What would you like to hear Obama and Biden say when asked about abortion at the debates?

[girl gone mad]

I've spent many hours debating the issue of abortion with family and friends, in online forums and even at protests.

So I cringed when I heard Obama's response to the question "When do you think life begins" at the Saddleback forum. Obama's replies, "That's above my paygrade" and "women don't make these decisions lightly", represent just the kind of weak-willed talk that's caused us to lose political ground on this debate over the past decade.

Democratic candidates kinda sorta believe that women should have "choice". Republican candidates are strongly convinced that abortion is murder and we should have a "culture that values life".


I'd like to share the lines of attack that have gotten me the furthest when debating this topic with others. We definitely are not going to sway the fundies, who will twist and distort every point and fact and argument to suit their own anti-women agenda. But with a stronger defense of our position, we will start to persuade many moderates who are sometimes drawn in by the strong convictions of the anti-abortionists.


I would love to hear Obama make a case along these lines when asked:

"There is no clear consensus on when life begins. Many people believe that life begins at conception. Some religions teach that life begins even earlier than that, and others think life begins later on at the point of viability or some other developmental marker.

I think this is a religious and philisophical debate. I don't believe that we should be talking about taking away people's rights and putting the government in charge of what is, essentially, a medical and religious decision. You're on a slippery slope once you start to go down that path."

When Biden is asked in the debate I would like to hear him say this:

"If my daughter were raped, first of all I'd want some time alone in a room with the guy, if you know what I mean. Secondly, I want her to have the freedom to decide what course of action was best. I would suport her in any decision she made. I would not want the government to force her to carry a pregnancy to term and go through labor and delivery if that was not her choice."


Experience has led me to believe that a defense focused on preserving an existing right, tying pro-choice to religious freedom, and reminding people of what's at stake if abortion is outlawed (women being forced to give birth against their will) are the most effective tactics.

I hope that some of you will share your thoughts.

[whistle]

1. Standard line that it is a woman's right to choose and it is the law of the land

...that's it and then move on to the next question

[margotb822]

11. Yes, it's not about abortion, but choice

Don't get dragged into a debate.

[Can o Beans]

41. NO - Drop the choice argument - it's a loser

Drew Westen, a psychologist and faculty at Emory, addresses this in his recent book. The choice argument, he notes, made some sense in the 1960s and 1970s when women were far less equal to men than they are today, and were constantly being repressed. In order to evoke the needed emotions that will motivate the voter of the 2000s, a stronger moral appeal is needed.

Here's what Westen recommends - it appeals much more strongly to the emotions of the female voter (note: I am paraphrasing, and thus will not do as good a job as the author)...go for the jugular by invoking the rapist/child molester argument:

"My opponent, Governor Palin, opposes abortion even in the case of rape. I and the American people find her position to be disgusting and reprehensible. In fact, by taking such a position, she places the rights of rapists above the rights of their victims. Under the Palin position, rapists could simply decide who should be the mother of their child, mercilessly attack their victim, and the Palin administration would then force the woman to carry the baby to term. Governor Palin is not only radically outside the mainstream on this issue...she's in favor of a Rapist's Bill of Rights..."

"Governor Palin's radical right wing position also dictates that minors must seek parental permission before seeking an abortion. Imagine the completely untenable situation this puts a young girl in, who has been molested by her stepfather, and becomes pregnant. Not only does the molester have rights above and beyond those of the victim, but after such an attack, the victim must then seek the permission of the vile person who disgustingly betrayed her trust in order to abort a fetus created through incest."

"It is clear that Governor Palin lacks the moral standing to become vice president, given her proclivity to support the rights of rapists and molesters while denying American women the right to choose."

THIS is the argument that the left should be pursuing...(thanks to Dr Westen).

[margotb822]

42. This argument is too narrow.

This argument reminds me of the movie Thank You for Smoking. In it, the lobbyist was saying that he didn't have to prove himself right, he just had to prove the other guy wrong.

The reson I hesitate is that it leaves room for people to start encroaching on the right to choose. I know Palin doesn't, but most people do support in the case of rape/incest. They can easily say, "Ok, we can allow those, but we can't allow choice."

If we start defining times when it's ok, we've already lost because we're giving up our right to choose.

