the 50-state strategy. I knew there were a lot more Democrats out there than our party leadership allowed.

I hated the DLC approach of giving up on "the Red States"-- just letting the Republicans take them all.

Disgusting and infuriating and so very short sighted. If and when the US abandons the electoral college, we will have ceded tons of votes by ignoring them. Thank God Dean and Obama got to know millions of swing voters and introduced them to our Democratic core values.

And now we see that indeed, there are millions of voters who do not like the Republican agenda and are willing to ignore fake culture wars and vote for the economy and ecological health of the country, rather than the much hyped Guns, God & Gays.

The DLC are too much like Republicans. Too much like "Let the Big Boys Handle This."

[democrattotheend]

147. Delegates are ALWAYS pressured to support the nominee

One of my coworkers said that in 2004 he had the job of trying to convince the Kucinich delegates from Washington State to vote for Kerry when they wanted to vote for Kucinich despite being released. Typically there are floor whips who try to get state delegations delivered unanimously when possible. I kind of agree that they should have let the roll call go on, but I think doing it the way they did it was Clinton's choice as much as Obama's. In many respects it was a winning outcome for her...she got to look magnanimous and got herself into many of the headlines about Obama being formally nominated. I am not complaining about that at all, but I don't think she was pressured to do it...like I said, it was a win for her as much as for Obama in terms of helping to restore her standing in the party and set herself up for a future run.

[SoCalDem]

152. Obama should just offer Hillary Sec of State, and as the head of the party, he calls the shots

after he wins..

The Clintons' time is o v e r ...

the DLC needs to shrivel up and go away..sorry harold Ford:)

Reid & Pelosi may end up getting pushed out, but it won't be because Clintons want it to be so..

[HeraldSquare212]

156. Right, because politicians accrue such power by losing.

[quaker bill]

159. Bottom line

Obama wins and Dean keeps the job for as long as he cares to, and the DLC gets used to dealing with it.