[msongs]

2. skip the obama blather just say -I think it is for a woman to choose nt nt

[girl gone mad]

5. I agree that it should be that easy.

One of the problems for us is that some men and even a few women resent this line because they think it gives women a special right to be irresponsible. I have heard from many moderates that this particular argument irritates them, and I think it may subconsciously push them away.

[McCamy Taylor]

3. They need to say "My opponent says he/she wants to overturn Roe v. Wade"

And then challenge their opponent to deny it.

THAT is what they need to say. And then they move on to deaths from back alley abortions. Be ready with statistics about deaths of women from Latin American countries where abortion is illegal. That is the last thing that McSame and Miz Scarlett want to talk about.

[bunkerbuster1]

31. Overturning Roe is incredibly unpopular with the nation.

It's what keeps the "pro-life" movement going, but most Americans don't want it overturned.

[blondeatlast]

36. Exactly. nt

[RollWithIt]

4. We need to redouble our efforts to decrease teenage preganancies....

Straight for the heart.

[Jade Fox]

6. Someone needs to ask why right to life organizations are also....

trying to prevent access to birth control. Are they anti-abortion or anti-sex?

Anyone truly desiring to end abortions would be birth control's biggest advocate.

[mwb970]

26. Maybe they think life begins *before* conception.

Like during dinner or the movie.

[elkston]

7. Just a simple, "A woman's body is her own, and she has the right to choose".

No further explanation is needed. Obama's mistake at Saddleback was feeling he had to explain why he felt that way. Only offer that part if asked. Otherwise remain quiet.

...and Obama's answer at Saddleback to the life question should have been: "I don't know when life begins. Only God does". (even though he pretty much said that, just too figuratively).

Obama can answer quickly and directly. I've seen him do it like in the O'Rielly interview. He needs to realize that the debates are prime time and no meandering will do. I have a feeling he has been working on this.

[liberalmuse]

8. I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Once you believe that, the discussion is over. It's her choice, and what comes if it is none of my goddamned business.

[MISSDem]

9. What was it Bill Clinton taught us -

safe, legal and rare - was that it?

[cui bono]

10. That no one is "for" abortion, but it's about a woman's right to privacy and

control over her own body. It's about women's rights, not about when life begins. I think that the anti-choicers are framing this as them being pro-life and defining it as when life begins and that is a losing proposition for us in a lot of ways.

It's really about a woman's right to privacy. It's no one else's right to determine what a woman has to do with her own body.

If they insist on saying "pro-life" then ask them if they are for the death penalty. Ask them if why the anti-choice party claims to be "pro-life" yet doesn't vote for legislation to aid those in need. Ask them why, if they don't want abortions, they don't advocate sex education and giving out condoms. Ask them why doctors are being murdered by people who claim to be "pro-life".

There's a few thoughts. I just sort of spewed them out in this post, I hope it's coherent.

[girl gone mad]

15. You were coherent.

I think they've already managed to re-frame the debate and a lot of people in the center have been persuaded to believe that life begins at conception, which is why I wish we would remind them that there is no consensus and the government shouldn't interfere in religious matters.

Talking about the notion that life might begin even earlier than conception reminds voters that other forms of birth control are also at stake if Roe v. Wade is overturned.

[cui bono]

21. And if life begins earlier than conception

there's going to be a whole bunch of frustrated religious males! No more pleasuring thy self since that would soon become illegal.

:o

[creeksneakers2]

12. I get good response when I say

A woman's reproductive system is the most private thing there is. Its a felony to trespass there. I can't be part of the government invading a woman's privacy like that.

Many people are distrustful of government power and respond to that. Others feel respect for a woman's privacy is essential, especially when what is at stake is brought up.

[Iris]

17. "Its a felony to trespass there."

That's a great point.

[girl gone mad]

29. Yeah, that's a powerful argument..

and it goes to the point I was hoping to make.

I'd like to see Democrats go on the attack on this issue, rather than playing defense. I can't tell you how many people I've met who call themselves "pro-life", but when pressed on their views are actually pro-choice. They are opposed to giving the government power over reproductive rights and uncertain of exactly what constitutes federally protected life.

I really hope that we can re-frame this issue in a manner that wins us more voters. Saying "my body my choice" just doesn't cut it anymore, because too many people view that stance as defending irresponsible behavior. I've spoken to men my age who think it amounts to giving women special rights that men don't get. They complain that a woman is free to sleep around without consequence, while if it were a man, he could be stuck paying child support for 18 years. I know that's a ridiculous argument, but I hear so often that I don't think we can ignore it. We have to push back and remind these guys that ending Roe v. Wade is a matter of government invasion into privacy and allowing the government making medical decisions.

[Bubbha Jo]

13. I'd like to hear them say its none of their business cause they aren't capable of pregnancy

but I doubt that is what they will say.

Or how about they'll discuss outlawing abortions when everyone else must take the advice of the Christian Scientists for their medical decisions....

Otherwise, they can say just the usual stuff: No one likes abortion but it's a personal decision already regulated at later stages of pregnancy. And yes, they'd like to see a reduction in the numbers but the logical way to do that is by ensuring all adequate birth control is available to those who need it and by practical sex education in school as to the dangers involved.

[Imagevision]

14. If the Govt. says you must have it, they should support it until legal age

Of course the government would like to have it back to use in it's military when it reaches the "legal age"

[leftstreet]

16. "It Has Nothing To Do With The Price of Gas" n/t

[napi21]

18. I LOVED the way Biden answered that question on the Sun AM

Show last week. He was first asked when life begins. He answered "As a Catholic, I believe it begins at conception." Then he was asked about his support for Roe. He answered (paraphrasing) "Look, as a Catholic, I believe it's a sin and is wrong, BUT the US is a secular Country, and our people bollow many different religions, and some none at all. We have freedom of religion under the Constitution, and I have mo more right to force MY beliefs on anyone else any more than they have a right to force their beliefs on me."

I may have a biased opinion here, because he said exactly what I've been saying for many years, but I'll be thrilled if he just repeats the answer he gave on that show.

[Missouri Girl]

39. I totally agree!

I was thinking that was the way that I would phrase that myself before Barack went to Saddleback. I don't know that he personally believes that life begins at conception like Joe does. But, I think he is modest enough to know that he can't definitely say one way or the other. I know that is what he was sort of alluding to, but Biden hit the nail on the head. He placates the pro-life crowd by saying he believes as they do, yet not going to infringe upon anyone else's rights and beliefs.

[quakerboy]

19. Obama: "It dosnt matter what I feel, what matters is

what the Constitution says. As President I WILL uphold the Constitution even if that is inconvenient. That said, what I feel is that (insert convincing explanation here)"

Biden: "Abortion you say. Lets get real. When Reps Rule, abortion goes up. When Dems Govern, abortion goes down. Which do you prefer?"


Of course, these are my preferred message. They would need to be fleshed out with facts, examples, etc.

[Princess Turandot]

20. I'll go against the flow..

I agree with you, in the Biden response at least, although I wonder if reference to rape is somehow taboo.

The reason that I agree with you is that when polled about about abortion rights, ~25-35% of Americans seem to consistently respond 'yes' when polled to abortion at least being legal for in the 'bad' situations: rape, incest, life of mother. The questions are worded in variations of this: "Which of these positions best represents your views about abortion? A woman should be able to get an abortion if she wants one in the first three months of pregnancy, no matter what the reason. Abortion should be legal ONLY in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's health is endangered or when the pregnancy results from rape or incest. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances, even if the mother's life is in danger."

I think that these are people who view abortion as a 'remedy'. They don't think of it first as either a moral issue or a constitutional right. I think that it's important to remind them of what the practical impact of the Republicans' view on abortion would be. "Do you want your daughter to bear her rapist's spawn? That's what McCain/Palin are demanding that she do", is what does that for them, not a reference to the Bill of Rights. The important thing here is that abortion remain legal, not that everyone is required to think about it in the same terms. And while some might say that such positioning threatens the legality of abortion i.e. only do it for the 'bad' problems, from a practical point it doesn't, since a Democratic president is not going to attempt to limit existing abortion rights.

Poll stuff here:
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

[jillan]

22. Biden already has the perfect answer on this (imho)

He says he was raised a catholic, went to catholic schools and he believes that life starts - I don't recall exactly when he said, because I'm not catholic - but when the soul enters the body, like at 7 weeks or something.

BUT he said that is his opinion and he has no right to enforce his opinion on anyone.
That it is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, her clergy...and it's none of his business.

I like it because he agrees with the religious voters but will still stand up for women's rights and believes that Roe v Wade should be left alone.

btw-Biden is getting heat out there on this, religious fanatics are saying how can he call himself a Christian but still believe in abortion.
Simple. Biden believes in privacy.

[medicswife]

33. He did a really good job the other day, mentioning Thomas Aquinas and "quickening". nt

[jillan]

40. Thanks for knowing what I was talking about!

:P

[tinrobot]

23. I like what he said to Rick Warren at the Saddleback forum.

He said he was pro-choice, but he also wanted to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies as well.

[goletian]

24. id like for them to study a little developmental biology and put all those "prolifers" to shame

for holding false beliefs. a little research on the subject will show you life does not begin at conception. for one, there is life in the two gametes that unite to start the conception process, for two, the process of individuation after conception doesnt complete for several days (weeks) -- twinning can still take place way after conception. really, life does not begin at conception, this is a fact. obama and biden should say that scientifically, life doesnt begin at conception, but the question on when to give human rights to the unborn is a philosophical one, not a scientific or factual one, its subjective. i think roe v wades qualification of viability is the most reasonable, but if they want to say it should be after full human singularity is achieved, this would be acceptable i suppose, as its not entirely arbitrary like that ridiculous conception bs.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. I agree with you

The point is to put some room between their own personal philosophical and religious beliefs and their beliefs about existing rights and the role of government in such personal philosophical and religious beliefs. Ought the government be deciding this?

I also think it's smart to stress working toward needing fewer abortions by increasing education and availability of contraceptives. Also by making all of a woman's choices more feasible. There are lots of common sense things we can agree with the anti-choice people (or most of them, anyway - forget the Palin types, they're beyond the pale) on - and we ought to get down to working on that, together.

Can't happen when choices are completely limited by an intrusive and punitive government.

[AtomicKitten]

27. That they are pro-choice. Period.

[WheelWalker]

28. That it is the right, and only the right, of each individual woman carrying a child ....

to make that decision. Based upon Griswold, et al. v. Connecticut (1965) and Roe v. Wade (1973), it is a constitutional right. It is the law of the land.

[bunkerbuster1]

30. Where is the "C-word?" I never hear it.

That C-word being, of course, criminalization.

When you make these lamebrained "pro-lifers" own up to what they'd actually DO to enforce their silly efforts to "ban abortion," they go limp. See also South Dakota.

Lots of people want some kinds of abortions to stop--late-term ones, "abortions of convenience," what have you. It's a sucker's game to get drawn up into those conversations.

Make it about CRIMINALIZATION. that's the official Republican party line--they want to make this ILLEGAL, and the only way to enforce such vile crap is through the criminal code.

Obama's gone there before, he needs to do it more often.

Palin/McCain are defenseless on this--they'd be stuck with 25% of the vote if it were hammered home often enough.

[BrainStorm]

32. We unequivocally support Roe v Wade and a woman's right to choose. We also

support free prenatal care and food stamps for poor single mothers.

[TransitJohn]

34. the Party line.

"Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare."

[Madam Mossfern]

35. What needs to b emphasized strongly

is that if you make abortion illegal, it will NOT stop abortions. It will drive women to back alleys to be butchered. I remember when abortion was illegal, the wealthy could leave the country for a safe procedure while the poorer and average women went the illegal route risking their lives and their future fertility, and risked arrest as well as any doctor who assisted.

I had a very heated discussion about this at work. It is up to the woman, period.
Banning abortion will not save lives, it will take even more.

[Radical Activist]

37. What you think Obama should say is essentially what he did say.

Except that he said it better.

Saying its above his pay grade is just another way of saying, "There is no clear consensus on when life begins."

[Muttocracy]

38. I'd be interested to hear the GOP plan to eliminate rape

I can eliminate most instances of needing an abortion via abstinence and birth control, but not that one.

If my rights are violated by a rapist, I should not have to bear a rapist's child. That is further punishment to me, and not a fair background for a child. And an exception for rape is NOT enough - the burden of proof cannot be for me to prove that my rights were violated, or else I'm considered a criminal. I shouldn't have to go to court if I don't want to, and I certainly shouldn't have to rely on a jury convicting, and what if the rapist is never caught? I can't have my rights depend on that process, so abortion has to be legal.

I think they should emphasize that they don't impose their beliefs on others, privacy rights, etc. Libertarians should be more for Obama-Biden.